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3.05 "Kissed By Fire" episode discussion thread

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  • 3.05 "Kissed By Fire" episode discussion thread

    I know, I keep repeating myself but this season just blows my mind! The show has never been better IMO and this week's episode was another brilliant installment. So many scenes and moments that I loved, I could not even choose a favourite one!

    I loved Arya's storyline throughout the episode, from her trying to kill the Hound when Beric Dondarrian couldn't (her "burn in hell" line gave me goosebumps), to begging Gendry not to leave her to being disillusioned with the whole Brotherhood Without Banners. Her pain and anguish were palpable throughout the episode and Maisie Williams did an excellent job portraying those feelings. After Beric and Thoros told Arya about the times that the Lightening Lord died and how Thoros brough him back and how Arya then asked if he could bring back a man without a head, that just broke my heart! Of the Stark kids, Arya seems to be the one most affected by Ned's death and it is always great to have a little reminder of that on the show even after all this time.

    The Jaime and Brienne bathtub scene was everything I could have hoped for and more! Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was absolutely brilliant in the whole scene, the way Jaime told Brienne about how and why he killed Mad King Aerys and thus turned him into the Kingslayer gave be goosebumps and in the end made me tear up. There was such anguish in Jaime's voice, my heart broke for him. And of course he raises an interesting question: is it justified to stick to your oath and protect the king at all costs even if you know that the king is mad and evil and bloodthirsty and wants you to kill your own father and wants to kill countless innocent people? Is what Jaime did really so without honour when he only put the greater good above his oath as a Kingsguard? Even Brienne who undisputedly has a lot of honour did not know how she would have acted. The redemption of Jaime Lannister continues and for me personally it is an absolute joy to watch. And of course as a Jaime/Brienne shipper, seeing Jaime almost faint in Brienne's arms and asking her to call him Jaime made me squee so much.

    Oh Littlefinger, you sly dog! Sending one of his minions to seduce Loras (which don't get me wrong is appreciated, yay for the show being much more generous with gay sex scenes than the books! ) and finding out about the Tyrell wedding plot and telling Cersei about it and possibly even suggesting Tyrion as a possible groom for Sansa, very clever indeed! As someone who wants Sansa to leave with Littlefinger, I appreciate that he did that but of course I feel really bad for both Sansa who just cannot seem to catch a break and have something good in her life (even if she has no idea that Loras is gay and she probably wouldn't get much enjoyment out of her marriage to him) and Tyrion who is once again forced to do something he doesn't want to by his cruel father. I'm still mad at the show creators that they present Loras as a viable candidate for marriage when he is in the Kingsguard and is not allowed to marry. And did they also call Loras the heir of Highgarden in this episode or have I misheard? If they did, shame on them. Not only is his older brother Willas the heir of Highgarden, Loras again as Kingsguard would not be allowed to inherit anything. It really bugs me that the creators who usually have such respect for the books continue screwing up in this regard! Oh well, since this stupid Loras/Sansa marriage will never happen now, I guess this will all be dropped soon.

    When Cersei was all gleeful in that last scene when Tywin told Tyrion that he needs to marry Sansa, I was thinking to myself "it'll be your turn next, bitch. No need to be so gleeful.". On the one hand, I do feel a bit bad for Cersei though that she is pushed into yet another loveless marriage but on the other hand considering all the evil things she has done and lacking the self-awareness and feelings of remorse Jaime has I cannot bring myself to care all that much about her fate.

    I understand why Robb felt the need to execute Lord Karstark but in the grand scheme of things this was a big mistake. He has lost half of his army now and wants to try to seek help from the Freys whom he has betrayed by not marrying one of them. Book 3 spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    The minute Robb started mentioning the Freys, I started to cringe and dread the things to come so much. The GoT creators are setting things up convincingly but I honestly have no idea how I will be able to stomach seeing the Red Wedding on screen. It was horrible enough reading about it and picturing it all in my mind but actually seeing it on screen ...


    I'm so happy that Jon Snow and Ygritte finally got it on! And it looks as if Jon Snow does know something. Those two are so cute together, I wish, just like Ygritte, that they could stay in their cave together forever.

    Lots of new characters were introduced again this week. It was nice to meet Grey Worm (who is very easy on the eyes!), Qyburn, Queen Selyse Baratheon (who is just as nuts and blinded by faith as she is in the books) and her daughter Shireen. I have to say, I thought it was a great idea to make Shireen and Davos friends and she being the one who teaches him to read, that was sweet.

    So another fantastic episode that I have already watched twice and will surely rewatch a third (and fourth, etc.) time! What did you guys think of this week's episode?

  • #2
    Ok so I disappeared out of the discussion due to lack of time but I loved this episode so much even more then the last one (if that can be possible considering the amazing closing scene we got last week) so I am back with some comments.

    First off count me in to the Jamie/Brienne shippers that scene is probably the best scene ever IMO that they have done. I have never been that invested in Jamie but that scene turned me around I am actually looking forward to the development of his character now. And Brienne has been a favourite of mine for a while she just got better with that scene so yey. Bows down in front of the actors because for real

    Loved Arya in this episode it was a nice call back to her father and truly a heart-breaking moment and I loved her talk with Gendry and the fact that she is smart enough to see tough the whole Lord of Light crap.

    I am dreading the development with Dany/Jorah now (who I ship by the way…hides in a corner. I know my ships are mostly unconventional and weird…) but anyway it is safe to say that that will probably never happen.
    Or would it? I should just start reading the books. I loved Jorah’s whole I want her to be queen thing but I agree if it will be necessary for him to leave he should (although I will miss him, random ship attack here sorry)

    I agree total thumps up for the gay sex scene I wish more shows would be as GoT when it comes to those scenes. And Littlefinger is just creepy sorry and the way he asked Sansa to call him by his name and kissed her hand jut gave me goostbumps of the wrong kind yugh poor Sansa for being so gullible still I love her character and I love that aspect of her character where she still is quite naive I think it fits her she has lost a lot of her innocence but the fact that she can not see that Loras is gay for example or seems to not see that Littlefinger is creepy is still naive on her part and just will get her into more trouble I dread.

    Poor Tyrion too although I have to say I love Tywin he is a great evil character a better one then Cersei IMO who I feel nothing for and have felt nothing for, for quite a while now which is a shame.

    I have to say the Yigritte John Snow scene came a bit out of the blue for me but all right it is development and I want to get inressted in John again because also that has been lacking for me in season 2

    Ok more possitivness, I continue to love Margery and her grandma especially her grandma she just makes every scene she is in better. It was also lovely to see Selyse who I find very intressting, because I love crazy characters and she seems like one also loved the actress and to see that side of Stannis was nice as well

    I think the highlight of the episode for me apart from the Jamie/Brianne scene was the scene with Robb, he knows he is doing the wrong thing and then he still does it and it is just filmed beautifully I really got scared and uneasy watching that and then the whole deal with the Frey’s there is just this doom upon Robb it seems and oh man will I hate if anything happens there which I am sure will because Catheline is my favorite character (which I assume means she will die a painful death)

    This season as a whole seems to be so much better then the last season and I am really enjoying it. Can not wait for next week hope to see Theon again there and a continuation of the Robb storyline
    Last edited by Mara; 29-04-13, 03:49 PM.
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    • #3
      Very strong episode. Very well-acted throughout, even if the pace definitely slowed for a moment.

      The Jon/Ygritte stuff didn't do much for me, to be honest, because I'm honestly not sure what Jon's end game is here anyway. He lied, as best as I understand from the series and the first two books, about the strength of Castle Black, and that lie will probably cost him... but not about which castles were manned. He killed the Halfhand on the premise of getting under with Mance's wildlings to salvage a mess that Jon himself made, and in the spirit of espionage, I don't think him sleeping with Ygritte is all that problematic (I mean, I assume the Night's Watch has heard of espionage before, and wouldn't behead one of their own for practicing it). But I also don't know how invested he even is in the Night's Watch at this point, given his disillusionment -- I believe what he told Mance, he wants to fight for the side that fights for the living. But I also sincerely doubt he wants a host of thousands of wildlings stomping what's left of his home and family into the ground when they go south.

      Jaime's apologia about his role as Kingslayer and a man without honor was very impressive, but ultimately, I don't think it takes the stain off what he did. I have yet to hear anyone in the show (or even in the book) point to this distinction and really talk about it, but I've also heard it pointed out specifically before, without comment, by Ned, and now by Jaime himself -- he literally stabbed the man in the back. If he was that torn by moral compunction away from his vow as a knight of the Kingsguard, at least face the man. The Warcraft 3 nerd in me says "dude, even Arthas faced his father, the king, when he killed him". But it was a moving speech, an insight into him, and I think his asking for Brienne, at least, to know him as something other than the damn Kingslayer summed up a lot of Jaime's shame.

      Lady Olenna really should just rule until Dany shows up.

      Poor Sansa, again. It would be nice for her to really warm up to the fact that none of these people are well-intentioned by her, not even sweet, pretty, friendly Margaery, happily conspiring to send her to what would be a lonely and loveless marriage and doing so by playing on Sansa's delusions of courtliness and chivalry that have somehow survived the Lannisters and Baratheons. I don't blame Sansa for backburnering Littlefinger, though, because Littlefinger is pretty vile in most respects, and I'd sooner she trust her hand to a basket full of coral snakes than to Littlefinger, it would be safer.

      I loved the end with Tywin, Cersei, and Tyrion. Sort of pays off what I've been saying about Tywin, and how he's over his utterly disappointing children. I laughed out loud at Tyrion referring to himself as another way that Sansa would suffer. Also at the thought of Dinklage playing the scene of Tyrion seeing Cat again and going "...mom!" But in fairness, of all the hyenas and vultures hovering around poor Sansa, Tyrion is probably the least disappointing person to whom she could be married off. I'm more worried about vaguely-psycho Shae stabbing everyone in the Red Keep to death, actually.

      Arya is sort of the emotional center of this series I think, and her anger and her disillusionment is truly gutwrenching. I just shudder waiting to see the next way it will all go horribly wrong for her, with this sense of almost total certainty that she will not be taken to Riverrun and safely to her king brother and mother.

      Anyone else think the priest guy looks a little like William Hurt?

      Everything at Dragonstone made me sad. I really do admire Davos, and I love that he even admitted to being a traitor and wouldn't speak against Stannis to the girl. I think this episode humanized Stannis at least a little.

      Hmmm, what else? Ah, yes, Danaerys and her people. The thing about Grey Worm honoring her with his choice of a name is great. On one level, I think it's also that the Unsullied will never really be "free" in the way she wishes them to be, they'll never really "get it" in the way she hopes, but they do recognize the difference she made for them and that's plenty. I like Barristan, but it was crap that he basically tried to bench Jorah -- it's foolish reasoning, anyway. The commonfolk and the nobility of Westeros alike will probably be much more uncomfortable about the powerful army that doesn't even speak their language, and o hai DARGONS, to give Dany too much fuss over having an exile in her Queensguard (or as her Hand, for that matter, as an option). What I really hope we don't have, I would say it would be a big misstep as book or show, would be to try to have some tension between Jorah and Dany over the scandalous truth of how he came into her service. Sorry, that's long since moot. He saved her from the assassin. He stayed beside her when his and her life were very much in the balance as Khal Drogo was dying. He nearly died of thirst and exposure to follow her across the Red Waste. That debt is already paid, any doubt already answered. Please don't waste our time on it being drama.

      And Robb. There is a sort of irony to me that Robb makes much the same mistake that Joffrey made when he killed Ned. Yes, Karstark betrayed him, unambiguously. No, he couldn't ignore it. But the hostage plan was wiser, or for that matter, so would have been Cersei's plan for Ned -- make him take the black (assuming there is anybody up at Castle Black left to... give... the black? I guess one would say?). The only thing he did right is do as his father would have done -- I like that "old way" concept, it's something I have actually argued about the real and modern world.

      One thing I was a little stunned by though, actually felt a little inconsistent, is Talisa suddenly seeming very enthusiastic about Robb's great plan (and it is a great plan, if he has some idea of how to force the Freys to his side), because there's going to be a lot of blood and severed limb involved in sacking Casterly Rock and/or Lannisport. I mean, I suppose the fact that (to use Margaery's long ago phrase) her husband is her king and her king is her husband has taken her firmly out of the Switzerland category, but she looked like his sudden inspiration actually get her motor revving a little bit. Maybe a choice by the actress, and not necessarily a great one? I dunno, felt off to me.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by Cori View Post
        I'm still mad at the show creators that they present Loras as a viable candidate for marriage when he is in the Kingsguard and is not allowed to marry. And did they also call Loras the heir of Highgarden in this episode or have I misheard? If they did, shame on them. Not only is his older brother Willas the heir of Highgarden, Loras again as Kingsguard would not be allowed to inherit anything. It really bugs me that the creators who usually have such respect for the books continue screwing up in this regard!
        I think this is quite simply a deliberate change from the books. The show has SO many characters that there is simply no reason for Willas to exist because Loras, who is an established character and a more important character, can serve the same role.

        Basically, Willas being the other brother is a book thing. In the show, when Loras 'rescued' King's Landing and he requested that Joffrey become engaged to Margery, there was no mention of Loras joining Joffrey's Kings Guard. So show!Loras isn't on the King's Guard. And since there's been no mention of Willas whatsoever (and his 'engagement' was his only function) I think it's safe to conclude that in the show, there is no such thing as a Willas Tyrell. Show Loras is Loras and Willas (maybe they'll even amuse us by telling us that Loras' middle name is Willas. I think the writers are just doing a judicious (and defensible) bit of editing the number of characters.

        The only thing I actually regret in this change is the loss of the scene where Loras says he'll never marry because he lost his one true love (Renly. Of course he stated it in a way that never made it explicit to the listening character that it was Renly he was referring to... even though it was transparently Renly to the reader.) I miss that one pure character moment. Other than that, I think it makes perfect sense that Loras is the one in the marriage-go-round because he's an actual character that serves more roles in the show. Willas was a cipher. Better to give this stuff to the established character and the actor who is on contract. It's a defensible change from book to show.

        Speaking of another character deletion -- no Patchface! (Can't say I'm regretful. He creeped me the heck out.) I think it was a smart switch on the writer's part to delete Shireen's demented brain-damaged fool (literally, he's braindamaged, having drowned in the ocean before being 'saved' so his ditty about the ocean was always crreeeeeeepeeeee) I thought it worked perfectly well to have her sing the "I know, I know" dirges. (Anyone else ever have the sense that Patchface was semi prophetic in his creepy little songs?) Anyway, I approve there being no Patchface and giving his song duty over to poor little Shireen.

        The Shireen/Seleyse/Stannis/Melisendre thing strikes me as a bit of a take on the Romanovs, the last Tsar of Russia, with Nikolas and Alexandra falling under the spell of scary priest Rasputin out of desperation over their hemophiliac son.
        Last edited by shipperx; 29-04-13, 05:35 PM.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cori View Post
          I'm still mad at the show creators that they present Loras as a viable candidate for marriage when he is in the Kingsguard and is not allowed to marry. And did they also call Loras the heir of Highgarden in this episode or have I misheard? If they did, shame on them. Not only is his older brother Willas the heir of Highgarden, Loras again as Kingsguard would not be allowed to inherit anything. It really bugs me that the creators who usually have such respect for the books continue screwing up in this regard! Oh well, since this stupid Loras/Sansa marriage will never happen now, I guess this will all be dropped soon.
          I agree with shipperx. I don't think he is part of the Kingsguard in the show and that the writers have wisely made a composite of Loras & Willas to save us from having to meet yet another character. It serves the story better here anyway. Willas's only function has been transferred to a character we already know and am well acquainted with. I have no problem with this deviation. Quite frankly, I am thankful for it.

          And oh man, I freaked a bit when I saw Qyburn. There is some shady shit going down soon enough with him.

          FANTASTIC ep. What a monologue by Jamie! The entire scene gave me chills to hear him tell it. It was like 6 or so minutes of nothing but words and emotion. And to hear him tell Brienne that he trusts her was awesome. She can certainly inspire people with her inherent goodness and profound sense of honor and duty.

          The Arya/Gendry scene gutted me. But he's right. She'd only ever be "milady."

          And don't worry Mara, I entertain some strange ships myself. I even have a soft spot for Dany/Jorah.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mara View Post
            First off count me in to the Jamie/Brienne shippers that scene is probably the best scene ever IMO that they have done. I have never been that invested in Jamie but that scene turned me around I am actually looking forward to the development of his character now. And Brienne has been a favourite of mine for a while she just got better with that scene so yey. Bows down in front of the actors because for real
            Yay, I'm glad I'm not the only one!

            I am dreading the development with Dany/Jorah now (who I ship by the way…hides in a corner. I know my ships are mostly unconventional and weird…) but anyway it is safe to say that that will probably never happen. Or would it? I should just start reading the books. I loved Jorah’s whole I want her to be queen thing but I agree if it will be necessary for him to leave he should (although I will miss him, random ship attack here sorry)
            Oh don't worry, you are by far not the only Dany/Jorah shipper in fandom.


            I have to say the Yigritte John Snow scene came a bit out of the blue for me but all right it is development and I want to get inressted in John again because also that has been lacking for me in season 2
            Really? I was surprised it didn't happen sooner. Jon has been attracted to Ygritte ever since he first laid eyes on her and vice versa. Ever since he met her, Jon tried to fight his attraction for Ygritte until he couldn't do it anymore in this week's episode.

            Originally posted by shipperx View Post
            I think this is quite simply a deliberate change from the books. The show has SO many characters that there is simply no reason for Willas to exist because Loras, who is an established character and a more important character, can serve the same role.

            Basically, Willas being the other brother is a book thing. In the show, when Loras 'rescued' King's Landing and he requested that Joffrey become engaged to Margery, there was no mention of Loras joining Joffrey's Kings Guard. So show!Loras isn't on the King's Guard. And since there's been no mention of Willas whatsoever (and his 'engagement' was his only function) I think it's safe to conclude that in the show, there is no such thing as a Willas Tyrell. Show Loras is Loras and Willas (maybe they'll even amuse us by telling us that Loras' middle name is Willas. I think the writers are just doing a judicious (and defensible) bit of editing the number of characters.
            I just rewatched the season 2 finale because I was so sure that in the scene where Loras asks Joffrey to marry Margaery there is also mention of him joining the Kingsguard. I guess I imagined that or mixed it up with the books, my mistake. Still, as a book reader this annoys me greatly. I can understand not wanting another character on the show but they wouldn't even have needed to cast him, they could just have mentioned him. Plus Loras was in Renly's Kingsguard so it would have made sense for him to join Joffrey's as well, especially since Margaery now knows from Sansa what kind of man Joffrey is so if Loras was in the Kingsguard he would be able to protect his sister. But whatever, maybe he will join later on to avoid getting married to Cersei or something. This just bugged me and took some enjoyment out of an otherwise excellent episode for me!

            The only thing I actually regret in this change is the loss of the scene where Loras says he'll never marry because he lost his one true love (Renly. Of course he stated it in a way that never made it explicit to the listening character that it was Renly he was referring to... even though it was transparently Renly to the reader.) I miss that one pure character moment.
            Oh yes me too, I loved that scene in the book!

            Speaking of another character deletion -- no Patchface! (Can't say I'm regretful. He creeped me the heck out.) I think it was a smart switch on the writer's part to delete Shireen's demented brain-damaged fool (literally, he's braindamaged, having drowned in the ocean before being 'saved' so his ditty about the ocean was always crreeeeeeepeeeee) I thought it worked perfectly well to have her sing the "I know, I know" dirges. (Anyone else ever have the sense that Patchface was semi prophetic in his creepy little songs?) Anyway, I approve there being no Patchface and giving his song duty over to poor little Shireen.
            In this instance, I completely agree with you. Patchface always annoyed me in the books so yes good riddance! It's a much better idea to have Davos be Shireen's friend. I love that she wants to teach him how to read.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Cori View Post
              I just rewatched the season 2 finale because I was so sure that in the scene where Loras asks Joffrey to marry Margaery there is also mention of him joining the Kingsguard. I guess I imagined that or mixed it up with the books, my mistake. Still, as a book reader this annoys me greatly. I can understand not wanting another character on the show but they wouldn't even have needed to cast him, they could just have mentioned him. Plus Loras was in Renly's Kingsguard so it would have made sense for him to join Joffrey's as well, especially since Margaery now knows from Sansa what kind of man Joffrey is so if Loras was in the Kingsguard he would be able to protect his sister. But whatever, maybe he will join later on to avoid getting married to Cersei or something. This just bugged me and took some enjoyment out of an otherwise excellent episode for me!
              I'm a book reader too, but I think it's good they replaced Willas with Loras in the show. First, like others have mentioned it serves to not having too much new names introduced. But secondly, I think it works in relation to the story as well, since Sansa has been infatuated with Loras from the start. So it's sad to see poor Sansa (clueless about him being gay) get all happy with the prospect of marrying the Knight of Flowers and thinking she'll get her happy ever after after all. So I think that's much better to see onscreen than the book scene with Sansa trying to convince herself that she will love Willas Tyrell (whom she's never met.)

              Originally posted by shipperx View Post
              Speaking of another character deletion -- no Patchface! (Can't say I'm regretful. He creeped me the heck out.) I think it was a smart switch on the writer's part to delete Shireen's demented brain-damaged fool (literally, he's braindamaged, having drowned in the ocean before being 'saved' so his ditty about the ocean was always crreeeeeeepeeeee) I thought it worked perfectly well to have her sing the "I know, I know" dirges. (Anyone else ever have the sense that Patchface was semi prophetic in his creepy little songs?) Anyway, I approve there being no Patchface and giving his song duty over to poor little Shireen.
              Yeah, I didn't miss the Patchface as well. Also reading the books I always mixed him up with the Fool from Robin Hobb's "Farseer Trilogy" who to my mind was quite creepy as well. But like you I always felt as well that Patchface's songs were prophetic - so perhaps they'll give that function to Shireen indeed. If these songs really are so important.

              Overall, fantastic episode. Love this show.
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              • #8
                Beric coming back from the dead, wow! Didn't expect that. Jaime having his stump ministered to, that was gore-tastic. Dead babies in test tubes. The show is getting more magical and there is more 'horror' and darkness.

                Jon Snow is soooo dull. Honestly I don't care what happens to him, or any of those in his storyline. His acting has improved though, so that's good. He needs pairing with more interesting characters, because he's too dull to lead. I have no interest in his romance with Ygritte at all. His sexual knowledge, similar to Pod in the last ep, showing the men you'd least expect seem to be the greatest lovers, so further appealing to 14 year old boys, and making women everywhere roll their eyes.

                I wish Jon had some of Arya's fire. Her scene with Gendry was so sweet. I hope he survives. I hope these two meet again.

                Jaime's story was interesting, but I think him not trusting Ned to listen to his side of the story says more about the guilt he felt than about Ned Stark. If Jaime has spoken, explained, I have no doubt Ned would have listened, but Jaime's own guilt kept his mouth shut, and you cannot blame Ned for that.

                Littlefinger is still endlessly interesting and hateful in equal parts. So funny Sansa telling him he's so kind and how good he's been to her. Poor Sansa. All the Starks are innocents in their own ways, a characteristic passed on from their father maybe.

                Sansa and Tyrion The thought of these two together is wonderful!

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