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Your Top 5 (or more!) Favourite Ships of All Time

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  • #91
    Rose got a lot of hatred from parts of the fandom after TLJ and the actress was bullied online. There are lots of bad fans in the SW fandom who whine about things like a woman being the hero/protagonist or "forced diversity" as they call it. Kelly Marie Tran got some comments to the effect of "if I see an Asian woman in SW, she should be hot, why couldn't they cast someone like Grace Park".

    I don't mean that anyone who doesn't ship interracial couples is racist - that would be silly - but I did find it weird that the fandom so overwhelmingly ignored Finnrey even as a possibility after TFA. I wasn't even invested in any ships, but I found it really surprising - and every other option seemed more popular, from Reylo to Rey being asexual, lesbian or single because she's a "strong woman who needs no man". But similar dynamics usually become popular and people tend to root for relationships like that and/or for characters like Finn to "get the girl". For people to even ignore it as a possibility was surprising to me. Also, Finn never showed explicit romantic interest in Rose or Poe, but people still thought those romances would make sense, and many took Finn/Rose to be a done deal after TLJ (though it seems they ignored that in TROS, too). Of course, those would also be interracial relationships, but people tend to be less hostile to those than a white lead + POC pairing (particularly white lead + black person pairings).

    I know how the minds if racist white dudes work, I had two uncles who emigrated to USA in their youth and became really racist (or they already were, but they didn't see many non-white people before they went to ISA). My mom, who had more contact with him and visited him in USA before my birth, used to tell me as a bizarre fact that her brother was incredibly hostile and upaet about any white women in relationships with black mem. I've seen something similar on IMDB forums a few years ago, when some were whining about the fact that heroines of Star Wars (after TFA), Supergirl (season 1) and Agent Carter (season 2) all had black love interests. None of these relationships ended up happening in canon, anyway.

    Regarding Jessica Jones, I thought their relationship (which is from the comics, only there they are a married couple rather than one time sex partners) wás electric - and I was shocked to learn that there was a huge fandom of Jessica/Kilgrave shippers instead (!). I get that they love David Tennant, but Kilgrave was an unredeemable villain and her rapist/abuser and she never had any romantic feelings for him. And sure, David is hot, but Mike Colter (Luke) is super hot, so that cannot be the only reason.
    Sleepy Hollow is a show where a lot of fans shipped the leads - Ichabod and Abbie (she was black), but the show runners didn't just insist on them being platonic, but reduced Abbie's role over time, and wrote her out of the show when the actress was unsatisfied.
    Many in the Flash fandom is very hostile to Candice Patton, who plays Iris West and Barry's main love interest. (Who is black in the show though not in the comics - even though Jesse Martin, a black actor, was cast as Iris' dad before she was cast). The writing of her and Barry's relationship wasn't the greatest, but that's not her fault - but she got a lot of hate and racist slurs on Twitter. There was similarly anomosity towards Uhura and Spock/Uhura in nuTrek fandom.
    Even Tyrone and Tandy in Cloak & Dagger get "they would be better as friends" comments, and they are a romantic couple in the comics, so while they didn't get to that stage before the show was cancelled, it was always obvious that's where it was going to go.

    With Rick and Michonne, it was a big surprise when it happened. Few people expected it. I've realized that I had never considered it, but when someone pointed out: if Rick had had that kind of close friendship and partnership (and even a found family dynamic - considering her being a surrogate mom to his son) with a woman played by the actress who played Maggie or Andrea, wouldn't most people think that was an obvious ship? And I realized; holy crap, they're right. I was also subconsciously affected by common prejudices - few people think that a woman who looks like Danai Gurira (dark skinned, African features - you rarely see women who look like that on TV) could be attractive to a white guy like Rick. John Boyega is also dark skinned and with African features, neither of them fit the Eurocentric beauty standards.

    Add to this the fact that most of the shipping on Tumblr and fanfiction sites is dominated by slash ships between white men. Some of these make sense - like Cap/Bucky - but some make you scratch your head - apparently, one of the most popular ships in MCU fanfiction is Coulson/Hawkeye?! They had one conversation in one movie, that was their whole interaction. Cap/Tony is also very popular, in addition to Cap/Bucky, but almost no one ships Tony/Rhodie or Cap/Falcon.
    Lots of fans of The Flash insist that Barry and Iris are wrong as a romantic couple and that they are practically siblings because her dad adopted him when he was 11 after his parents' death - but fandoms has no problem shipping such non-canon ships as Jon/Sansa (biological cousins who have grown up together as siblings and believe themseves to be half-siblings and see themselves as siblings), Thor and Loki (adoptive brothers, grew up together, didn't even find out they weren't biological brothers before adulthood, see themselves as brothers) or The Winchester brothers from Supernatural or Petrelli brothers from Heroes (literal brothers in every possible way).

    It's not just one or two cases - I could dismiss those. It's so many cases that it starts looking like a pattern.
    Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 07-01-20, 05:03 PM.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    • #92
      That's a horrible pattern, but those examples seem very much to fit it. You mentioning Cloak and Dagger reminded me of a few mixed pairing in Runaways actually, with Nico and Karolina, Gertrude and Chase and Robert and Janet. I just happily accepted them in the show but now wonder how much the fan base does.

      Really interested to hear JJ and Luke are married in the comics. I'm not a huge fan of their relationship for totally superficial reasons that I don't find him attractive because he's really muscly and I prefer lean guys, but I can't deny they certainly did have electricity. Shipping her with Kilgrave I personally do find quite gross.

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      • #93
        redtent:
        I plan to binge watch it when it ends.
        Good plan! I'd be glad to hear what you think of it.

        flow
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        • #94
          On the Star Wars thing? I heard that Oscar Isaac said that there was an implied romance between his character and Finn (John Boyega). But the studio wasn't ready for that. There's at least a strong bond you can see in the film between them. The whole Rose situation is a disgrace. It shows the worse possible side of the internet and fandom. Its hard to know why there's not more of her character in the new film. One reason might be because there are so many characters in that film and not enough time for all of them. The final film of the trilogy was always going to put the focus more on the main characters that have been built up since Force Awakens.

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          • #95
            I read that the film was supposed to be much longer but was cut because they ran out of editing time. Rose lost a lot of scenes because of that. Everyone's calling for a 3 hour director's cut to be released. I was going to add a link but there are too many to choose from.


            I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

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            • #96
              About interracial pairings. Clive Babineux/Dale Bozzio from iZombie was very popular pair in iZombie fandom. At least in season 2, before their life became a little more complicated. I don't even remember a single post in discussion threads on reddit at that time which would object to them being a pair. I had quite liked it too. But I can't remember now any other black/white fictional pair that I cared about. Not that I even remember much of them anyway. Maybe racism had nothing to do with people don't liking b/w pairs. Maybe it's just there are very few of them in the first place and most of existing ones aren't very memorable or interesting?

              As anecdotal evidence. I don't care much about personal life of american celebrities and watched a lot of american TV shows, but I'm pretty sure I can name more real life b/w celebrity pairs than fictional b/w pairs.


              P.S. I did remember another b/w pair I liked. Greg/Heather in first season of "Crazy ex Girlfriend".
              Last edited by Alce; 08-01-20, 04:45 PM.

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              • #97
                Gunn and Fred are an interracial fictional pair and I think they were very popular. There are still people who think they were better suited than Fred and Wesley.

                Since I have recently watched Carnival Row there also is an interracial couple (Imogen and Mr. Agreus)although I doubt they will become highly popular. There is an interesting twist though because they actually play being an interracial couple because the guy is not only black but also belongs to the fae which are the underdogs in Carnival Row.

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                • DeepBlueJoy
                  DeepBlueJoy commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yup, I always thought they were more suited, and race had nothing to do with it. They are both resourceful, practical working class kids who make each other laugh. They have great chemistry. W/F has depressingness

              • #98
                It is virtually de rigueur on British tv not to have at least one interracial couple in a tv show. So much so that it's hardly noticeable anymore. Although recently there were issues with the BBC's A Christmas Carol, with some people unaware that there were black people in England in the 19th century There was a lovely twitter thread of 19th century photos of interracial couples in the UK.

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                • #99
                  Interracial couples: Kathy and Heathcliffe. http://theconversation.com/was-emily...ff-black-85341
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                  • Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                    Interracial couples: Kathy and Heathcliffe. http://theconversation.com/was-emily...ff-black-85341
                    Yes, they were an interracial couple, as anyone who's read the novel shoud know. But the article is dumb.

                    First off, no, it's clear in the actual novel that Heathcliff is not white and that all the white English people perceive him as a non-white, brown person. That's not ambiguous or up for discussion. They mention his "dark" or "sallow" skin, call him a Gypsy or say that he looks like one (which should be a hint - Romani are brown people of South Asian origin; I can never understand the Hollywood habit of casting white people as Romani), Mr Earnshaw brought him from Liverpool, he spoke "gibberish" (aka a foreign language) at first, and various people make a lot of guesses as to where he can be from based in his looks. Mr Linton speculates that he is a "little Lascar, or an American or Spanish castaway". Lascars were sailors who worked for the East India company, who were from South Asia, Southeast Asia or the Arab world, as Google and Wiki explains. In the 18th century parlance, I believe the American race were Native Americans. As for Spanish, I'm not that level of expert for terms a late century Yorkshireman would have used, but either he had no idea what Spaniards looked like, or he was maybe talking about the Spanish colonies.
                    Nelly Dean, when she tries to.comfort Heathcliff about not being like the blond and blue eyed heir Edgar, says "Maybe your father was the Emperor of China, and your mother an Indian queen..."

                    From the text, it's really obvious that he is perceived as racially different and what people would call "racially ambiguous" (read: the people speaking have no clue what other ethnicities look like). We don't know where he is from, but he is definitely not white.
                    The other thing we know is that he is mixed race and has white ancestry, because his son with pale, blonde, blue eyed Isabella turns out to be pale, blond and blue eyed (we don't know how much Emily Bronte knew about genetics, but the text is what it is).
                    And finally, we know that Nelly doesn't think he is black. At least not "regular black", which Nelly uses in the same breath as her China-India comment, because being a regular black is the most "extreme" racial otherness that makes you ugly in her eyes.

                    The title is therefore also dumb. Was he black (meaning, Sub-Saharan African)? Maybe, but probably not. It is possible that he was a mixed race man of partially Africsn ancestry (say, 1/4) who was light-skinned enough for a black guy that English people would mistake him for those other ethnicities. Maybe he was partially Malagasi - they are of Sub-Saharan African and Southeast Asian origin, which would explain some of Nelly's comments. But a number of other ethnicities seem more likely based on the descriptions I mentioned - from South Asian, to Southeast Asian and Polynesian, to a Latino mestizo, maybe MENA.
                    It doesn't really matter. All it matters is that is perceived as racially different to the white English people around him
                    Definitely not someone who looks like a Laurence Olivier or Timothy Dalton; Tom Hardy or Ralph Fiennes with a tan.

                    So, sure, he can be (part) black - why not? But I find it funny that the media seem to think a person can either be white, or black, and other racial groups don't exist. Andrea Arnold cast him as a black guy (and then changed the Gypsy racial slur to the N-word). Which is way better and more faithful to the novel than whitewashing him, as people constantly do. Because racist abuse during his childhood and adolescence is an important part of his story. It still kind of makes me scratch my head and wonder why she changed that, when she could have just cast a brown guy and have the same comments and slurs as in the book. It's not like black people are the only group that suffers from racism. It just seemed like an unnecessary change, which prompted a bunch of stupid media articles with titles like"Heatchliff gets a race lift" (as if he didn't all those times he was whitewashed).

                    If I were to be cynical, I'd speculate that people whitewash Heathcliff because he is the main character and has the main love story, and is a very physically and mentally powerful figure - so he must be white, right? But if he's not white, then he must be black, because he is a tall, physically strong and an angry and really scary guy. He doesn't fit the racial stereotypes of other groups that he's more likely to be based on his descriptions.
                    Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 09-01-20, 12:49 AM.
                    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
                      I read that the film was supposed to be much longer but was cut because they ran out of editing time. Rose lost a lot of scenes because of that. Everyone's calling for a 3 hour director's cut to be released. I was going to add a link but there are too many to choose from.
                      I'm afraid even a 4 hour cut can't save this movie. The plot totally demolishes the previous two movies and it's pure fanservice, trying to please every fandom and because of that, it pleases no one.
                      This must be the most disappointing movie in 2019 for me.

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                      • Being a prolific multishipper makes picking just 5 an entertaining challenge for me, so here goes:

                        1. Spike/Drusilla (BtVS). I like both Spike and Dru with other people as well, but I love what they have together. So much perversion, so much acceptance, so much mutual support for one another's murderous ambitions.

                        2. Paris/Torres (Star Trek: Voyager). My very first ship, which I boarded the summer I turned 10. I felt angry and dirty and just plain wrong a lot of the time, but, if (half-) human disaster B'Elanna Torres could be loved for herself, so could I.

                        3. Braca/Scorpius/Sikozu (Farscape). This one's pretty tragic, at least the Scorpy/Sikozu half, but the tragedy's earned through stakes both galactic and intimate. Plus, there's the scheming, the is-this-still-"sub"-text, and Braca's many hilarious expressions of shock.

                        4. Vanessa/Dorian (Penny Dreadful). Just the scene where they talk about their impressions of flowers is hotter than most couples' sex scenes. And, when they do get around to actual sex, it is not a letdown. Their breakup episode aired in 2015, and my feels are still sore.

                        5. (Z/X)ev/Kai (LEXX). Most of the time, slow-burn ships make me want to tell the characters to either get it on or get over it. LEXX, however, is a trippy, nihilistic biopunk tragicomedy, which allows it to invent convincing, if bizarre, reasons for the abundance of sexual frustration. That's probably as much as I can explain its appeal-- se above re: The trippiness.

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                        • I'd forgotten how much I like Patrick Jane and Lisbon. Easy to watch, lots of chemistry. But they're no Buffy and Spike, but who is?


                          I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

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                          • All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



                            * Well, I have a new Number 1: Otis Milburn and Maeve Wiley of Sex Education. The story is SO WELL DONE and so well-acted.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cIdauxVsHE

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1tLoGfEmqI

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDGwgrF8o_g

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvFKWcQoUk8



                            1) Otis Milburn/Maeve Wiley of Sex Education


                            2) William Pratt aka William the Bloody aka Spike/Drusilla Keeble of the Buffyverse


                            3) William Pratt aka William the Bloody aka Spike/Buffy Anne Summers


                            4) Dan Humphrey and Serena Van Der Wooden of Gossip Girl


                            5) Queen Victoria/Prince Albert of Victoria

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                            • I actually really loveOtis and Maeve in Sex Education, and so the ending of season two left me very perturbed. Nope, not sharing that!! You must watch for yourself. I also am fond of a certain parental pairing... Jean and Jakob. Truly love his boundaries (and that he knows his limits). Boundaries are seriously underrated. Jean is very smart, but Jakob is wise. He's good for her... hope she figures out how to fix the mess she made!

                              On a non pairing related aside! I love 'it's just a stupid bus' Female solidarity for the win!

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