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  • Season 7 Finale discussion

    Looks like Game of Thrones not been discussed in here for a long time. Can we please try to bring this back for the Season 7 finale? I literally have nobody to discuss GOT with.

  • #2
    Hey Nebula, I'd love to discuss GoT.

    Is episode 7 the next? It's disappointing to have such a short season.

    Thoughts on the last episode to get us rolling... I enjoyed the episode and the cinematography in this season so far has been incredible.

    My main question at the end was whether the white walkers had waited it out in order to get the dragon. I mean really why else would they stand around with none of them making any attempt to attack? I appreciate the ice was weak but to just totally stand there waiting and not try using arrows or some such was, well, odd. It has amused me how long it is taking the white walkers to get to the wall when everyone else seems able to reach them, run away and come back again before they ever arrive. They can walk through the day and night for goodness sake. And yet in this episode Jon sent Gendry who managed to run all the way back to the wall, send a raven that flew all the way to Daenerys, who then flew all the way to successfully find them beyond the wall. It seems somewhat ridiculous that they aren't already all the way to King's Landing already.

    The obvious flaws in the theory they were waiting for the dragons are, why/how they could know that the dragons had been born, let alone were allied to the people in front of them, and why then did the goading of the white walker by The Hound suddenly work? There was some dubious writing around that whole stand off for me and either way seems to require a lot of handwaving of the 'this is a fantastical world after all' variety.

    Over in Winterfell, I like the way they have gone in that it hasn't been just a relief that the Stark girls are reunited, I'm feeling how isolated both Sansa and Arya still are. They seem young, naive and are failing to connect even though they are physically back together again. They have both been through so much that they have matured huge amounts in some ways, but they are emotionally driven and inexperienced and so are being skilfully manipulated by someone older. It is of course sad to see the traumas that they have experienced separating them, but I appreciate seeing some stumbling and failing rather than them coming back together and having just suddenly gelled in a way that they hadn't before all the tragedy started to hit their lives anyway. Has Arya been so damaged by the trauma that she has gone through that she just can't let her anger go and needs to find targets? Why is Sansa trusting Little Finger so much?

    Other thoughts... I'm looking forward to seeing Brienne and Jamie back around each other. I really enjoyed the different chats we saw between the characters who went over the wall and you've got to love the visual of that flaming sword too.

    Any predictions or expectations for the finale? Will the dragon speed up the white walkers travel plans finally!!?
    Last edited by Stoney; 23-08-17, 09:01 AM.

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    • #3
      I'm not loving this season. Which is a pity, because I want to... But it feels so rushed, and I don't understand why did they have to cut it shorter.
      There have been nice scenes here and there of course (with the reunions and all) and that battle in The Spoils of War was impressive (and scary).

      I don't see any chemistry between Jon and Dany, which is a shame (because I wanted to!).

      Stoney, you've already listed everything wrong plot wise in the last episode, but I would also add that the reaction to Viserion's death fell slightly flat for me. I mean, the moment was sad and beautifully acted by EC. But the next scenes show Dany being all Jon-Jon-Jon, which is cool and all, but for God's sake, she just lost one of her children!

      But of course, very much looking forward to the season finale!
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      • #4
        The season does feel rushed, but at the same time, I am loving it. I really think they could have made it a 10-episode season, so that it had more time to be fleshed out. The episodes next season will each be around 2-hours long. Perhaps they are conserving their budget for some of that?

        STONEY said:
        My main question at the end was whether the white walkers had waited it out in order to get the dragon. I mean really why else would they stand around with none of them making any attempt to attack?
        I think it was all a ploy to get a dragon. The Night King has a connection to Bran (who as the Three-Eyed Raven, seems to see everything), and let him see what appeared to be a threat from the White Walkers and their wights heading toward the Wall. I think the Night King knows that Bran is watching, and essentially set a trap. He let the lone wight be captured. The setting was one that allowed for Jon and his merry men to be cornered, so they had no choice but to call on Dany for help. Note how the White Walkers had 3 spears ready for the three dragons. We don't know what the Night King wants, but if his goal is conquest over the 7 kingdoms, having a dragon will help.

        It would also be useful if we had more about what Bran is doing. He is crucial to the plot, yet we barely see him. Is he the Night King (or trapped in him from warging into him before being stabbed in the heart with dragon glass)? Is he a Stark ancestor? Are the Starks able to handle ice, the way Targaryens can handle fire?

        I think there are still so many ways this story can go, and a lot more revelations we've yet to see, so that maybe some of the questions we have will be answered well (except maybe how people and animals seem to travel around as if they have transporter rooms in their castles).

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        • #5
          Originally posted by blue_peroxide View Post
          I'm not loving this season. Which is a pity, because I want to... But it feels so rushed, and I don't understand why did they have to cut it shorter.
          No idea, but I didn't know the next season might have longer episodes so it probably relates.

          Stoney, you've already listed everything wrong plot wise in the last episode, but I would also add that the reaction to Viserion's death fell slightly flat for me. I mean, the moment was sad and beautifully acted by EC. But the next scenes show Dany being all Jon-Jon-Jon, which is cool and all, but for God's sake, she just lost one of her children!
          I was also a bit surprised no one (yet!) thought of the fact that a dragon dying around the white walkers might be a bad idea. After the polar bear attack clearly flagged again that dead creatures can be raised too, I would have expected at least one look of utter horror when he was speared.

          Did either of you catch the eye of Jon's sword Longclaw opening as he gets out of the lake? I didn't see it but saw comments on it and went back and checked, and yes, it does. I have seen an article from the director discrediting it and saying he didn't have a clue what fans were talking about and there was no intention for that to happen, but that is just strange because the camera focus is on the handle as Jon starts to emerge and it blatantly happens.

          Originally posted by Nebula1400 View Post
          The season does feel rushed, but at the same time, I am loving it. I really think they could have made it a 10-episode season, so that it had more time to be fleshed out. The episodes next season will each be around 2-hours long. Perhaps they are conserving their budget for some of that?
          I've never followed any of the build up info etc, so I hadn't heard about the extended episodes for S8. Is that supposed to be the last season?

          I think it was all a ploy to get a dragon. The Night King has a connection to Bran (who as the Three-Eyed Raven, seems to see everything), and let him see what appeared to be a threat from the White Walkers and their wights heading toward the Wall. I think the Night King knows that Bran is watching, and essentially set a trap. He let the lone wight be captured. The setting was one that allowed for Jon and his merry men to be cornered, so they had no choice but to call on Dany for help. Note how the White Walkers had 3 spears ready for the three dragons. We don't know what the Night King wants, but if his goal is conquest over the 7 kingdoms, having a dragon will help.
          Ah, yes, I totally forgot about Bran. The previous episode I think even has the Night King react to Bran's spying via raven. I'm not liking Bran much to be honest. I've only read the first of the books (which I loved) and Bran was one of my favourites in that, but I've found him hard to like in the show.

          It would also be useful if we had more about what Bran is doing. He is crucial to the plot, yet we barely see him. Is he the Night King (or trapped in him from warging into him before being stabbed in the heart with dragon glass)? Is he a Stark ancestor? Are the Starks able to handle ice, the way Targaryens can handle fire?
          Ooo, I really like that idea. That would make Jon both fire and ice wouldn't it? I did wonder if the point of him falling into the water was to show that he wasn't normally mortal any longer but it could have been (could also have been), because he is impervious to the ice. The water should have killed him.

          I think there are still so many ways this story can go, and a lot more revelations we've yet to see, so that maybe some of the questions we have will be answered well (except maybe how people and animals seem to travel around as if they have transporter rooms in their castles).
          Ha, quite.

          Frustratingly I'm moving house this Friday and my Sky won't be set up in time for the finale episode. I'm hoping that I'll get a working broadband connection early next week and as soon as I do I'll watch the episode via that. But I'm definitely going to be late to respond to the finale.
          Last edited by Stoney; 24-08-17, 05:58 AM.

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          • #6
            Is that supposed to be the last season?
            Yes. It's supposed to be 6 2-hour episodes. Then it will be over.

            Frustratingly I'm moving house this Friday and my Sky won't be set up in time for the finale episode. I'm hoping that I'll get a working broadband connection early next week and as soon as I do I'll watch the episode via that. But I'm definitely going to be late to respond to the finale.
            Good luck with the move!

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            • #7
              OMG... I suppose I'll have to watch the finale once more before I can really go into the episode in depth.

              But to start with the issues mentioned here earlier, I agree that the whole plot of waiting for them to get a dragon seemed really far fetched. Bran is the only somewhat logical explanation. Or maybe the Night King shares the seeing powers and that is why he can connect to Bran, and so he saw the dragons all by himself.

              I intensely hate this storyline, but I do also appreciate the dramatic gesture of it and the fact that it is probably the only way for them to get across that wall.
              Although when those ravens were flying there I thought: Why did he never use birds before? They could've gone and spread it all at the other side of the wall too.

              The whole season is definitely rushed, why did they shorten it? It does cause quite some plot holes, the hole ice dragon being the top of that one. And then Uncle Benjin coming in to die because of it all..

              Still there are many beautiful scenes. And the season finale does wrap it up and sets out a great premise for the last season, which can't be anything other then epic, thrilling, amazing and terrifying

              Things I liked:

              "His name is Aegon Targaryan, you have to protect him"
              Even though I don't understand that Ned never gave him the Stark name and didn't explain to Cat who he was, or at least a little bit... The hate Cat had for him was unneeded and ugly.
              Still to finally have closure about this, to finally really know that he is the rightful heir to the throne. Did anyone else think that Rhaegar was played by the same actor that played Viserys at first? I checked IMDB and it wasn't Harry Lloyd but Wilf Scolding (who ever he is ). They could've fooled me.

              "How do you pledge Lord Baelish?"
              I couldn't believe that Sansa would really fall for his horrible manipulations, and thankfully she didn't but definitely made him believe that she did. It was an unbelievable plot that she was listening to him after everything that he had done, but now it makes sense. Silly me for not realising earlier on that she was double crossing him!

              The conversation between Tyrion and Cersei! The tension, hate, despair and underneath it all some strange respect or maybe sibling-some-sort-of-love?
              Although she of course lied and all.. But Tyrion is the bravest of them all Or at least of the Lannisters.

              Jaime leaving!!
              There are two ways I want Cersei to die: Dragonfire, preferably with Jon and Dany standing next to her, be caught in fire and obviously not harmed.
              Or killed by Jaime. (I suppose this would be more drama and have the preference of most of you).


              With very mixed feelings, because I hate it, I have to admit that having dead!Viserion tearing down the wall was good. And the whole hating it so much, means they are doing it good. I guess they should've just had a better plot to get him there.

              The ending was disturbing and sets it all great up for the last season.

              More later

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rosely View Post
                "His name is Aegon Targaryan, you have to protect him"
                Even though I don't understand that Ned never gave him the Stark name and didn't explain to Cat who he was, or at least a little bit... The hate Cat had for him was unneeded and ugly.
                In Westeros children whose parents are not married are bastards and cannot take their father's name. So since Cat was not Jon's mother, Jon could not have Stark as his last name. Of course now we know that Jon was not a bastard after all but the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. As for why Ned never told Cat who Jon really was, I have no idea. Maybe he thought that already telling one person would put Jon's life at risk and he had promised his sister Lyanna to protect Jon. But yeah, if Ned had told Cat, Jon's childhood might have been a bit easier because Cat wouldn't have treated him with so much hate.

                I'm too tired to write an in-depth review but here are a few of my thoughts on the season 7 finale:

                My favourite scene was Theon and Jon, surprisingly enough. It even made me tear up a little. If someone had told me that I would ever like a scene between Jon and Theon of all people this much I wouldn't have believed them. I loved that Jon told Theon that he didn't have to choose, that he could both be a Greyjoy and a Stark and this gave Theon the courage and determination to go save his sister. Such a beautiful scene!

                To be honest, Boat!Sex was a letdown for me. It was way too short and abrupt. I wanted to see Jon and Dany kiss first. Also their sex scene being intercut with Bran's cold voice and the Rhaegar and Lyanna flashbacks didn't help. In addition, the Rhaegar actor looking so much like Viserys really creeped me out. On the plus side, the show finally officially spelled out R+L=J in the text and they even revealed that Jon is not a bastard but the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. I do not really like the name Aegon though, I'm gonna keep calling him Jon.

                The Winterfell storyline does still not make sense to me, but I'm glad that Littlefinger is finally dead and the Stark sisters have made up. This stupid tension and strife between them was so annoying.

                Loved the reunion scene between Brienne and The Hound and how they talked about Arya and the scene between Brienne and Jaime. I had to chuckle how shocked Jaime was when Brienne told him to f'uck loyalty.

                Cersei has done so many horrible things and this is the thing that turns Jaime against her? WTF? But fine, whatever, as long as Jaime is removed from Cersei's influence and no longer with her, I'm glad. Of course D&D completely screwed up Jaime's redemption arc, his turning against Cersei should have come about 3 seasons ago. I just hope that GRRM will continue to write Jaime's arc better in the books. I really hope that Cersei dies early on next season, I don't know how much more of her that I can take. I'm sick and tired of her character.

                Seeing Viserion the Wight destroying the Wall was impressive but I really hope Tormund made it out alive. It's gonna be a long wait until season 8!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cori View Post
                  In Westeros children whose parents are not married are bastards and cannot take their father's name. So since Cat was not Jon's mother, Jon could not have Stark as his last name. Of course now we know that Jon was not a bastard after all but the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. As for why Ned never told Cat who Jon really was, I have no idea. Maybe he thought that already telling one person would put Jon's life at risk and he had promised his sister Lyanna to protect Jon. But yeah, if Ned had told Cat, Jon's childhood might have been a bit easier because Cat wouldn't have treated him with so much hate.
                  I know But Cat had begged him to just name him Stark. And hellish kid Ramsay was at some point given the name Bolton..

                  Originally posted by Cori View Post
                  In addition, the Rhaegar actor looking so much like Viserys really creeped me out.
                  Ha! I wasn't the only one!

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                  • #10
                    Sometimes, I'm too smart to be able to enjoy things: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post711001

                    I have kept abreast of the TV series but stopped watching long ago. I consider the TV series has become stupid. Cersei Lannister has zero legitimacy and the Lannisters only have money. Cersei would be so hated that its shocking she hasn't been killed yet.

                    Dany should have control of the Iron Bank and easiest be the wealthiest person in the world.

                    Ned would have never allowed Jon to join the Nights Watch if Ned actually ever loved him. Jon has already left the Nights Watch and is currently King of the North. Jon has a great claim to the throne.

                    The Tyrion theory will probably eventually be confirmed, making him have a great claim to the throne.

                    This Season seems to confirm the relative lack of writing skills of the GoT writers: It was easy to adapt a fantastic book series when on HBO with a huge budget. Nothing is interesting anymore.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rosely View Post
                      I know But Cat had begged him to just name him Stark. And hellish kid Ramsay was at some point given the name Bolton..
                      A bastard can only be legitimised by a king or queen: as a reward for Roose Bolton's role in the Red Wedding, his bastard son Ramsay Snow is legitimized by the crown (i.e. the Lannisters). Sure Ned could have asked Robert Baratheon (when he was still alive) to legitimise Jon, but considering Robert's hate for Jon's real father (i.e. Rhaegar) and love for Jon's mother (i.e. Lyanna) Ned probably thought that was too dangerous.

                      Ha! I wasn't the only one!
                      Far from it, the whole Internet is talking about it. Then again, Rhaegar and Viserys are supposed to resemble each other according to the books and I think it says somewhere that Viserys stole the way he wore his hair from his older brother. The thing is that in the books Rhaegar is described as the most gorgeous, most beautiful man in Westeros so I was a bit let down when I saw the actor who played him on the show.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cori View Post
                        A bastard can only be legitimised by a king or queen: as a reward for Roose Bolton's role in the Red Wedding, his bastard son Ramsay Snow is legitimized by the crown (i.e. the Lannisters). Sure Ned could have asked Robert Baratheon (when he was still alive) to legitimise Jon, but considering Robert's hate for Jon's real father (i.e. Rhaegar) and love for Jon's mother (i.e. Lyanna) Ned probably thought that was too dangerous.
                        Fair enough! I didn't realise that. Good point

                        Originally posted by Cori View Post
                        Far from it, the whole Internet is talking about it. Then again, Rhaegar and Viserys are supposed to resemble each other according to the books and I think it says somewhere that Viserys stole the way he wore his hair from his older brother. The thing is that in the books Rhaegar is described as the most gorgeous, most beautiful man in Westeros so I was a bit let down when I saw the actor who played him on the show.
                        I would've at least expected him to be bigger... We didn't get a good glimpse on his face and the actor is quite okay looking: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6251140/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t35

                        But yeah, he was disappointing I wonder if they'll let him appear again? I don't see a point to it.

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                        • #13
                          My main thought right now (since watching the finale yesterday,actually) is "How am I supposed to wait until 2019 to see season 8??? Please, cryogenically hybernate me until then".

                          I'm also worried that something is going to happen to me and that I won't be alive to see it!! Dammit!! I need to stay alive for this!!

                          Seriously, though... awesome finale, which closed a good - yet flawed - season.

                          It is good to have almost all the players finally interacting in the same location, after being split for so long all across Westeros. I throughly enjoyed all the reunions (Tyrion/Podric, Tyrion/Bronn, Brienne/The Hound, ecc).

                          The scene in the dragon pit was wonderfully tense. Dany's sure knows how to make an entrance, she's such a show off! I wouldn't have it any other way, though..she has dragons!!! (minus one now! :'( )

                          Cersei sucks, but we all knew that already. Not even the prospect of the whole world population being annihilated makes her put aside her petty selfishness and hunger for power. I can't wait for her to meet the gruesomest end, and it will still be too late. I'm so glad Jaime finally had enough and left her, I hope it sticks this time. Their relationship is abusive and unbalanced, she doesn't respect him and she doesn't love him, she only loves herself.

                          The scene between Cersei and Tyrion was gold, these two actors have always played off each very well. I was very worried for Tyrion...and while Cersei didn't kill him, she certainly played him. Since the writers cut the meeting short and didn't show how Tyrion supposedly convinced Cersei to help in the fight against the Night King, there's a lot of speculation that Tyrion made some kind of deal with his sister in order to protect her unborn child and to wash away some of his misguided guilt for "causing" Tommen and Myrcella to die (wake up, Tyrion, don't let that bitch you have for a sister manipulate you in that way), and that's why he was lurking and brooding creepily outside Dany's cabin while the incest-fest was happening... I hope that's not the case, it would piss me off more than anything if they turned Tyrion into a traitor at this point.

                          So, about the big reveal... Jon's name is Aegon Targaryen. I like it, it's a good name. Yes, it's a bit silly that he is named like his dead brother, but Targaryens aren't really that imaginative with names and I like the name, so it doesn't bother me much. I don't think Jon is going to go by that, anyway.

                          The inevitable happened, and Jon/Dany consummated. I'm a little conflicted, I like both characters so in theory I should root for them, except for the fact that they are freaking related. I would like to know what psychological problems GRR Martin has, he is so fixated with incest. Anyway, as I said it was inevitable, since Jon and Dany are what the series/books are practically about, so I'll roll with it. I doubt they'll be happy for long, given the show/universe they are in. Love brings destruction in this universe, and the fact that their love scene was intertwined with the flashback of Rhaegar/Lyanna's wedding isn't a good omen.

                          The Stark plot was very satisfying. It wasn't developed well in the previous episodes, but I'm glad that all the tensions and conflicts were due to the Stark sisters playing the long con on Littlefinger, and the payoff was worth it. I almost felt sorry for Littlefinger for half a second, before remembering that he deserved to die more painfully than he did. He got off easy!! I loved all the scenes with Sansa and Arya... the pack survives indeed.

                          Another favourite part for me was the Theon/Jon scene, and the following scene in which Theon finally makes a stand and decides to fight for Yara. Hopefully the conversation with Jon and his forgiveness will allow Theon to put Reek behind for good. I'm rooting for you, Theon!!!!

                          The final scene was terrific, and harrowing. It definitely filled me with sadness to see decaying-wings, blue fire-spitting wighViserion burning down the Wall. Like Tyrion said, they are f*cked.

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                          • #14
                            So much to address, but I have a migraine and am having surgery tomorrow. So for now, I'll say for now that I agree with about 98% of what Francy said. Just hope I don't die under the knife tomorrow, because I need to see what happens next!
                            Last edited by Nebula1400; 30-08-17, 03:00 AM.

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                            • #15
                              My understanding is that Ned absolutely could have named him Stark -- not only as his putative father, but also as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, i.e. through the authority of the Crown. But he didn't because it would have been a lie, it would have probably destroyed his marriage (which may not have been the most stable after bringing him in anyway, since it is widely theorized the reason he never told Catelyn is that Catelyn would have turned him over to Robert at the first sign there was some threat to her own children.

                              I gotta admit, incest has become so inconsequential in the context of the show -- and is such a big thing with the Targaryens anyway -- that I really doubt Danaerys will have nearly the problem with Jon/Aegon being her nephew as with him being her King. I honestly hope the easiest solution here holds in which Jon learns this and immediately abdicates his claim to the Iron Throne to her and restores the status quo of 5 minutes earlier, including with them.

                              I liked the casting of Rhaegar, precisely because he was... well, a man. Not larger than life, just a man. Undoubtedly a skilled warrior, but so is Bronn, so is the Hound, so were Loras Tyrell and Daario Naharis, and so too are women of large and small stature. GoT has always been kinda practical about that. Only the Mountain is ever played for being an "I win" button based on his size/strength above all else. And dammit, I actually got kinda emotional watching their wedding with Bran's acknowledgement that ALL this mortal misery in Westeros for 20+ years was a fiction. He loved her; and she loved him. It was beautiful.

                              Totally agree about the Stark plot. I'll admit the show did have me tricked a bit, that Sansa had really ultimately not seen through him as much as even she thought, but it was so, so good. It explains EVERYTHING this season, right up to Brienne being sent away; Sansa wasn't in any danger from Littlefinger because she had it covered and because Arya was her de facto protector now anyway. There was an emotional peak of satisfaction like I'd rarely gotten on this show with just two words -- "... Lord Baelish". But it kept getting better from there. Every time Sansa spoke it became more certain, probably even to Baelish, that he wasn't getting out of that room. And BRAN OMG. I actually felt like he was reassuringly human for that scene. He'll never be "one of the lads" again, but I felt like something about the way he described Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned carried a sense of justice and not just clinical disinterest. I am totally a nerd for reaction videos, but I hate when they talk over moments that I find so heavy with meaning. Like Sansa herself putting what was ultimately his death sentence "and yet you betrayed her / and yet you betrayed me". I had to watch it a couple times, by the way, to realize that Sansa standing was probably a prearranged cue to Arya that it was time to finish it.

                              I also fell for Cersei's conversion -- thought she was exercising the villain trope of trusting the do-gooders because, well, you can. But honestly she has hit every branch on the stupid tree coming down. It doesn't matter; I'm getting more and more convinced that the Night King is just going to win. It's all taken too long. A defeat for him at this point is just going to take wild deus ex. As for Tyrion's guilt, he probably should feel some guilt for Myrcella, because it was first and foremost the Dornish grudge against the Lannister's that created the threat to her that killed her (since Oberyn's defense of Tyrion and his death all stem out of that), and he is the one that sent her there, mostly to prove his political mettle. Tommen, though, it's ludicrous that she puts that on Tyrion when she is the one who murdered the kid's wife (two facts that probably made up 90% of his motivation). I wish Tyrion had been granted audience knowledge to throw that back at her (we have no real idea how well Team Dany knows about the Sept explosion).

                              Great episode, I'm glad it was more of a talkie the way season finales often are.

                              But man, HBO and GOT owe Blizzard some money, or at least need to more openly acknowledge some things as shout-outs. The ultimate shot of the season is almost a dead lift from Blizzard's cinematic trailer for the Wrath of the Lich King cinematic back in 2008 or so (pause around 2:46-2:47), and indeed, the Night King's army and its entire fighting style and tactics appear to have been aped from Blizzard's undead Scourge (it's not in the source material, it was all conceived for TV, since we really have much less exposure to the army of the dead in the novels). I mean, as undead army's in a fantasy setting go, that's who you want to be cribbing from, but still
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