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8x23 Sacrifice

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Rosely View Post
    Just finished my season 8 re-watch, and this last episode Sacrifice bugs me. Or actually what really bugs me is the way the writers have Castiel being foolish again for the sake of the plot.
    How can I take the friendship between Dean and Cas serious, if the writers don't take the character serious?

    Like from the Clip Show
    Cas: "Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing"
    Dean: "Yeah, you always do"

    And again, the next episode, Cas thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't know who to trust and foolishly helps Metatron with a stupid spell to cast all angels out. The first "trial" to kill an innocent, that should've raised questions...
    I don't understand why the writers often choose to make Castiel so dumb, and in other situations he knows everything and is very wise. It's very inconsistent and very annoying. And I understand why people can't connect with the character, it is just not written very well. And for Dean to always forgive and get past it, even though that's a very important quality of him, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't like what the writers have done with the character of Castiel over the years. I used to really like the guy, but he has been lying, been foolishly misled, destroyed Heaven and now casted all Angels out in a stupid action...

    Don't get me wrong, it's good to write a character with flaws, like Sam and Dean have obvious flaws. They lie to each other, they do stupid things, they kill innocent people to kill a demon, Dean was prepared to kill Kevins mother to kill Crowley, but then Dean won't let Sammie die to shut the gates of hell... It makes characters layered and often likeable (sometimes not..).

    But the thing that annoys me to the max is how stupid the writers make Castiel, and how that is causing me to not like the character, while I used to love him in seasons 4 and 5.
    (And the brainwashing by Naomi is not an issue to me, I felt sorry for Cas for that, and was proud at him for not killing Dean and fighting against it).


    I needed to get that off my chest
    Oh I totally get the frustration you are feeling! In fact I was so close to giving up on the series entirely due to how angered I have become over their treatment of Castiel. I think part of it is the current team are just not that creative and like to make use of old ideas even with Sam and Dean parts of their characterisation are in a rut!

    But I can see why Cas was manipulated by Metatron, not only has he been crippled with overwhelming guilt for his actions in seasons six and season seven but he is scared and angry having to hide because of Naomi. With this scared, guilty and angry mindset in mind I can see why Castiel clung to it when Metatron came along and told him he could help to heal the damage he had caused by locking the angels in heaven and forcing them to talk. This was finally a chance for him to earn some sort of redemption for the mistakes of his past something we know from both A Little Slice of Kevin and Hunteri Heroici he wants desperately. As for his ignoring Naomi's warning well to be fair who are you going to believe the guy who at this point had always seemed friendly or the manipulative b*tch who has been mind-raping you for God knows how long?
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
      As for his ignoring Naomi's warning well to be fair who are you going to believe the guy who at this point had always seemed friendly or the manipulative b*tch who has been mind-raping you for God knows how long?
      I understand he didn't believe Naomi, but Kevin had been translating, and had JUST before that said that he didn't find anything about the bow of Cupid or killing the innocent half angel (I've forgotten how they were called). So Cas could've at least waited for Kevin to finish reading, tried to figure out what those two steps could've been and help Dean with Sam...

      And I my believes, the old better written Cas would've done that, and not jump to conclusions and be hasty this much...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Rosely View Post
        Just finished my season 8 re-watch, and this last episode Sacrifice bugs me. Or actually what really bugs me is the way the writers have Castiel being foolish again for the sake of the plot.
        How can I take the friendship between Dean and Cas serious, if the writers don't take the character serious?

        Like from the Clip Show
        Cas: "Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing"
        Dean: "Yeah, you always do"

        And again, the next episode, Cas thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't know who to trust and foolishly helps Metatron with a stupid spell to cast all angels out. The first "trial" to kill an innocent, that should've raised questions...
        I don't understand why the writers often choose to make Castiel so dumb, and in other situations he knows everything and is very wise. It's very inconsistent and very annoying. And I understand why people can't connect with the character, it is just not written very well. And for Dean to always forgive and get past it, even though that's a very important quality of him, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't like what the writers have done with the character of Castiel over the years. I used to really like the guy, but he has been lying, been foolishly misled, destroyed Heaven and now casted all Angels out in a stupid action...

        Don't get me wrong, it's good to write a character with flaws, like Sam and Dean have obvious flaws. They lie to each other, they do stupid things, they kill innocent people to kill a demon, Dean was prepared to kill Kevins mother to kill Crowley, but then Dean won't let Sammie die to shut the gates of hell... It makes characters layered and often likeable (sometimes not..).

        But the thing that annoys me to the max is how stupid the writers make Castiel, and how that is causing me to not like the character, while I used to love him in seasons 4 and 5.
        (And the brainwashing by Naomi is not an issue to me, I felt sorry for Cas for that, and was proud at him for not killing Dean and fighting against it).


        I needed to get that off my chest
        I agree!!!

        This final arc of Metatron exacting his own revenge by having Cas yet again ignore Dean really frustrated me. I had been quite happy with the writing otherwise and this just feels repetitive in a bad way. Sometimes repetition brings up themes but this feels like recycled plot device. OMG! A powerful angel is deceitful and has a personal agenda? Never would have expected it. Cas ignores Dean showing no trust or respect for his opinion? Who could believe that?! [/sarcasm]

        There could have been other ways of bringing about the fallen angels storyline that wouldnt have used one or both of these overused plot devices. Even having Cas not specifically defy Dean's order to wait would have been preferable and would have showed character growth. Cas mad at Dean for waiting and it still happening would have at least been a new dynamic.

        Originally posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
        As for his ignoring Naomi's warning well to be fair who are you going to believe the guy who at this point had always seemed friendly or the manipulative b*tch who has been mind-raping you for God knows how long?
        Imo, Cas is supposed to trust in Dean. It shouldnt be an "either or" situation between Naomi and Metatron. :/


        Ultimately, I dont know if the writers are afraid of upsetting balances in fandom, but I would have preferred Cas to have made wrong choices out of personal vendetta as opposed to the misguided belief of it being for the greater good. I hate having to repeatedly forgive him as a poor nascent soul who just thinks he is doing what is right. If he is human this season, he better have some real character growth whether positive or negative traits.

        Lydia made the punch!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Rosely View Post
          I understand he didn't believe Naomi, but Kevin had been translating, and had JUST before that said that he didn't find anything about the bow of Cupid or killing the innocent half angel (I've forgotten how they were called). So Cas could've at least waited for Kevin to finish reading, tried to figure out what those two steps could've been and help Dean with Sam...

          And I my believes, the old better written Cas would've done that, and not jump to conclusions and be hasty this much...
          Well first off just to confirm I am in complete and utter agreement about the poor quality of the writing and think things could have been done much better. But since were stuck with what we have got I have to try and see things from Cas' perspective

          As for why Castiel did not wait on Kevin you have to remember that Cas did not know the time frame it would take Kevin to complete his translation of the tablet. As Kevin himself says earlier in the episode it took him six months to complete translating even apart of the demon tablet or to put it into perspective he had the tablet for fourteen episodes before discovering the demon trials. In that light I don't think it is that unreasonable for Castiel to not want to wait for what could be months when the only word he had at this point was the word of a woman who had been mind raping him for a millennia.

          Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
          I agree!!!

          This final arc of Metatron exacting his own revenge by having Cas yet again ignore Dean really frustrated me. I had been quite happy with the writing otherwise and this just feels repetitive in a bad way. Sometimes repetition brings up themes but this feels like recycled plot device. OMG! A powerful angel is deceitful and has a personal agenda? Never would have expected it. Cas ignores Dean showing no trust or respect for his opinion? Who could believe that?! [/sarcasm]

          There could have been other ways of bringing about the fallen angels storyline that wouldnt have used one or both of these overused plot devices. Even having Cas not specifically defy Dean's order to wait would have been preferable and would have showed character growth. Cas mad at Dean for waiting and it still happening would have at least been a new dynamic.



          Imo, Cas is supposed to trust in Dean. It shouldnt be an "either or" situation between Naomi and Metatron. :/


          Ultimately, I dont know if the writers are afraid of upsetting balances in fandom, but I would have preferred Cas to have made wrong choices out of personal vendetta as opposed to the misguided belief of it being for the greater good. I hate having to repeatedly forgive him as a poor nascent soul who just thinks he is doing what is right. If he is human this season, he better have some real character growth whether positive or negative traits.
          I don't think the purpose of this scene was meant to be about Castiel not trusting Dean's judgement. This was an entirely different situation to say season six when he went behind Dean's back and purposely kept secrets from him through lies and half truths, or even earlier in the season when he fled with the angel tablet. In fact he was before this quite open and trusting of Dean in this episode inviting him to help him deal with the cupid or trusting his judgement when Dean advised going for negotiation rather than killing. In hindsight considering the lack of danger that mission posed I think Castiel may have even sub-consciously wanted this chance to be open and say goodbye to Dean.

          And also we have to remember it was not as though Dean was opposed to the concept of Castiel completing the 'angel trials' in fact before Naomi's speech he had been actively helping him. It was only when Naomi told them the truth that Dean started to have doubts and considering the fact Cas knows better than anyone how manipulative she can be from his dealings with her is it really that surprising he wasn't as inclined to agree with Dean who was only going by Naomi's word? I know in Cas' situation I wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth either.

          However I do agree that a much better way of handling it would have been for Cas to listen to Dean's orders and for disaster to have happened anyway making Dean for once in the wrong and establishing a new dynamic. The 'saint Dean' trope not just with Cas but also with Sam is getting beyond old and grating to me
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          • #35
            'Whatever details you alter, we will always end up...here.''
            ''The angels aren't listening, they just left, gave up.''- Future Dean
            ''Dean, I'm not an angel anymore...I went mortal''- Future Cas

            The same things are happening, Details are just being altered.
            I know i keep mentioning this but i really think this is the end-game here.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Rosely View Post
              Just finished my season 8 re-watch, and this last episode Sacrifice bugs me. Or actually what really bugs me is the way the writers have Castiel being foolish again for the sake of the plot.
              How can I take the friendship between Dean and Cas serious, if the writers don't take the character serious?

              Like from the Clip Show
              Cas: "Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing"
              Dean: "Yeah, you always do"

              And again, the next episode, Cas thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't know who to trust and foolishly helps Metatron with a stupid spell to cast all angels out. The first "trial" to kill an innocent, that should've raised questions...
              I don't understand why the writers often choose to make Castiel so dumb, and in other situations he knows everything and is very wise. It's very inconsistent and very annoying. And I understand why people can't connect with the character, it is just not written very well. And for Dean to always forgive and get past it, even though that's a very important quality of him, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't like what the writers have done with the character of Castiel over the years. I used to really like the guy, but he has been lying, been foolishly misled, destroyed Heaven and now casted all Angels out in a stupid action...

              Don't get me wrong, it's good to write a character with flaws, like Sam and Dean have obvious flaws. They lie to each other, they do stupid things, they kill innocent people to kill a demon, Dean was prepared to kill Kevins mother to kill Crowley, but then Dean won't let Sammie die to shut the gates of hell... It makes characters layered and often likeable (sometimes not..).

              But the thing that annoys me to the max is how stupid the writers make Castiel, and how that is causing me to not like the character, while I used to love him in seasons 4 and 5.
              (And the brainwashing by Naomi is not an issue to me, I felt sorry for Cas for that, and was proud at him for not killing Dean and fighting against it).


              I needed to get that off my chest
              All this (which I'm not happy about either, even though it doesn't make me dislike Cas, it makes me dislike the writers and their lack of talent) is because, after season 5, TPTB seems to have struggled for ideas. How do you reboot a show that had reached its natural end??

              I think the fact that most people (except Chris ) hated season 6 and 7 illutrates this struggle.

              After season 5, they seem to not have known what to do with Castiel (Gamble apparently didn't want him in the show, since she tried to write him off uncerimoniously), and they have used Castiel as a scapegoat to blame for everything that goes wrong, and catalyst to drive most of the mytharc.

              In season 6, it was the (sadly off-screen) civil war in heaven and Castiel's consequent alliance with Crowley that drove the action. Cas brought back Sam soulless from the cage (which wasn't the original plan, from what I have read... Cas wasn't supposed to have been the one to do it, but then they decided for that), resulting in soulless Sam. Cas broke Sam wall, resulting in Sam's madness.

              In season 7, Cas became Godstiel and then "died", releasing the Leviathans, who were the season villains/mytharc.
              Cas was out of the picture, but the consequences of his actions were still driving the story: Sam's deteriorating health (complete with Lucifer allucinations), the Leviathans plotting to take over the world, and at the end Cas and Dean finally ending up in Purgatory.

              In season 8, Cas, by trusting Metatron, unwittingly causes the fall of the angels, which is going to be the mytharc for season 9.

              So Castiel is rarely on screen (because he is too powerful is the official excuse), but when he is (99% of the time in mytharc-heavy episodes, which most of the time don't allow for much character work ) he is used as a plot device to make things happen (most often than not, negative things. They turned him from a righteous, heroic character to a bumbling fool who makes mistake after mistake, with the risk of turning tragedy into farse), at the detriment of character consistency and character development. I deeply resent that. This isn't the way to treat a character that most of the fandom cares about (to the point where many think of him as a third lead).

              It's only because I still have some hope left that things are going to change for the better that I don't wish him off the show. But if season 9 continues on this trend, I'll say that all hope is lost and that it would have been way better for the character not to return after season 5.
              Last edited by Francy; 08-09-13, 08:59 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by mikey121 View Post
                'Whatever details you alter, we will always end up...here.''
                ''The angels aren't listening, they just left, gave up.''- Future Dean
                ''Dean, I'm not an angel anymore...I went mortal''- Future Cas

                The same things are happening, Details are just being altered.
                I know i keep mentioning this but i really think this is the end-game here.
                Hmm there were actually

                General S9
                Spoiler:
                spoiler pictures released for 9x02 that several people thought looked like they were based in the endverse due to the background.


                Guess we shall have to see what happens?
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