Strongest female in the buffyverse

[Ahm Shere]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

That's fair enough though may I ask why you refuse to watch Ats?

I've tried to sit through episodes of Ats, honestly I have. So it's not as if I haven't tried to watch it. I found it hard to get into, I must have only watched about...ten minutes before becoming bored and flipping the channel to watch something else. Plus, I hated Angel in BtvS, so I doubt I'd enjoy a whole series of Angel

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

Actually I would place Willow as being above Buffy. Using in show evidence Buffy admits as much herself when she describes Willow as being her "big gun" during Season 5 and this is before Willow has become more powerful in later seasons. In addition to this we have seen a fight between Willow and Buffy in "Two to Go" and Willow was holding her own in a physical fight and this is without her using her magical abilities against Buffy due to the spell Anya had cast. If it came to a battle where Willow had her powers Buffy would be in pretty big trouble, the only reason this didn't happen in "Two to Go" was that Willow was more interested in getting Buffy out of the way so she could fight magicked up Giles.

Really? Yes, I suppose Buffy did refer to Willow as her Big Gun, but I always just saw Willow as a back-up incase Buffy somehow failed, because Willow was the strongest out of the remaining Scoobies. It's also true that Willow did fight well without her powers against Buffy, but Buffy had fought tougher people after getting her ass kicked by them, and she won. I think eventually, after a huge epic battle between Willow and Buffy, I believe Buffy would win. Even if she only just manages to win.

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

Oh and one more thing Willow's ability to bring Buffy back from the dead was in my opinion due to her own natural abilities as well. Warren technically died a mystical death, as one could hardly call being magically fled alive normal and look at the botched up job Amy did with him. It would have been like Buffy coming back all decayed and rotted looking.

Fair point, however...about Warren and Amy...is that in Season 8? Because...I've never read it...

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

I'd have to disagree with you about Darla being a smarter fighter than Buffy. We have seen Buffy display her ingenuity and ability to use her surroundings to her advantage during a fight as early as season 2, when Spike comments that it is this very smartness that allows her to win while watching her fight in "Halloween."

I agree that Buffy is a very smart fighter. Her ability to improvise and, as she puts it, "go with the flow" is what makes her so formidable. Angelus calls her "the strongest slayer Spike has ever faced" in Innocence. It reminds me of Checkpoint where Buffy is supposed to follow the very formal Japanese style of fighting but instead "does it her way" and beats the guy within seconds. In season 8 we've seen her knock down three slayers without even trying. She’s very skilled and also very powerful.

Yes, but I think pre-time bomb Illyria which is the strongest we have seen Illyria at has a lot more to support her than her strength. For a start in addition to her great strength she is also incredibly fast something, which also applies to Glory. What is to stop them from speeding up to and snapping Willow's neck before she has the chance to conjure up a spell many of which can take time?

What's to stop Willow from speeding up time or simply disappearing? Or just blasting them with lightning bolts like she did to Glory in Tough Love? The thing with Willow is that we don't know what limit there is to her power or what she can't do. We do know that she can fly though so she could just fight Illyria or Glory from the air where they can't reach her

In addition to this pre time bomb Illyria has her time alerting abilities which again might provide her with the time needed to stop Willow. And of course she has her dimension travelling abilities, which she could arguably use to drag her into a dimension where she is even more powerful to fight Willow

Well it's implied in both Ats s5 and BtVS S8 that Willow can hop dimensions as well or at least other plains of existence. But Illyria has lost her dimension hopping and time travel abilities now anyway so Willow would be up against somebody who isn’t even in their prime. Hamilton managed to beat her down and I think Willow could defeat Hamilton.

But as I said I think we're going to find out that Willow isn't even human anymore. Saga Vasuki talks about her "ascension" and in ToYL we learn she's been alive for 200 years. Willow actually states that she hasn't been human for a long time now. IMO I wouldn't be surprised if Joss is literally making her a "goddess."

Buffylover you also need to remember that Conor was releated to Jasmine and she is said to be weaker towards those she is related to. This is why Cordelia's blood in addition to her own worked in showing the others her true face.

Yeah I always assumed that's why he was able to kill her with one punch? Even if she didn't see it coming it still shouldn't mean he can punch a hole through her head if Angel's punches barley even make her flinch. I just assumed it was meant to be because he was her father.

Originally Posted by Nina

And who says that Glory is a real goddess? Illyria is also called god of gods, still it turns out that Illyria is nothing but a very strong old one/pure demon. Since Glory is evil, she is probably one of those kind of creatures as well. Godlike, but not the real gods. The Powers that Be are portrayed as the gods of the 'verse... they even have higher beings (read: angels -Cordelia-) working for them. The control the world to make sure that balance they once knew can be restored.

It's stated by a number of sources that Glory is a god. She ruled a hell dimension with two other Gods until even they were so horrified by her cruelty that they battled her to kick her out. Apparently it took both of them and they only just succeeded and as punishment they put her in the body of a human. This is confirmed by a number of people and never protested so there’s no reason to think she wasn’t a God.

Since Darla is stronger than Angel... she must have a chance in a fair fight, but why going there when killing a slayer can be very easy?

Well we already saw Buffy kick Darla's ass so we know why she had to go there with a gun. I know that Darla was very different in the BtVS pilot but it's canon so we have to take it as evidence that Buffy can pretty much wipe the floor with her.

Slayers are certainly stonger than Connor. But Faith never really fought Connor, she smashed him against a wall just like Angel once did with him. While we know that Connor can beat Angel is real fights (he already did two times). Connor is less strong but he is quicker, his body is more flexible and his moves are better than the ones of the slayers. To not forget his training, Connor is trained for 16 years fulltime by Holtz. Compare that to Faith who had almost no training or Buffy who is trained for 6 years but never fulltime. In theory he must be technical a much better fighter.

Well we did see Faith and Connor engage in a technical fight and Faith won. They're trading blows and Faith is easily blocking all his moves before putting the crossbow to his neck. If she had wanted to she could have killed him right then, Connor could do nothing but stand there as she held it at his jugular. Faith just scoffs at his efforts, "I get it you're a super being!" Connor was trying to show off with his skill and speed and Faith just deflected it with complete ease. And then in Orpheus she completely kicks his arse again. It doesn't even look like she's trying.

Slayers aren't just given strength, they're naturally given skill as well. They do need training but a lot of it is inherent. It’s also stated in Fray that they dream of past slayers and learn their moves so they have all of that knowledge as well.

[Nina]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

Glory has been described as a God on a number of occasions. First by the watchers council at the end of "Check Point" then by the Knights of Byzantium and of course by Glory herself. Since the show has never shown anything to contradict this we can only assume she is indeed a God. As for Illyria old ones have been described as orignal extremely powerful demons as early as "Welcome to the Hellmouth". As for the god to a god thing this was said by Illyria who as I mentioned earlier isn't exactly known for her modesty

Okay you have a point. But even if Wesley never calls her a god, he says "She has the power of a god." and he never says anything when Illyria calls herself god-king or god of a god. Include that she has a temple and worshippers, worshippers who call her a god. besides, she once ruled the earth. I'm not sure where the line lays. Maybe they don't have any other word for Glory? Even Illyria who has a true describtion (Old One) is called very ofted Ancient God, even in descriptions by 20th Century Fox.

But in the end, Jasmine is above both because she was one of the great beings who walked the world before demons and evil were present. Which was the point of my original argument. The Powers that Be are the ones who still run the world while living in a heaven-like place. Angel walking through Kate's door without a welcome? PtB. Snow to safe Angel's life in Amends? PtB. Connor's birth? PtB. Cordelia's chance to say goodbye? PtB.

Glory can destroy buildings and suck brains empty. But lets get real, that is not even close to the Powers that Be... or even Illyria on her highpoints.

But it's all we saw in the show and as such their the only abilities she can be contributed with. Abilities which were surpassed on a number of cases by both Glory and Illyria.

You seem to put a lot of priority on fistpower. Jasmine showed so many things no other creature can, why doesn't that count? She is so much more than just a very powerful thing walking the earth... she has the power to play with the rules of nature (pregnant vampires, snow in Sunnydale, breaking simple vampire rules), she is capable of bringing Cordelia to heaven and control her, she can be loved by anyone who sees her and use all those people and she can heal herself. She never needed to destroy buildings because she went for the 'peacefull' aproach. All what we saw was a creauture who lost her godlike powers and still throw around a car. We also saw her doing impressing magic and the way she eats people can be a nice weapon as well.

I can't really speak for Illyria since the most we saw from her was her effortless defeat of the gang in "Shells" and "Time Bomb" but humans wouldn't have been much of a problem for Glory. She took out an entire army in a matter of seconds during "Spiral" and she was pretty much invincible so Jasmine's human army wouldn't have been much use in that fight.

You forget every time that Jasmine was not challenged to do more. I doubt that she would go for the human army aproach when Glory showed up. Glory was not that hard to beat in the end, one smash with a hammer and she was down. Jasmine as all knowing creature probably knows that. Besides Ben (because he is Glory ) will be influenced by Jasmine. A Power that Be who can send somebody to heaven, can also send somebody to another dimension. And maybe Jasmine has special tricks for creatures who are stronger than humans and vampires.

Like I said I agree about Illyria being stronger than slayers, but due to her not so humble nature things like being a god to a god should be taken as a grain of salt. Besides how could one be god to a god anyways?

That's not that hard. If I have worshippers and a temple, I'm a god... but I can worship somebody else who will be my god and be the god of a god.

There is a big chance that she is right, she is godlike and if another godlike creature worshipped her. There is nothing wrong with that statement. You assume that she is wrong, but big fat chance she is correct.

And Buffy hasn't shown similar traits in the past? Like Darla Buffy has in the past taken the weapon needed to fight against her opponents. She had the ingenuity to use a rocket launcher against the judge a demon who was said to be immune to all weapons and the hammer of a troll against a god. As for surrounding herself with important people doesn't Buffy do the same even if not for the manipulative purposes as Darla. Doesn't Buffy make use of the entire gang to help her in the fight against Adam at the end of Season 4? Doesn't she make use of Willow in the fight against Glory describing her as her 'big gun'. Doesn't she make use of the potentials in the fight against the first in "Chosen" by turning them all into slayers. I'm afraid I count Buffy as the smarter fighter between the two, but I guess were going to have to agree to disagree on this

let's do that.

I was referring to the most powerful we have seen her in this dimension, though I did hint to the idea of her power increasing in other dimensions introduced in AtF by referencing her dimensional travel abilities

It was her true power she showed, in her true form. There was certainly something going on in hell but nobody got stronger. Illyria only had the ability to break out Fred's body and use more of her real powers.

Yes, but she keeps control of Conor effortlessly even when he tries to fight back, which is why he ends up giving up trying to fight back despite several previous attempts to fight against her. I can't remember the scene to go into any more details just the basics of it

&

I honestly don't think he does and I think at this point Angel or Spikes chances of winning against Buffy are very, very slim. Since she was able to hold her own and defeat both during Season 2 and she has improved alot since then.

Connor killed creatures more powerful than a slayer. By example Sahjan. He also floored Groo, Angel and Gunn at the same time. And we saw him kill several vampires at the same time (more than we ever saw Buffy fight alone at the same time). Like I said, Connor is less strong and can't beat them on strength. If Faith holds him tightly he can't get out. He showed just a little bit too many times that he can fight very well to just remember this one time with Faith.

In BtVS there is pretty much one rule: Buffy kicks the most asses. Both Angel and Spike were dumbed down to a very idiotic level from time to time. Angel being kicked around by a random vampire while Buffy could take three and help Angel stand up after Angel's vampire escaped. Spike needed a whole team to back him up to kill two vampires etc.

If you simply compare the moves the vampires and Connor can do with those of Buffy. There is no way that they have no chance against Buffy or Faith. Just watch 'Destiny' or 'The New World' and you'll see many moves and fighting skills the slayers don't have. If Connor, Angel and Spike fight like that, they certainly have a chance. Strength is not all there is in fighting.

[buffylover]

If I recall it stated on the show that the first evil is the source of an embodiment of all evil. Older than demons, even the Old Ones, it is older than the written word and transcends all realities and dimensions. The first evil is the first ever entity ever to have existed, its even lurked in the darkness long before the universe was even created and it shall never end even when the universe ends.

Why is everybody forgetting Buffy’s got the slayer weapons, embodied the mystical essence of the Slayer. Slayers who wield it were capable of sensing its innate power. So basically that might give Buffy a chance of winning, if I recall it quoted that this weapon is specific for the slayer to kill the last pure demon that walked upon earth,illyria could be that demon.

[Vampmaster]

Originally Posted by Ahm Shere

I've tried to sit through episodes of Ats, honestly I have. So it's not as if I haven't tried to watch it. I found it hard to get into, I must have only watched about...ten minutes before becoming bored and flipping the channel to watch something else. Plus, I hated Angel in BtvS, so I doubt I'd enjoy a whole series of Angel

To each his own I guess though I would definitely recommend giving Angel another try. He is shaped out so much more within the series and the details we find out about his history are really fascinating for the Spike, Darla or Drusilla fan. In addition to this the show shows truly amazing developments for both Cordelia and Wesley that will truly astonish you . And that’s not even acknowledging the show’s original characters.

Originally Posted by Ahm Shere

Really? Yes, I suppose Buffy did refer to Willow as her Big Gun, but I always just saw Willow as a back-up incase Buffy somehow failed, because Willow was the strongest out of the remaining Scoobies. It's also true that Willow did fight well without her powers against Buffy, but Buffy had fought tougher people after getting her ass kicked by them, and she won. I think eventually, after a huge epic battle between Willow and Buffy, I believe Buffy would win. Even if she only just manages to win.

No I’m fairly certain that Buffy was referring to Willow as being more powerful than her in general by the statement that followed, “Your the only one who has ever hurt Glory.” As for Buffy vs Willow Yes, Buffy is an incredible fighter and this is why she has been able to hold her own against stronger foes, but to be fair most of the more physically powerful people Buffy fought against such as Adam and Glory lacked the magical power that Willow possesses in abundance to back their strength with. I agree that when it comes to physical power Buffy is the stronger of the two, but overall considering the amount of magical power Willow possesses. I just consider her stronger

Originally Posted by Ahm Shere

Fair point, however...about Warren and Amy...is that in Season 8? Because...I've never read it...

Spoiler:

Yes it’s in Season 8. We find out that Amy witnessed the entire dark Willow sequence and was hiding when Willow flayed Warren in the forest. She saved him from dying, but since she isn’t quite as good as Willow she completely botched it up and Warren is still skinless. Also about the whole first thing in season 7 Joss has already admitted to it being a continuity error on his part

Originally Posted by vampmogs

What's to stop Willow from speeding up time or simply disappearing? Or just blasting them with lightning bolts like she did to Glory in Tough Love? The thing with Willow is that we don't know what limit there is to her power or what she can't do. We do know that she can fly though so she could just fight Illyria or Glory from the air where they can't reach her

If Illyria has altered the flow of time so that it has slowed down then Willow wouldn’t be moving at the pace needed for her to speed up the flow of time again, as there has been nothing to date that suggests she would be capable of withstanding such a change to the time stream. Another thing you will need to remember about Willow is that both time and the energy used will be an issue for her as we know from “Two To Go” that once Willow uses up a certain amount of energy she will need what she fondly refers to as a “pick me up.”

Originally Posted by vampmogs

Well it's implied in both Ats s5 and BtVS S8 that Willow can hop dimensions as well or at least other plains of existence. But Illyria has lost her dimension hopping and time travel abilities now anyway so Willow would be up against somebody who isn’t even in their prime. Hamilton managed to beat her down and I think Willow could defeat Hamilton.

I agree about Willow’s ability to transfer between dimensions though then again like with most things magically related in the Buffyverse. It’s not doing the thing that is hard, but doing it right. Though I do agree that Willow would own post time bomb Illyria as the only thing she has to back her up now is Super strength and of course super vulnerability. But if we are talking
about Illyria pre time-bomb then I think Willow loses.

Originally Posted by vampmogs

Well we did see Faith and Connor engage in a technical fight and Faith won. They're trading blows and Faith is easily blocking all his moves before putting the crossbow to his neck. If she had wanted to she could have killed him right then, Connor could do nothing but stand there as she held it at his jugular. Faith just scoffs at his efforts, "I get it you're a super being!" Connor was trying to show off with his skill and speed and Faith just deflected it with complete ease. And then in Orpheus she completely kicks his arse again. It doesn't even look like she's trying.
Slayers aren't just given strength, they're naturally given skill as well. They do need training but a lot of it is inherent. It’s also stated in Fray that they dream of past slayers and learn their moves so they have all of that knowledge as well.

I just wanted to say agreed since that was near enough exactly what I would have repiled with

Originally Posted by Nina

But in the end, Jasmine is above both because she was one of the great beings who walked the world before demons and evil were present. Which was the point of my original argument. The Powers that Be are the ones who still run the world while living in a heaven-like place. Angel walking through Kate's door without a welcome? PtB. Snow to safe Angel's life in Amends? PtB. Connor's birth? PtB. Cordelia's chance to say goodbye? PtB.

Glory can destroy buildings and suck brains empty. But lets get real, that is not even close to the Powers that Be... or even Illyria on her highpoints.

Ah but the thing your forgetting is that Glory isn’t from this world and as such could easily be just as old as the Power That Be. All we know about her is that she was the ruler of one of the millions of hell dimensions in existence along with two other gods who were so afraid of the great power she had gathered. They went to war against her one which they barely won and the most they could do was banish her to earth to be trapped in the body of a baby human boy until he died his human death.

As for the Powers That Be you’re forgetting one thing they are still at their full strength whereas both Illyria and Glory aren’t. This is addressed directly by Buffy and answered by Giles within “Blood Ties”

BUFFY: Okay, so, we know where Glory's from. What do we know about her? You know, she's tough, yeah, but, but no bolts of lightning, no blasts of fire, shouldn't a god be able to do that kind of stuff?

GILES: (pouring tea) Uh, usually, yes, but um, being in human form must be severely limiting her powers. All we have to worry about right now is she's immortal, invulnerable, and insane.

So for all we know Glory could have been capable of equal feats had she of successfully returned to her home dimension in the gift. But sadly we will never know for definite as other than a few teasing references like this one the show never fully explored the powers Glory had in her full form in the same way as Angel never explored the full powers of Illyria which we know weren’t presented even pre “Time Bomb.” As she tells Wesley that those who one knew her in other dimensions would laugh at her current form

You seem to put a lot of priority on fistpower. Jasmine showed so many things no other creature can, why doesn't that count? She is so much more than just a very powerful thing walking the earth... she has the power to play with the rules of nature (pregnant vampires, snow in Sunnydale, breaking simple vampire rules), she is capable of bringing Cordelia to heaven and control her

The reason I haven’t considered these feats is because Jasmine made them while she was still at full power in the higher place. As a result I don’t think it is fair to compare fully powered Jasmine to earth bound human infested Glory and Illyria who we know as I mentioned earlier weren’t at their full strength either. We also know that Jasmine isn’t capable of making these decisions it’s why she needed her ability to make humans love her and Connor to protect her.

she can be loved by anyone who sees her and use all those people and she can heal herself. She never needed to destroy buildings because she went for the 'peacefull' aproach. All what we saw was a creauture who lost her godlike powers and still throw around a car. We also saw her doing impressing magic and the way she eats people can be a nice weapon as well.

a) It is very unlikely that Glory and Illyria would be affected by her love magic since creatures as lowly as vampires weren’t.
b) They are both especially Glory invulnerable which at most would allow them to tie with Jasmine.
c) I doubt she would have been capable of eating either Glory or Illyria.

You forget every time that Jasmine was not challenged to do more. I doubt that she would go for the human army aproach when Glory showed up. Glory was not that hard to beat in the end, one smash with a hammer and she was down. Jasmine as all knowing creature probably knows that. Besides Ben (because he is Glory ) will be influenced by Jasmine. A Power that Be who can send somebody to heaven, can also send somebody to another dimension. And maybe Jasmine has special tricks for creatures who are stronger than humans and vampires.

One smash? Please it took a number of smashes in addition to being hit by a truck, in addition to being weakened by the mind sucking reversal spell cast by Willow in addition to the power of the dragon sphere something which was designed to both hurt and repel her near her to take her down. And this was when her powers were also beginning to weaken due to the breaking down of the barriers that separated her and Ben.

It was her true power she showed, in her true form. There was certainly something going on in hell but nobody got stronger. Illyria only had
the ability to break out Fred's body and use more of her real powers.

Exactly, the effect of being in another dimension was that Illyria was able to break out of her ‘shell’ and access more of her real powers than she would have been able to access on earth in the same way as Angels vampire transformation and abilities were affected while they were in Pylea. Which is why I made the suggestion that in a battle with Willow she could transfer them to another dimension where she is able to access more of her powers in order to win

Connor killed creatures more powerful than a slayer. By example Sahjan. He also floored Groo, Angel and Gunn at the same time. And we saw him kill several vampires at the same time (more than we ever saw Buffy fight alone at the same time). Like I said, Connor is less strong and can't beat them on strength. If Faith holds him tightly he can't get out. He showed just a little bit too many times that he can fight very well to just remember this one time with Faith.

Buffy also defeated creatures more powerful than a slayer. She won against an actual God who was much more powerful than Sahjan, she won against Adam though that was admittedly with magic but a win none the less since I’m sure if it came down to a battle between the two of them both parties would use all of the resources available to them to win. The show has shown time and time again Buffy is an incredibly talented fighter and not due to her slayer strength, Spike compliments her on this in Halloween, Angels compliments her on this later on in the same season. She is able to beat Faith in Season 3 and has progressed to the point where she is able to effortlessly beat three other slayers by Season 8. While it is likely Connor could hold his own and win against a slayer being able to win and hold his own against Buffy is something different.

If you simply compare the moves the vampires and Connor can do with those of Buffy. There is no way that they have no chance against Buffy or Faith. Just watch 'Destiny' or 'The New World' and you'll see many moves and fighting skills the slayers don't have. If Connor, Angel and Spike fight like that, they certainly have a chance. Strength is not all there is in fighting.

True but as I have pointed out several times already strength is not the only thing that Buff has to support her on a fight.

Originally Posted by buffylover

If I recall it stated on the show that the first evil is the source of an embodiment of all evil. Older than demons, even the Old Ones, it is older than the written word and transcends all realities and dimensions. The first evil is the first ever entity ever to have existed, its even lurked in the darkness long before the universe was even created and it shall never end even when the universe ends.

Yes, but the Jossverse pretty much contradicted itself within the same season timescale as Season 7 of Buffy and Season 4 of Angel took place at the same time by having Jasmine state that she along with a number of other Powers That Be where the first beings here on earth since the time of creation and the arrival of the forces that are now known as Good and Evil.

[Nina]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

Ah but the thing your forgetting is that Glory isn’t from this world and as such could easily be just as old as the Power That Be. All we know about her is that she was the ruler of one of the millions of hell dimensions in existence along with two other gods who were so afraid of the great power she had gathered. They went to war against her one which they barely won and the most they could do was banish her to earth to be trapped in the body of a baby human boy until he died his human death.

True, but the same happened to Illyria who is no god. We talk here about three godlike creatures with different kind of powers. I agree that Glory's powers must be more than what we saw, but at the same time we have no idea how much stronger she was. Of course we can assume that she was incredible strong. But we don't know... what we do know is that Glory is hardly one of those neutral wise creatures that are the PtB. Age doesn't say anything, Glory was not the brighest of the bunch. Even if she is equal to Illyria and Jasmine in the power department, she will always lose in the brain department which will be her end if she fights real equals.

As for the Powers That Be you’re forgetting one thing they are still at their full strength whereas both Illyria and Glory aren’t. This is addressed directly by Buffy and answered by Giles within “Blood Ties”

BUFFY: Okay, so, we know where Glory's from. What do we know about her? You know, she's tough, yeah, but, but no bolts of lightning, no blasts of fire, shouldn't a god be able to do that kind of stuff?

GILES: (pouring tea) Uh, usually, yes, but um, being in human form must be severely limiting her powers. All we have to worry about right now is she's immortal, invulnerable, and insane.

So for all we know Glory could have been capable of equal feats had she of successfully returned to her home dimension in the gift. But sadly we will never know for definite as other than a few teasing references like this one the show never fully explored the powers Glory had in her full form in the same way as Angel never explored the full powers of Illyria which we know weren’t presented even pre “Time Bomb.” As she tells Wesley that those who one knew her in other dimensions would laugh at her current form

True, but we also know that the Powers that Be are not trying very hard. According to Jasmine they do almost nothing beyond observing. Glory and Illyria are powerful, you will never hear me say that they are not. But there is a reason why the Powers that Be are still on full power and the other two aren't. The Powers that Be are never beated, like the other two are. There is no reason to look back and say that Glory and Illyria were once really powerful as well. Tjose times are over, they are beaten... destroyed. They are still alive but no longer godlike. Jasmine still owned all her powers until her name was revealed. That is the big difference.

The reason I haven’t considered these feats is because Jasmine made them while she was still at full power in the higher place. As a result I don’t think it is fair to compare fully powered Jasmine to earth bound human infested Glory and Illyria who we know as I mentioned earlier weren’t at their full strength either. We also know that Jasmine isn’t capable of making these decisions it’s why she needed her ability to make humans love her and Connor to protect her.

Like I just said, Jasmine had still the power to return to her old state. Glory and Illyria are defeated, stuck in human bodies and they should be happy with it. Glory had maybe the chance to return just like Illyria in other dimensions, but Jasmine had the power in this dimension.

Jasmine certainly lost many powers in her earthly form, but she didn't need those humans to lover her for a purpose. No matter how twisted her thoughts were, she really thought that she was there to save humanity. She wanted people to love her because she thought that would make them happy. She didn't want an army (yes she could use them, but only to protect her heaven on earth) and Connor was a general, like so many leaders have one. But lets not act like she needed Connor because she was a helpless woman. If she really wanted, she could do the dirty work herself. Maybe she is just to proud to do it herself when it's not needed, or she wanted to stay the example of peacebringer, I'm not sure. But if you can throw with cars, you can hunt down Winifred Burkle and kill her.

a) It is very unlikely that Glory and Illyria would be affected by her love magic since creatures as lowly as vampires weren’t.
b) They are both especially Glory invulnerable which at most would allow them to tie with Jasmine.
c) I doubt she would have been capable of eating either Glory or Illyria.

A) Illyria is unlikely because Fred's soul is destroyed but Glory has still the soulled Ben in her and will be influenced. Jasmine wanted soulled creatures, that why only Angel was influenced.
B)We don't know Jasmine's physical powers before she was destroyed in 'Peace Out'. But those were undoubtly more impressive than the car throwing we saw. Her name did so much more than removing the lovespell.
C) Why not? We don't know how the eating happened.

One smash? Please it took a number of smashes in addition to being hit by a truck, in addition to being weakened by the mind sucking reversal spell cast by Willow in addition to the power of the dragon sphere something which was designed to both hurt and repel her near her to take her down. And this was when her powers were also beginning to weaken due to the breaking down of the barriers that separated her and Ben.

I'm sorry, I don't like the episode that much and never rewatched it. The only thing I remember that I was pissed how easily Glory the great god went down.

Still, hardly unbeatable. If Scoobies can do it, it's very hard to imagine that she can't be beaten by a Power that Be.

Exactly, the effect of being in another dimension was that Illyria was able to break out of her ‘shell’ and access more of her real powers than she would have been able to access on earth in the same way as Angels vampire transformation and abilities were affected while they were in Pylea. Which is why I made the suggestion that in a battle with Willow she could transfer them to another dimension where she is able to access more of her powers in order to win

Not a real reaction to you but;
I always have a hard time believing that Willow somehow can find access to powers Illyria can't, while she owns those powers out of herself. Why can't Illyria fly on earth (we know she can do it in ATF hell) but Willow can? And how is it possible that Fred's body couldn't deal with thosekind of powers but that Willow never had trouble with her body. *sigh* But if Illyria can have access to her real powers, Willow is nowhere....

Buffy also defeated creatures more powerful than a slayer. She won against an actual God who was much more powerful than Sahjan, she won against Adam though that was admittedly with magic but a win none the less since I’m sure if it came down to a battle between the two of them both parties would use all of the resources available to them to win. The show has shown time and time again Buffy is an incredibly talented fighter and not due to her slayer strength, Spike compliments her on this in Halloween, Angels compliments her on this later on in the same season. She is able to beat Faith in Season 3 and has progressed to the point where she is able to effortlessly beat three other slayers by Season 8. While it is likely Connor could hold his own and win against a slayer being able to win and hold his own against Buffy is something different.

I never got the Buffy worship, in some lists in this thread she is rated higher than gods and godlike creatures. Why is Buffy so special? What did she ever do that makes her this supreme warrior. Both Glory and Adam are not beaten by her bare hands with only a normal weapon. Glory was defeated by a Deus-ex-machina and Adam by magic and the powers of other. Sorry to say, but the most of her huge victories were dumb luck/writerfiats. Her biggest victory that was not based on luck/special super weapons/plotholes must be the Ubervamp or Angelus. Connor did beat Sahjan with nothing but a random axe. He did beat Angel without any weapon. I don't see much difference.

None of the warriors do differ much from eachother. One is stronger, the other is faster and the third is really flexible.

True but as I have pointed out several times already strength is not the only thing that Buff has to support her on a fight.

Of she is not only strength but lets not act like she is some super special warrior. What Buffy does, many others do as well. She is a good one, don't get me wrong but she is not superior in every aspect of fighting. Connor's spartanic training for 16 years, plus his higher speed and his Peter Pan moves is certainly a complete different kind of fighter and I think it's a bit soon to just say that he has no chance against Buffy. Especially now because he is no longer confused and crazy.

A fight between only Buffy and Connor while both having only one normal weapon... I think that it will show that Connor is better trained, faster and having better senses and moves. Depends on the condition and concentration of both who will win, but I will certainly not say that Connor has no chance ever.

But why are we discussing this? Connor is no girl, no matter how slender VK is.

[vampmogs]

Can I just ask something…what are we debating here? Are we debating about who’s the most powerful character as they stand NOW or are we debating about them at the height of their power? Because it makes a huge difference in the discussion and I'm getting confused

Glory’s powers were severely diminished when she was overthrown and forced down onto our plain. So we know that two other Hellgods “barley” overthrew her, her power grew beyond even what they could conceive and she made Gods “afraid.” We also that she should be able to shoot lighting bolts and blasts of fire if not for the human body she was forced into. So it’d be unfair and inaccurate to compare Glory to Jasmine or Illyria at the height of their power if we’re not doing the same for Glory.

I think it'd make the most sense if we compare who's the strongest as they stand NOW or when they were last on the show. Because what does it really matter how powerful they were back in the day? They don't have access to that power now so it seems a tad pointless to bring it up. So if we were to break each character down to how they are now...

GLORY:

Strengths: She's so strong she can bring down buildings with a stamp of her foot, tear down the wall of UC Sunnydale and get hit by a wrecking ball and a Mack Truck and get straight back up. She can also punch a wall through Willow's mystical force field and flying daggers, crowbars and shattered glass have no effect on her. She can also be dropped from great heights (Willow teleports her into the night sky) and not be harmed. She's immortal, invulnerable and she moves so fast she blurs.

Weaknesses: Troll-God's enchanted Hammer, the Dagon’s Sphere and of course Ben. Willow is also the only person to ever hurt her when she blasts her with the lighting bolts in Tough love which causes Glory to scream in pain.


JASMINE:

Strengths: She can lift up cars with ease, survive being electrocuted and a vampire's punch doesn't even make her flinch. She can also jump off bridges and fall from great heights without getting hurt.

Weaknesses: Her parents Cordelia and Connor. Connor can kill her with a single punch and Cordy's blood broke her hold over everyone.


ILLYRIA:

Strengths: She's so strong she can punch a hole through somebody's head and make it explode. She knows many different martial arts such as tae kwon do and Brazilian Ninjitsu. It's unclear wether she's immortal or not but since it isn't stated it's a "no."

Weaknesses: Basically anyone who is stronger than her. Hamilton can beat her to a bloody pulp because he has greater strength. She doesn't have any particular objects or people who are of particular risk to her.


WILLOW:

Strengths: Willow can thicken the air around her opponent making it impossible for them to move. She can also shoot blasts of energy from her hands that are powerful enough to make a god scream in agony. Willow can summon Gods such as Osiris and the Tibetan gods from #29 and she can even destroy gods like she does to Osiris in Villains. She has the power to burn the earth to a cinder, she can teleport herself and others as well as large objects like a submarine, wave her hand and hurl people through the air, fly, manipulate people with mind control, sense danger and go on "mystical walkabouts." She can also heal herself from a lobotomy, a cut to the face, skinned flesh and an axe to the back and has the power to transform Dawn back into the Key. She can also give herself super strength, make daggers and axes fly through the air and open portals to the past and future.

Weaknesses: Even though Willow can heal herself she can still die and not come back from death. It's unclear what it'd take to kill Willow (as she plucks the axe from her back) but it isn't stated that she's immortal so we'd have to assume she's still vulnerable. It's also unclear wether or not she can still 'tap out' from severe magic use as she hasn't had that problem once in s8. Her power can be turned against her like the device Warren used to hold her.


I only did those four characters as it's pretty clear they're the big contenders. Looking at that list I'd personally still choose Willow. Glory, Illyria and Jasmine's powers were all severely diminished the last time they were in the series but Willow's continue to grow. Jasmine was perhaps the most weakened with nothing but super strength left after Angel broke her manipulation powers.


Just to quickly answer some posts;

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

Another thing you will need to remember about Willow is that both time and the energy used will be an issue for her as we know from “Two To Go” that once Willow uses up a certain amount of energy she will need what she fondly refers to as a “pick me up.”

As I said above Willow doesn't seem to have a problem with that now. I think it was something Vasuki has taught her but I guess we'll know more come December. But the last time we saw her drained from her powers was after her big spell in Chosen.

I agree about Willow’s ability to transfer between dimensions though then again like with most things magically related in the Buffyverse. It’s not doing the thing that is hard, but doing it right. Though I do agree that Willow would own post time bomb Illyria as the only thing she has to back her up now is Super strength and of course super vulnerability. But if we are talking
about Illyria pre time-bomb then I think Willow loses.

I still think Willow would win But I think it's only fair, as I said above, to compare the characters as they stand now. I think it makes the most sense to do it that way.

I just wanted to say agreed since that was near enough exactly what I would have repiled with

Yay! At least we agree on something!

Originally Posted by Nina

I never got the Buffy worship, in some lists in this thread she is rated higher than gods and godlike creatures. Why is Buffy so special?

I agree that she shouldn't be rated higher than gods and godlike creatures but she IS special. It's stated so in the text,

ANGELUS: She's stronger than any slayer you've ever faced

DRACULA: (looks a little annoyed) You know who I am. As I would now without question that you are Buffy Summers...Naturally. You're known throughout the world...Why else would I come here? For the sun? I came to meet the renowned ... killer.


FUTURE WILLOW: There's nothing the slayer can't overcome


HARTH: She's the slayer of slayers

In TLWY Buffy takes down three slayers without even trying. So she is different from other slayers and is special.

Buffy has defeated legendary vampires like Angelus, Darla, Spike and The Master. She's killed gigantic sewers monsters, the Mother Bazar, the Hellmouth monster, Caleb when The First Evil "made him a God," Faith, Fray, Doc without even looking after he just kicked Spike's ass, Razor's demon biker gang, Glory's gigantic snake demon ect.

And in Time of Your Life Buffy states that she's dreamt about every battle other slayers have fought in and knows their moves. So she may have only had 5+ years of training but she has FAR MORE experience than that. It's why fighting comes so naturally to slayers. She's a lot more than just strength. She's a trained fighter and is very aware of her surroundings. In Band Candy Buffy and Giles do the training session where he puts a blindfold over her eyes and she has to try and hit him with the ball. She does it so easily that she turns around, chucks the ball at the wall and it bounces off and hits Giles in the head. It was effortless.

Connor's spartanic training for 16 years, plus his higher speed and his Peter Pan moves is certainly a complete different kind of fighter and I think it's a bit soon to just say that he has no chance against Buffy. Especially now because he is no longer confused and crazy.

Connor had no chance against Faith twice so why would he have a chance against Buffy? I don't really understand how someone can look at s4 and still think he has a chance. Remember that Angel could have killed him moments after he came out of Quortoth when he had the blade to his neck but he let him go. Faith could have killed him when she had the crossbow to his jugular but she let him go. Angel did kill him in Home when he slashed his throat.

In Spin the Bottle LIAM beat Connor when he had no memory of how to fight and only just learnt he was a vampire.

Connor has only ever defeated Angel once and that's because he had the taser, the knife and the element of surprise and Angel wasn't trying his hardest. Angel was too busy trying to talk to him when if he had wanted to he could have drowned Connor in the sea like he started to do before letting him up for air. Every other time Angel has beat him. He beat him in Home and in Inside Out and in Deep Down Connor is too scared to even try and fight Angel, even after he was severely weakened by being dumped down in the ocean for 3 months.

And we've seen how Buffy can handle more vamps than Connor at once. For a start she was fighting more Ubervamps at the same time and in Into the Woods she dusts like 8 or 9 vamps in a couple of seconds. She also dusts at least 6 at once in Sleeper. I'm pretty sure we never saw Connor dust that many vampires at the same time...

I'm sure Connor had to earn the name "The Destroyer" from being a good fighter but compared to Buffy, Faith, Angel and Spike, IMO, he just can't cut it. He's been seriously outclassed every time he's fought with one of them. Even in Tomorrow he asks Angel to train him beforehand so he'd stand a chance of fighting him on the beach, "it's all about balance remember?" And in The House Always Wins Angel is watching him fight a vamp from the rooftop and is pointing out all the mistakes he's making. Connor still had a lot to learn. Unlike Angel he doesn't have 240+ years of experience and unlike Buffy he doesn't have thousands of years worth of memories teaching him how to fight. Not to mention they're both stronger and have agility and a heightened sense of awareness as well.

It's not a question for me if a slayer could easily beat Connor because it's blatantly been shown to be true in both Salvage and Orpheus. I don't need any more proof than that. So far it's 2-0 and in both fights it was never even close. And Angel has beat him 3-1 as well. And it's not like Faith and Angel were ever trying to kill him and when Angel was at the end of s4, he did.

Yikes... long post

[Emmie]

The reason why people rank Buffy so highly is because she always manages to win against these greater beings. It's not necessarily about her strength or even her fighting ability, but her ingenuity. Like how Angel says Spike's the guy no one saw coming and he should use that to his advantage in After the Fall - that's the reason why Buffy wins. They just never see her coming. Even when she's standing in front of them, they think she's just a girl with super strength and fighting abilities. Her ingenuity and ability to use her environment is what makes her impressive. She's the one who can make anything a weapon and immediately be a master at it. Like when she uses the water silo against Fray in ToYL. Or maneuvering Glory to get hit by that Mack Truck. It's not only that she's mastered fighting abilities, but she's always aware of her environment.

Anyone else remember in Batman Begins when Bruce Wayne is being trained by Raz and he keeps saying "remember your surroundings" and knocks Bruce into the icy waters because he stepped on a thin patch of ice? Buffy's the master fighter who not only remembers her surroundings, but knows how to use them to her advantage. When others are fighting her, they're not just fighting her but everything in the room she can use to take you down and in ways you're just never going to expect. This means she's constantly putting her opponents off their game, making them unsettled and unable to get a read on what she'll do next. Even when she's down, she's not out.

Buffy is the master of the surprise attack. She sets her opponents off-balance. That's why she's ranked so highly. She's the one who will overcome, who will find and exploit your weaknesses. Eventually. And even if you beat her down, she keeps on coming.

[lmblack21]

Originally Posted by vampmogs

I agree that she shouldn't be rated higher than gods and godlike creatures but she IS special. It's stated so in the text,

ANGELUS: She's stronger than any slayer you've ever faced

DRACULA: (looks a little annoyed) You know who I am. As I would now without question that you are Buffy Summers...Naturally. You're known throughout the world...Why else would I come here? For the sun? I came to meet the renowned ... killer.


FUTURE WILLOW: There's nothing the slayer can't overcome


HARTH: She's the slayer of slayers

In TLWY Buffy takes down three slayers without even trying. So she is different from other slayers and is special.

Buffy has defeated legendary vampires like Angelus, Darla, Spike and The Master. She's killed gigantic sewers monsters, the Mother Bazar, the Hellmouth monster, Caleb when The First Evil "made him a God," Faith, Fray, Doc without even looking after he just kicked Spike's ass, Razor's demon biker gang, Glory's gigantic snake demon ect.

And in Time of Your Life Buffy states that she's dreamt about every battle other slayers have fought in and knows their moves. So she may have only had 5+ years of training but she has FAR MORE experience than that. It's why fighting comes so naturally to slayers. She's a lot more than just strength. She's a trained fighter and is very aware of her surroundings. In Band Candy Buffy and Giles do the training session where he puts a blindfold over her eyes and she has to try and hit him with the ball. She does it so easily that she turns around, chucks the ball at the wall and it bounces off and hits Giles in the head. It was effortless.



Connor had no chance against Faith twice so why would he have a chance against Buffy? I don't really understand how someone can look at s4 and still think he has a chance. Remember that Angel could have killed him moments after he came out of Quortoth when he had the blade to his neck but he let him go. Faith could have killed him when she had the crossbow to his jugular but she let him go. Angel did kill him in Home when he slashed his throat.

In Spin the Bottle LIAM beat Connor when he had no memory of how to fight and only just learnt he was a vampire.

Connor has only ever defeated Angel once and that's because he had the taser, the knife and the element of surprise and Angel wasn't trying his hardest. Angel was too busy trying to talk to him when if he had wanted to he could have drowned Connor in the sea like he started to do before letting him up for air. Every other time Angel has beat him. He beat him in Home and in Inside Out and in Deep Down Connor is too scared to even try and fight Angel, even after he was severely weakened by being dumped down in the ocean for 3 months.

And we've seen how Buffy can handle more vamps than Connor at once. For a start she was fighting more Ubervamps at the same time and in Into the Woods she dusts like 8 or 9 vamps in a couple of seconds. She also dusts at least 6 at once in Sleeper. I'm pretty sure we never saw Connor dust that many vampires at the same time...

I'm sure Connor had to earn the name "The Destroyer" from being a good fighter but compared to Buffy, Faith, Angel and Spike, IMO, he just can't cut it. He's been seriously outclassed every time he's fought with one of them. Even in Tomorrow he asks Angel to train him beforehand so he'd stand a chance of fighting him on the beach, "it's all about balance remember?" And in The House Always Wins Angel is watching him fight a vamp from the rooftop and is pointing out all the mistakes he's making. Connor still had a lot to learn. Unlike Angel he doesn't have 240+ years of experience and unlike Buffy he doesn't have thousands of years worth of memories teaching him how to fight. Not to mention they're both stronger and have agility and a heightened sense of awareness as well.

It's not a question for me if a slayer could easily beat Connor because it's blatantly been shown to be true in both Salvage and Orpheus. I don't need any more proof than that. So far it's 2-0 and in both fights it was never even close. And Angel has beat him 3-1 as well. And it's not like Faith and Angel were ever trying to kill him and when Angel was at the end of s4, he did.

Yikes... long post

This. Word to every bit of this.

Buffy IS special, she IS different, and it is not "worship" to state the facts. As far as we know, Buffy is the longest living slayer around - for a reason. She is the only one that we know of who has died TWICE and is still around, kicking ass and saving the world. Connor is in no way a match, let alone superior to Buffy's skills. Buffy's physical power may not be higher than Gods, but the very fact that she is able to defeat them IN SPITE OF THAT proves how unique she is. To me it's a no-brainer. Buffy vs a God and Buffy wins, ergo, Buffy is the stronger warrior. Yes, there were some deus ex machinas, but all that proves is that Buffy is a SMART warrior as well. There is more to Buffy's powers than physical strength.

For me, Buffy for the win - because I didn't take this poll to be just about physical strength but all the elements of a character that make them the strongest fighter and for me, that will always be Buffy.

-Luc

[buffylover]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

.
Yes, but the Jossverse pretty much contradicted itself within the same season timescale as Season 7 of Buffy and Season 4 of Angel took place at the same time by having Jasmine state that she along with a number of other Powers That Be where the first beings here on earth since the time of creation and the arrival of the forces that are now known as Good and Evil.

yeah but it, lurked in the darkness long before the universe was even created.
The first has being around since the universe has been created. (Not the earth ) , so Jamine could be the first!.
Na i don't think so, because she should be in Buffy season 7 , W&H are takeing care of Angel.
I don't think Jasmine is older then the first.

[stormwreath]

Buffy has the magical power of Title Character Plot Immunity, which makes her the most powerful. But apart from that...

I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish between Jasmine, Illyria and Glory as they were at the height of their powers. They were all godlike beings who were effectively the rulers of their own dimensions - except maybe Jasmine, who rebelled and left the Powers That Be because she wanted to rule her own dimension and they wouldn't let her...

As we saw them on the show, Glory was physically the strongest, but she didn't have many other powers. But before she was trapped on Earth, who knows what she could do?

Illyria was likewise trapped in Fred's body, instead of the 20-metre tall tentacled horror she used to inhabit. But she was an undefeated warrior king back in the days when True Demons stalked the earth, so presumably was pretty strong... And her time-control powers were a big force multiplier.

Jasmine doesn't seem as physically strong, but that's perhaps because she personally disliked volence and so doesn't indulge in it. She has by far the strongest magical powers of the three that we've seen, with her mass brainwashing of millions of people - not to mention that via her minions she was able to blot out the sun, cause a rain of fire, and so forth. And only her own blood could defeat her, which is a pretty impressive immunity.

As for Willow - I think that at her peak she's more powerful than any of them, but she doesn't have the reserves of strength to sustain a long-drawn out fight. She managed to hurt Glory in S5, but it used up all her power and left her helpless. But at the end of S6, when she's learned to tap into the cosmic energies of the Earth and control them directly? A rematch with Glorificus might go very differently...

[Vampire in Rug]

Glory, Jasmine and Illyria would wipe the floor with anyone else on that list with the possible excption of Willow. The three godesses are in a league of their own.

Glory toppled a building by stamping. I think that's the biggest display of physical strength we've seen from anyone in the Buffyverse. Illyria also toppled a building when she morphed back into her true form. Jasmine can hurl cars around. Nobody else on that list can compete with the "big three" in terms of physical strength.

Willow is as close as it gets, and even then I think she's struggling to keep up with them. Vampmogs, I don't think that was the god Osiris that Willow "destroyed". The script simply reffered to him as "a demon". And we don't know that he was destroyed, I think he just disapeared back to his dimension. Willow draws her power from various sources when she's doing her spells. Sometimes it's gods like Athena or Hecate, sometimes it's the Earth, sometimes it's the people around her and sometimes it's magic books. My point is, Willow's big flashy stuff isn't innate. She was only able to burn the Earth to a cinder because the Sisters of Proserpexa had that temple set up on Kingmans Bluff. Willow's power also drains if she uses too much magics.

I'd rank them:

1) Illyria
2) Glory
3) Jasmine
4) Willow
5) Buffy
6) Faith
7) Kendra
8) Anyanka
9) Darla

[Michael]

Buffy has the kind of power that includes but transcends physical strength. There is a touch of royalty about her, a capacity to inspire love and to motivate people to do things they would never have imagined doing before. She has the kind of power that changes the course of history. When she met Willow and Xander she, in effect, "called" them to a higher purpose and destiny.

[buffylover]

This is mine :

1) Willow
2) Buffy/Glory
3) Illyria
4) Jasmine
5) Anyaka
6) Faith
7) Kendra
8) Darla

[Vampmaster]

Originally Posted by Nina

True, but the same happened to Illyria who is no god. We talk here about three godlike creatures with different kind of powers. I agree that Glory's powers must be more than what we saw, but at the same time we have no idea how much stronger she was. Of course we can assume that she was incredible strong. But we don't know... what we do know is that Glory is hardly one of those neutral wise creatures that are the PtB. Age doesn't say anything, Glory was not the brighest of the bunch. Even if she is equal to Illyria and Jasmine in the power department, she will always lose in the brain department which will be her end if she fights real equals.

Yes, but other old ones went to war against Illyria and won not other Gods. Which proves that both are incredibly powerful members of their kind, but it does not prove that Illyria at full power is the same as a God. Another thing to note is that Glory was powerful enough that it took only herself and two other God’s to reign supreme over an entire hell dimension, whereas from what the show implied Illyria and a number of other old ones ruled the earth during her time. And I agree about Glory’s lack of brains would have her at a disadvantage against those of a similar or equal strength as it is likely this which got her thrown out of her own dimension in the first place. But I still think a fully fledged God would beat what is in effect a really powerful demon

True, but we also know that the Powers that Be are not trying very hard. According to Jasmine they do almost nothing beyond observing. Glory and Illyria are powerful, you will never hear me say that they are not. But there is a reason why the Powers that Be are still on full power and the other two aren't. The Powers that Be are never beated, like the other two are. There is no reason to look back and say that Glory and Illyria were once really powerful as well. Tjose times are over, they are beaten... destroyed. They are still alive but no longer godlike. Jasmine still owned all her powers until her name was revealed. That is the big difference.

The Powers That Be as a whole are incredibly powerful and are probably the most powerful force in the buffyverse. I’m not trying to suggest that this isn’t the case. What I am saying is that I feel that the depowered Jasmine we met in Season 4 wouldn’t be capable of winning against Glory and Illyria as they have her beat in the physical department and I doubt that her other abilities such as making those who see her fall in love with her, or the eating thing would work on them.

Like I just said, Jasmine had still the power to return to her old state. Glory and Illyria are defeated, stuck in human bodies and they should be happy with it. Glory had maybe the chance to return just like Illyria in other dimensions, but Jasmine had the power in this dimension. Also the Powers That Be were bested because they chose to leave this dimension due to their neutral nature when the time of humanity came.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but may I ask where the evidence of her being able to return to her Power That Be form is? Jasmine didn’t have her full powers beyond the ones we seen in this dimension, if she did why didn’t she influence fate so that Fred would be compelled to come to her like we know she has influenced fate in the past? Or why didn’t she just kill Fred on the spot? Because she no longer has access to these powers in this realm, Gunn and the gang theorises as such shortly after finding out about her involvement in the past few years of their life and the show never does say anything to contradict these theory. In fact they later prove it to be right through her defeat.

A) Illyria is unlikely because Fred's soul is destroyed but Glory has still the soulled Ben in her and will be influenced. Jasmine wanted soulled creatures, that why only Angel was influenced.

B)We don't know Jasmine's physical powers before she was destroyed in 'Peace Out'. But those were undoubtly more impressive than the car throwing we saw. Her name did so much more than removing the lovespell.

C) Why not? We don't know how the eating happened.

a) At least we both agree on Illyria and I imagine that when she takes the Glory form she wouldn’t be affected, but when she takes the Ben one she would be. Of course this means there is nothing to stop her from killing Ben through natural means at this point.

B) While one could argue that she did have more powers unfortunately we never saw any which would probably lead us into a discussion filled with maybes, or what ifs without substantial canon evidence lol.

C) You’re right but I can’t imagine she is capable of eating creatures who aren’t under her will? Why didn’t she do this to Angels Investigations? Or better yet why didn’t she do it to the Vampires and Demons who weren’t under her will. It would have certainly stopped the moral dilemma of the one for the many something I’m sure Jasmine would have been glad of since she genuinely thought she was helping humanity.

Not a real reaction to you but;

I always have a hard time believing that Willow somehoww can find access to powers Illyria can't, while she owns those powers out of herself. Why can't Illyria fly on earth (we know she can do it in ATF hell) but Willow can? And how is it possible that Fred's body couldn't deal with thosekind of powers but that Willow never had trouble with her body. *sigh* But if Illyria can have access to her real powers, Willow is nowhere....

I have faced this problem in the past and the best I can do is come up with a fanwank, which is basically the difference between them is the source of the power. The magicks that Willow is accessing exist outside of her and come from various sources whether it’s the earth, various God’s such as Osiris during the spell that resurrected Buffy, Hecate or Isis. She is only able to access a certain amount of magick at one time before coming drained out which could be seen as the bodies way of preventing itself from being filled with so much power it will explode. Illyria’s powers on the other hand are of demonic origin in the same way that the visions were and as a result both of these powers nearly killed the human host which was incapable of withholding them. Another worrying thing about Illyria’s power is that unlike Willow’s magic which is only accessed while she is casting a spell Illyria’s powers are inherent and are within her all the time meaning the body doesn’t get the break. Willow does between spells. Of course this is all my own logic to explain it and certainly shouldn’t be taken as fact 

I never got the Buffy worship, in some lists in this thread she is rated higher than gods and godlike creatures. Why is Buffy so special? What did she ever do that makes her this supreme warrior. Both Glory and Adam are not beaten by her bare hands with only a normal weapon. Glory was defeated by a Deus-ex-machina and Adam by magic and the powers of other. Sorry to say, but the most of her huge victories were dumb luck/writerfiats. Her biggest victory that was not based on luck/special super weapons/plotholes must be the Ubervamp or Angelus. Connor did beat Sahjan with nothing but a random axe. He did beat Angel without any weapon. I don't see much difference.

I can’t speak for others but the reason I place Buffy so high isn’t due to her power which is as I have said on more than one occasion not in the same league as the Goddess, or even Willow for that matter. But for her ability to improvise and make use of the resources she does have available to her such as the slayer spell, the trolls hammer, the spell to summon the power of the first slayer etc. Buffy has shown she can hold her own against superior opponents such as Glory, Adam, Uber Vamps and Caleb not because of her sheer power but because of her ingenuity and willingness to use all that is available to her

Originally Posted by vampmogs

Can I just ask something…what are we debating here? Are we debating about who’s the most powerful character as they stand NOW or are we debating about them at the height of their power? Because it makes a huge difference in the discussion and I'm getting confused

That’s a good question Mogs and I personally think its best debating their abilities at the height of their powers within this dimension. Since it’s not fair to judge fully powered Jasmine who caused Connors birth against earth bound Illyria and Glory, and if we are to debate things as they stand. Then you’d be right Willow would be the most powerful followed by post time bomb powered Illyria followed by Buffy and the other slayers since Jasmine and Glory are dead And if were using the resurrection argument what’s to stop them from rising with the powers we initially saw them with? .

Weaknesses: Her parents Cordelia and Connor. Connor can kill her with a single punch andCordy's blood broke her hold over everyone.

I’d also argue Connor’s blood would have the same effect as Cordelia’s since we know he was able to see Jasmine’s true form from the start likely due to his relation to Jasmine and the blood flowing through him.

Strengths: She's so strong she can punch a hole through somebody's head and make it explode. She knows many different martial arts such as tae kwon do and Brazilian Ninjitsu. It's unclear wether she's immortal or not but since it isn't stated it's a "no."

I’d argue that it’s been heavily implied on multiple occasions that Illyria is indeed immortal. Firstly during the time of her and the other old ones the most they could do was cause their opponents to flee to other dimensions or trap them within the confines of the deeper well. While we know Illyria is now a lot weaker all they ever talked about as a possibility when she came back was returning her to the well rather than trying to kill her outright. So until the comics state otherwise I’m assuming she’s immortal.

WILLOW:
Strengths: Willow can thicken the air around her opponent making it impossible for them to move.

It’s unlikely this would work on either Jasmine or Illyria since we have already seen Glory is capable of punching her way through one of Willow’s barrier when she feels the need to during “Spiral”

Yay! At least we agree on something!

Hehe Agreement is always good.

Originally Posted by buffylover

yeah but it, lurked in the darkness long before the universe was even created.
The first has being around since the universe has been created. (Not the earth ) , so Jamine could be the first!.

Na i don't think so, because she should be in Buffy season 7 , W&H are takeing care of Angel.

I don't think Jasmine is older then the first.

That’s actually a good point. Maybe the First was in existence first, but Jasmine and the other Powers were present in this particular universe first if that makes sense? Like the first existed in another dimension or plane of existence until the concept of evil was introduced to our world after the time of the powers?

Whew long post do you guys know how to make a guy think about his response

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Vampmaster

It’s unlikely this would work on either Jasmine or Illyria since we have already seen Glory is capable of punching her way through one of Willow’s barrier when she feels the need to during “Spiral”

But the thicken spell actually worked on Glory, twice. She used it when she first entered the room, "Kali, Hera, Kronos, Tonic... Air like nectar, thick as onyx... Cassiel by your second star... Hold mine victim as in tar" and Glory was frozen in surprise and then when Willow and Buffy were running Willow cries out "Thicken!" and Glory's unable to chase after them, screaming "this isn't over you here me! It isn't over!"

I could be wrong (as I guess we’ll never know) but I don’t think Glory would be able to punch a hole through Willow’s barriers anymore. I think she’d have a lot harder time breaking one of s8 Willow’s spells than she did s5 Willow. Even from s5-s6 there was a huge jump in her power.

We should have a "Battle Arena" special episode for all these gals Lock them all in a room and see who's left standing! Just to satisfy all of our curiosity

EDIT: I just did my Issue #15 re-read in the comics section and I realised that there is somebody who I think can match Willow's power! Both Kumiko and Saga Vasuki! So I'd actually say Kumiko may be a tad stronger than her (she whips Willow's butt) and Vasuki surley is! I think I've changed my answer slightly

[Vampmaster]

That's one of the things which have always annoyed me about Season 5 is that Glory is shown to be unable to get through Willow's magical barriers in the instances you mentioned earlier in "Tough Love" and again Willow manages to successfully hold her back in "Spiral". In fact Willow is even able to send Glory flying back to allow time for her and Tara to escape. Yet at the end of the same episode Glory is able to effortlessly with one punch make her way through Willow's shield. Despite the fact that the show implies on numerous occasions that the spell Willow was using this time was both stronger and would last for a longer period of time.

The only thing I can think of is that on the earlier occasions Glory was being pulled back from hurting the scooby gang by that little tang of humanity from Ben as she never appeared to actually try to force her way through the sheilds, instead she was just feeling them. Whereas at the end of "Spiral" she is forceful in her attack on the sheild as she is now filled with a sense of purpose which Ben's humanity can not suppress getting Dawn away from the scoobie gang so that she can use her key abilities to return her home

Again I think Glory would still be able to punch her way through the barriers set up by Willow though it might now take her a couple of punches and kickes to break it rather than just the one . As for your special arena idea of locking them in a little room together that sounds like an excellent idea . Someone should suggest it to Joss sometime when he is having an interview with the fans

[Vampire in Rug]

Wasn't a Turok-Han able to punch it's way through Willow's barrier in season seven? Yes, I absolutly think that a goddess could outmuscle Willow's magic given enough time.

[buffylover]

Originally Posted by Vampire in Rug

Wasn't a Turok-Han able to punch it's way through Willow's barrier in season seven? Yes, I absolutly think that a goddess could outmuscle Willow's magic given enough time.

No, becuase , Willow and Buffy did that on purpose. To show the slayers a lesson.

quoted Dawn

"This... You planned this. Letting
the barrier fail. Bringing us here.
You and Buffy..."
But the Turok Han was the only villain to knock out Buffy.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Originally Posted by Vampire in Rug

Wasn't a Turok-Han able to punch it's way through Willow's barrier in season seven?

Not really. That was part of the set-up between Willow, Buffy, and Xander.