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4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" episode discussion thread

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  • 4.02 "The Lion and the Rose" episode discussion thread

    So that was magnificent! I have been waiting for the events of the Purple Wedding to happen for so long that I wondered whether I'd be disappointed seeing it on the show. The answer to that is a resounding no. Seeing Joffrey choke to death on screen was just as satisfying as reading about it in the book. Finally the little psychopath got his comeuppance and it was glorious. Of course GRRM (who wrote the episode, yay!) and the producers made it very easy on us to start cheering when Joffrey bit it because on his last day on earth (or rather Westeros) he demonstrated once again what an evil, cruel, sadistic psychopath he was. Even knowing how Joffrey would humiliate Tyrion did not stop me from cringeing throughout those scenes, first at the breakfast when Joffrey slashed Tyrion's gift with his new sword, then the horrible dwarf joust, then Joffrey pouring wine over Tyrion's head and making him his cupbearer, asking him to kneel, etc. Luckily, Margaery with her diplomatic tact intervened and even Sansa helped Tyrion out by finding the cup under the table. Of course the fact that she did that is interesting in itself because naturally the conspiracy theories are starting up as to who poisoned Joffrey. The show cleverly introduced so many suspects in the course of that wedding reception, most notably Sansa, Tyrion, the Queen of Thorns, Ser Dontos and Prince Oberyn, that anyone of them or even people not present at the wedding could be the ones who poisoned Joffrey. I loved how the writers included all these little scenes, such as the Queen of Thorns staring at Sansa's necklace and later there being a stone missing in the necklace which might have contained the poison without Sansa's knowledge (I knew that necklace would be important!), or Joffrey's cup standing on the table not far from the Queen of Thorns and the other Tyrells. I think Joffrey was poisoned by the wine (and not the pigeon pie because other people were eating it as well). I also thought that it was great that the only two people rushing to Joffrey's aid were Cersei and Jaime, aka his parents. Everyone else at that wedding reception was probably just as glad and relieved as I was that Joffrey finally died. Joffrey, Cersei and maybe Tywin certainly seemed to be the only people who enjoyed that distasteful dwarf joust, everyone else was clearly disgusted and/or upset by it. Poor Sansa especially! I also loved how Ser Loras got up from the table angrily and left when they f*cked about with the memory of his beloved Renly.

    There were quite a few scenes in this fantastic episode that were not in the book but since GRRM wrote them they were all fantastic. I especially loved the following:

    - Tyrion and Jaime having the brotherly scene that I missed in last week's episode. I was a bit sceptical at first about Jaime arriving in King's Landing prior to the wedding (unlike in the book) because it messed up the timeline but I loved this scene between the two brothers. Tyrion trying to raise Jaime's spirits and giving him Bronn so that he can train swordfighting with his left hand was great!

    - Ser Loras and Prince Oberyn flirting with each other! Once again the show is more overt when it comes to its gay/bisexual characters than the books. I approve!

    - Prince Oberyn threatening Cersei and Tywin with Myrcella still being kept at Dorne as leverage and repeatedly calling Cersei the "Former Queen Regent". For someone as vain and power-hungry as Cersei, that must have stung!

    - Jaime threatening Ser Loras about marrying Cersei and Loras replying to Jaime's "you will never marry her" "neither will you". Apparently, the whole of Westeros now knows about Cersei and Jaime.

    - Cersei trying to intimidate Brienne and saying that Brienne loved Jaime. And Brienne did not deny it! My shipper's heart rejoiced! I also loved the nervous looks Jaime shot Cersei and Brienne when he saw them talking to each other.

    - Ser Dontos coming to Sansa's table and telling her that she must leave with him right now! I was wondering how they would do that and now we know. (book 3 spoiler):
    Spoiler:
    I think it's a pity that they took Sansa's agency away by her not knowing about the escape plan. She is such a passive character most of the time and this was one of the few times in the books that she actually took action by fleeing the wedding reception immediately after Joffrey's death. I hope the rest of her storyline this season will follow the books more closely.


    Since Sansa's storyline is one of those I'm most excited about this season, I cannot wait to see what happens next with her next week.

    I'm sure there are more scenes, I need to rewatch the episode. The episode did start off kind of slow with my least favourite storylines of Theon/Reek and Ramsay Snow (although kudos to Alfie Allen for portraying a completely broken man so heartbreakingly!), Bran and his visions (although seeing Ned Stark in this week's vision was kinda cool) and Stannis and Melisandre so the first half of the episode was not my favourite but once the Purple Wedding started things got awesome quickly. I do have one minor thing to nitpick though: I thought the breakfast before the wedding was a bit underwhelming, it's much more dramatic in the book. IMO they should have mentioned how rare the book Tyrion gave Joffrey was and more people should have spoken out against Joffrey's slashing of the book, such as Ser Kevan (was he even there?). But they captured the rest of the Purple Wedding perfectly so I will let that slide. Oh and apparently they recast Tommen, which is why I did not recognise the young, blond boy sitting up there with all the Lannisters. Seeing as the crown will now go to Tommen, I guess it makes sense that they cast an older actor for the role.

    Poor Tyrion! He really had a shitty day. First he gets ridiculed by his sadistic nephew and then he gets arrested for the murder of said nephew. Cersei is of course convinced that he is guilty but IMO that would be much too obvious for this show.

    (Huge book 3 spoiler!):
    Spoiler:
    I hope Tywin will give Tyrion the trial like in the books! Too bad Jaime got his hand chopped off and is now no longer a good fighter (as evidenced by his training with Bronn) or Tyrion could have asked for Jaime to be his champion in the trial by combat. Fortunately, he will have another option, I'm so psyched to see that particular fight scene. And of course Shae did not get on that ship but is held by Tywin and Cersei to appear as a star witness at the trial. I really hope they won't change that.


    Anyway after a slow start with characters and storylines I don't particularly care about, this episode turned out to be fantastic in its second half. I will miss Jack Gleeson as an actor but I'm still overjoyed that Joffrey is finally dead and I certainly won't miss the character! I love that they included Joffrey's death already in the second episode of the season, things will only get crazier from now on and the season is off to a terrific start.

    What did you guys think about "The Lion and the Rose"? Are you as happy as I am that Joffrey is dead?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Cori View Post
    I will miss Jack Gleeson as an actor but I'm still overjoyed that Joffrey is finally dead and I certainly won't miss the character!


    I agree! Jack Gleeson did an amazing job. It's to bad that he retired from acting. Hopefully he will return to acting, once he is done with his academic career.

    Originally posted by Cori View Post
    What did you guys think about "The Lion and the Rose"? Are you as happy as I am that Joffrey is dead?
    Noooooooooooo!

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    • #3
      I just rewatched the episode and had a few more thoughts.

      First off, as someone who dislikes dogs and is afraid of them, I was utterly terrified during the opening scene! The look on Theon's face when the dogs tore that poor girl apart broke my heart, as did his reaction later to the news of Robb's death. I wonder whether Locke will go after Jon Snow now. Hopefully, he won't be able to find both Bran and Rickon. As horrible as Theon's life is right now, at least he and Ramsay will now move towards Moat Cailin, which is held by the Greyjoys as far as I remember. So maybe, just maybe Theon will run into some family members there and may actually have a chance at escaping from cruel, sadistic Ramsay Snow. *keeps her fingers crossed*

      Upon rewatch I noticed that Lady Olenna did not only stare at Sansa's necklace, she actually touched it! This is getting more and more suspicious! Plus her line about who would kill someone at a wedding? Foreshadowing maybe?

      And can I just say how heartbreachingly beautiful Sigur Rós' version of "The Rains of Castamere" was at the end of the episode? You can listen to it again here: http://youtu.be/w3QW8PVyyNM

      And the band members themselves even had a cameo during the wedding reception, how cool is that?

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      • #4
        Honestly, I was wondering if Jack Gleason was singing "Rains" over the closing credits. Sounds like his singing voice might sound like that.

        Great episode, although I was only able to pay half-attention to it. Much like upon reading, I found myself pitying Joffrey as he died... just because nobody deserves to die like that. Great job by the make-up team. And it was poignant to see his actual parents rush to his side, however helplessly.

        This episode could really also have been titled Tyrion Lannister and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Really Bad Day, couldn't it? His day starts with having to curb Shae, hard, and ends with him getting accused of simultaneous regicide and kinslaying with really no credible way to defend himself.

        I'll have to rewatch to get the detail on the other plotlines but it seemed pretty solid.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Honestly, I was wondering if Jack Gleason was singing "Rains" over the closing credits. Sounds like his singing voice might sound like that.

        Great episode, although I was only able to pay half-attention to it. Much like upon reading, I found myself pitying Joffrey as he died... just because nobody deserves to die like that. Great job by the make-up team. And it was poignant to see his actual parents rush to his side, however helplessly.

        This episode could really also have been titled Tyrion Lannister and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Really Bad Day, couldn't it? His day starts with having to curb Shae, hard, and ends with him getting accused of simultaneous regicide and kinslaying with really no credible way to defend himself.

        I'll have to rewatch to get the detail on the other plotlines but it seemed pretty solid.
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        • #5
          Fantastic as always. Though, I need to watch again as I went out and had some drinks with some friends beforehand and was kinda maybe a little bit drunk so I know I missed some things here and there. Overall however, I was taken by how true to the books the episode was. Of course, with GRRM as the writer, what else could we expect?

          Kudos to Jack Gleeson. From the beginning he made Joffrey so easy to hate while at the same time allowing you to enjoy his presence. Great job by the guy. I really, really liked his performance.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Cori View Post
            - Jaime threatening Ser Loras about marrying Cersei and Loras replying to Jaime's "you will never marry her" "neither will you". Apparently, the whole of Westeros now knows about Cersei and Jaime.
            Uhm wasn't it stated in either the first or second book or within the first two seasons of the show (I've only read/watched them once) that Stannis sent messengers to a number of taverns throughout the country proclaiming that Joffrey was the b*stard son of Cersei and Jaime? Was that not also how Joffrey first heard of his parentage (even if he openly denied it) through hearing the rumours being spread in the streets of Kingslanding? I thought thanks to that the majority of Westeros knew of the rumours surrounding Joffrey's heritage even if most of them did not necessarily believe it.

            On top of that Ser Lora's was the former lover of Renly Baratheon whose claim to the throne (along with Stannis') was on the basis that Joffrey along with the other royal children were not the true heirs to the thrones as they were Lannister's and not Baratheons. So even if the general populous did not know of his heritage Ser Lora's certainly would have
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            • #7
              Renly never had even the remotest rational claim to the throne. He had to make that same argument but then *also* pretend he didn't have an older brother.

              But, yeah, seems that Joffrey (and Tommen and Myrcella) being bastards of incest is pretty much common knowledge, high and small folk alike, but it's the sort of thing it quickly became the social expectation (especially given the risk of being killed for treason) to pretend was just a lie, even while everybody laughs about it.

              Loras also knows he can mouth off to Jaime a little bit because there is really nothing Jaime himself can do about it, not in combat, not against him, because Loras is still exceptional in single combat and Jaime is more or less finished in that regard.

              I liked (minor spoiler distinction from books) that they used
              Spoiler:
              Bronn instead of Ser Ilyn as Jaime's sparring partner. For one thing, it's hard to really deal with the inner monologue Jaime has and his perception that Ser Ilyn laughs at him while sparring without making the actor spell it out in words; for another, it's another nice TV-created intersection of characters, like the Arya-Melisandre encounter. Of course, it does lose the logic of Jaime wanting a partner who literally can't talk about how crappy Jaime is vs. relying on Bronn to take money; someone else could always pay Bronn more.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                Renly never had even the remotest rational claim to the throne. He had to make that same argument but then *also* pretend he didn't have an older brother.]
                Oh yes I was aware of the fact that even taking into account Joffrey's true parentage Renly's claim was not legit due to the presence of Stannis. I was simply pointing out the fact that Joffrey's parentage was apart of his claim .

                Loras also knows he can mouth off to Jaime a little bit because there is really nothing Jaime himself can do about it, not in combat, not against him, because Loras is still exceptional in single combat and Jaime is more or less finished in that regard.
                Indeed! It may also have been used to serve as a reminder that considering the rumours that were going around it was probably not a good idea for Jaime to openly be acting like a jealous lover either, or openly discussing Cersei's unwillingness to bear the children of her husband for that matter.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
                  Uhm wasn't it stated in either the first or second book or within the first two seasons of the show (I've only read/watched them once) that Stannis sent messengers to a number of taverns throughout the country proclaiming that Joffrey was the b*stard son of Cersei and Jaime? Was that not also how Joffrey first heard of his parentage (even if he openly denied it) through hearing the rumours being spread in the streets of Kingslanding? I thought thanks to that the majority of Westeros knew of the rumours surrounding Joffrey's heritage even if most of them did not necessarily believe it.
                  Yes Stannis did send out those messages but I was always under the impression that most people considered them rumours and the crazy rantings of a man who wanted to claim the Iron Throne for himself. Plus most people, especially the smallfolk, were too afraid of the Lannisters to perpetuate the incest rumours or even confront the Lannisters directly about them. That's why I found it so surprising and refreshing to see Ser Loras confront Jaime directly. But then again, Ser Loras is an insolent and headstrong young knight, in fact in the books Jaime thinks he is a younger version of himself. So I guess it makes sense that it was Ser Loras who addressed the incest rumours, especially now that Jaime is crippled and no longer a physical threat to Ser Loras.

                  Btw anyone who wants a rundown of how the poison got to Joffrey's cup, check out this site, it's quite interesting: http://imgur.com/a/nqiIF

                  It does contain some book spoilers with respect to the type of poison that was used and its properties and some conclusions are being drawn re the identity of the poisoner(s), but it does not contain any spoilers about unaired episodes. Still, read at your own risk!

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                  • #10
                    I was surprised that they killed Jofrey so fast. I thought that they gonna kill him in the last season finale episode. I wander what the end going to be ? May be the great battle between the Night Watch and The Savages on The Wall ? Now the tv show is somewhere between the 3 - rd and 4 - th book so, I'm really interested about the end. There are really too many diferences between the books and the show . I already watch at them as two separate things. The books are the books, The show is the show. Well, the books are better IMO, but at least the characters fits very well in their on screen faces. I can't wait for the next episode. My favorites are Dany and Jon Snow. I want to see more of them.
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                    • #11
                      Well that was certainly better than the Red Wedding episode at least, in terms of faithfully bringing the heart and spirit of this epic scene alive onscreen. Aside from the stupidity of Jaime and Brienne being there and Cersei not being more hysterical (but I guess that is just a thing they don't do, given the way they toned down Cat's reaction as well) the only thing that was problematic/really missing that needed to be in the episode was during the gifting scene, when they didn't have Joffrey commenting that (ASOS book spoiler)
                      Spoiler:
                      he was familiar with the feel of Valyrian steel in his hand upon receiving his gift from Tywin. I don't know how they are going to have Tyrion and Jaime come to the realization that Joffrey was the one to send that assassin after Bran without that big clue, and that reveal was much needed...I hope they're not going to just forget about that mystery entirely.


                      Otherwise though the gifting scene was A+, especially when Joffrey slices up the book Tyrion gives him (I forgot that had happened, lmao, although I remembered him dissing the gift); although once again I have to question why Tywin would be dumb enough to give such a deadly weapon to such a psychopath, lol. I did also miss the scene where Tyrion and Varys discuss the true significance of the book he gave to Joffrey, but I can understand how that would be something cut for TV. (Although given the boring and pointless nonsense they do tend to film and include, it's less understandable).

                      I also thought it was weird that they had the wedding outside and during the day instead of at night in the Great Hall (kind of less convenient for Sansa's escape), but maybe it was a lighting thing. Otherwise I thought it was well done--the sense of danger and tension between Tyrion and Joffrey was palpable, the dwarf show had the same awful effect as in the book (although no Penny and her pig, I guess, for later!), Sansa's facial reactions were heartbreaking and wonderful, and the Tyrells were the wonderful trolls they are; even Loras was channeling his grandmother's sass with his epic sick burn of Jaime.

                      Olenna (ASOS spoiler)
                      Spoiler:
                      sure was obvious in her jewel grab when she was talking to Sansa though, lmao. It looks in the preview for next week that Margaery didn't know beforehand of the plan, however? That would be lame and stupid...girl, you're going to get to marry Tommen and be queen anyway, you are getting an upgrade!


                      Speaking of Tommen, I did not like them showing him laughing at the dwarf act, he is a sweetheart and would never. (I really hope they include his kittens--Ser Pounce!!!--on the show, but they probably won't because of how they had to age him up).

                      Even though it was stupid to have Jaime and Brienne at the wedding (it's really not a cosmetic change, bringing them back early), I did kind of enjoy Cersei's display of jealousy towards Brienne over Jaime (paralleling Jaime's obvious jealousy giffed above)--Brienne's reaction to her question delighted Jaime/Brienne shipper in me, while the jealousy outburst satisfied my Jaime/Cersei shipping, lol. Although idk why she would be jealous when she's supposedly "over" Jaime now and can't even touch him. *rolleyes* (Still annoyed that they didn't even embrace or anything since his return wtf. In the books her later distance makes more sense because it's related to Joffrey's death, but even then she was relieved and happy to see him initially!). Really not looking forward to the character assassination that it sounds like D&D have scheduled for J/C next epp...:/

                      Finally, props on the make-up job on Joffrey, and making him indeed turn purple, as befitting the Purple Wedding. His death scene was really well-acted, I will miss Jack Gleeson and his acting talents from the show (and I guess life in general since he's going to retire from acting). TBH, in terms of watching the show I was actually happier after the Red Wedding than this one, since Joffrey is generally far more entertaining and interesting to watch than stupid show!Robb and Flopisa were (I was celebrating at the knowledge that we'd never have to suffer through another scene with them again, they made Robb so awful).

                      Still though, watching the Purple Wedding onscreen gave me a certain amount of glee and pleasure, lol, and I am excited for the storyline to come (barring the awful changes in story I've heard about), since IMO the last third of ASOS between the Purple Wedding and the end is the most exciting and intense part of the book.

                      I actually enjoyed much of the rest of the episode as well. The vision thing Bran saw was really neat and artfully done/interesting (which isn't a way I would usually describe Bran scenes, lol). And while I have no patience for Ramsay or the way they dwell on him with added scenes sometimes, I was glad to see my bb Theon--his facial expressions killed me...

                      I kind of liked that we got to see him getting the news of Robb's death, since that happened offscreen in the book (I had forgotten he wouldn't know already yet on the show), so heartbreaking. ;_; I sure hope though that later we get to hear some of the lines of mourning from his internal monologue from the book regarding Robb--that is who he should have been speaking about instead of Ned Stark last season, since irl Ned was never really like a father to him (real fathers aren't ready to kill you if politically necessary). And with all the non-canon Ramsay torture porn they are always throwing in, it was good to see at least one thing from the books (him hunting women) mentioned, although I'm not sure what the deal with the random sadistic girlfriend is...it was a good example though of the kind of thing Theon has to witness all the time, and the continuing mental torment. The shaving scene was great in showing how much he has been cowed by Ramsay, that he is too afraid to slice his throat even when the opportunity was there...like how in the books he is afraid to hear him referred to as a Snow even when he's miles away from him. It was also great seeing Roose to class up the joint--I can't wait to see more of his interactions with Theon. I've seen some people complaining that the Ramsay/Theon scenes were out of place in this episode, but I rather disagree--I mean they had to have some other storylines featured besides the wedding, and unlike say, a Dany or Jon Snow scene there are a lot of parallels and similar themes between Ramsay/Theon and Joffrey/Sansa (right down to the goading Robb mentions in this epp), so it's more appropriate, almost.

                      Oh and I almost forgot about the Stannis scene! Shireen sighting! <33 Lmao forever at Grumpy Cat!Stannis going “I hate a great many things but I suffer them all the same.” So typical Stannis... I was glad he at least stood up for his own daughter though and refused to let his wife mess with her. I thought Melisandre's conversation with Shireen was interesting, and hope they include the more mysterious elements about her on the show. It's good they also included the people burning going on, and Selyse's fanaticism...The Shae/Tyrion scene was annoying and a fail (why doesn't she have a bigger sense of self-preservation?!) but oh well...I still wonder how they are going to play that out.

                      So TL;DR, a decent episode in all, better than last week I would say! I have to say too, a lack of Jon Snow/Wildlings/the Wall always makes for a better episode as well, for the most part.

                      Oh and I was pleasantly surprised at the mention of the Iron Bank, while Oberyn continues to be awesome.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by _Buffy_ View Post
                        I was surprised that they killed Jofrey so fast. I thought that they gonna kill him in the last season finale episode. I wander what the end going to be ? May be the great battle between the Night Watch and The Savages on The Wall ? Now the tv show is somewhere between the 3 - rd and 4 - th book so, I'm really interested about the end. There are really too many diferences between the books and the show . I already watch at them as two separate things. The books are the books, The show is the show. Well, the books are better IMO, but at least the characters fits very well in their on screen faces. I can't wait for the next episode. My favorites are Dany and Jon Snow. I want to see more of them.

                        I Thought the same - but now that I think about it - there is so much material to cover for this season that having this now makes sense. It is especially effective coming so close to the Red Wedding episode and how the family song was used for both weddings. All through the episode, all I kept thinking was that Cersei would have all her smirks at the humiliation that her darling monster was causing Tyrion would fall back on her 1000 times harder.

                        Someone please refresh my memory - I thought Joffrey had been given a Valerian sword - or was that a different special sword he used in the Blackwater battle?
                        Last edited by cil_domney; 16-04-14, 03:57 AM.
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                        • #13
                          Stoney, as much I remember, they split Ned Stark's sword on two. Because Ned 's sword was too big and two heavy. So, they maked a two swords and give one of this swords to Jofrey. It wasn't the same blade in the previous season. Plus, Jofrey didn't fight in "Black Water "fight. I liked very much Tyrion's speach he gave to Jofery - ... how "brave" king is he and how he didn't fight in the battle. Tyrion was great in this moemnt. Jofrey try so hard to humiliate him and Tyrion didn't buy it.
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                          • #14
                            His ridiculous "Heart-eater" was a blade he had commissioned, but it was presumably worked from whatever the finest common steel available to royalty was, it was still an "ordinary" sword. The idea of "new" Valyrian swords just really wasn't on anyone's radar for the reasons Jaime discussed (of course, one seriously must question how there are three living smiths that know how to work the Valyrian steel if there hadn't been a new blade for a few hundred years -- what do they train on?).
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                            • #15
                              I wondered that as well. I guess most of their skill may be in trying to make reproductions and in maintaining existing ones?
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