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  • The Road So Far: All Seasons Discussion

    Hello all!

    Since the Vip chat thread is always taken over by SN discussion, I thought it was time to bring the chatting to the SN section, in the hope to help it become more active, and also with the hope that other members will join.

    So this thread is to discuss any topic that doesn't really fit into the episode threads: all seasons, all characters, all plots, random thoughts, whinings, whatever crosses our mind.

    Since the thread is to cover the entirety of the show, currently airing season included, I would suggest keeping the season 8 stuff under spoiler tag, in order to be better safe than sorry.

    Have fun!!

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  • #2
    Thanks Francy for starting us off with this thread I'll guess I'll start us off with a topic of conversation! So I was browsing tumblr and saw this disgruntled post from a Cas fan on tumblr

    So you know how the SPN writers are always whining that it’s difficult to write for Castiel because he’s, like OMG POWERFUL AND STUFF? Here’s a direct quote from Misha:

    I don’t know if this is true or not, but I think that a lot of the reason Cas has often been found unconscious or crazy or evil or turning into God or missing is because he solves too many problems too easily for Sam and Dean. So it’s a writers device for dealing with that, and that totally makes sense. You don’t want an incredibly powerful ally. It’s kind of not as interesting. X
    Soooo, given that you send Cas away for an episode, what are the CLEVER CLEVER WAYS that SPN writers get around problems, based on episode 8.19???

    Need information? Sprinkle holy water on a crossroads demon. He’ll tell you everything, and then request you conveniently kill him.

    Need to talk to a Reaper? Easy peasy, just stroll up and start talking.

    Neet to kill a Reaper? Hey, don’t worry about getting that fancy whatcha-jiggy from past seasons, just use an angel sword.

    Need to get to Purgatory? Hold hands with a Reaper (hopefully before someone’s killed him with an angel sword).

    Need to get to Hell? Move the rock. Hey, don’t forget to move it back when you’re done! Naw, just joking, go ahead and leave it.

    Need to rescue Bobby from Hell? He’s third cell on the left, you can’t miss it.

    Need to escape from Purgatory because some guy just killed your Reaper with an angel sword? Call your vampire blood brother, who will instantly forgive you and then bravely volunteer to stay because Purgatory ****ing ROCKS.

    Need to get somebody’s soul up to heaven? Just relax and stay pinned to that tree, Winchester brother, because ANOTHER ANGEL (who’s not Cas, because that will be silly) will come along and help.

    Need to guard a Prophet of the Lord who’s being sought after by every angel and demon on earth and beside is sort of losing his sh*t? Leave him on a boat named after a muppet. HE’LL BE JUST FINE.

    Really glad we didn’t have Cas in 8.19. That would have made it silly.
    What do you guys think in the most recent seasons have the writers got in to the habit as the examples from 8x19 show of making things too easy for the brothers and their allies to accomplish? And if you think so what ways do you think the writers could change things to add some extra tension to the show. One thing I'm not saying no Castiel bashing or loving allowed if you want to use him as an example but please, please don't turn this into yet another Castiel debate but try and keep it a discussion about whether the show makes things too easy for the brothers in both episodes with or without the character present

    Personally I feel that the show has in recent years had a tendency to make things too simple for the brothers and I think this is largely due to the fact that sometimes the writers try to neatly get things completed within one episode rather than take their time and spread it out over a few such as this episode which tried to fit in Sam completing the second trial, the mental deterioration of Kevin, Naomi trying to manipulate Dean and the 'final' goodbye between Dean and Benny into one forty minute episode. Whereas I feel what would have worked much better would have been instead of wasting 8x18 on a random MotW involving Krissy and Co the writers should have made 8x18 and 8x19 a two parter with those elements I mentioned earlier explored over the course of two episodes. That way they could make things more difficult for the characters instead of having to rush through solutions!
    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 10-04-13, 03:47 PM.
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    • #3
      Whenever someone says that Cas should be written out because he makes things too easy for the Winchesters, I go a bit

      Not because it's not true, but because it's a bit... hypocritical. It's not like something else never punctually comes up every time to solve things, when Cas isn't around.

      In every episode/case, there's always a deus ex-machina that allows the Winchesters to defeat the enemy of the week, and most of the time it's not Castiel (who more often than not is incapacitated and unable to help when he is around). Bobby has always been very deus-ex-machina-y, with his promptly found rare spells, for example. When Dean was turned into a vampire in season 6, bang! Bobby finds out that there's a cure, obviously. Just one example, there must be dozens but I can't remember them now!

      Because the boys need to win and stay alive (most of the time lol), so something must always come along for them to come up on top.

      I think the problem is that, unlike in the early seasons when Sam and Dean could mostly handle the monsters on their own, from season 4 on the stakes have been raised, and Sam and Dean - no matter how extraordinary they are - are too limited/weak/small/human to believably deal with matters of heaven, hell and apocalypses on their own. So I really don't mind if sometimes they have a powerful ally (or more) on their side. It's unfair and unreasonable to think that the destiny of mankind should rest on their shoulders alone (why aren't the other hunters more involved, anyway? Bah), and I don't mind Cas or other angels helping them in the mytharc episodes. It makes much more sense than leaving these two humans fighting alone a fight they are outmatched for. So, in the later seasons the writers need to include powerful allies or contrived, out of the blue solutions to solve situations that are always more complicated and greater in scope.

      This of course happens with the mytharc episodes. In the MotW, Cas is always off-screen, so he really isn't a problem, and the boys usually handle things on their own the way they did in seasons 1-3.

      Then, the writing, as we saw in 8x19, is not always great, so that doesn't help. As you said, if the stuff in this episode had been spread in 2-3 episode instead of condensed into a very rushed one, the whole thing could have been a lot less stupid.

      I'm not sure what the writers could do to make things less easy for the Winchesters. I have never thought about it, I would have to ponder. Maybe a bit less lazy writing (spells for everything, Charmed-style) and more thought-out, careful plotting? Man, I'm not a writer, I don't know.
      Last edited by Francy; 10-04-13, 04:49 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Francy View Post
        Bobby has always been very deus-ex-machina-y, with his promptly found rare spells, for example. When Dean was turned into a vampire in season 6, bang! Bobby finds out that there's a cure, obviously. Just one example, there must be dozens but I can't remember them now!
        Actually, it was Samuel who knew that there is a cure for vampires, not Bobby. And it had been established that the Campbells do have access to rare knowledge that they do not share with other hunters - a fact that was explained recently in S8, when they introduced the Men of Letters society.

        Originally posted by Francy View Post
        I think the problem is that, unlike in the early seasons when Sam and Dean could mostly handle the monsters on their own, from season 4 on the stakes have been raised, and Sam and Dean - no matter how extraordinary they are - are too limited/weak/small/human to believably deal with matters of heaven, hell and apocalypses on their own. So I really don't mind if sometimes they have a powerful ally (or more) on their side. It's unfair and unreasonable to think that the destiny of mankind should rest on their shoulders alone (why aren't the other hunters more involved, anyway? Bah), and I don't mind Cas or other angels helping them in the mytharc episodes. It makes much more sense than leaving these two humans fighting alone a fight they are outmatched for.
        This, I think, is actually the biggest problem for the show. Once the writers decided to go epic and pit Sam and Dean against forces that outmatch them on a cosmic scale, they ran out of believable scenarios for the brothers to come out on top. So they had to cheat and they do so on a regular basis. Like, for example, when Sam and Dean are suddenly able to summon angels, just because it is convenient, or can shackle Death - I am still not over that one - with a simple spell, even though Lucifer needed to slaughter a whole town to do the same. Taxi Driver is just so groanworthy because instead of one or two isolated instances of cheating, the writers do it throughout the episode.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Francy View Post
          I'm not sure what the writers could do to make things less easy for the Winchesters. I have never thought about it, I would have to ponder. Maybe a bit less lazy writing (spells for everything, Charmed-style) and more thought-out, careful plotting? Man, I'm not a writer, I don't know.
          I'd agree with the idea of them making sure that the characters actually have to take longer to plan and consider things! Another thing I would say is that if they do something that has consequences make sure to make those consequences long term rather than the likes of Bobby losing his ability to walk only to magically regain it thanks to Crowley a few episodes later

          Originally posted by galathea View Post
          Actually, it was Samuel who knew that there is a cure for vampires, not Bobby. And it had been established that the Campbells do have access to rare knowledge that they do not share with other hunters - a fact that was explained recently in S8, when they introduced the Men of Letters society.
          Does the show ever state that the Campbell's were one of the hunters that the MoL share their theory with? Or are you jumping to that conclusion yourself based on the information were given? I think it's a pretty good theory that I agree with just curious does the show explicitly state it

          This, I think, is actually the biggest problem for the show. Once the writers decided to go epic and pit Sam and Dean against forces that outmatch them on a cosmic scale, they ran out of believable scenarios for the brothers to come out on top. So they had to cheat and they do so on a regular basis. Like, for example, when Sam and Dean are suddenly able to summon angels, just because it is convenient, or can shackle Death - I am still not over that one - with a simple spell, even though Lucifer needed to slaughter a whole town to do the same. Taxi Driver is just so groanworthy because instead of one or two isolated instances of cheating, the writers do it throughout the episode.
          I would agree with this I was trying to think after I saw that post and I honestly can not for the life of me think of an episode later than Jus in Bello where the characters solve a difficult issue through making use of their wits and surrounding resources alone without the aid of outside forces whether Castiel or some long forgotten spell or weapon etc.

          I really do think though the writers need to find a believable way to make things more difficult without making it absolutely impossible for the characters again to get audiences genuinely in suspense about what might happen to the brothers again! The fact that pretty much every member of the main regular cast (Sam, Dean, Castiel and formerly Bobby) has died multiple times certainly doesn't help matters either.
          Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 10-04-13, 05:10 PM. Reason: For some reason it didn't quote Francy's post so needed to edit with my reply to a point she made :)
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          • #6
            Originally posted by galathea View Post
            Actually, it was Samuel who knew that there is a cure for vampires, not Bobby. And it had been established that the Campbells do have access to rare knowledge that they do not share with other hunters - a fact that was explained recently in S8, when they introduced the Men of Letters society.
            Memory, what art thou??

            With ALL the possible examples of deus-ex-machina-y Bobby I could cite, I picked the wrong one!! Should I rewatch the whole show AGAIN? I finished 2 days ago, dammit!

            Still, I stand by my point!

            This, I think, is actually the biggest problem for the show. Once the writers decided to go epic and pit Sam and Dean against forces that outmatch them on a cosmic scale, they ran out of believable scenarios for the brothers to come out on top. So they had to cheat and they do so on a regular basis. Like, for example, when Sam and Dean are suddenly able to summon angels, just because it is convenient, or can shackle Death - I am still not over that one - with a simple spell, even though Lucifer needed to slaughter a whole town to do the same. Taxi Driver is just so groanworthy because instead of one or two isolated instances of cheating, the writers do it throughout the episode.
            It's no a big problem for me, as I love the epicness, as you know.

            I but I mostly accept the contrivances and the easy solutions, because that's how the show rolls (and other supernatural-based shows also roll). The problem with Taxi Driver, besides the ease of it all, is also the canon destroying... and all things combined make it impossible to close an eye the way I usually would.

            Not on topic, but since the Vip thread is off-topic, I need to post it somewhere, becausde it's too cute!!!





            Misha: I think it’s unfair, honestly. I’m a fully grown, six foot tall adult male who happens to have been saddled with a couple of giants. So now on television, I look like I’m tiny and I’m not tiny! By television standards, I’m actually too tall. It’s so frustrating

            Source:
            http://itsfuuh.tumblr.com/post/28842...tly-im-a-fully
            Last edited by Francy; 10-04-13, 05:19 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
              Does the show ever state that the Campbell's were one of the hunters that the MoL share their theory with? Or are you jumping to that conclusion yourself based on the information were given? I think it's a pretty good theory that I agree with just curious does the show explicitly state it
              No, it's not explicitly stated, but Sam implies it at the end of the episode when he says that now he understands why the angels wanted to 'cross breed' the Campbells and the Winchesters. It makes complete sense, though, and it's one of the few instances where S8 actually improved canon, instead of destroying it.

              Originally posted by Francy View Post
              Memory, what art thou??

              With ALL the possible examples of deus-ex-machina-y Bobby I could cite, I picked the wrong one!! Should I rewatch the whole show AGAIN? I finished 2 days ago, dammit!

              Still, I stand by my point!
              That's what you get for hating S6. Details from that season probably just fly by in your long-term memory.

              It is a valid point, though. It's one of the reasons why there are people in fandom who hate Bobby.

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              • #8
                Good subject!

                I would hate to see Castiel written out! Although I am someone who thinks having Castiel around or asking him to solve everything is just too easy. I much prefer the Winchesters having to use multiple resources and their own wits. I had a similar frustration with Bobby being their one phone call source of lore and information. I preferred them having to check online and local libraries and using other sources. (Although Meg did eliminate a lot of their hunter friends in 1.21 Salvation. But still I wanted the show to cultivate some new hunter friends for them.)

                That being said, I don't mind Castiel being the easy answer every once in awhile. One of my favorite parts of Torn and Fray was Kevin's despair at finding an ancient oil and then Dean laughing because it was such an easy request to send Castiel to get it.

                In the tumblr argument cited, I disagree with the poster that the list of things were equally convenient for the Winchesters as Castiel. The fact that there is a list of steps rather than one step (Castiel taking them there and back) is one reason. The Winchesters had to formulate a plan, get information, indebt themselves to a being for an unknown future favor, traverse much of it alone through monster/demon infested territory, have to scramble when the way out was lost, ask a favor of an estranged friend, and drive across the country to be picked up. That's a lot of resourcefulness on the part of the Winchesters. Yes, it was lucky that everything went their way. But it was more interesting and character building than just asking Castiel to whisk them there and back.

                IMO, it takes a lot of luck for the Winchesters to find information on new monsters using the internet. Or being lucky that the local library is open when they need it or the library computers being online. We have seen these be roadblocks in the show before. But we take these things for granted when they are also conveniences for the Winchesters.

                I much prefer an episode with all these obstacles to only briefly cover each obstacle. Rather than have less obstacles and those be drawn out. Yes, we only saw Sam and Bobby fight one demon in hell and then one set in Purgatory before Benny showed up. But rather than those being the only fights they had, I prefer to see them as just being examples of multiple fights they had. If things are going to unfold the same way, then just once on screen is enough. (Although I would have preferred the episode to have been a two parter.)

                I am not someone who takes the show at face value, that only what happens on screen is what is happening in the Winchester's lives. I believe that there are plenty of inconsequential cases and event that happen in between the cases we see onscreen. I have enjoyed when the boys reference a new character as someone they already met. Or in 7.15 Repo Man, being based on a past demon exorcism that we didn't see on the show most likely because it was routine. In similar fashion, for 8.19 Taxi Driver, I imagine that a lot more was happening offscreen and we were only getting the highlights. Whereas if Castiel was to take them there and back, there really isn't much possibility that anything happens offscreen to make their journey more difficult than it is onscreen.

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                • #9
                  I was thinking... this show likes to kill off everyone. The result is that the Winchesters have become always more and more isolated, and there are practically no more characters from the past seasons for them to interact with... which is one of the main problems in the show, imo.

                  They are slowly introducing a few new recurring characters, but with this show you never know how long they are going to last.

                  There is speculation lately about some old characters that may return. Without going into spoiler territory, which characters could possibly and believably be brought back, and which characters would you personally like to make a comeback??

                  Personally, I would like them to bring back Bela as a demon. With Meg gone, there are no more demons that the guys know personally; also, it would be interesting to explore how becoming a demon changes a person we knew (in this case, Bela was already a bitch, so maybe not so much..but still). We wouldn't even need Lauren Cohan, so there wouldn't even be a problem of actor availability!
                  Last edited by Francy; 14-04-13, 07:43 PM. Reason: Lauren Cohan, not Conrad lol

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                  • #10
                    I generally don't like it when the writers bring back dead characters; I hate when the writers play on the viewers' emotions by killing characters off and then bring them back when they are convenient. I know that many fans would love to have Gabriel or John back, but I really hope the writers leave them be and instead expand characters that are still available.

                    For example, I really, really wished the writers would bring Jody Mills back in a more earnest capacity. She makes a great recurring character because she is firmly grounded in law enforcement - and thus can help the brothers in that field - but also knows about the supernatural. Not to mention that she has a personal connection to Sam and Dean as well; the brothers don't have many female influences in their lives, so I think Jody brings something interesting to the table, relationship-wise, for the boys. I am really not sure why the writers don't utilise her more. Unless Kim Rhodes has other obligations, I see no good internal reason why.

                    I also vote for bringing Frank Devereaux back. His death has never been truly established - Bob Singer even said in an interview that they kept his 'death' ambiguous on purpose, in case they want to bring him back - and he would make a great addition to the team. While I don't see him ever replacing Bobby, he would certainly make a good go-to guy for the brothers. Plus, his quirky nature would bring some much needed levitiy to the show.

                    I also hope that the writers will bring Aaron and his Golem back. They'd make great allies - the Golem would be unstoppable in a fight - and also connect nicely to the Men of Letters storyline and I'd like to see that expanded.

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                    • #11
                      I generally agree about the bringing characters back from the dead. What's dead should stay dead, unless it's Dean, Sam, Cas, Buffy, Angel or Spike.

                      I admit that I'd like to have Gabriel back, because I like him and we have had so few episodes with him. But I also don't think the show needs to bring him back at this point... too much water under the bridge, the show has moved on.

                      I very much agree about Aaron and the Golem, awesome characters. I'd also like to see Jody again... when was her last appearance? Hello, Cruel World??

                      I can take or leave Frank.

                      I'm trying to think about one-off characters from the early seasons, but no one comes to mind.

                      Oh, will we ever find out what really happened to Chuck? Or should we just accept that he was indeed never a prophet, but God all along?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Francy View Post
                        I'd also like to see Jody again... when was her last appearance? Hello, Cruel World??
                        Jody's last appearance was in Time after Time and I really loved her interaction with Sam in that episode. Since Sam has become incredibly isolated over the course of the show, I'd really love to see a character become more closely connected with him.

                        Originally posted by Francy View Post
                        I'm trying to think about one-off characters from the early seasons, but no one comes to mind.
                        There are plenty of awesome one-off characters I would love to see again. For example, Jaime from Monster Movie, who was one of the best female one-off characters we ever had IMO, or Sarah Blake from Provenance. I also wouldn't be averse to seeing the Ghostfacers again. I quite like them. Jesse, the anti-christ is also still out there somewhere. I would like to know how the kid fared on his own.

                        Originally posted by Francy View Post
                        Oh, will we ever find out what really happened to Chuck? Or should we just accept that he was indeed never a prophet, but God all along?
                        Well, A Little Slice Of Kevin basically implies that Chuck died, since it establishes the rule that only one prophet can be active at a time and that a new prophet is activated once the last one is dead. So, Kevin could only be acticated when Chuck died. Besides, I for one never believed Chuck was God; canon doesn't really support it all that well and I hope the writers will leave it ambiguous.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by galathea View Post
                          Jody's last appearance was in Time after Time and I really loved her interaction with Sam in that episode. Since Sam has become incredibly isolated over the course of the show, I'd really love to see a character become more closely connected with him.
                          Ah, true!!
                          Yes, Sam is too isolated.

                          There are plenty of awesome one-off characters I would love to see again. For example, Jaime from Monster Movie, who was one of the best female one-off characters we ever had IMO, or Sarah Blake from Provenance. I also wouldn't be averse to seeing the Ghostfacers again. I quite like them. Jesse, the anti-christ is also still out there somewhere. I would like to know how the kid fared on his own.
                          Man, sometimes I wish you were still reading spoilers!! There's a possible development I have talked about in the spoiler thread, but of course I won't say more here!

                          About Jesse... I don't know which writer it was, but basically he said that they dropped that storyline. They had made the kid too powerful, practically omnipotent, and it was impossible to fit him in the show. So they pretend that that storyline never happened, and basically we should forget about it.


                          Well, A Little Slice Of Kevin basically implies that Chuck died, since it establishes the rule that only one prophet can be active at a time and that a new prophet is activated once the last one is dead. So, Kevin could only be acticated when Chuck died. Besides, I for one never believed Chuck was God; canon doesn't really support it all that well and I hope the writers will leave it ambiguous.
                          But I have read that Benedict and also someone from the writing team (maybe even Kripke himself) confirmed that Chuck was indeed God. Now I agree that it doesn't make much sense (why the vanishing act, though? What a mess), and I don't want it to be true, but I wouldn't discard that option completely. Maybe it's better left ambiguous, indeed.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Francy View Post
                            Man, sometimes I wish you were still reading spoilers!! There's a possible development I have talked about in the spoiler thread, but of course I won't say more here!
                            Nope, no spoilers for me so late in the season. I like to go into the finale episodes unspoilered. Once the season is over, I'll be back to reading spoilers, though, and probably develop an ulcer because of it.

                            Originally posted by Francy View Post
                            About Jesse... I don't know which writer it was, but basically he said that they dropped that storyline. They had made the kid too powerful, practically omnipotent, and it was impossible to fit him in the show. So they pretend that that storyline never happened, and basically we should forget about it.
                            Oh, I know that. Just you asked which characters we would like to see back, and Jesse is one of those characters I would like to have some closure on. Besides, if they can have Castiel as a recurring character, who may not be quite omnipotent but is still pretty powerful, they could have Jesse for a standalone episode as well.

                            Originally posted by Francy View Post
                            But I have read that Benedict and also someone from the writing team (maybe even Kripke himself) confirmed that Chuck was indeed God. Now I agree that it doesn't make much sense (why the vanishing act, though? What a mess), and I don't want it to be true, but I wouldn't discard that option completely. Maybe it's better left ambiguous, indeed.
                            As far as I know Kripke never confirmed it, and I really don't care what the actor thinks. Ultimately, Benedict is just stating his personal opinion, just like the rest of us. It makes no sense in canon whatsoever and unless there is an in-canon confirmation, I choose to believe he was a prophet, nothing more, nothing less.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by galathea
                              I hate when the writers play on the viewers' emotions by killing characters off
                              Yes! This I hate. Especially when it is a fairly unexplored character which is always such a waste of show potential. That always feels like cheap way to attempt to create drama. However, I dont mind the characters then being brought back.

                              The idea of Gabriel or John being recurring characters may not be necessary but to return for once offs is appealing. I would love for the Winchesters to stumble upon another seemingly motw case and it be Gabriel back to being a Trickster giving someone their just desserts. The angel stuff added nothing to the character for me. And John returning in a memory of the boys would be nice somewhere. As such a main character from the the beginning, I think John needs to appear towards the end in some form.

                              I would love to have Lisa return. Dean wiping her memories didnt feel like a final moment but instead something that Dean would need to emotionally resolve when he could later deal with.

                              That's an interesting idea Francy for Bella to appear as a demon! I first thought, it is way too soon for her to have been changed. But then I realized, we are heading for a ninth season so it has been five years at least.

                              I think the ghostfacers should return. It is a shame that it has been four seasons since they appeared. I got spoiled that they were in 3 of the first 4 years and kind of expected them to appear every couple of seasons.

                              I agree with galathea that Sarah and Jamie were two females that had strong connections with the boys and would enjoy them again.

                              I didnt mind Frank and his paranoia, but I dont need him recommending again that the boys not drive the impala or use rock aliases. So resurrecting him isnt on my list of necessary.

                              Canon might not support Chuck as God throughout the series. But I do agree with that interpretation in Swan Song. Otherwise, it makes little sense for the character to be wearing a white suit. That wasnt the style of the Chuck we saw earlier. I would like to know what happened with Chuck more than the ambiguous "we guess he is dead since there can only be one prophet at a time." Although i appreciate the show at least throwing that information in to attempt to wrap up the question of Chuck.

                              And speaking of loose ends with recurring characters, they need to rescue Adam.

                              Lydia made the punch!

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