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  • Silver1
    replied
    Yep, I think for him It's a combination of a faulty memory and reading too much into the wrong thing. He was like that around about when the series aired, let along 20 years or so down the line.

    Leave a comment:


  • BtVS fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
    LOL. This is why actors shouldn't be taken that much notice of when it comes to show. Writers yes, actors, err, not so much imo.
    Its why just simply hearing from James Masters when it comes to Spike is very frustrating. He tends to drown out what the writers say

    Leave a comment:


  • Silver1
    replied
    LOL. This is why actors shouldn't be taken that much notice of when it comes to show. Writers yes, actors, err, not so much imo.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    If Glory was able to jump out of people like that the monks would have failed to 'trap' her well as her followers could always have just killed who she was in and controlled who she went into. Perhaps it's worth debating in its own thread??

  • flow
    replied
    Cameo is a platform where you can buy video messages by artists. I am not sure how I feel about the concept.

    However, Clare Kramer has delivered a message and she talks about what happened to Glory after Giles killed Ben. Her hypothesis - and it's actually one I have never heard before - is that Glory left Ben's body just in time and now inhabitates Giles.

    Cameo - Personalized videos feat. your favorite stars

    flow

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    A bit random, I wonder if Charisma's having a rewatch.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    Just finished listening to ASH's time capsule, adored his enthusiasm for Christmas.

  • Stoney
    replied
    This is interesting from ASH. I followed some of the links and the time capsule podcasts sound fun and he's had an array of very interesting guests. I'll definitely give one or two a listen...


    https://linktr.ee/mytcpod

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    I don't believe it did contradict previous canon but worked very well in the continuation of character arcs from the show. And it all happened with Joss' involvement in plotting, even if involvement varied that's still true.To debate elsewhere.

  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    Spike also talked about himself as a victim in AtS 5 so I don't think we can be sure how he'd feel about Dru now. Although I do think he'd still hold strong feelings for her, even if they're mixed. Again a topic for another thread perhaps.

  • MikeB
    replied
    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

    What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.





    @Stoney



    * You seem to not fully consider that Spike is immortal and that Joss Whedon largely considers Spike will be alive in the time of flying cars. Joss seriously floated the idea of having Spike in Firefly. And Spike in After the Fall is
    Spoiler:
    alive in the time of flying cars.


    Buffy is the only serious relationship Spike has been in post-1880 C.E. who isn't an immortal.

    Drusilla Keeble

    Harmony Kendall

    Buffybot (if you want to consider that a relationship)

    Buffy Anne Summers

    Illyria (if canon)

    Beck (if canon)

    Maria Harley aka Spider (if canon)

    Morgan (if you want to count that)


    Season 10-12 doesn't put Buffy/Spike above Spike/Drusilla because Drusilla is still alive, Spike still loves Dru, and Spike is still at least somewhat sexually attracted to Dru. And Buffy/Spike
    Spoiler:
    break up by the end of Season 12.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    commented on 's reply
    I don't know. There really isn't a debate regarding Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike. The answer is Buffy/Spike and it's actually not debatable unless post "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22) is completely ignored.

  • MikeB
    commented on 's reply
    I made a thread on the reasons Season 10 cannot be canon. Season 11 is even worse in terms of canon. The Gageverse cannot change the canon of the TV Buffyverse and Season 8 and Season 9.

  • Stoney
    replied
    There are a lot of wider topics being raised now than discussing the Stacey Abrams tweet and subsequent actor tweets. I think we need to consider separate threads if these debates are going to continue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    commented on 's reply
    The only ways I've heard the later canon comic seasons supposedly contradict earlier seasons has been against your interpretation of them. I think the through lines work well, but this is a separate thread topic if you want to debate it.

  • Stoney
    replied
    They do move forward from where they were in S6 and even at the start of S7 by the end. Everything doesn't have to be achieved in an instant, or only the result of being part of a relationship mean they had moved forwards. Spike staying away in AtS 5 doesn't undo all of that, it just means he is struggling with other things and needs to focus on other priorities. That doesn't have to be consciously determined, but him staying away is the outward evidence of it. And sure, by S12 they have broken up, but that is after getting to the point of being able to have an open relationship that went on for most of two seasons. I can't see that as not having moved forwards, even if they do end up apart at the end. They are still hugging and talking of wanting to share their lives, not at all similar to where they were at the end of S6 or even by the end of S7. That's true even if they are still not currently romantically together. I don't see the need to have an all or nothing view of it. They emotionally had moved to very different places together both at the end of S7 and S12.

    Which is in great part what I took from Stacey Abrams original tweet that triggered all of these follow on actor tweets and discussion. That at different stages people need and want different things. There isn't anything to say that Buffy's next phase in life wouldn't be to turn back to either vampire relationship or to be to start dating someone totally different that she then stays in a long term relationship with, marries and has children. That wouldn't undo the significance of her previous relationships or how much those people still mean to her.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeB
    replied
    ALL CAUGHT UP (meaning the posts after #64)


    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

    What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    AtS = Angel .




    @GoSpuffy

    * Souls are a real thing in the Buffyverse. Spike and Drusilla were literal ‘demon spirit mates’ in that Spike is being literal when he in “Doomed” (B 4.11) says, “Goodbye, Dru. I’ll see you in hell.”

    Spike got his soul back because he wanted to go to heaven and ultimately wanted Buffy and he in heaven together. He wanted Buffy and he to be literal soulmates.

    And, no, soulmate in real life has always meant the literal or metaphorical ‘eternal’ love.



    @vampmogs

    * AtS S5 has Buffy never actually ‘moving on’ from Spike. Andrew Wells makes it clear in “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) that ‘Buffy’ is merely ‘having fun’ with the Immortal.

    And then we have the Season 8 and Season 9 stuff.


    * Buffy in “Chosen” (B 7.22) didn’t think Spike would ever want to be human. And she doesn’t seem to think he’d want to be with her when she’s an old woman.

    Buffy also doesn’t consider in “Chosen” that she’ll live to old age.


    * Spike in AtS S5 was concerned about the Shanshu Prophecy and the idea that Buffy might possibly prefer a human Angel over vampire Spike.

    Before learning about the Shanshu Prophecy, Spike wanted to go be with Buffy.


    _________________________________________


    * Spike is the most important being in Buffy’s life in BtVS S6. He’s her lover, best friend, mentor, confidant, etc. etc. He fills all the roles the Scoobies and her boyfriend filled in BtVS S1-S5. And Buffy after “As You Were” (B 6.15) till sometime after “Grave” (B 6.22) refers to the Buffy/Spike relationship in the present tense and even befriended Clem to get info on Spike’s possible return.


    * Spike is so important to Buffy in BtVS S7 that she puts his life and concerns above everyone else’s combined. And Buffy never apologizes for any of it. There is no “Revelations” (B 3.07) thing, “Primeval” (B 4.21) thing, etc.


    * Buffy went out on one date in BtVS S7 and that’s specifically because she considers Spike doesn’t want her anymore. It doesn’t compare to Buffy in BtVS S1-BtVS S3.


    * Spike in “Chosen” (B 7.22) and after cannot except a Buffy who has romantic feelings for anyone else. He doesn’t want her to die with him in “Chosen”. Buffy after “Chosen” never ‘moves on’ from Spike and Spike eventually decides that
    Spoiler:
    Buffy and he are literal soulmates and Buffy/Spike almost certainly get together and are literal soulmates after Season 9.



    * Literally EVERYONE in BtVS S7 knows how important Spike is to Buffy. For some of them, it’s to point that they openly complain about it to Buffy.

    Buffy cares more about Spike than she does about Xander’s gut wound (“First Date” (B 7.14)) and Dawn’s head damage (“Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17)). And Buffy doesn’t relatively mind that Spike beat on Robin Wood. Angel and Riley never got close to such regard and attention.


    * Spike is literally the most important person to Buffy in BtVS S6 and BtVS S7 except for maybe herself. Spike is essentially Buffy’s Number 2 in BtVS S7 among the Scoobies. Spike is central to Buffy in BtVS S6 and S7.


    * Shooting scripts aren’t canon. The Original draft of what became “Chosen” (B 7.22) was much more “Spuffy”. The reason it is so ambiguous in “Chosen” is because Spike was going to AtS S5 and it was assumed SMG was going to do 5 AtS S5 episodes.

    Even the end of “Chosen” with Buffy’s smile can indicate that she assumes Spike will go to heaven and that she’ll join him whenever she dies.


    _________________________________________


    * “Showtime” (B 7.11), “The Killer in Me” (B 7.13), “Get It Done “(B 7.15) and post-“Get It Done”. Spike in “Lessons” (B 7.01) was shown by Buffy that she still loves him and that she immediately wanted him back into her family. Buffy in “Chosen” (B 7.22) chooses him over Angel and both Spike and Angel know that.


    * Buffy can have fun with Spike and Spike makes her literally smile.



    @Stoney

    * Post-Season 9 cannot be canon because too much of it directly opposes previously established canon. The way Buffy/Spike is superior to Spike/Dru if is Buffy/Spike get together after Season 9 but it’s not how it’s done in Season 10, 11, and especially Season 12.

    The only way Buffy/Spike can be better than Spike/Dru is if Buffy/Spike are literal soulmates. If not, Spike has plenty of time to be back with Drusilla or be with whomever comes after Cecily Underwood, Drusilla Keeble, and Buffy Anne Summers.


    _________________________________________


    * Again, the discussion became about Spike/Dru vs. Buffy/Spike. Spike/Dru somehow continues after “Lovers Walk” (B 3.08), but a breakup happens because Spike still loves Buffy and Dru still knows that.

    “Crush” (B 5.14) has Dru’s essentially giving Spike the opportunity to either kill Buffy or sire Buffy. Dru would prefer Spike want to kill Buffy, but Dru is willing to except a Buffy/Spike/Dru thing.

    BtVS S7 is interesting partly because of the timeline and it being heavily implied that the First Evil is the reason Spike is in Sunnydale when he is. How long were Spike’s Trials? Why didn’t Spike come back to Sunnydale sooner? And it’s implied that Spike was only ‘crazy’ for those 3 weeks in the basement. What was Spike doing before that after getting his soul back?

    The distance between Buffy/Spike in BtVS S7 is because Spike wants Buffy and he to be literal soulmates and ultimately wants them in heaven together.

    It’s implied that Spike in BtVS S6 was trying to get Buffy to want to be sired by Spike so that they can have an eternal relationship. Part of Buffy’s reaction to Spike’s soul in “Beneath You” (B 7.02) is because of that.

    Spike wants a literal eternal relationship. And he seemingly wants Buffy to stay looking young forever. We never get a hint that Spike would have liked a child with Drusilla or Buffy. And Spike’s learning about Connor never prompts Spike to learn how to have a child.


    ____________________________________




    * The end of "Chosen" (B 7.22) gives the possibility of Buffy/Spike being soulmates. The end of "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22) gives the idea that Spike possibly loves his mother Anne more than he loves both Drusilla and Buffy. His poem is about his mother and he doesn't inform either Drusilla or Buffy that he might soon die.

    And, if canon, if should be noted that Maria Harley (aka Spider), Beck, and Morgan all are much more like Drusilla than they are like Buffy in terms of looks and personality.




    @BtVS fan

    * Buffy in “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20) either doesn’t know Spike is alive or she knows he’s alive and hasn’t contacted her. I don’t see how ‘hers’ dating the Immortal is somehow a huge diss to Spike. ‘She’ starts dating the Immortal around 9 months after “Chosen” (B 7.22).

    Leave a comment:


  • BtVS fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
    I just don't see it the same. I think the way that they are able to start to move forwards and are both looking to support each other and strengthen each other is such a positive step from where they were in S6 and indicative of genuine care that it taking time for them to feel comfortable with it makes sense. Anything else would have cheapened the S6 story for me and they do get to the point of being comfortable to snuggle on the couch and have an open relationship by S10/11 and I honestly think it taking that long just gives their story and journey more depth. But if you discount the canon comics and everything that came later and was worked up to, I can understand seeing it as you do for how it ended on the show. I still would lean more into viewing the positive change in tone and intent between them from S6 though.
    Yes but they don't move forward that's the point. In Angel S5 he stays away. While Buffy had moved on to the Immortal
    Now if you choose to count the comics then they are already broken up off screen by S12.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stoney
    replied
    I just don't see it the same. I think the way that they are able to start to move forwards and are both looking to support each other and strengthen each other is such a positive step from where they were in S6 and indicative of genuine care that it taking time for them to feel comfortable with it makes sense. Anything else would have cheapened the S6 story for me and they do get to the point of being comfortable to snuggle on the couch and have an open relationship by S10/11 and I honestly think it taking that long just gives their story and journey more depth. But if you discount the canon comics and everything that came later and was worked up to, I can understand seeing it as you do for how it ended on the show. I still would lean more into viewing the positive change in tone and intent between them from S6 though.

    Leave a comment:


  • vampmogs
    replied
    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
    S7 is greatly informed by their history, the uncertainty and wariness is just warranted. Any more open comfort or surety of feelings wouldn't have worked with where they had come from I don't think.
    I mean, their history is part of the problem though. If you have that much baggage that, best case scenario, you really do have feelings for one another but don't want to admit to others or even yourself then maybe it's just too unhealthy to function. Because from Buffy's POV it is really unhealthy to be that emotionally walled off to the point that even when you're being "transparent" (or what passes for transparency in their S7 interactions) you can't even make eye contact with the guy (end scene of First Date). And from Spike's POV, it would be utterly disheartening to have someone who, at best, does like you, but doesn't even want to admit it to herself let alone you because what on earth would that do for your self esteem? I'm just amazed when it's regarded as an "adult and mature relationship" when the two people can barley even look at one another when talking, let alone acknowledge their feelings to themselves or each other. It's really repressive and sad IMO.

    To me it's a given that it's only natural conclusion was for it to end because that kind of "relationship" just wouldn't be sustainable in the long run. It shouldn't be that hard. As much as I disliked TGIQ the one little sigh of relief I get from it was the idea that Buffy was with someone she felt happy to be emotionally/physically intimate and affectionate with (snuggling on the couch), who she didn't hide away from her loved ones as her repressed secret, and who she could actually have fun with and go dancing etc. I didn't love the other details about The Immortal but that at least was refreshing and healthy. The bar is quite low though 'cause, honestly, that's just basic everyday relationship stuff.

    Leave a comment:

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