Strongest female in the buffyverse

[buffylover]

^^^ Multi is allowed !


Basically who is the strongest female in the buffyverse.
I have to say Buffy, Willow and Glory maybe illyria

[ubi4soft]

Illyria and Glory, powerful creatures that a human could not contain (but were they females?)

IMO Willow has no power, she drains off energy from what's around her (Rack in S6, from Giles also the "different charged magic" which helped restoring to her normal self), in 'Get it done' from Kennedy, the 'goddess' moment from the scythe, so in a way I consider her some kind of a 'leech', or it's just me not liking the magic, or the magic will always have consequences, whatever.

And I think it's possible that using external "damaged" resources could lead to Willow's downfall.

[buffylover]

Willow/On the show Illyria, when she was at full power in Fred's shell, powers included super human strength far more greater than most if any character on both series and LIMITED time shifting abilities. All things I'm sure Willow can achieve. Witchcraft is connected to nature and the earth and the earth is pretty much Willow's weapon. She can draw on it's very energy and essence to perform powerful magic. Remember in her prime, Illyria needed an army to destroy the earth Willow didn't.

Willow has no limits in the comics,come on she summond 3 godesses to help the fight wiht Twilight.
But did anyone think of Buffy/Willow together.Willow apparently channeling magic through Buffy.even she uncouisness.That has to be a powerful force.
Willow in Time of Your Life" Dark Willow is powerful, alive and youthful hundreds of years in the future.the show Illyria, when she was at full power in Fred's shell, powers included super human strength far more greater than most if any character on both series and LIMITED time shifting abilities. All things I'm sure Willow can achieve. Witchcraft is connected to nature and the earth and the earth is pretty much Willow's weapon. She can draw on it's very energy and essence to perform powerful magic.

Personally I thick Buffy can outrun Illyria, if she use her essences emotion ,It quoted in the show every time Buffy gets angry she always outruns her enemies stronger then her.
Emotion is an essences of power..Plus she got the scthy she like UBER Buffy.

[Vampmaster]

Honestly, I like to think of Jasmine, Glory and Illyria the three Goddesses as the most powerful beings on the show with Willow being a close fourth and below the level of these three Goddesses.

Originally Posted by buffylover

Remember in her prime, Illyria needed an army to destroy the earth Willow didn't.

I believe that Illyria needed an army to rule the earth not destroy it and that was only because the earth consisted of much stronger old ones than the demons and supernatural forces in existence now . I imagine Illyria in her prime would have less problems now adays especially since in "after the fall." we are told that Illyria nearly destroyed not the world, but the flow of time itself.

Originally Posted by buffylover

Willow has no limits in the comics,come on she summond 3 godesses to help the fight wiht Twilight.

I need to read Retreat once more to be sure, but if I remember correctly Willow didn't summon them independently rather they were summoned by Oz and his family so that they would take their magical abilities from them in exchange for protection. At most she simply awakened an already active force.

Originally Posted by buffylover

Personally I thick Buffy can outrun Illyria, if she use her essences emotion ,It quoted in the show every time Buffy gets angry she always outruns her enemies stronger then her.
Emotion is an essences of power..Plus she got the scthy she like UBER Buffy.

I'm sorry but I think Illyria especially pre Time Bomb would kick Buffy's ass. It's implied that she is in a similar league to Glory who we know could kick Buffy's ass but was slowed down by the humanity in her because of Ben, and her general arrogance. I think Illyria would have the intelligence to just take her out there and then

[buffylover]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

I need to read Retreat once more to be sure, but if I remember correctly Willow didn't summon them independently rather they were summoned by Oz and his family so that they would take their magical abilities from them in exchange for protection. At most she simply awakened an already active force.



I'm sorry but I think Illyria especially pre Time Bomb would kick Buffy's ass. It's implied that she is in a similar league to Glory who we know could kick Buffy's ass but was slowed down by the humanity in her because of Ben, and her general arrogance. I think Illyria would have the intelligence to just take her out there and then

Think the summoning was a joint effort by angry Buffy and angry Willow.

If Illyria was the big bad in angel season 5 she would be dead, Plus Buffy has the scyth , I personally think Buffy can kick Illyria ass , when she angry , I recall Buffy outsmarted Glory, in blood ties and tough love. Also if Buffy wasn't that powerful why would the monks give the key to Buffy. Her experiences went up, she always fights someone (big bads) stronger than her, and she always outsmarts them.

[Vampmaster]

Ah that's good to know, but the demons were focused in on them all as they had given them their powers right?

Oh don't get me wrong, I consider Buffy to be the best overall fighter in the Buffyverse due to her ability to get to know her enemies and use their weaknesses against them. Examples of this can easily be seen, if you compare Buffy's first fight with her in "Out of my Mind" and her final fight in "The Gift."

But in terms of raw physical ability I think Illyria has her beat though Buffy would certainly have more of a chance against post "Time Bomb" Illyria than she would against pre "Time Bomb" Illyria. The other thing to remember about Illyria is that in addition to this great strength she is also quite intelligent able to take the feelings people have towards eachother.

Add to that the ingenuity she inherited from Fred, which Fred demonstrated on multiple occasions such as the device she made in "Fredless." Her ability to remain hidden and free the gang from the influence of Jasmine are key examples of this and something which IMO makes Illyria much more likely to be able to take out Buffy than Glory

But like I said as an actual fighter Buffy is probably the best of the verse as she has been know to best those overwhelmingly bigger than her, but in terms of raw power I am afraid Jasmine, Illyria and Glory all have her beat

[Nina]

Jasmine of course, the woman was a power that be. Which are pretty much the highest ranked creatures in the 'verse.

Glory is the other goddess, but if I compare her to Jasmine... Jasmine looks like she is better/higher. Only in the brain department Jasmine already kicks Glory's ass but also her powers were much more impressing.

After that Illyria as one of the most powerful pure demons the world ever knew. Even without a big part of her powers she is incredible strong. To use her own words:

Vampire: "Are you a slayer?"
Illyria: "You wish."

Says enough to me.

Followed by Willow, who is maybe not owning the power but for now I count the powers she uses as hers.

And after that the slayers and vampires. I think that from the bunch Darla or Buffy is the best warrior. The first has much more experience and is a smarter fighter and Buffy is stronger.




And I would like to add Cordy. They never explored her powers, but we know she had some new kickass tricks after she became a demon. Not sure where she would belong, but I would certainly consider her stronger than slayers and vampires. If she can control those powers.

[vampmogs]

I picked Willow.

In s5 she was the only person ever to hurt Glory and she just got more and more powerful as the series progressed. In season 8 the solicitation for her one-shot implies she may not even be human anymore. In Retreat Willow wonders if she's just become this "force" and we've seen how immense her power has become. In Grave Willow also states that "no mortal person has ever had this much power, ever" and she's just got stronger since then. I think we’re just going to learn that she’s become more powerful than you could even imagine and it’s probably gonna come with a massive price.

I believe now that she could totally demolish both Glory and Illyria. She’s incredibly powerful. The only other female (or character) who could give her a run for her money would be Jasmine IMHO. And that's only because Jasmine might be able to mind-control Willow. Jasmine, Glory and Illryia’s power is their strength but Willow doesn’t even have to engage them in hand-to-hand combat. Super strength is pretty useless when a witch can just teleport you away, control your limbs with a wave of her hand or blast powerful energy at you.

After Willow I chose

2. Jasmine
3. Glory/Illyria
4. Buffy

[buffylover]

This is mine
1)Willow
2)Buffy/Glory
3)Illyria

I didn’t think jamine, was that dominant, Glory and Illyria were more powerful.

As well as I remember Glory killed all of them men in Spiral , in seconds and punched through the strongest forced field by willow. And a truck hit her; I didn't even slow her down. One punched of Glory blasted Buffy all across the room.And every time Glory got hit she didn't even felt it.

Willow is the most powerful, female in the buffyverse like what, vampmogs said.




@Vampmaster , I do agree with you what you said, I think she will try her hardest to come up on top. I think Buffy can kill jamine, Angel and connor did so.

[BAF]

Going by pure raw strength.It's a toss up for me between Glory and Illyria.

[Nina]

Originally Posted by buffylover

@Vampmaster , I do agree with you what you said, I think she will try her hardest to come up on top. I think Buffy can kill jamine, Angel and connor did so.

You also said this to me by giving me rep points. But I don't understand your argument to be honest.

Because Angel and Connor killed Jasmine together, Buffy can do to? Not only do you seriously underrate Connor and Angel who are both incredible good warriors and both capable of beating Buffy on a good day. And the team of them is of course much stronger than Buffy alone. So if Angel and Connor together kill somebody, it's not logical to say that Buffy can do it alone.

But Jasmine was also totally kicking Angel's ass and throwing around cars. And that after she was damaged and lost a big part of her power. She didn't saw Connor's fatal attack coming because she trusted him, but in a fight he would be nowhere.

But like I said, this was all after her real name was said. Before that she could heal herself the second she was hurt if she wanted to, the magic she used when she was in Cordelia was from a high level (and that was not even her own body), put everybody under a spell the second they look at her, control bodies and use their eyes to see everything... to not even start about her incredible physical power she never used before 'Peace Out'because she didn't had to.

This woman was a Power that Be, one of the original rulers of the world... even before the Old Ones (Illyria, Wolf, Ram and Hart.)... the creatures who still rule the world in a certain way.

So I disagree that a slayer (nobody actually, but certainly not a slayer or vampire.) is stronger than Jasmine.

[Vampmaster]

Originally Posted by Nina

Jasmine of course, the woman was a power that be. Which are pretty much the highest ranked creatures in the 'verse.

Glory is the other goddess, but if I compare her to Jasmine... Jasmine looks like she is better/higher. Only in the brain department Jasmine already kicks Glory's ass but also her powers were much more impressing.

Where exactly has it been stated that a Power That Be trumps a full fledged Goddess? I'm not saying it doesn't by the way, it's a genuine question

As for Jasmine's powers being more impressive than Glory's I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Jasmine's power lay in her ability to manipulate those around her into worshipping her based on her appearance. However since the show showed us that vampires with the exception of Angel were immune to her abilities there is a very strong argument that she needs a being to have a human soul to control them. Something I doubt either Glory or Illyria have.

And if you measure their physical strength well we have seen Glory bring a whole building down simply by stamping while the most we saw Jasmine do was chuck a car at Angel a feat I'm sure a goddess who can collapse a building could also repeat.

Originally Posted by Nina

After that Illyria as one of the most powerful pure demons the world ever knew. Even without a big part of her powers she is incredible strong. To use her own words:

Vampire: "Are you a slayer?"
Illyria: "You wish."

Says enough to me.

While I agree that Illyria was more powerful than a slayer. You should remember that Illyria wasn't exactly known for being humble

Originally Posted by Nina

And after that the slayers and vampires. I think that from the bunch Darla or Buffy is the best warrior. The first has much more experience and is a smarter fighter and Buffy is stronger.

I'd have to disagree with you about Darla being a smarter fighter than Buffy. We have seen Buffy display her ingenuity and ability to use her surroundings to her advantage during a fight as early as season 2, when Spike comments that it is this very smartness that allows her to win while watching her fight in "Halloween." Other examples of this can be seen in her ability to come head to head with foes much more powerful than she is such as Glory, Adam or even Dark Willow. In all of these situations she has been seen to use other things such as the power of her friends, the power of weapons etc to her advantage as a way of thinking out of the box.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

I picked Willow.

I believe now that she could totally demolish both Glory and Illyria. She’s incredibly powerful. The only other female (or character) who could give her a run for her money would be Jasmine IMHO. And that's only because Jasmine might be able to mind-control Willow. Jasmine, Glory and Illryia’s power is their strength but Willow doesn’t even have to engage them in hand-to-hand combat. Super strength is pretty useless when a witch can just teleport you away, control your limbs with a wave of her hand or blast powerful energy at you.

Yes, but I think pre-time bomb Illyria which is the strongest we have seen Illyria at has a lot more to support her than her strength. For a start in addition to her great strength she is also incredibly fast something, which also applies to Glory. What is to stop them from speeding up to and snapping Willow's neck before she has the chance to conjure up a spell many of which can take time? In addition to this pre time bomb Illyria has her time alerting abilities which again might provide her with the time needed to stop Willow. And of course she has her dimension travelling abilities, which she could arguably use to drag her into a dimension where she is even more powerful to fight Willow

Originally Posted by Nina

You also said this to me by giving me rep points. But I don't understand your argument to be honest.

Because Angel and Connor killed Jasmine together, Buffy can do to? Not only do you seriously underrate Connor and Angel who are both incredible good warriors and both capable of beating Buffy on a good day. And the team of them is of course much stronger than Buffy alone. So if Angel and Connor together kill somebody, it's not logical to say that Buffy can do it alone.

I don't think Conor could beat Buffy on a good day we were already shown in Season 4 that Connor couldn't even hold his own against Faith, who many will argue is weaker than Buffy, but I do agree that saying Buffy can beat Jasmine because Conor and Angel did isn't a good argument.

Buffylover you also need to remember that Conor was releated to Jasmine and she is said to be weaker towards those she is related to. This is why Cordelia's blood in addition to her own worked in showing the others her true face.

[buffylover]

But strength isn't everything; there are ways to overcome it. Like Buffy has better speed and technical , then Angel and Connor, and her experience is greater because Buffy always verse someone stronger than her , Glory , Caleb and the first evil, angel just verse W&H.
Buffy quickly figured it out after two fights, the way to beat Caleb wasn't meeting strength with strength. Physically Caleb was stronger then Buffy, but strength isn't everything, there are ways to overcome it. It’s proven that Buffy doesn’t use her strength she uses her environment, essences of speed, technical and durability skills.
You said that jasmine was a Power that Be, older than Illyria and W&H ETC, The first is way stronger then jasmine , and Buffy killed Caleb (with the power of the original evil in his veins). The First Evil is the absolute source and embodiment of all that is evil. Older than demons, Old Ones. Even Gods.

Also Willow hurted Glory , and she wasn’t even peek of her power.

[buffylover]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

And if you measure their physical strength well we have seen Glory bring a whole building down simply by stamping while the most we saw Jasmine do was chuck a car at Angel a feat I'm sure a goddess who can collapse a building could also repeat.
.

She pull willow apartment wall of.

[Ahm Shere]

I chose two. I chose Glory and Buffy.

Since I don't watch Angel, nor do I ever plan on watching it, all of what I say is soley based on what I have seen on BtvS.

Glory is a God. She has the ability to knock down and kill people with one punch. She has strength that even Buffy doesn't have. She's feared by other Gods. Why else would they banish her? She's quite blatently the strongest of said Gods. However, Glory does have a flaw: Ben. Ben is her weakspot, which makes her vulnerable, which is something that is bad if you want to be all high and mighty powerful.

Buffy is the Slayer. She's has strength and abilities that reguar humans can only dream about. Fair enough, Willow is a witch, and a powerful one at that, but given the chance, a final showdown between Buffy and Willow, Buffy would win. She has faced people much stronger and powerful that Willow, she died twice, yet she's still alive. That's pretty amazing. OK, so Willow brought her back to life, which is a pretty amazing feat in itself, but that is only because the...uh..."powers that be" allowed her to, because she died of mystical causes.

A final showdown between Glory and Buffy: Glory would win, I have no doubt about it.

Plus, Glory rocks And she had that funky mind control "make-me-crazy" thing going on...

[buffylover]

Originally Posted by Ahm Shere

. She's feared by other Gods. Why else would they banish her?

Good point , i forgot about that I don't hardely watch Angel aswell , because i perfer Buffster.

[Phrenesia_]

Buffy can't win against Illyria pre-time bomb or against Glory withour her Ben-malus. Buffy is an excellent fighter, but she is no match for a god/ess. If Buffy could defeat every adversary, the series would be pretty boring.
Jasmine is pretty difficult, because her main power isn't hand to hand combat, but manipulation of mind. If it was just a physical fight, Buffy might have a chance, perhaps, on a good day.

[Jack]

For pure strength it was Illyria, pre-timebomb. She was by far the most powerful big bad or MOTW on either show.

As for Emotionally, it certainly isnt Illyria.

I would say Faith, because of all shes been through and she keeps coming out fighting, shes really grown since we first see her. Predominantly because of Angels guidance.

Dawn, I'm really not a big fan of a dawn, but I think in season 7 she holds her own as one of the stronger females.

[Nina]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

Where exactly has it been stated that a Power That Be trumps a full fledged Goddess? I'm not saying it doesn't by the way, it's a genuine question

Of course Jasmine is the only source we have, but since there is little reason to doubt her;

The Powers that Be were the first creatures ever. Neutral creatures who walked the earth and left when evil came into the world.

And who says that Glory is a real goddess? Illyria is also called god of gods, still it turns out that Illyria is nothing but a very strong old one/pure demon. Since Glory is evil, she is probably one of those kind of creatures as well. Godlike, but not the real gods. The Powers that Be are portrayed as the gods of the 'verse... they even have higher beings (read: angels -Cordelia-) working for them. The control the world to make sure that balance they once knew can be restored.

As for Jasmine's powers being more impressive than Glory's I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. Jasmine's power lay in her ability to manipulate those around her into worshipping her based on her appearance. However since the show showed us that vampires with the exception of Angel were immune to her abilities there is a very strong argument that she needs a being to have a human soul to control them. Something I doubt either Glory or Illyria have.

We've not seen much of Jasmine's powers since she only needed this one. We saw some high level magic and car throwing but in the end Jasmine had a pretty good plan that didn't need a showcase of godly powers.

And don't forget that her manipulation was more than just worshipping. She could channel through all those people, see through their eyes and use them to talk and spread her word. It went beyond being just worshipped by all who have a soul.

And if you measure their physical strength well we have seen Glory bring a whole building down simply by stamping while the most we saw Jasmine do was chuck a car at Angel a feat I'm sure a goddess who can collapse a building could also repeat.

We have no reason that she was not able to do more of course. But let not forget that this all was after she was already destroyed. There was a lot of power in her name, and she lost that. And even after that she was ready to throw with cars without much trouble.

While I agree that Illyria was more powerful than a slayer. You should remember that Illyria wasn't exactly known for being humble

But is she ever wrong? Not being humble is not equal to not saying the truth. Illyria is stronger than slayers, and she says it.

I'd have to disagree with you about Darla being a smarter fighter than Buffy. We have seen Buffy display her ingenuity and ability to use her surroundings to her advantage during a fight as early as season 2, when Spike comments that it is this very smartness that allows her to win while watching her fight in "Halloween." Other examples of this can be seen in her ability to come head to head with foes much more powerful than she is such as Glory, Adam or even Dark Willow. In all of these situations she has been seen to use other things such as the power of her friends, the power of weapons etc to her advantage as a way of thinking out of the box.

And Darla doesn't do that? Darla is the only vampire smart enough to show up with a gun when she is fighting a slayer. Since Darla is stronger than Angel... she must have a chance in a fair fight, but why going there when killing a slayer can be very easy? All that is needed is a well placed bullet. That she missed the whole time is almost a bigger mioracle than her guns that never needed a reload, but the plan was good.

The same Darla who knows always which people she needs to manipulate. In the end she had all the comtrol over the Master, Angelus and Lindsey. Which gave her a lot of power. She is smart enough to take no risks, she surrounds herself with important and powerful people and is not too proud to use some hitmen like we saw in Redefenition. Darla was pretty much the brain behind Angelus, she found him and made him... and she was the only one who could control him. And lets not forget that her mindgames are epic.

The woman is brilliant.

Yes, but I think pre-time bomb Illyria which is the strongest we have seen Illyria at has a lot more to support her than her strength. For a start in addition to her great strength she is also incredibly fast something, which also applies to Glory. What is to stop them from speeding up to and snapping Willow's neck before she has the chance to conjure up a spell many of which can take time? In addition to this pre time bomb Illyria has her time alerting abilities which again might provide her with the time needed to stop Willow. And of course she has her dimension travelling abilities, which she could arguably use to drag her into a dimension where she is even more powerful to fight Willow

The most powerful we saw Illyria was in ATF when she was second away from wiping out existence. Not just the city or world, but the whole universe and time. Without armies or extra powers, she could do it by herself.

I don't think Conor could beat Buffy on a good day we were already shown in Season 4 that Connor couldn't even hold his own against Faith, who many will argue is weaker than Buffy, but I do agree that saying Buffy can beat Jasmine because Conor and Angel did isn't a good argument.

Slayers are certainly stonger than Connor. But Faith never really fought Connor, she smashed him against a wall just like Angel once did with him. While we know that Connor can beat Angel is real fights (he already did two times). Connor is less strong but he is quicker, his body is more flexible and his moves are better than the ones of the slayers. To not forget his training, Connor is trained for 16 years fulltime by Holtz. Compare that to Faith who had almost no training or Buffy who is trained for 6 years but never fulltime. In theory he must be technical a much better fighter.

I'm not saying that he easily kicks Buffy's ass, but he certainly has a shot just like Spike and Angel have a shot on good days.

Buffylover you also need to remember that Conor was releated to Jasmine and she is said to be weaker towards those she is related to. This is why Cordelia's blood in addition to her own worked in showing the others her true face.

I'm not sure if this is the case... could be of course. But Connor did not kick her in the back, his suprise attack was nothing less than crushing her skull when she didn't saw it coming. Could be fatal for every creature.

[Vampmaster]

Originally Posted by buffylover

But strength isn't everything; there are ways to overcome it. Like Buffy has better speed and technical , then Angel and Connor, and her experience is greater because Buffy always verse someone stronger than her , Glory , Caleb and the first evil, angel just verse W&H.
Buffy quickly figured it out after two fights, the way to beat Caleb wasn't meeting strength with strength. Physically Caleb was stronger then Buffy, but strength isn't everything, there are ways to overcome it. It’s proven that Buffy doesn’t use her strength she uses her environment, essences of speed, technical and durability skills.

Oh don't get me wrong like I have said previously in this thread and in a number of others. Buffy is in my opinion the best fighter in the entire Buffyverse due to her ingenuity and ability to hold her own against much more powerful opinions. But despite this I think if Buffy came across pre Time-Bomb Illyria she would be in trouble due to the sheer difference between them not only in strength, but in speed and healing as Illyria's body is made out of armour which can withstand axes and hammers. In addition to this she also has her time altering abilities.

Originally Posted by buffylover

You said that jasmine was a Power that Be, older than Illyria and W&H ETC, The first is way stronger then jasmine , and Buffy killed Caleb (with the power of the original evil in his veins). The First Evil is the absolute source and embodiment of all that is evil. Older than demons, Old Ones. Even Gods.

There is no proof the first is more powerful than Jasmine because as Nina pointed out according to Jasmine she existed before Good and Evil even existed in the world, which exams she existed before the First Evil. In addition to this we know that Caleb possess some of the firsts power, but there is no way to know that he had all of the firsts

Originally Posted by buffylover

She pull willow apartment wall of.

That's another great point to add to my argument about Glory outmatching Buffy, if it came to a straight fight without Ben holding her back.

Originally Posted by Ahm Shere

I chose two. I chose Glory and Buffy.

Since I don't watch Angel, nor do I ever plan on watching it, all of what I say is soley based on what I have seen on BtvS.

That's fair enough though may I ask why you refuse to watch Ats?

Originally Posted by Ahm Shere

Glory is a God. She has the ability to knock down and kill people with one punch. She has strength that even Buffy doesn't have. She's feared by other Gods. Why else would they banish her? She's quite blatently the strongest of said Gods. However, Glory does have a flaw: Ben. Ben is her weakspot, which makes her vulnerable, which is something that is bad if you want to be all high and mighty powerful.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Ahm Shere

Buffy is the Slayer. She's has strength and abilities that reguar humans can only dream about. Fair enough, Willow is a witch, and a powerful one at that, but given the chance, a final showdown between Buffy and Willow, Buffy would win. She has faced people much stronger and powerful that Willow, she died twice, yet she's still alive. That's pretty amazing. OK, so Willow brought her back to life, which is a pretty amazing feat in itself, but that is only because the...uh..."powers that be" allowed her to, because she died of mystical causes.

Actually I would place Willow as being above Buffy. Using in show evidence Buffy admits as much herself when she describes Willow as being her "big gun" during Season 5 and this is before Willow has become more powerful in later seasons. In addition to this we have seen a fight between Willow and Buffy in "Two to Go" and Willow was holding her own in a physical fight and this is without her using her magical abilities against Buffy due to the spell Anya had cast. If it came to a battle where Willow had her powers Buffy would be in pretty big trouble, the only reason this didn't happen in "Two to Go" was that Willow was more interested in getting Buffy out of the way so she could fight magicked up Giles.

Oh and one more thing Willow's ability to bring Buffy back from the dead was in my opinion due to her own natural abilities as well. Warren technically died a mystical death, as one could hardly call being magically fled alive normal and look at the botched up job Amy did with him. It would have been like Buffy coming back all decayed and rotted looking.

Originally Posted by Nina

And who says that Glory is a real goddess? Illyria is also called god of gods, still it turns out that Illyria is nothing but a very strong old one/pure demon. Since Glory is evil, she is probably one of those kind of creatures as well. Godlike, but not the real gods. The Powers that Be are portrayed as the gods of the 'verse... they even have higher beings (read: angels -Cordelia-) working for them. The control the world to make sure that balance they once knew can be restored.

Glory has been described as a God on a number of occasions. First by the watchers council at the end of "Check Point" then by the Knights of Byzantium and of course by Glory herself. Since the show has never shown anything to contradict this we can only assume she is indeed a God. As for Illyria old ones have been described as orignal extremely powerful demons as early as "Welcome to the Hellmouth". As for the god to a god thing this was said by Illyria who as I mentioned earlier isn't exactly known for her modesty

Originally Posted by Nina

We've not seen much of Jasmine's powers since she only needed this one. We saw some high level magic and car throwing but in the end Jasmine had a pretty good plan that didn't need a showcase of godly powers.

But it's all we saw in the show and as such their the only abilities she can be contributed with. Abilities which were surpassed on a number of cases by both Glory and Illyria.

Originally Posted by Nina

And don't forget that her manipulation was more than just worshipping. She could channel through all those people, see through their eyes and use them to talk and spread her word. It went beyond being just worshipped by all who have a soul.

I can't really speak for Illyria since the most we saw from her was her effortless defeat of the gang in "Shells" and "Time Bomb" but humans wouldn't have been much of a problem for Glory. She took out an entire army in a matter of seconds during "Spiral" and she was pretty much invincible so Jasmine's human army wouldn't have been much use in that fight.

Originally Posted by Nina

But is she ever wrong? Not being humble is not equal to not saying the truth. Illyria is stronger than slayers, and she says it.

Like I said I agree about Illyria being stronger than slayers, but due to her not so humble nature things like being a god to a god should be taken as a grain of salt. Besides how could one be god to a god anyways?

Originally Posted by Nina

And Darla doesn't do that? Darla is the only vampire smart enough to show up with a gun when she is fighting a slayer. Since Darla is stronger than Angel... she must have a chance in a fair fight, but why going there when killing a slayer can be very easy? All that is needed is a well placed bullet. That she missed the whole time is almost a bigger mioracle than her guns that never needed a reload, but the plan was good.

The same Darla who knows always which people she needs to manipulate. In the end she had all the comtrol over the Master, Angelus and Lindsey. Which gave her a lot of power. She is smart enough to take no risks, she surrounds herself with important and powerful people and is not too proud to use some hitmen like we saw in Redefenition. Darla was pretty much the brain behind Angelus, she found him and made him... and she was the only one who could control him. And lets not forget that her mindgames are epic.

The woman is brilliant.

And Buffy hasn't shown similar traits in the past? Like Darla Buffy has in the past taken the weapon needed to fight against her opponents. She had the ingenuity to use a rocket launcher against the judge a demon who was said to be immune to all weapons and the hammer of a troll against a god. As for surrounding herself with important people doesn't Buffy do the same even if not for the manipulative purposes as Darla. Doesn't Buffy make use of the entire gang to help her in the fight against Adam at the end of Season 4? Doesn't she make use of Willow in the fight against Glory describing her as her 'big gun'. Doesn't she make use of the potentials in the fight against the first in "Chosen" by turning them all into slayers. I'm afraid I count Buffy as the smarter fighter between the two, but I guess were going to have to agree to disagree on this

Originally Posted by Nina

The most powerful we saw Illyria was in ATF when she was second away from wiping out existence. Not just the city or world, but the whole universe and time. Without armies or extra powers, she could do it by herself.

I was referring to the most powerful we have seen her in this dimension, though I did hint to the idea of her power increasing in other dimensions introduced in AtF by referencing her dimensional travel abilities

Originally Posted by Nina

Slayers are certainly stonger than Connor. But Faith never really fought Connor, she smashed him against a wall just like Angel once did with him. While we know that Connor can beat Angel is real fights (he already did two times). Connor is less strong but he is quicker, his body is more flexible and his moves are better than the ones of the slayers. To not forget his training, Connor is trained for 16 years fulltime by Holtz. Compare that to Faith who had almost no training or Buffy who is trained for 6 years but never fulltime. In theory he must be technical a much better fighter.

Yes, but she keeps control of Conor effortlessly even when he tries to fight back, which is why he ends up giving up trying to fight back despite several previous attempts to fight against her. I can't remember the scene to go into any more details just the basics of it

Originally Posted by Nina

I'm not saying that he easily kicks Buffy's ass, but he certainly has a shot just like Spike and Angel have a shot on good days.

I honestly don't think he does and I think at this point Angel or Spikes chances of winning against Buffy are very, very slim. Since she was able to hold her own and defeat both during Season 2 and she has improved alot since then.