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  • #31
    It is hard to see what's happening and how to stop it. This is a world wide issue that effects us all. I think this paper speaks to the true issue https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...y-vs-oligarchy . It talks about America but the fight is happening all over.


    I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Andrew S. View Post
      In general, I think the whole Democrat v. Republican debacle causes more discord than necessary and leads to people making a lot of assumptions that prevent everyone from being on the same page. That's why it's so frustrating to discuss politics with most people. If you say you’re a Democrat or a Republican, then people automatically assign whatever views and preconceived notions that they have about Democrats or Republicans onto you despite the fact that you may feel differently than another Democrat or Republican about certain things. It’s so draining and counterproductive. Same thing with religion. Like if you’re a Christian, then you must hate gays. Or if you’re an atheist, then you must be a depressed nihilist. Things just aren’t that black and white, but so many people want it to be.
      I agree that things are more nuanced and that neither Republicans or Democrats are a monolith that all think the same way. However, I am at a point, and I know this may not be the most popular or appeasing POV, where I no longer see the point of civility. Given the severity of what's happening I believe that this idea that we must remain civil or pleasant to people who, for instance, support or vote for Trump, is not only counterproductive but is also dangerous.

      I think back to when Trump said that there "were good people on both sides" during the Charlottesville race riots and how he was actually comparing one side to white nationalist nazis and trying to make some moral equivalence between the two. It was a disgusting comment that he was rightfully called out on but, to me, it's symbolic of how insidious and dangerous it is to brainwash people into believing that we must always remain civil to people regardless of their moral or political opinions, even if that includes supporting a President who is unapologetically racist and who embraces white nationalism. Those sentiments are only allowed to fester and grow because people, mainly Democrats, are conditioned into thinking that they must "respect" the other sides POV or political opinions and be polite and friendly regardless if you disagree. It's bullsh*t, honestly. It allows people like Trump to take power because it doesn't hold voters accountable for what they're actually supporting whether they want to face up to that or not.

      It's why I have no sympathy for Trump voters who want to moan about how unfair it to assume they're racist because they voted for Trump. I mean, you voted for a man who is and always has been historically racist (from way back in the 1970's when he was sued for not letting African Americans rent his apartments) and who built his entire 2016 Presidential campaign on being racist. Newsflash; you're either incredibly naive and stupid or, yeah, you're probably racist. Because guess what? If you weren't so sickened by his comments about, for instance, Mexicans, that you could still vote for him in spite of that, then you're probably a racist. Those comments alone should have been enough to stop any person in their track and not vote for the man purely on principle. If you can see past him literally dehumanising another human being and deliberately inflaming hatred towards them and still vote for him then you probably need to take a hard look in the mirror and question why that is or just own up to the fact that those comments appealed to you because you hold those viewpoints too.

      So I just have no sympathy for Trump voters who feel maligned or unfairly accused of being racist. I have no sympathy for Trump voters who say "Well I don't like he said those things but..." because you still voted for him anyway. And that has real consequences for a lot of real people who are racially vilified and discriminated against in the US. The people who I have sympathy for are the people who are effected in horrendous ways by his policies and by his hateful rhetoric. Not the people who voted for him. If you want to support or vote for a man who is racist then you have to deal with the consequence that people will very understandably assume that you're a racist too. Duh.

      Likewise, I don't actually believe that there's many Trump supporters out there who genuinely think he isn't a rapist. The amount of accusations that have come out about him over the years, the fact that his ex wife accused him of rape decades ago, the fact that he's on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women, is proof enough that he's a sexual predator and scumbag. But they vote for him anyway. But, let's be real, if I were to call Trump supporters out on this who do you think would get more heat? The Trump supporter who votes for a man who has been repeatedly sexually violent towards women (not to mention all the grotesque things he's said about them) or the mean 'lefty' who is being rude and intolerant of people for "holding different political opinions to him?" The latter for sure. And there's something scarily wrong with that.
      Last edited by vampmogs; 06-10-19, 04:20 AM.
      - "The earth is doomed" -

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
        I agree that things are more nuanced and that neither Republicans or Democrats are a monolith that all think the same way. However, I am at a point, and I know this may not be the most popular or appeasing POV, where I no longer see the point of civility. Given the severity of what's happening I believe that this idea that we must remain civil or pleasant to people who, for instance, support or vote for Trump, is not only counterproductive but is also dangerous.

        I think back to when Trump said that there "were good people on both sides" during the Charlottesville race riots and how he was actually comparing one side to white nationalist nazis and trying to make some moral equivalence between the two. It was a disgusting comment that he was rightfully called out on but, to me, it's symbolic of how insidious and dangerous it is to brainwash people into believing that we must always remain civil to people regardless of their moral or political opinions, even if that includes supporting a President who is unapologetically racist and who embraces white nationalism. Those sentiments are only allowed to fester and grow because people, mainly Democrats, are conditioned into thinking that they must "respect" the other sides POV or political opinions and be polite and friendly regardless if you disagree. It's bullsh*t, honestly. It allows people like Trump to take power because it doesn't hold voters accountable for what they're actually supporting whether they want to face up to that or not.

        It's why I have no sympathy for Trump voters who want to moan about how unfair it to assume they're racist because they voted for Trump. I mean, you voted for a man who is and always has been historically racist (from way back in the 1970's when he was sued for not letting African Americans rent his apartments) and who built his entire 2016 Presidential campaign on being racist. Newsflash; you're either incredibly naive and stupid or, yeah, you're probably racist. Because guess what? If you weren't so sickened by his comments about, for instance, Mexicans, that you could still vote for him in spite of that, then you're probably a racist. Those comments alone should have been enough to stop any person in their track and not vote for the man purely on principle. If you can see past him literally dehumanising another human being and deliberately inflaming hatred towards them and still vote for him then you probably need to take a hard look in the mirror and question why that is or just own up to the fact that those comments appealed to you because you hold those viewpoints too.

        So I just have no sympathy for Trump voters who feel maligned or unfairly accused of being racist. I have no sympathy for Trump voters who say "Well I don't like he said those things but..." because you still voted for him anyway. And that has real consequences for a lot of real people who are racially vilified and discriminated against in the US. The people who I have sympathy for are the people who are effected in horrendous ways by his policies and by his hateful rhetoric. Not the people who voted for him. If you want to support or vote for a man who is racist then you have to deal with the consequence that people will very understandably assume that you're a racist too. Duh.

        Likewise, I don't actually believe that there's many Trump supporters out there who genuinely think he isn't a rapist. The amount of accusations that have come out about him over the years, the fact that his ex wife accused him of rape decades ago, the fact that he's on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women, is proof enough that he's a sexual predator and scumbag. But they vote for him anyway. But, let's be real, if I were to call Trump supporters out on this who do you think would get more heat? The Trump supporter who votes for a man who has been repeatedly sexually violent towards women (not to mention all the grotesque things he's said about them) or the mean 'lefty' who is being rude and intolerant of people for "holding different political opinions to him." The latter for sure. And there's something scarily wrong with that.

        It's not just Trump. It's the whole machine. I mean are Americans aware that this is how there Diplomats behave abroad

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ens-death.html

        Comment


        • #34
          vampmogs
          However, I am at a point, and I know this may not be the most popular or appeasing POV, where I no longer see the point of civility. Given the severity of what's happening I believe that this idea that we must remain civil or pleasant to people who, for instance, support or vote for Trump, is not only counterproductive but is also dangerous.
          I am actually sad to have to say I agree. Civility is not only useless by now it is outright dangerous. I am firmly on Buffy`s side when she says "You don`t beat evil by doing evil". That´s why it makes me sad to say this is not the time for civility. I actually do think every political opponent deserves the utmost civility.

          Even now Democrats are in the defense. They are actually trying to defend Biden and claim he did nothing wrong. And that`s so not the point. Even if Biden junior and senior would both be sociopathic mass murderers, what Trump did would still be utterly wrong and disqualifies him to continue as President of the U.S.

          flow
          ................................ Banner by buffylover

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by flow View Post
            Even now Democrats are in the defense. They are actually trying to defend Biden and claim he did nothing wrong. And that`s so not the point. Even if Biden junior and senior would both be sociopathic mass murderers, what Trump did would still be utterly wrong and disqualifies him to continue as President of the U.S.
            flow
            Yep, it looks like situation had reached the point of "us vs them". It doesn't matter for Democrats if Biden is guilty or not, they would defend him only because he's accused by Republicans. And vice versa. It irrelevant what Democrats would say about Trump, it all would be ignored by majority of his supporters. In fact, I think that Democrats have overplayed their hand here. Trump is amoral, opportunistic jerk. Everybody knows that, even his supporters. He's popular despite that. It's very little that can be done to hurt his image any more. On the other hand Biden, same as Hillary before him, are easily hurt by allegation of corruption. It doesn't help that Biden is idiot that can't keep his mouth shut.
            Last edited by Alce; 06-10-19, 09:10 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              I agree that things are more nuanced and that neither Republicans or Democrats are a monolith that all think the same way. However, I am at a point, and I know this may not be the most popular or appeasing POV, where I no longer see the point of civility. Given the severity of what's happening I believe that this idea that we must remain civil or pleasant to people who, for instance, support or vote for Trump, is not only counterproductive but is also dangerous.
              Originally posted by flow
              I am actually sad to have to say I agree. Civility is not only useless by now it is outright dangerous. I am firmly on Buffy`s side when she says "You don`t beat evil by doing evil". That´s why it makes me sad to say this is not the time for civility.
              That really depends on how you define “civility”. If you mean civility, as in being friendly and sociable with Trump supporters, then it’s definitely a no. But if you mean civility, as in being around a Republican/Trump supporter and having the self-composure not to attack them or chuck a can of tea on first sight, then yes. I think the latter is far more counterproductive.

              While I believe in calling people out on their support for Trump, I don’t believe in stooping to their/his level and committing acts of violence and harassment unprovoked. Not only does that accomplish nothing, it just causes me and my side to also look bad. As a minority myself, I’ve been on the receiving end of that kind of extremist behavior. It’s not a good mentality for anyone to have, no matter who it’s directed towards. There are many hateful people in the world, but I'm not going to let that make me hateful too. Buffy's quote still stands.

              Originally posted by vampmogs
              I think back to when Trump said that there "were good people on both sides" during the Charlottesville race riots and how he was actually comparing one side to white nationalist nazis and trying to make some moral equivalence between the two. It was a disgusting comment that he was rightfully called out on but, to me, it's symbolic of how insidious and dangerous it is to brainwash people into believing that we must always remain civil to people regardless of their moral or political opinions, even if that includes supporting a President who is unapologetically racist and who embraces white nationalism. Those sentiments are only allowed to fester and grow because people, mainly Democrats, are conditioned into thinking that they must "respect" the other sides POV or political opinions and be polite and friendly regardless if you disagree. It's bullsh*t, honestly. It allows people like Trump to take power because it doesn't hold voters accountable for what they're actually supporting whether they want to face up to that or not.

              It's why I have no sympathy for Trump voters who want to moan about how unfair it to assume they're racist because they voted for Trump. I mean, you voted for a man who is and always has been historically racist (from way back in the 1970's when he was sued for not letting African Americans rent his apartments) and who built his entire 2016 Presidential campaign on being racist. Newsflash; you're either incredibly naive and stupid or, yeah, you're probably racist. Because guess what? If you weren't so sickened by his comments about, for instance, Mexicans, that you could still vote for him in spite of that, then you're probably a racist. Those comments alone should have been enough to stop any person in their track and not vote for the man purely on principle. If you can see past him literally dehumanising another human being and deliberately inflaming hatred towards them and still vote for him then you probably need to take a hard look in the mirror and question why that is or just own up to the fact that those comments appealed to you because you hold those viewpoints too.

              So I just have no sympathy for Trump voters who feel maligned or unfairly accused of being racist. I have no sympathy for Trump voters who say "Well I don't like he said those things but..." because you still voted for him anyway. And that has real consequences for a lot of real people who are racially vilified and discriminated against in the US. The people who I have sympathy for are the people who are effected in horrendous ways by his policies and by his hateful rhetoric. Not the people who voted for him. If you want to support or vote for a man who is racist then you have to deal with the consequence that people will very understandably assume that you're a racist too. Duh.

              Likewise, I don't actually believe that there's many Trump supporters out there who genuinely think he isn't a rapist. The amount of accusations that have come out about him over the years, the fact that his ex wife accused him of rape decades ago, the fact that he's on tape boasting about sexually assaulting women, is proof enough that he's a sexual predator and scumbag. But they vote for him anyway. But, let's be real, if I were to call Trump supporters out on this who do you think would get more heat? The Trump supporter who votes for a man who has been repeatedly sexually violent towards women (not to mention all the grotesque things he's said about them) or the mean 'lefty' who is being rude and intolerant of people for "holding different political opinions to him?" The latter for sure. And there's something scarily wrong with that.
              I agree with all of this. No one is obligated to respect beliefs that are in support of racism and discrimination and there is definitely a lot of gaslighting directed towards anti-Trumpers for calling out very obvious instances of racism. And like I said above, I believe in holding Trump supporters accountable for things but there’s a way that you go about it.

              Many criticize Trump supporters for being hateful and short-sighted (and that is actually a valid criticism that SHOULD be made, don’t get me wrong) but in the process of doing that, they exhibit hateful and short-sighted behavior themselves that undermine their entire point. The FPJ debacle is an example of that. Even if Freddie Prinze, Jr. had been a Republican, that guy was still an idiot for chucking a tea at him. He risked his freedom and an assault charge in order to attack some guy who didn’t even know he existed. That situation could have turned out much worse than it did and if it had, only one of them would have been seen as an idiot. And it wouldn’t have been Republican-FPJ.

              Honestly though, if I were having this discussion 2-3 years ago (back when I full of *fresh* anger and frustration), I would be saying something completely different than what I’m saying now. But I guess, at this point, I’m just bored with it all. These days when it comes to politics, I’m much more in favor of volunteering, protesting, having *productive* debates with people, and sharing/receiving information (like the articles GoSpuffy and BtVS fan linked to), rather than wasting my time and energy getting into arguments with Trump supporters (IRL and online) that accomplish nothing and just end with me being pissed off.

              Originally posted by StateOfSiege97
              Blaming the population is pure neo-liberal elitism:
              the population would get involved if it felt that there
              was a point in doing so...
              Originally posted by HardlyThere
              The population is absolutely the problem. Most don't even know how the government works and can't tell you who represents them nor who their governor is. Instead they want to give the president more and more power the office was never meant to have, enforcing the idea that congress should follow the executive branch when things were designed to be the other way around.
              I think both of these are correct. It’s the fault of the government *and* the fault of the people, but mostly the government. People should be less apathetic, inform themselves more, and take things seriously – especially with the state and local elections, which have much more direct affect than the presidential ones. But at the same time, the government is so corrupt and incompetent (and has been since its inception) that it’s hard to blame people, particularly minorities, for feeling like there’s no reason to even take it seriously anymore.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by flow View Post
                Even now Democrats are in the defense. They are actually trying to defend Biden and claim he did nothing wrong. And that`s so not the point. Even if Biden junior and senior would both be sociopathic mass murderers, what Trump did would still be utterly wrong and disqualifies him to continue as President of the U.S.
                Truth!

                I also think those Democrats who argue "there's no point in impeaching him because we don't control the Senate" are also really missing the point. It doesn't matter if the Senate won't remove him from office. I mean, they absolutely should, but we've already seen the Republican party sell their souls to keep hold of power. They know that Trump is guilty and, frankly, there's enough evidence that the majority of Republicans in Washington secretly think he's both a scumbag and a moron, but they'll support him anyway. Nobody actually believes the Republicans are going to suddenly have some integrity and remove the President. But that's not the point. You impeach him because it's the right and moral thing to do. You impeach him to take a stand and say that it's not ok for the President to abuse his power like this and corrupt the highest office in the land. You don't set a precedent that a President can commit corrupt and treasonous behaviour because he'll never be removed from power anyway. It's maddening that they don't see that.

                I'm also really grossed out that people were hesitant to impeach him because it could be political suicide. F*ck politics! This is about doing what's right.

                Originally posted by Andrew S. View Post
                That really depends on how you define “civility”. If you mean civility, as in being friendly and sociable with Trump supporters, then it’s definitely a no. But if you mean civility, as in being around a Republican/Trump supporter and having the self-composure not to attack them or chuck a can of tea on first sight, then yes. I think the latter is far more counterproductive.
                Oh I agree. I'm not suggesting that we should be physically violent against Trump supporters. When I talk about "civility" I'm more talking about this annoying and dangerous notion that we should "see things from both sides" and that people "shouldn't let politics get in the way" as if our politics aren't a reflection of our morals and who we are as people. Maybe there was some truth to that a long time ago but in 2019's America? No way. You either support a white nationalist, racist, corrupt, deranged, rapist President - or you don't.

                People need to be comfortable saying that without the fear that people will think they're unreasonable or impolite. They literally threw children in cages, screw being polite!

                While I believe in calling people out on their support for Trump, I don’t believe in stooping to their/his level and committing acts of violence and harassment unprovoked. Not only does that accomplish nothing, it just causes me and my side to also look bad. As a minority myself, I’ve been on the receiving end of that kind of extremist behavior. It’s not a good mentality for anyone to have, no matter who it’s directed towards. There are many hateful people in the world, but I'm not going to let that make me hateful too. Buffy's quote still stands.
                I totally understand this POV and I agree with it to an extent. However, I do shy away somewhat from a belief that it makes the other side look bad. Or perhaps I shy away from the commonly held notion that it makes the other side look "just as bad" which is something you hear a lot. It's that old "Why are you intolerant of my intolerance!?" bullsh*t that bigots moan about often. It's a false equivalency that they trot out whenever they want to be discriminatory against POC or discriminatory against gays because "they don't agree with their lifestyle." They try and turn the tables on the left and state that they're "intolerant" of other people's views as if anyone should abide by other human beings stating that they "don't agree" with the "lifestyle" (aka how gay people are born) of their fellow humankind. Like, no. You're intolerant of other people literally existing and wanting to be who they are without hurting anybody. I'm intolerant of your prejudice, dehumanization and discrimination of innocent people all because your hateful, stupid or both. There's no equivalence.

                I get what you're saying about not wanting to let hateful people in the world turn you hateful too. I feel that often and I don't think it's healthy. It can often make me feel, literally, physically sick. But I do have a lot of respect for people who have the endurance to passionately go out and rally against this administration and a lot of the issues plaguing their country right now. I also will freely admit that it's hard for me to care if Nazi pigs (like in Charlottesville) were met with violence. We used to do far worse to Nazi's back in the day and our ancestors would all be rolling in their graves if they knew they fought for us all to be manipulated into believing we have to "respect" a Nazi's viewpoint or even tolerate them being in our own countries.

                It reminds me of a news article I read recently of a police officer being fired after he was selling his house and in an open inspection potential buyers walked through and discovered his KKK memorabilia and membership. He was hanging it from his bedroom wall and shocked people took pictures of it and posted it online. Reading the comment section under the article was so 'effing depressing because there were more comments from Americans complaining that the police officer lost his job or that his privacy was disrespected (despite the fact he knew the public would be walking through it and he brazenly had his membership framed and hanging from his wall) then there was people angry about the fact that a police officer was a member of the freakin' KKK.

                And I think a lot of that is down to our desensitisation of how serious these hate groups are, this false equivalency that all POVs are equal, and that it's some how "un-American" to hold people accountable for their bigoted, hateful views. It's also just down to how racist the US still is, let's be honest.

                I agree with all of this. No one is obligated to respect beliefs that are in support of racism and discrimination and there is definitely a lot of gaslighting directed towards anti-Trumpers for calling out very obvious instances of racism. And like I said above, I believe in holding Trump supporters accountable for things but there’s a way that you go about it.
                Yep agreed.

                Many criticize Trump supporters for being hateful and short-sighted (and that is actually a valid criticism that SHOULD be made, don’t get me wrong) but in the process of doing that, they exhibit hateful and short-sighted behavior themselves that undermine their entire point. The FPJ debacle is an example of that. Even if Freddie Prinze, Jr. had been a Republican, that guy was still an idiot for chucking a tea at him. He risked his freedom and an assault charge in order to attack some guy who didn’t even know he existed. That situation could have turned out much worse than it did and if it had, only one of them would have been seen as an idiot. And it wouldn’t have been Republican-FPJ.
                I agree that the guy was a total idiot, if nothing else for, as you say, risking his own freedom and an assault charge. There's many smarter ways you could go about confronting Republicans without risk to yourself or actually causing physical harm to somebody in anyway. Absolutely.

                However, I do think there needs to be some more honest reflection in regards to what the Trump Administration are currently doing, what the Republican party is in turn supporting and condoning, and as a result of that what it means to be a Republican in the Trumpian error and what an individual, as a Republican, is choosing to support and align themselves to. There's still this unwillingness for people to actually go there and this incessant need to be "polite" and respect everybody's political opinions on "both sides" as if it isn't a national crisis. Republicans complain a lot about media bias against them but, honestly, the media doesn't go in anywhere near hard enough. The media still perpetuates this outdated, dishonest idea that "both sides" should be respected and would never be willing to actually call out the Republican party for what it's guilty of.

                Frankly, I've even witnessed it in Buffy fandom. There's been posters in the past on these actual forums who've stated things like "I don't agree with Trump but..." and then launch into a tirade about how annoying SJW's are and how they hate political correctness etc. Like, talk about some messed up priorities. You seem far more annoyed by albeit annoying but ultimately harmless Tumblr people then you do Trump. These people will rant incessantly about SJWs and yet you never see them dedicate the same energy or passion to ranting about, say, racism, sexism or homophobia. It's not a good look.

                Honestly though, if I were having this discussion 2-3 years ago (back when I full of *fresh* anger and frustration), I would be saying something completely different than what I’m saying now. But I guess, at this point, I’m just bored with it all. These days when it comes to politics, I’m much more in favor of volunteering, protesting, having *productive* debates with people, and sharing/receiving information (like the articles GoSpuffy and BtVS fan linked to), rather than wasting my time and energy getting into arguments with Trump supporters (IRL and online) that accomplish nothing and just end with me being pissed off.
                I've kind of reached a sad place where I no longer have any hope at all of reaching Trump supporters. There's some hope of reaching people who aren't passionately devoted to either party and who voted for Trump in 2016 because they weren't sure what to do, but his hardcore base is truly a lost cause. I also think Republicans devoted to their party, even before country, are a lost cause too even if they say they don't personally like Trump. Because at the end of the day they'll still always vote Republican no matter what.

                I honestly spend most of my energy now no longer trying to persuade Trump supporters but in turn just holding them accountable. Telling them the reality of what they're voting for and how that's a reflection on them as a person. If they're a lost cause, the very least I can do is not let them get away with it easily. It's how a lot of horrible things in history have happened and it's why America is in real danger of letting it happen again until people, especially Democrats, stop worry about being polite and start getting serious and holding people to the fire. If that makes people uncomfortable then it just means it's working.
                - "The earth is doomed" -

                Comment


                • #38
                  For the record, I'm sad at what seemingly prompted SMG to clarify, but I'd be lying if it didn't make me also glad to have it confirmed that SMG is a Democrat. And I have to agree with vampmogs. I really believe in civility and tolerance, and the person who flung that can of tea at Freddie was absolutely wrong and it was an idiotic and uncalled for thing to do.

                  But on the whole, I do feel like it's a scary time we live in if it's considered 'impolite' not to speak out against some of the hypocrisy surrounding discussions of Trump from his supporters. Extremism is never good, obviously, and the example above is unacceptable, so I agree that productive debate has far greater value. But I admit it sometimes feels impossible to even hope for that. I think I would feel less scared/ disillusioned if some of Trump's supporters could openly admit that he *is* in fact a misogynistic, racist creep, rather than say, no, he's just a blunt-talking businessman, he actually loves women, he's not racist, he's not discriminatory against minorities, he's not all of these things, etc. That's what's scary to me. If there could just be acknowledgement of who Trump actually is, then I'd at least feel there isn't hypocrisy underlying rationalisations of Trump's behaviour. It's the fact that so many supporters often actively deny it by saying no, he's not actually a racist, he's not misogynistic, he's not this or that, he's not someone who sexually assaults women etc. Because I know they don't believe it themselves and it makes me despair for people's morals and integrity — or if they DO believe what they're saying, it makes me worry for our collective sanity. I do believe in respecting different political viewpoints with absolute civility, but I feel like it's gotten to a point in our current political climate where that's actually dangerous.

                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                  However, I do think there needs to be some more honest reflection in regards to what the Trump Administration are currently doing, what the Republican party is in turn supporting and condoning, and as a result of that what it means to be a Republican in the Trumpian error and what an individual, as a Republican, is choosing to support and align themselves to.
                  I agree, it's saddening that it's reached a point where we have to redefine everything because there's never been a situation like this before. Your description of our current "Trumpian error" is the most telling Freudian slip ever.
                  .
                  buffylover made this stunning banner

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I think it's important to be civil in that we're not openly attacking either verbally or physically those with different opinions. At the same time it is 100% important we call out racism and discrimination where ever we see it. Education is the only way out of this mess. Racism stems from fear and ignorance. It's just something hard to believe it still exists at the levels we are seeing today.


                    I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      People talk about the Democrats but people forget at one point Trump was a Democrat. Maybe not as overtly as Trump but I'm sure some have the same views.
                      It was telling how many of them went after Ilhan Omar yet have not condemned Trump even though some of his language about her puts her life in danger.
                      Btw its already gone beyond words. The Murderer in New Zealand who live streamed the massacre was inspired by Trump.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by SpuffyGlitz View Post
                        I think I would feel less scared/ disillusioned if some of Trump's supporters could openly admit that he *is* in fact a misogynistic, racist creep, rather than say, no, he's just a blunt-talking businessman, he actually loves women, he's not racist, he's not discriminatory against minorities, he's not all of these things, etc. That's what's scary to me.
                        Sadly, I think part of the reason they refuse to admit it is because they share many of his views. How many times have you seen a Trump supporter state that they reason they like him is because unlike other politicians he's "just saying what we're all thinking?" Trump is legitimately a moron but he is cunning in how he deliberately appeals to the worst of us through his nastiness and xenophobia. He knows exactly what he's doing when he stokes racial tensions and he's only able to do that because those tensions still existed.

                        It leave me really worried with how the US is meant to recover after Trump. Unless there's an overwhelming rebuke against him not just from Democrats and Independents but from Republicans as well, Trump has exposed the hateful underbelly of America and things can't just go back to normal when he's out of office. I think a lot of people were kidding themselves, certainly in the Obama era, that the US had overcome a lot of these issues. Now that they're exposed, that he's encouraging them even, that's a lot harder to ignore.

                        I think Trump himself is hateful, reactionary blowback (thanks Buffy Season 8) to Obama in the first place. I actually remember that there was an old Republican poster on this forum who after the 2012 election, declared in a state of panic that there'd never be another white President again. I laughed then because not only was it ridiculously paranoid but because why would anyone ever make such an assumption after having merely 1 President out of the previous 44 who wasn't a white male? Nevertheless, those fears and those resentments were definitely at play when the US went from electing it's very first black president to it's most vile, racist president who built his entire campaign on demonising brown people and bashing Obama.

                        You see coded language all the time when Trump fans discuss Obama vs Trump. I can't count the many times I've seen Republicans post comments (on the Dailymail etc) saying how they're so thankful to have a "classy" family back in the White House again. We all know that "classy" is code for "white." Because, let's be serious, in what bizzaro world are the Trump's more classy than the Obamas? This would be the reality TV star president, yes? The president who has notoriously cheated on all his wives? The president who cheated on his pregnant wife, with a porn star, and then paid her off in hush money? The president who boasts about sexually assaulting women, refers to them as "bleeding out of everywhere", calls women "fat pigs" on twitter, refers to places as "sh*thole countries" and has treated his entire presidency as if it were an episode of The Apprentice? The same President who has a wife far younger than him that used to be a nude model in porn magazines? Can you just imagine if that had been Michelle Obama? The Trumps have degraded the prestige of the White House to it's lowest form ever and yet in comparison to Obama who was scandal-free and by all accounts a devoted family man, and Michelle Obama who is a Harvard Law graduate, they're still not "classy" enough for these people. We all know why.

                        Have you seen the videos of his rallies with supporters yelling out the n-word? It's vile.

                        I agree, it's saddening that it's reached a point where we have to redefine everything because there's never been a situation like this before. Your description of our current "Trumpian error" is the most telling Freudian slip ever.
                        Lol goddamn! Freudian slip indeed!

                        Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
                        Racism stems from fear and ignorance. It's just something hard to believe it still exists at the levels we are seeing today.
                        Yeah it's really disheartening to see history repeat itself again and again. People's willingness to blame the "other" (aka brown immigrants) for their problems never ceases to amaze me. And Trump totally knows how to stoke those xenophobic hateful sentiments. It's astounding to me that there's so many Americans who would rather blame immigrants for endangering their country then face the reality that, even according to their own intelligence agencies, the biggest threat to America's security are homegrown white supremacists. People are so fixated on trying to keep people out then face the problem within. It isn't immigrants who are systematically committing mass slaughter with high-powered guns. It's homegrown, hateful white males. But racists would never want to acknowledge that.
                        Last edited by vampmogs; 07-10-19, 09:53 AM.
                        - "The earth is doomed" -

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                        • #42
                          At least this woman has been named and shamed thank God. Anne Sacoola you are a murderer a liar and a coward and you need to come back and face justice for what you have done
                          https://news.sky.com/story/anne-saco...unity-11829478

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                            At least this woman has been named and shamed thank God. Anne Sacoola you are a murderer a liar and a coward and you need to come back and face justice for what you have done
                            https://news.sky.com/story/anne-saco...unity-11829478
                            I think it was an accident, but claiming immunity and running away is pretty unforgivable.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                              I think it was an accident, but claiming immunity and running away is pretty unforgivable.
                              Agreed. Even if it was an accident. She lied to the Police about not leaving then left

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                              • #45
                                All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




                                Guys, there is this thread: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...lection-Thread

                                and this thread: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...-on-in-the-U-S


                                For the thread topic, it's nice that SMG can still get press.

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