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Should Whedon have made different career choices after Angel ended?

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  • Should Whedon have made different career choices after Angel ended?

    This will be a terribly unpopular opinion because we're all encouraged to reach for the brass ring of highest salary and greatest popularity possible, but I think Whedon made a terrible mistake when he signed on to the Marvel Universe as one of their primary artists.
    (ducking beneath my chair)

    Yes, I know it gave him a much higher profile to do things and Whedon made a few original indie films with the proceeds from Avengers but if he'd also concentrated on making the Buffy and Firefly comics as spectacular as the television shows (by writing them all himself rather than farming them out to others), pitched a few more shows or even written a few novels or the Broadway musical he'd been talking about for years, he'd be in a better place artistically. He should have gone right back to original work on television during the "New" Golden Age of Television works like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Mr. Robot instead of directing and rewriting/ghosting Marvel and DC superhero movie after superhero movie not to mention Marvel shows like Agents of Shield that gave his family members a job. By the time he got back to original work with The Nevers, it was too late. The conglomerate that was financing his television show was also tied to his past work on Justice League - and once things got too hot, he was dumped.

    Yeah, I know it's hard to push away pots of money and prestige in Hollywood, but look at where he is now. One could speculate that the same kind of driven ego that caused his marriage to implode through multiple affairs and cast members/crew to complain about their treatment is the same kind of ego that would lead him to sign his talent away to be a rather small cog in some pretty enormous machines - I've seen that happen before. When the inevitable pushback happened - justified or not - it was easy for the machine to crush him and throw him in the trash.

    So where does he go now? Would he even be allowed to work on the new reboot of Buffy when it happens? (And yes, from everything I've heard, it is absolutely happening in the next few years - and as I said, it will be targeted to tweens and teens like the new Firefly.) He doesn't have much to call his own. Almost all of Whedon's work is owned by someone else - even Buffy. At this point, Whedon has zero control over the vast majority of his projects despite Mutant Enemy Productions. Ugh. If he were smart, he'd write a couple of plays or musicals for the stage pronto - get his name out there in a different context as fast as he can.

    If anything, I've learned two things so far in this industry - in the long run, it's better and healthier to be a large cog in a smaller machine than the opposite - and never, ever give away your copyright. Even if you're offered more money than you can possibly imagine. You or your family will live to regret it.
    Last edited by American Aurora; 02-01-21, 09:17 PM.

  • #2
    Post Angel, he did what? He tried to get Angel movies made, but it didn't work out. Dr Horrible. He wrote a couple movies that didn't get made. Then he did the comics before he and Eliza came up with Dollhouse, which wasn't very well received. I don't think he had all that much in the way of options and probably felt pretty lucky Marvel gave him a shot.

    I think the problem with Joss is ultimately he *isn't* in the league of the David Chases or Vince Gilligans as far as critical acclaim goes and he's not a money making machine, either. He's sort of Cris Carter tier with 1.5 great shows under his belt. Top it all off, he seems to have a pyromania problem, frequently burning bridges with studios. He's badmouthed virtually everyone he's worked with.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
      Post Angel, he did what? He tried to get Angel movies made, but it didn't work out. Dr Horrible. He wrote a couple movies that didn't get made. Then he did the comics before he and Eliza came up with Dollhouse, which wasn't very well received. I don't think he had all that much in the way of options and probably felt pretty lucky Marvel gave him a shot.

      I think the problem with Joss is ultimately he *isn't* in the league of the David Chases or Vince Gilligans as far as critical acclaim goes and he's not a money making machine, either. He's sort of Cris Carter tier with 1.5 great shows under his belt. Top it all off, he seems to have a pyromania problem, frequently burning bridges with studios. He's badmouthed virtually everyone he's worked with.
      Great points - if you assume that the only way forward was through film and television. If he had set his sights a little lower in terms of money or fame, he could easily have worked on Broadway and won awards/made potential millions, plus retained his copyright on his work. Having worked there during the last years of Buffy and Angel, I think he would have been welcomed with open arms and enough cash. I mean, we're talking a few million for a Broadway play as opposed to the massive amounts needed just to make a low budget indie film. But any play could be reworked into a script later. That's the route Sorkin took - I'm not a fan of his work, but it worked for him. He's still writing plays at this moment and had a big hit recently.

      The way copyright works in the US is that a writer doesn't own their work in the movie and television industry because of laws passed during the old studio system that categorized writers as 'employees' of studios. Whereas a writer has complete control over their work when writing a novel or stage piece because they are designated as independent contractors. Even today, if you write a movie script, you don't retain copyright. However, if the studio decides to create a play or musical based on the work, the WRITER retains the copyright to that work. Alan Menken sued when Disney claimed copyright to the stage version of his musical Beauty and the Beast since they had produced the animated film. The Supreme Court ruled in Menken's favor, defeating Disney. So writers are eager to see their screenplays done as plays/musicals now.

      Whedon could have written a play or novel and then 'rented' it to producers in film or television, while still retaining final copyright in the end. He's not J.K.Rowling, but Whedon's big enough to demand a lot of control over a work in which he retains solid copyright.

      Whedon didn't own Buffy or Angel or Firefly - his options were limited because the rights were valuable and dependent on things out of his control. The attempt to do an online piece was interesting, but kinda pointless because the internet wasn't quite the behemoth it is now. If he had put movie scripts aside and tried writing something in a completely different medium, he might be looking at some rather prestigious awards on his shelf right now. He'd have been better off writing The Nevers as a novel - he'd have far more leverage.

      If I were advising Whedon now, I'd say that he should consider a novel or a play or collaboration with a songwriting team on a musical and try to win a Tony, an Olivier, or something similar to start building up a new kind of reputation outside of Hollywood and pop culture.
      Last edited by American Aurora; 02-01-21, 10:59 PM.

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      • #4
        I believe I remember Joss actually being asked about writing a novel continuation of the show(s). He more or less said long form isn't his thing. From his work, I think it's probably true. About everything he's done is very snappy and quick-paced, which doesn't always translate well to novels. Plus, and this might cross boundaries on why he likes filmed mediums so much, I think much of his ideas and writing come from actors playing the characters.

        We can only guess as to why he doesn't do X or Y. He may like musicals, but maybe isn't the biggest fan of writing them. He did OMWF and Dr Horrible. Maybe he found them too much. Maybe it's just something he dipped his toe in but isn't interested in it being his main line. Maybe LA and film is all he really knows and it's what he likes. It's in his family.

        I don't think money is his driving factor. He may not own the copyrights to Buffy or Angel but he made enough from them that neither he or his kids or grandkids will ever have to work. Perhaps that's even part of his problem, so to speak. He isn't a hungry artist anymore. As an aside, I have little issue with the way screenwriting works in TV/Film for the most part. Unlike other mediums, the script isn't the final product any more than, say, Giger's Xenomorph design is.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
          I believe I remember Joss actually being asked about writing a novel continuation of the show(s). He more or less said long form isn't his thing. From his work, I think it's probably true. About everything he's done is very snappy and quick-paced, which doesn't always translate well to novels. Plus, and this might cross boundaries on why he likes filmed mediums so much, I think much of his ideas and writing come from actors playing the characters.

          We can only guess as to why he doesn't do X or Y. He may like musicals, but maybe isn't the biggest fan of writing them. He did OMWF and Dr Horrible. Maybe he found them too much. Maybe it's just something he dipped his toe in but isn't interested in it being his main line. Maybe LA and film is all he really knows and it's what he likes. It's in his family.
          Well, since his dad wrote off-Broadway musicals and he grew up in Manhattan going to the theater every night, I imagine that theater shadows his work a bit. But it could be that he's intimidated since he talks of the theater as some kind of high-minded artistic form as opposed to film and television. Maybe he feels he's just not good enough - or literary enough. He talked forever about working on a Broadway musical, but then stopped a few years ago.

          But there's nothing stopping him from writing a play, which often contains the same snappy, quick-paced dialogue as a screenplay. In a workshop, he can also revise based on the work of the actors, so there's not much difference except in perception. But unless it's a musical, it does pay substantially less. And for some people, that's not worth the prestige and independence that's gained by working in theater.

          I don't think money is his driving factor. He may not own the copyrights to Buffy or Angel but he made enough from them that neither he or his kids or grandkids will ever have to work.
          Not sure about that - I don't know when residual money runs out, but it is scaled down over time. In twenty years, Whedon's checks for Buffy will substantially diminish as per most residual contracts. Whereas royalty checks associated with copyright are consistent and can even grow with time.

          Perhaps that's even part of his problem, so to speak. He isn't a hungry artist anymore. As an aside, I have little issue with the way screenwriting works in TV/Film for the most part. Unlike other mediums, the script isn't the final product any more than, say, Giger's Xenomorph design is.
          Well, Disney sure had an issue! They were furious when they found out they didn't necessarily own the stage rights to any of their musical movies!
          Last edited by American Aurora; 02-01-21, 11:01 PM.

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          • #6
            If I am honest I don't know the answer to that question.

            I haven't seen Firefly and Serenity yet. I often hear people say the show and movie are artistically in a league with Buffy and Angel although they were not as successful as JW's previous two shows were. Let's assume both Firefly and Serenity were not quite bad. It would still seem they were artistically the last good stuff with his name on it.

            I tend to believe that JW's career after Buffy and Angel (and maybe Firefly and Serenity) suffered from a creative burn out on his part. Why would it be so surprising that someone who created a whole universe from his sheer imagination cannot repeat that miracle again and again? Joanne K. Rowling published several novels outside the Potter Universe and after she had finished the seven original books but her other works have never been a similar success nor are they regarded anywhere as significant as the Harry Potter books were and still are. I admit I haven't read The Ickabog yet and therefore have to reserve final judgment. I might change my opinion on J.K. Rowling after reading her latest book. It might be another masterpiece.

            However, I still think it's more plausible than not that Whedon's creativity burnt out long before he signed on to the Marvel Universe. Maybe has been running on empty batteries for two decades and now has finally reached a point where he is completely burnt out. Physically, emotionally and mentally. He probably would not have ended up where he is right now if he would have decided to become a yoga instructor somewhere around 2010.

            I have no idea how much money Buffy and Angel had earned him and if he would have been able to live a comfy and wealthy life in L.A. from those earnings alone. But people who have earned one million usually want two million next. And so on. He was in his late forties when he signed on for Marvel. He had achieved a lot but there were always people who had achieved more than he had. George Lucas was already in his fifties when he started working on Episode I. Why shouldn't Whedon be able to pull off a success like that or at least a success like Buffy again? In the end, he wasn't able to pull it off (yet) bit was there a way for him to realize and admit it?

            Maybe he didn't have enough creative potential left in him to write a novel, a play, another show, or a musical even back then. It remains to be seen how much he has actually written for The Nevers and if it is any good.

            I agree it's better to be a large cog in a small machine but I do believe he aspired to be a large cog in a large machine. It didn't work out for him. To re-use the Star Wars analogy - did Mark Hamill become a Broadway actor (and a voice actor) because he couldn't get any roles in big movies after The Return of the Jedi or was he smart enough to find a machine that was big enough to pay for his living and still small enough so he could be a large cog within (although watching how his pal Han Solo thrived must still have stung)?

            I doubt JW has it in him at the moment to put out a play or a musical for the stage. Maybe his downfall will rekindle his muse. I do hope he has the strength and inner balance to get through this rather difficult patch in his life, no matter if he has brought it upon himself or not.

            flow



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            • BtVS fan
              BtVS fan commented
              Editing a comment
              You've not seen either Ats or Firefly. Is there any specific reason or are they just not your cup of tea ?

          • #7
            Originally posted by flow View Post
            If I am honest I don't know the answer to that question.

            I haven't seen Firefly and Serenity yet. I often hear people say the show and movie are artistically in a league with Buffy and Angel although they were not as successful as JW's previous two shows were. Let's assume both Firefly and Serenity were not quite bad. It would still seem they were artistically the last good stuff with his name on it.
            Some people think Dollhouse was interesting, but I found it problematic. One could ask if Whedon is capable of writing something on his own, without a partner to look over his shoulder. There are many writers like that who need another pair of eyes and ears to complete a work. I don't know how much influence Greenwalt or Minear had, but from what I understand, they were responsible for a lot of the development of Angel/Spike.

            I tend to believe that JW's career after Buffy and Angel (and maybe Firefly and Serenity) suffered from a creative burn out on his part. Why would it be so surprising that someone who created a whole universe from his sheer imagination cannot repeat that miracle again and again? Joanne K. Rowling published several novels outside the Potter Universe and after she had finished the seven original books but her other works have never been a similar success nor are they regarded anywhere as significant as the Harry Potter books were and still are. I admit I haven't read The Ickabog yet and therefore have to reserve final judgment. I might change my opinion on J.K. Rowling after reading her latest book. It might be another masterpiece.
            I find it fascinating that Rowling decided to pursue adult fiction, but stick primarily to genres like mystery novels. Isn't the Ickabog a one-off for children because of COVID?

            However, I still think it's more plausible than not that Whedon's creativity burnt out long before he signed on to the Marvel Universe. Maybe has been running on empty batteries for two decades and now has finally reached a point where he is completely burnt out. Physically, emotionally and mentally. He probably would not have ended up where he is right now if he would have decided to become a yoga instructor somewhere around 2010.

            I have no idea how much money Buffy and Angel had earned him and if he would have been able to live a comfy and wealthy life in L.A. from those earnings alone. But people who have earned one million usually want two million next. And so on. He was in his late forties when he signed on for Marvel. He had achieved a lot but there were always people who had achieved more than he had. George Lucas was already in his fifties when he started working on Episode I. Why shouldn't Whedon be able to pull off a success like that or at least a success like Buffy again? In the end, he wasn't able to pull it off (yet) bit was there a way for him to realize and admit it?
            Well, Lucas had a very unusual deal in terms of Star Wars that was atypical for Hollywood. He was a very successful independent producer-director who refused to work with studios and retained exclusive rights in his initial distribution deal with Fox because he produced Star Wars himself. Imagine if he had sold it to them outright. Fox exes thought they had made a savvy deal. They were so screwed.

            When Lucas made Episode 1, he was the longstanding rights holder of that franchise. No one could really cross him. Which is why Phantom Menace is so bad.

            By the time Whedon started, though, that ship had sailed. No studio worth their salt would allow anyone to get exclusive rights over a potentially lucrative franchise after that debacle. Agreed that Whedon was probably reaching for the stars - but he should have realized that a director really doesn't have that much power. What Hollywood builds up can easily be demolished the next day.

            Maybe he didn't have enough creative potential left in him to write a novel, a play, another show, or a musical even back then. It remains to be seen how much he has actually written for The Nevers and if it is any good.
            I'll be very curious to see if there's any sign of the creator of Buffy in it.

            I agree it's better to be a large cog in a small machine but I do believe he aspired to be a large cog in a large machine. It didn't work out for him. To re-use the Star Wars analogy - did Mark Hamill become a Broadway actor (and a voice actor) because he couldn't get any roles in big movies after The Return of the Jedi or was he smart enough to find a machine that was big enough to pay for his living and still small enough so he could be a large cog within (although watching how his pal Han Solo thrived must still have stung)?
            Oh, yes, there's no doubt that Hamill had to reboot his career completely when Hollywood didn't pan out. In the end, though, Hamill might be remembered as much as Harrison for his voice work in the Batman series and his boisterous social media personality which ranges from twitter likes to commercials for take-out with Sir Patrick Stewart.

            I doubt JW has it in him at the moment to put out a play or a musical for the stage. Maybe his downfall will rekindle his muse. I do hope he has the strength and inner balance to get through this rather difficult patch in his life, no matter if he has brought it upon himself or not.
            He's not too old yet. If he takes a completely different path, he might be able to circumvent barriers that he's created due to his own foolish choices. I think of what F. Scott Fitzgerald said in The Last Tycoon: "I once thought that there were no second acts in American lives, but there was certainly to be a second act to New York's boom days." The power of reinvention is vast - ask any politician.

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            • #8
              I'm probably a heathen for saying this, but I don't think he is good enough to stand out in the current world of tv. He has a knack for creative ideas and an amusing signature style, which brought him quite far. But there are too many archetyes he can't write well, a lot of his projects have an early expiration date, he doesn't really seem to grow as a creator, too many actors he worked with were unhappy about his treatment of them and too often his creative ideas fall flat due to a mediocore execution.


              So if I'm honest, I think he did quite well for himself. He made an amusing popcorn movie (first proper crossover movie in the comic genre!), worked with famous actors and he reached a gigantic audience (who loved it). And all that after his (television) career fizzled out after Firefly.

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              • #9
                My feeling is that while there are indeed a lot of great TV shows out there, there's also a lot of crap. And Whedon at a low point is still more talented than most people in the industry. I think that's true of the theatre and novels too. Sure, he might fail. But he might not.

                And going with the Star Wars examples, Carrie Fisher transitioned into novels that got optioned into films. She made a decent name for herself as a writer beyond her iconic status as Leia.

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                • #10
                  All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                  What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.




                  AtS = Angel .





                  * Joss Whedon didn't know cancel culture would exist, that he'd be particularly effected and affected by it, and that he'd be the 'fall guy' for both Avengers 2 and Justice League.

                  He didn't know that nerds and geeks and such would become so entitled and irksome.

                  Joss Whedon is a writer who creates and writes ensemble casts.

                  Buffy the Vampire Slayer will always be beloved by the media and critics.

                  Firefly and Serenity will always be beloved by the fans.

                  Joss Whedon effectively single-handedly is responsible for the success of the Writers Strike.

                  Joss Whedon arguably effectively single-handedly saved the movie industry.


                  The problem is nerds and geeks became too invested in comic book movies and too invested in having more comic book movies. Kevin Fiege somehow became a god even though only Iron Man and The Avengers are actually good movies in the MCU. Nerds and geeks want 'the Synder Cut' to be better than 'the Joss Whedon version'.

                  Wonder Woman wasn't better than the DC Animated Wonder Woman.

                  Black Panther is vastly overrated. Yes, it's a decent movie--but only because of it cultural impact. Hidden Figures is essentially infinitely better.



                  * The problem is movie writers don't make relatively much money. The directors make the money. Joss is a writer-director who's mostly an excellent writer who wants full control over the writing. But he's not Quentin Tarantino or James Cameron.



                  * History will remember Joss Whedon as the guy who changed TV forever and who changed the movie industry. Joss has made $10s of MMs since AtS S5.

                  I'm not sure how he's made bad career choices since AtS S5 given he's arguably been more successful than all the other Buffyverse people combined.

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                  • #11
                    I was reading Buffy/Angel episode reviews from a site called snarksquad and they really hated Spike and the attempted rape scene in the Buffy episode Seeing Red, and it hit me that some of the things that happened on Buffy/Angel would never be allowed on tv nowadays.

                    My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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                    • Double Dutchess
                      Double Dutchess commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ah -- until now I had successfully repressed the memory of those reviews. I think they were nasty.

                    • Lostsoul666
                      Lostsoul666 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I'm not a fan of their reviews myself.

                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
                    I was reading Buffy/Angel episode reviews from a site called snarksquad and they really hated Spike and the attempted rape scene in the Buffy episode Seeing Red, and it hit me that some of the things that happened on Buffy/Angel would never be allowed on tv nowadays.
                    Yes, it's very traumatizing and might be avoided today. Or it's possible that the events would be dramatized differently to emphasize the brutality depending on the audience.

                    I can see the AR still happening, but it most likely would have been much worse because Spike would most likely have been depicted in a far more brutal way as a soulless vamp. Same with Angelus, Darla and Dru. There was only so much you could show back then - before Game of Thrones. Now we'd probably get a bird's eye view of the infamous wedding where Angelus impresses newly sired William the Bloody by ripping the limbs off of a priest to beat the groom to death before raping the bride.
                    Last edited by American Aurora; 03-01-21, 04:40 AM.

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                    • BtVS fan
                      BtVS fan commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Yes and no. BtvS was still a Teen show after all there's only so much they can and can't do. Even Ats which was meant to be the Adult show had to cancel the Corrupt script which was seen as to dark.

                  • #13
                    Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
                    I was reading Buffy/Angel episode reviews from a site called snarksquad and they really hated Spike and the attempted rape scene in the Buffy episode Seeing Red, and it hit me that some of the things that happened on Buffy/Angel would never be allowed on tv nowadays.
                    I don't think it's really a matter of "can't do it anymore" and more a case of "you can't do it anymore without a proper aftermath for the victim". You can still show an AR, but people expect more concequences. The AR was used as a kick-off for Spike's new journey while Buffy (the main character and victim of the AR) never dealed with it.

                    Now is the AR probably the only time rape was taken serious at all in the Buffyverse, which is already a step forward from all the times characters were having sex without their consent and it was played for laughs. I doubt you can still get away with that.

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                    • Stoney
                      Stoney commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I see follow up for Buffy that would be relatable for some victims, but it's understated. Combined with the verse soul separation & Spike's ongoing arc being a major part of S7 I understand why some feel it's imbalanced.

                  • #14
                    Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                    Post Angel, he did what? He tried to get Angel movies made, but it didn't work out. Dr Horrible. He wrote a couple movies that didn't get made. Then he did the comics before he and Eliza came up with Dollhouse, which wasn't very well received. I don't think he had all that much in the way of options and probably felt pretty lucky Marvel gave him a shot.

                    I think the problem with Joss is ultimately he *isn't* in the league of the David Chases or Vince Gilligans as far as critical acclaim goes and he's not a money making machine, either. He's sort of Cris Carter tier with 1.5 great shows under his belt. Top it all off, he seems to have a pyromania problem, frequently burning bridges with studios. He's badmouthed virtually everyone he's worked with.

                    Well it seemed like Joss cooled down on the TV movies more than anything. First he palmed off the Spike movie to Tim Minear (obvious sign right there) then it was going to be a Spike/Willow and Illyria movie. When James Marsters was asked about it at the time. He admitted he heard more from fans telling him stuff about what Joss said in interviews than from Joss himself.

                    I do know the BBC was all set for the Ripper show (they even said this) and ASH was eager but again it was Joss himself who cooled on it.

                    The Comics Buffy series again it was Joss who got bored with them mid S9 and only came back for S12 Plus as he admitted he had trouble remembering stuff (ie Warren being dead)

                    Point is Joss has a lot of early enthusiasm for projects but which tales off very soon if he gets bored or moves onto the next project. Hell he was clearly bored with Buffy by S6 and had moved on to Firefly by that stage anyway. You could see that with him just doing the gimmick episodes. In OMWF the songs in that are as much about him wanting to move on as much as anything.
                    Joss has also said he originally only had a 5 year arc for Buffy though I'm guessing the money UPN offered was to much to turn down.

                    For Ats by his own admission Angel he felt hard to write as he was the guy who beat him up at school. Much of the shows success could be attributed to Tim Minear imo. The original idea of a Monster/victim of the Week would've flat lined very quickly. It was Minear who made it about Angel and his journey.
                    There was an interview with either Goddard or Deknight (can't remember which) talking about the episode Why We Fight and how Joss had watched U571 (awful movie) and came in 1 day and said let's have Angel and Spike on a Nazi submarine and that was it and Goddard and Deknight had just a week to write that episode.

                    I also think it's a different time now as well. Back in the 90's Whedon was famed for his dialogue. It got him an Oscar for Toy Story after all but now it's kind of dated and the Whedon quips is something of a cliché among fans
                    Last edited by BtVS fan; 03-01-21, 09:54 AM.

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                    • Stoney
                      Stoney commented
                      Editing a comment
                      But Joss was involved in plotting all the comic seasons, he didn't go and then return. Sure he didn't write issues in 10 & 11, but he was involved in decided the seasons' directions and changes had to be run by him.

                    • American Aurora
                      American Aurora commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I think Stoney’s correct. Whedon was involved in the plotting of every season. I just don’t understand why he didn’t take more care with them.

                  • #15
                    You've not seen either Ats or Firefly. Is there any specific reason or are they just not your cup of tea ?
                    I guess I am not really watching that many series anyway. When I think back to the series I have watched completely (meaning all seasons) in the last ten years or so I can - aside from BtVS - only name Dr. House, Downton Abbey, Carnival Row, Sherlock, Lucifer, and Good Omens. I have never watched GoT, Supernatural, Lost, The Big Bang Theory, or any of the other shows that have been a huge success over the last decade. I have watched one season of Dr. Who (it was the last season for the tenth Doctor). I liked it but not enough to watch another season. I am contemplating watching Torchwood next but I am not sure if and when that will happen.

                    I liked Angel season 1 but I wasn't drawn into it enough to be glued to my tv. Maybe, if times would have been different I would have continued watching it anyway. But I had a lot of stuff going on and wasn't in the right frame of mind. I might pick up watching it in the future. It's not that I disliked it. I just wasn't enthusiastic about it. I have never ever heard of Firefly before I watched BtVS (and that's still only been four years). I don't even know if it is on German tv. I know of no one who has ever heard of it, let alone watched it. I'll put it on my watchlist.

                    I would love to find another tv show to fall in love with. If anyone wants to recommend a show, please go ahead.

                    flow

                    ETA: Coming to think about it I don’t think any tv show can be as entertaining as US politics...
                    Last edited by flow; 03-01-21, 09:01 PM.

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                    • American Aurora
                      American Aurora commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Yes, the Trump show is surely the greatest reality show of all time.

                  • #16
                    Originally posted by Nina View Post
                    I'm probably a heathen for saying this, but I don't think he is good enough to stand out in the current world of tv. He has a knack for creative ideas and an amusing signature style, which brought him quite far. But there are too many archetyes he can't write well, a lot of his projects have an early expiration date, he doesn't really seem to grow as a creator, too many actors he worked with were unhappy about his treatment of them and too often his creative ideas fall flat due to a mediocore execution.


                    So if I'm honest, I think he did quite well for himself. He made an amusing popcorn movie (first proper crossover movie in the comic genre!), worked with famous actors and he reached a gigantic audience (who loved it). And all that after his (television) career fizzled out after Firefly.
                    Joss tends to write the same thing over and over. The found family/circle of friends dynamic. It's probably why Marvel picked him for the big team-up. Outside of that, I don't think he's a strong storywriter. A big problem is he's just not a great plotter or world-builder. He can write dialogue and moving scenes, but he really struggles to string them all together. Emotional resonance and rocket launchers can only carry a story so far.

                    Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
                    I was reading Buffy/Angel episode reviews from a site called snarksquad and they really hated Spike and the attempted rape scene in the Buffy episode Seeing Red, and it hit me that some of the things that happened on Buffy/Angel would never be allowed on tv nowadays.
                    Oh, it absolutely could. Way too much stock is put into online outrage over things. For all the talk about what could or couldn't air today, all those problematic shows are some of the most popular on streaming services. The most popular show of the last 10 was rife with rape and misogyny. Sure, people would complain and make up reasons but they did that then, too. Much of it was fake, though, only window dressing because they disliked Spike or that Spike did it. It's never really about making Buffy a victim. The same people will tell you how much they love Helpless and Who Are You.

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                    • #17
                      Originally posted by American Aurora View Post





                      Well, Lucas had a very unusual deal in terms of Star Wars that was atypical for Hollywood. He was a very successful independent producer-director who refused to work with studios and retained exclusive rights in his initial distribution deal with Fox because he produced Star Wars himself. Imagine if he had sold it to them outright. Fox exes thought they had made a savvy deal. They were so screwed.
                      Yep, Lucas made the 2nd most lucrative deal of history (1st was Indiana Jones): Fox paid him to direct and write Star Wars, plus 40% of net profits, but they also gave him the sequel rights (in 1973!!). And yep: he did V and VI with his own money (due to credit bank and I-II-III without credit...) and kept merchandising rights. He made around *only* 3000* million because he kept his companies (ILM, Skywalker Sound, Lucas Animation etc) well-financed.

                      *Disney paid him 4000 million, 2000 in cash and 2000 in 40 million Disney shares.

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                      • #18
                        Joss had the Hollywood window opened several times. In 2001 he agreed to write and direct the Iron Man film (first meeting: 9/11... It didn't happen, of course) but he said no due to, of course, his TV shows. With Batman (autumn 2001) he wanted it because, c'mon, it's Batman (he wrote an outline while running 3 shows).

                        I guess his best window was around 2015 (even more than around 2005-06 when he had Serenity, Wonder Woman and Goners) but he was apparently so burned out and the triple 2017 punch (WW 2007 script, Kai's letter and Justice League) closed the window. He returned to TV with 3 shows (Pippa, Nevers and Buffy reboot) and at least we'll have a new Whedon show in summer 2021.

                        I can say he is apparently happy with his partner.

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                        • flow
                          flow commented
                          Editing a comment
                          To be quite frank - that's worth more than being on top in Hollywood. Not that you can't be on top in the industry AND be happy with your partner but it is very rare.

                      • #19
                        Whedon has used the "burned out, creatively exhausted" explanation more then once. It could absolutely be legitimate, especially after going through both the Marvel and DC machines. Even 1 would be an almost unfathomable amount of pressure for anyone, let alone both. That said, he has clearly fallen into a storytelling pattern of found family and such as was said, not to mention burned some bridges. He seemed.happier with his low budget Much Ado About Nothing partially in his home, with actors he clearly enjoys working repeatedly with and vice versa.

                        I have no insider knowledge, but I'd be a bit surprised if they let him onto a Buffy reboot. At best he'll provide a carefully worded statement of neutral support, if not exactly a blessing. If he goes to ground for a bit and does a couple small things without major controversy, maybe they'll invite him to set once as a PR stunt/placation of old fans who are automatically going to be against this. (I doubt the makers of new Buffy want an incident like Old Charmed cast vs New Charmed cast that happened a little while ago). If not Whedon, I could see them trying to do the same with Sarah, Alyson, David, James or even Eliza for a similar effect.

                        American Aurora Have you heard anything about a Lost reboot? ABC execs and such occasionally comment on the possibility. Given how television has changed I can think of several differences/challenges from just a storytelling standpoint already with that.
                        Last edited by DanSlayer; 04-01-21, 04:11 AM.

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