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8x23 Sacrifice

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  • 8x23 Sacrifice

    Whoa! That ending was so beautiful. In fact,the whole episode looked good from the devil's chili billboard to the abandoned church to the strange crucifix. I wish the show always had a budget llke this! But the dark skies full of falling stars was breathtaking.

    I was so happy to see Abaddon return! She was fantastically bold and powerful. I loved seeing her stomp all over Crowley and tell him she was ready to take over. I hated to see Sam torch her so no more Alaina Huffman. But even that was beautiful imagery with her smoking out. I swear, when Abaddon returns, they better keep her rough edged fashion style.

    I loved the twist that Castiel wasnt doing the angel tablet trials! Metatron really did have his own agenda! I didnt think he was that crafty. Wow, how chilling it was when he told Castiel to come find him after he died to tell him his story! That was scarier than most any threat on the show.

    OMG, that speech by Dean to Sam, was one of the most touching on this show. I dont usually get moved by these type moments but this one was ridiculously powerful and perfectly said!

    I am not sure how I feel that Sam's deteriorating condition could be alleviated by Sam just letting it go. I wonder if that was temporary and Sam will need some help to become healthy again next season.

    The one thing that did disappoint me in retrospect is that we spent over a season focused on completing these demon trials to just completely abandon them. *sigh* I was so looking forward to being done with demons.

    So many more feelings, it is hard process it all.

    Lydia made the punch!

  • #2
    I agree, all the falling angels was both visually stunning and moving to watch. I'm not sure how I feel about many other aspects of the episode, though I agree it was very visually appealing. I really loved the gambit they played to meet with Crowley and then save him for the third trial, and it was kind of cool to see Crowley regain some humanity. But I'm just going to say it- sometimes it's appropriate to consider the greater good, and Sam should have completed the trials even if it meant he would die. Dean was ready to die doing the trials, as he explicitly stated. To be able to rid the world forever of demons? That's something worth the sacrifice. He would go to Heaven. There are worse things.

    I was disappointed that Castiel was once again led astray, and pretty easily at that. It makes me sad that an angel who so consistently wants to do the right thing and atone for his mistakes keep making things worse every time he tries. To me it seemed like they all trusted Metatron far too quickly.

    BTW, I absolutely LOVED the fact that when they were waiting for cupid to show up, it was the two big burly men who were going to fall in love.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
      I was so happy to see Abaddon return! She was fantastically bold and powerful. I loved seeing her stomp all over Crowley and tell him she was ready to take over. I hated to see Sam torch her so no more Alaina Huffman. But even that was beautiful imagery with her smoking out. I swear, when Abaddon returns, they better keep her rough edged fashion style.
      I have to agree that was a pretty enjoyable scene if only for the fact that we finally got to see someone give Crowley a good beating. I wonder what will happen with Crowley and Abaddon next season... With Crowley mostly humanised (Sam got to the final dosage before giving up didnt' he?) will he start to work with the boys fighting against a hell Abbadon has already taken over? Or will the demon plot involve more of a constant power struggle between the two with the boys having to fight both?

      I loved the twist that Castiel wasnt doing the angel tablet trials! Metatron really did have his own agenda! I didnt think he was that crafty. Wow, how chilling it was when he told Castiel to come find him after he died to tell him his story! That was scarier than most any threat on the show.
      I on the other hand hated that the writers opted to once again go down the "idiot Cas got led astray and didn't listen to the brothers" route Still I did feel sorry for Cas in his scene with Metatron. Personally I think his arc for next season will be trying to get his grace back and fix up the mess he caused by making the angels fall from the heavens. Especially if the writers opt for making the fallen angels the big threat of next season rather than having them disappear quietly into the background...

      I am not sure how I feel that Sam's deteriorating condition could be alleviated by Sam just letting it go. I wonder if that was temporary and Sam will need some help to become healthy again next season.
      But was it alleviating Sam's health? I've only watched the episode once so perhaps I misinterpreted things, but I was under the impression that the brothers hugged and then Sam collapsed and had to be dragged outside in some sort of pain. It suggested to me that abandoning the trials and recovering Sam's health was not going to be as simple as "letting go" like Dean suggested in his speech.

      The one thing that did disappoint me in retrospect is that we spent over a season focused on completing these demon trials to just completely abandon them. *sigh* I was so looking forward to being done with demons.
      I agree! There seems to be a mixed feeling amongst fans about that decision from what I've seen some fans appear to appreciate that Dean put Sam first while others see it as a selfish decision that undermines what others such as Kevin have lost over the course of the season and makes the whole thing pointless! I can understand where both parties are coming from. On the one hand in terms of story-telling it is rather unsatisfying for them to suddenly drop something they've spent so long on, but on the other hand I don't think the brothers decision was that selfish. It definitely was in a sense but as we know from Swan Song Sam and Dean both are prepared to put the world first when it comes to saving it, but these trials were never about saving the world rather they were hoping to change it and thus I have no real issues with them choosing to save Sam's life. As Dean says even from undergoing the trials they've learnt a number of new things which will still give the brothers a new advantage in the battle against demons

      What do the rest of you think of the brothers decision to stop the trials?

      Originally posted by gregor View Post
      But I'm just going to say it- sometimes it's appropriate to consider the greater good, and Sam should have completed the trials even if it meant he would die. Dean was ready to die doing the trials, as he explicitly stated. To be able to rid the world forever of demons? That's something worth the sacrifice. He would go to Heaven. There are worse things.
      See above for my thoughts on this Plus I think a large part of Sam's decision to stop wasn't that he was too cowardly or "afraid" to die, but that he didn't want to let Dean down again. He knows the damage his death would have done to Dean's psyche and he wanted to save his brother from that pain especially since unlike Swan Song his death wasn't required to save the world. The status quo will simply remain which is a lot less selfish a decision than had Sam decided to let the world burn as long as he gets to live a bit longer

      I was disappointed that Castiel was once again led astray, and pretty easily at that. It makes me sad that an angel who so consistently wants to do the right thing and atone for his mistakes keep making things worse every time he tries. To me it seemed like they all trusted Metatron far too quickly.
      Agreed
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      • #4
        Originally posted by gregor View Post
        But I'm just going to say it- sometimes it's appropriate to consider the greater good, and Sam should have completed the trials even if it meant he would die. Dean was ready to die doing the trials, as he explicitly stated. To be able to rid the world forever of demons? That's something worth the sacrifice. He would go to Heaven. There are worse things.
        I have to agree with Bittersweettwit on that one. Sam was absolutely prepared to die for the cause. His 'So?' when Dean told him that he would die if he completed the trial clearly illustrated that he had already accepted his death. In the end he abandons the cause for Dean's sake. He chooses to live for Dean, in a beautiful reverse parallel to Swan Song, where he chose to die for Dean (and the world). Is closing the gates of hell worthy of a sacrifice? Absolutely! Is it a necessary sacrifice? Not at all. Is it selfish for Sam and Dean to put their own needs first for once? I don't think so. Given what the brothers have already sacrificed in the past 30+ years, I think they have every right to choose each other in this particular situation.

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        • #5
          I was a bit disappointed, to tell you the truth.
          I was expecting Sam to complete the trials and sacrifice himself but it just felt like the writers lack the courage to do that next step. I am not sure what.

          I agree that the angels falling from the sky was a nice visual but I didn´t like how Cas was duped once again.

          I am a bit scared for future seasons because they´re kinda recycling plots over and over and over.

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          • #6
            I don't follow spoilers, does anyone know if there is a projected end to the series, or are they just on a 'renew year by year' scenario?

            One thing I have to say about Metatron- while it sucks for Castiel (because we like Castiel) that he did what he did, I can see why he (Metatron) decided that the angels deserved to be cast out of Heaven. Except for Castiel and a few others, angels are usually bad guys in the series, and that is consistently disappointing to me. Metatron is probably thinking more along the same lines that God would be, if he was still around, about kicking the angels out of Heaven. But now angels are going to be humanity's problem. Did they lose their grace by falling, or will they be pretty much as they were but just unable to get into Heaven? I was not clear on that.

            I completely see what everyone is saying about it not being selfish for Dean and Sam to choose each other. I don't think it was selfish at all, I just think the other decision would have been better. I also thought it was weird that they were so surprised to find out that completing the trials would kill Sam. They had considered this possibility already and had decided to go forward regardless when it was Dean. On the other hand, considering how screwed over they have been by angels and God every time they try to follow divine instructions, I can see why they would walk away from it. There are always unintended consequences.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by gregor View Post
              I don't follow spoilers, does anyone know if there is a projected end to the series, or are they just on a 'renew year by year' scenario?
              Renewal is year by year, but the CW exec says he watches the show so I hope that means he would like it to make 10. And for such a long running show, they probably would promote the last season as a final season to bring in viewers.
              One thing I have to say about Metatron- while it sucks for Castiel (because we like Castiel) that he did what he did, I can see why he (Metatron) decided that the angels deserved to be cast out of Heaven. Except for Castiel and a few others, angels are usually bad guys in the series, and that is consistently disappointing to me. Metatron is probably thinking more along the same lines that God would be, if he was still around, about kicking the angels out of Heaven. But now angels are going to be humanity's problem. Did they lose their grace by falling, or will they be pretty much as they were but just unable to get into Heaven? I was not clear on that.
              I think it is still up in the air as to whether the angels fully lost their grace and are mortal like Castiel, or if they are only denied access to heaven's powers like Castiel in 5.04 The End, or if they are still angels but cant reach Heaven. I am quite intrigued to find out what the angels' condition will be. If the angels' grace was ripped from them, is it forever lost, or will it be able to be restored like how Anna had to go search for where her grace landed? Wheeeeeeeee! Possibilitieeeeeeees!


              I also like that Castiel's current condition will probably be different than others because Metatron did a spell using his grace.

              I completely see what everyone is saying about it not being selfish for Dean and Sam to choose each other. I don't think it was selfish at all, I just think the other decision would have been better. I also thought it was weird that they were so surprised to find out that completing the trials would kill Sam. They had considered this possibility already and had decided to go forward regardless when it was Dean. On the other hand, considering how screwed over they have been by angels and God every time they try to follow divine instructions, I can see why they would walk away from it. There are always unintended consequences.
              LOL, yeah i agree it was weird to be surprised. Sam's "So?" was utterly classic in speaking for all viewers! It was analagous to Dean earlier telling Cas, "What show have you been watching?" when asked if he should be drinking. Seriously Dean, Sam's dying was always a likely possibility. But I can see there is a difference in perspective for Dean in thinking there is only a chance compared to knowing 100% that will be the outcome.

              I loved in the speech when Dean said that they had learned so much from the trials. They really have learned some quite revolutionary things. I agree with Dean that together the Winchesters can do a lot with that knowledge while there is uncertainity of how closing hell would affect earth and humanity. So I think it was the better choice to hold off on completing the trials. They were so close and it is possible to continue it later.

              My memory is a bit sketchy, it was Metatron, not Kevin that revealed the final trial, right? If so, maybe with time, Kevin can do more translating and figure out a way to keep Sam from dying in the final trial?

              Lydia made the punch!

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              • #8
                I wonder if Crowley stays modified now- Sam did not finish saving him, so does he stay warm-and-fuzzy Crowley, or does he revert to his former self? Seems kind of mean to leave him half-saved, but of course someone else could save him without dying, just not Sam. And I suppose they could always re-start the trials if they decide it's the right thing to do. If they have to save another innocent soul from Hell, I hope they choose their brother who is locked in Lucifer's box with him. I really hate that he's stuck in there for all time. Not sure how they'd do that, but that loose end has always really bothered me.

                Plot-hole: Why didn't their arms light up when they freed their father from Hell? That should have counted as the first trial, so technically Sam has completed the trials- although I don't think he was the one who actually opened the door. But whoever opened the door did complete a trial. Do you have to do them in order?

                I'm not sure how they would do this, but if the series is going to end it would be nice if maybe God would come back from sabbatical. But I'm sure I would be disappointed with their characterization of God; he'd probably be presented as Don Corleone or something.

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                • #9
                  I was thinking that Sam would actually succeed (and we'd be rid of Crowley) and then the fallen angels would be the big problem for next season. It's not like Sam hasn't died before and I'm shocked that he didn't sacrifice himself because by not doing so the demons will continue to roam free. It's also not like Sam hasn't died before - he's already lived a lot longer than he was supposed to, he died quite a while back.

                  I want God to show up and tell them how much they've all effed things up. Where is he anyway? All the major stuff is happening and he doesn't even bother to help at all?

                  I guess there wasn't any reason not to trust Metatron, but I never really felt like I knew what his agenda was (same with Naomi).

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by buffyholic View Post
                    I was a bit disappointed, to tell you the truth.
                    I was expecting Sam to complete the trials and sacrifice himself but it just felt like the writers lack the courage to do that next step. I am not sure what.
                    Hmm see with any other show I would probably agree that it was the writers chickening out, but then this is supernatural were talking about a show where the three main characters have died multiple times. I thought that it was a nice change for a finale to not end with Dean, Sam or Castiel dead and as Galathea comments above it's a beautiful parallel to Swan Song in that while back then Sam died for his brother this time around he is living for Dean.

                    Originally posted by gregor View Post
                    One thing I have to say about Metatron- while it sucks for Castiel (because we like Castiel) that he did what he did, I can see why he (Metatron) decided that the angels deserved to be cast out of Heaven. Except for Castiel and a few others, angels are usually bad guys in the series, and that is consistently disappointing to me. Metatron is probably thinking more along the same lines that God would be, if he was still around, about kicking the angels out of Heaven. But now angels are going to be humanity's problem.
                    But didn't the conversation between Naomi and Metatron reveal that his motives were solely based on revenge? His reason for kicking the angels out of heaven was that he wanted to get his own back on them for Naomi and the arch-angels chasing him out of his home after God left? I would say that is more of a personal vendetta than an altruistic wish to complete the work of God

                    Did they lose their grace by falling, or will they be pretty much as they were but just unable to get into Heaven? I was not clear on that.
                    Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                    I think it is still up in the air as to whether the angels fully lost their grace and are mortal like Castiel, or if they are only denied access to heaven's powers like Castiel in 5.04 The End, or if they are still angels but cant reach Heaven. I am quite intrigued to find out what the angels' condition will be. If the angels' grace was ripped from them, is it forever lost, or will it be able to be restored like how Anna had to go search for where her grace landed? Wheeeeeeeee! Possibilitieeeeeeees!
                    I agree with Lyn that the episode does not make it clear what will happen to the angels now they are on earth. However, the episode does mention that they are falling 'like Lucifer' and so that's the model I'm assuming this fall will follow! Of course it could turn out I'm taking the Lucifer comparison too literally and he was simply mentioned as the angel most famous for falling from grace.

                    If I am correct though to assume the current fall will be like Lucifer's then I'd imagine that the angels will be stuck on earth fully powered, but in a non-corporal form depending on getting the consent of their vessels by communicating with them via means similar to Lucifer with Nick in Sympathy for the Devil or Castiel with Jimmy in The Rapture. We know that Castiel is human, but that's due to the fact his grace was taken from him to be used as an ingredient for the spell and not as a consequence of the spell .

                    My memory is a bit sketchy, it was Metatron, not Kevin that revealed the final trial, right? If so, maybe with time, Kevin can do more translating and figure out a way to keep Sam from dying in the final trial?
                    It was indeed Metatron who revealed the third trial at the end of The Great Escapist. However, Kevin had previously done his own independent study of the tablet and the only reason he didn't tell the brothers was simply due to the fact that Metatron stole his thunder before he got the words out. This is confirmed by the fact he previously stated to Dean he got the third trial, but didn't tell Crowley and in response to Metatron he states a confirming "Yeah" before asking who he was .

                    Originally posted by gregor View Post
                    Plot-hole: Why didn't their arms light up when they freed their father from Hell? That should have counted as the first trial, so technically Sam has completed the trials- although I don't think he was the one who actually opened the door. But whoever opened the door did complete a trial. Do you have to do them in order?
                    In real life it's simply a case of the whole trials to close the gates of hell would not even have been a figment in the writers mind at the end of season two On the show itself though the reason why John being freed from hell at the end of All Hell Breaks Loose, or Dean being freed by Castiel in Lazarus Rising would not have counted is due to the fact that as we found out in Trial and Error that the process of completing the trials can only begin after a spell has been read out loud by someone who completed the first trial
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                    • #11
                      Does everyone still hate Naomi? I thought it was a shame she died, had some potential as kind of like a villain / non villain. Sure she was evil, she brainwashed a few Angels, killed those people in the cafe, but i felt that she did the right thing in the end, in her conversation with Castiel and Dean.

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                      • #12
                        I have wanted to comment on the finale since the moment I finished watching it, but I have been in a very non-posting mood. I still am. I'm making an effort here LOL

                        Overall, I enjoyed the episode. It wasn't perfect, of course, far from it, but overall I like the direction it took the show into after a very uneven season, with more misses than hits.

                        What I liked:

                        - Crowley's almost being cured. Kudos to Mark Sheppard for a great performance!! I hope the partial cure sticks and next season we get to see a different, more human/less evil Crowley. I love Crowley, but he was getting old... this way we get to keep him without his "muahaha" moustache-twirling shenanigans.

                        - Kevin survived!!!!!!!!

                        - The melancholic Dean/Cas bar scene. I'm glad Dean's rage has boiled down a bit, and that Cas went to him for help (better late than never... even though I'm not very clear on why Dean was particularly needed here). We need more friendship and quiet scenes between these two... it can't just be angst and myth-arc related stuff all the time.

                        - The gay couple being the target of Cupid's mission was sweet. Heaven-endorsed same-sex relationships.. how progressive of the show. If only they stopped queerbaiting, it would be even better.

                        - The angels being cast out of heaven. I never saw that twist coming! Well done, Carver and co! I knew Metatron was up to no good (long gone were my illusions of him being a good angel, for a change) and I knew that the brothers and Cas had gotten duped again (seriously, enough of that... I'm one of the biggest Cas fans around, andI'm starting to be fed up with him because of his constant f*ck-ups. There's a point where tragedy becomes a farce, and the writers are dangerously close to crossing that line with his character..if they haven't already.), but I didn't expect that move on Metatron's part or for him to be such a badass villain. He's promising as big bad, if they use him well next year. He can also go eff himself, though. As Dean would say, son of a b*tch. You stole Cas's grace, among other things!

                        - The last 5 minutes with the batcave alarms setting off, and the angels falling like shooting stars was visually stunning; along with the music and Dean/Sam/Cas looking at the sky, it gave me goosebumps.
                        It will be interesting to see how they play the "angels among us" angle.

                        - Cas is human! Most people predicted that this was going to happen, so it wasn't surprising. It was the only possible solution if they wanted to keep him on the show (which shouldn't even be a point of contention anymore, as far as I'm concerned *lalalala I can't hear you, haters* lalalala). Hopefully now they will use him for more than 2 minutes per episode and more than a total of 5 episodes, and they will be able to use him as a proper character (with personal growth, learning from one's mistake and all that) instead of a plot device/tool. Please... they have abused this character enough already.

                        I have wanted Cas to fall for a long time, but now that it has happened I just feel said at the loss of his angelic-ness. And maybe because I didn't care much for how it happened, which leads me to the things I didn't like.

                        Things I didn't like:

                        - That Cas didn't get a choice in giving up his grace. I wanted the fall to be HIS choice, but no, he is denied agency again, just to make him even more miserable (and on top of that, let him also carry the guilt for contributing to ALL his brothers and sisters being cast out of their home. Ouch.)

                        - That the brothers didn't complete the hell trials. I don't really have a problem with Dean choosing to save Sam over closing the gates of hell. It IS selfish, of course, but they are allowed to be selfish once in a while. They have already sacrificed enough for the world, why should they always be the ones to carry such a burden and die and suffer? There are 7 billion people in the world. BUT I have a problem with the season-long (or half season-long) trial arc coming to nothing at all, including the people (Meg, Benny, SARAH!!!!!! ) who died for nothing, just for Dean to stop Sam and say "nevermind, changed my mind. Abort abort!" They should have had something preventing Sam from completing the third trial, some external obstacle... Sam still wouldn't have died, and I wouldn't feel like the whole thing was such a cosmic waste of time.

                        - Naomi's death. I loved Amanda Tapping in the role, even though she was bad to my booboo Cas. I would have liked to see more of her.

                        - The torching of Abbadon's meatsuit... NOOOOOOO!! That actress was the best, I don't want a change of vessel/actress.

                        - The Sam/Dean speech. Sorry, not my thing. At this point I don't care about the brotherly bond, and that's not why I watch the show. But despite that, I usually enjoy their scenes, but this one didn't work for me and made me roll my eyes/get a little mad. I liked that we finally were allowed inside Sam's mind/feelings, and I sympathize with his feelings of inadequacy... but geez, enough with this bloody codependence! Sorry, I hate it, and I don't need to hear the brothers (Dean, especially) constantly having to declare how they love each other more than anything and anyone and how they can't live without each other and what not. It's been established, we know. Also, it may come as a surprise to Sam, but the world doesn't revolve around him.

                        Dean doesn't make friends with other people because Sam lets him down, or because he can't turn to Sam...that's really dismissive. He makes friends with other people because he values them and they value Dean, and they make a connection, and a friendship grows. Dean is allowed to (and should) have his own life and his own relationships outside his brother (and so should Sam), but apparently Sam (and most of the time Dean too) seems to not get it. That's a self-involved and egocentric (and also immature) way of viewing things, and this unhealthy codependency in grown men is why I am really not a fan of the brothers anymore. Please, please, let them grow past this.

                        Also, wasn't Sam insisting some time ago that he had to be the one to carry out the trials because he wanted to live, while Dean didn't see a light at the end of the tunnel and so he was more likely to die in the process for not trying to survive hard enough?? What happened to that? Sam's "so" to Dean claiming that Sam was going to die sounded a lot like resignation/willingness to die to me, just like Dean...

                        - I don't like that next season there's still going to be something wrong with Sam, given that he is sick from the trials. Can we please heal him, and let him be okay for once?? Switch the roles, make Sam worry and look after Dean and his problems for once... yeah, right. I shouldn't even be suggesting that, what am I thinking...

                        - Several plot holes weren't answered in the finale, like who was the person watching Sam leave Amelia's house, and I'm sure there are many others....

                        Overall, I was moderately happy with the season finale. I hope next season is consistently better than season 8... I hope Carver and co do their homework during the summer!!
                        Last edited by Francy; 18-05-13, 07:35 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Bittersweettwit: But didn't the conversation between Naomi and Metatron reveal that his motives were solely based on revenge? His reason for kicking the angels out of heaven was that he wanted to get his own back on them for Naomi and the arch-angels chasing him out of his home after God left? I would say that is more of a personal vendetta than an altruistic wish to complete the work of God
                          Yes, I agree that he was doing his for his own reasons and not to carry out God's divine will. I just happen to also think that if God was still around, he'd be A-OK with kicking all the angels out of Heaven. He tossed Lucifer out on his ass because... well according to the show, it's because he would not pay adequate homage to mankind, although that's not my understanding of what the reason was in Revelations. But whatever. So I certainly think God would be onboard with Metatron's decision, aside from the hubris of it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Francy View Post
                            The melancholic Dean/Cas bar scene. I'm glad Dean's rage has boiled down a bit, and that Cas went to him for help (better late than never... even though I'm not very clear on why Dean was particularly needed here). We need more friendship and quiet scenes between these two... it can't just be angst and myth-arc related stuff all the time.
                            While I would agree that Dean and Castiel need more friendship scenes to actually show us that they're friends - which, as you know, is really difficult for me to swallow at the moment - the timing and tone of that scene was absolutely awful and inappropriate. Sorry, I just don't find it believeable that Dean would kick back and have a beer with Castiel, knowing that his brother - who looks like he's about to collapse - is going off alone to fulfill the third trial. As you said yourself, Dean isn't really needed at all in that situation, and it just doesn't sit right with me that he seems so unconcerned. So, that whole scene annoyed me to no end. I really hate that whenever Castiel shows up in an episode, Dean goes off with Castiel and Sam goes off alone. So much for them being a team.

                            Originally posted by Francy View Post
                            I don't need to hear the brothers (Dean, especially) constantly having to declare how they love each other more than anything and anyone and how they can't live without each other and what not. It's been established, we know.
                            For me that last scene between the brothers was the best moment of the episode, obviously. However, I have to somewhat agree with you here. There has never been a doubt that Dean loves Sam and that he puts Sam above all others; that has firmly been established by now. While I think it is important for Sam to actually hear that from Dean, I think he what he needs to hear more is that Dean respects, trusts and likes him as his own person, as the person who is flawed and who sometimes fails him. Sam's insecurities and hurt are not only rooted in his own self-loathing for letting Dean down, but also stem from Dean's behaviour towards him. The way Dean once again blames Sam for his soullessness and throws Ruby, Lilith and Lucifer in his face, even though Sam has long atoned for those failures, really calls Dean's sincerity in question. And telling Sam that he loves him and would do anything for him is not the same as telling him that he trusts him and thinks he is a good person. The first is a statement about Dean and the sacrifices is willing to make, the latter is a statement about Sam and his value as a person. So, yeah, while I am happy that Sam and Dean were finally allowed to address their earlier conflict, I wished Dean had chosen his words a bit differently.

                            Originally posted by Francy View Post
                            Dean doesn't make friends with other people because Sam lets him down, or because he can't turn to Sam...that's really dismissive. He makes friends with other people because he values them and they value Dean, and they make a connection, and a friendship grows. Dean is allowed to (and should) have his own life and his own relationships outside his brother (and so should Sam), but apparently Sam (and most of the time Dean too) seems to not get it.
                            That's not what I got from that particular scene. In the past 7 years, Sam has not once resented or critisised Dean's friendship with others; on the contrary, he has always encouraged Dean's various relationships (except for Benny and there have been extenuating circumstances for that). So, I don't think that Sam suddenly believes that Dean shouldn't have friends and family besides him. No, in that moment, Sam is talking about the fact that he considers letting Dean down his greatest sin, and Benny and Castiel are both very closely interwoven with those feelings of guilt, because they did what Sam did not, namely rescue him from purgatory. He failed Dean in that regard and his feelings of inadequacy prompt his statement that Dean needs to turn to angels and vampires instead of him. It's not so much a statement about the value of Dean's relationships than it is a statement about Sam's self-loathing.
                            Last edited by galathea; 18-05-13, 09:38 PM.

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                            • #15
                              I guess I never saw Sam as being a self-loathing person, not in the same way that Dean is. (Osiris picked Dean, and Dean convicted himself. Not Sam.) I think it's pretty obvious that Dean has a lot of self-loathing, so I'll leave it at that regarding him. But Sam is a little more complicated. He never seems to give up on the idea that he could have a real life, that he has something to offer. He has hope of survival (in the beginning) in the trials whereas Dean just assumes that he will die, and that's ok because he's just a grunt.

                              I ultimately felt unsatisfied with that speech because I didn't think it explained anything, really. Sam still hasn't really said (not to my satisfaction, anyway) why he didn't look for Dean. I don't know why, but it just felt off. Dean has been very protective with Sam, yes, but I hadn't really had this feeling that whatever was unresolved between them was about Dean questioning Sam's competence and Sam feeling like he was constantly failing Dean somehow. Plus, they have these little brother-mance moments at the end of every season, just about. It's a little repetitive.

                              Did Naomi actually die? I somehow missed that. I thought she would have fallen like the other angels.

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