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  • NileQT87
    replied
    Originally posted by Raven View Post
    that Shanshu was a dud and neither Spike nor Angel became human...
    Spoiler:
    time to catch up on those ats comics.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raven
    replied
    I personally think that Spike should have had the Shanshu, because whereas Angel wanted to be human so he could be with Buffy without the risk of losing his soul, Spike saw the bigger picture, the gift of humanity himself. He could find a way to be with Buffy anyways since he wouldn't lose his newly-instilled soul, so although I think Buffy was part of the reason he wanted to be human, it wasn't the only reason. I felt that Spike wanted to rid himself of all traces of the monster he was so he could feel more....well, human on his path to redemption. This is what I think, at least. It may have been Angel's show, but for Spike to come and take it from him, it would have made Angel's story more tragic, and he'd have to find some other way to become human. I also believe than, in strength, they are equal. Both are skilled fighters, both have the same vampiric strength. I don't think it was luck that spike won. I think it was his desire to be human that won it for him. But unfortunately in the the, that Shanshu was a dud and neither Spike nor Angel became human...

    Leave a comment:


  • kudagirl
    replied
    Each one reacted in a different manner when they gained the soul. Angel tried to stay with Darla, but fought the urge to kill and feed. Once Darla threw him out, he wandered for around a hundred years. During that time period he did not actively try to do good. He tried to help Judy, but other wise just drifted. He only got set on his road of redemption when Whistler showed him Buffy. Angel was attracted to her and changed the way he was living. Even in Sunnydale he would drop hints of things to come and disappear on her. He finally got into giving her the help she needed.

    Spike even when he didn't have a soul would do things that benefited the world. He was shelfish in his reasons to help Buffy during Becoming, Part 2, but it did help save the world. Spike chose to stick around and help protect Dawn while Buffy was dead. He chose to get the soul thinking it was what he needed to win Buffy. Buffy having ties to the world help keep her alive and having the same group in his life helped Spike deal with his past when he went mad after getting the soul. Even while he was still suffering he tried to do the right things and protect those around him. In Chosen, Spike gave the most anyone could to the world. He gave his undead life to prevent The First from winning. He thought it would be over for him and never gave it another thought. He just did what was needed.

    Angel allowed his morals to drift several times on Angel. The lawyers, the SWAT team leader, and with Wes, we saw the dark side of Angel.

    Spike gave up a chance to become solid in order to save Fred. Then when he did become solid again he could have run to Buffy, but didn't. When Fred died, he decided to stay and fight the good fight.

    Either of them could have been given the Shanshu. Both had different journeys, but both worked at being better. Their own personalities effected their paths to being a better person.

    Leave a comment:


  • blue_peroxide
    replied
    They both deserve it, definitely. But I guess Angel just wants it more, wants to be the 'real boy' - so probably he should indeed get his prize. Spike doesn't seem to have awfully existentialist problems with his vampire identity. Also let us not forget that the Shanshu was designed for Angel by the writers - and I cannot not say it is really cool that Spike whom no-one expected to survive (and by no-one I mean both writers and the BtVS characters) has not only survived but also become champion and now qualifies for Angel's holy grail, the Shanshu!
    Although I said Angel should probably get it I absolutely do not think that we can just dismiss the fact that Angel was cursed with his soul and Spike sought it out as nonimportant. I totally agree with Lee here: an evil vampire wanting his soul back is amazing. And loving someone actually is one of the noblest reasons I can think of...

    Leave a comment:


  • vampmogs
    replied
    Originally posted by lee View Post
    All that proves is Angel really should have got a grip a long time ago.
    Angel had no one to help him, Spike did. Buffy motivates both of them to get off their asses and fight evil, difference is Buffy was there for Spike a lot sooner than she was around for Angel. Also got to take into account that Spike actually asked Buffy to dust him in 'Sleeper' so Angel wasn't the only one who needed to 'get a grip' in their development. Buffy helped both men immensly.

    If you think on it, an evil vampire wanting his soul back for any reason is amazing. at
    least Spike done it because he loved someone, isnt that a good enough reason?
    The Shanshu Prophecy is about their actions with the soul, not how they got the soul. I see it as pretty irrelevant really, and quite unfair to Angel to base it on that.

    Its more than can be said for Angel, his was forced upon him then he
    sat around crying about it for 100 years, feeling sorry for himself. Nah, Angel dosent
    have any special rights or privelages to the Prophecy.
    Both are champions. But at this point in time it'd be a kick in the teeth for Angel not to get it. They've both saved the world, but Angel's been a champion longer and understandably has done more good than Spike because of that. If all it took was the vampire being willing to give up his life for others and killing bad guys on occasion, Angel would have qualified and gotten it by Ats s2.

    And that's why I don't understand logically how Spike would be able to get it any time soon, when Angel has such a head start on him. Wesley states in 'To Shanshu In LA' that in order to become human, it won't happen anytime soon and that there's several foes the vampire must defeat, as well as plagues if I remember correctly. So far Angel is the only vampire with a soul who’s been in a plague ('Apocalypse Nowish' with the infestation of rates and flocks of birds) and has defeated more big foes than Spike at this current time. Logically in that sense, Angel's much further ahead in ticking of the Shanshu checklist.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 09-06-08, 05:44 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nina
    replied
    They are just different kind of people, and I think that Spike's behavior towards his past a bigger problem is than Angel's behavior. It's not until 'Damage' that Spike is understanding that Angel is not just a crybaby and starts understanding how big the impact of his work is.

    And you can't forget how their first year with a soul was. Spike had an example in Angel and he got help from the scoobies. Angel was all alone, dumped and nobody cared about him ... nobody cheered for him, and he got it together ... but the communication with other people went very difficult and he started to be alone. But he went to Las Vegas, New York, LA ... he tried to save Judy ... he went to concerts. He was just alone and didn't fight (but he tried, there was just no faith in humanity ... it was't worth saving in Angel's eyes.).

    And the 'how did they get their soul' thing, what is important about that? It's what you do with it. Really, Spike didn't do it because he wanted to be a good man, or because he loved somebody like we love somebody. He was obsessed and believed that this was the only way to get back into Buffy's pants, to force her to care about him. Nothing very pretty. But what else can you accept? Vampires are vampires, the last thing they want is doing the right thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • lee
    replied
    Yeah but thats Angels problem. Who cares if he spends 100 years getting over it?
    All that proves is Angel really should have got a grip a long time ago.
    If you think on it, an evil vampire wanting his soul back for any reason is amazing. at
    least Spike done it because he loved someone, isnt that a good enough reason?
    Its more than can be said for Angel, his was forced upon him then he
    sat around crying about it for 100 years, feeling sorry for himself. Nah, Angel dosent
    have any special rights or privelages to the Prophecy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Revan
    replied
    Angel all the way!

    The only reason spike got his soul in the first place was to get in buffy's pants! no other reason. That's his excuse for why he should get it. And how much did spike work for it again? Nowhere near as much really.

    Has he regretted what he's done? Not really he's just conviently forgotten. He donesn't say sorry. It's like how Faith conviently forgot how she killed the mayor's guy. He doesn't mourn. Which to me shows he doesn't really care.

    Not that I'm saying he should brood as much as angel did/does.

    Angel has worked so much harder and gone through so much punishment. For example to quote him (sort of)

    " I spent 100 years getting over what I'd done. You cried for a few days in a basement

    Leave a comment:


  • ThePoet's<3
    replied
    I think both of them deserve to "Shanshu".

    Angel has born his soul w/its curse and tried to always do the right thing.

    Spike deliberately fought to get his soul back because he loved someone so much he wanted to make her happy.

    One was cursed w/a soul and one fought for a soul. They've both learned - one maybe a little longer than the other - that what matters is the good they do now with the soul they have. So I think they both deserve the prize.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nina
    replied
    Spoiler:
    I think that it's more likely that the cover isn't literal. That it's from Gunn's POV (who still thinks that Angel is a vampire) or that it's the spell who makes everybody think that Angel is still a vampire. If they change Angel back, they will probably make it a big twist or suprise in the comic, so they won't show it on one of the covers ... that would spoil it.

    Leave a comment:


  • lee
    replied
    Im just new to Atf but
    Spoiler:
    I
    seen the cover for #11 and, well, Angels got vampire face.
    i can see this cuurent human form being a false alarm, and he
    will go back to vamp Angel.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nina
    replied
    Above the place where you write your text, is list with 'buttons' like B, I, U etc. If you write your spoilertext and you select it afterwards and you press on the last button of that row ... there will be spoilerbars.

    or you typ the code;

    [spoiler*] spoilertext [/SPOILER] (without the * of course)

    Leave a comment:


  • lee
    replied
    Before i go putting spoilers in, how do you put the spoiler alert thing up?

    Leave a comment:


  • Nina
    replied
    I love that the Shanshu isn't a beautiful reward, let's make that clear.

    About ATF
    Spoiler:
    I never wanted it to be a cheesy reward, that's why I love the way it happened. If it would've been different, you get the scene like we saw in Soul Purpose with Spike who got humanity given my fairies after he created a Disney world. It's not a reward, but Angel created it himself, they made him human because of who he is and not because they want to reward him or help him. It fits in his story, but it's also a glimp of hope for the future, a chance to live a normal life ... but he has to create that himself, just like he forced the SP to make him human.

    So, I doubt that the writers can give me a more statisfying Shanshu than this one, that is one of the main reasons why I want this to be the Shanshu.
    Last edited by Nina; 31-05-08, 10:14 PM.

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  • kana
    replied
    Ok I'm a little tired and I've had a little to drink but here it is.

    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    It's not possibe to give Spike the Shanshu, it's for Angel. Not because it's not possible in the story, but if they retcon the whole Shanshu thing ... it would feel so cheap. The Shanshu is introduced in Angel's show for Angel and if you take it away from him in his own show, I doubt that it would feel statisfying. Again, tv-justice ... it's Angel's thing and the possibility that it can be for Spike as well, is not more than a way to make Angel doubt himself.
    As I've said on another thread when I'm analyzing this I tend to look at evidence inside the show rather than looking at my own emotional motivations. From a narrative perspective it makes sense that Angel would the Shanshu but I still feel that the Shanshu isn't necessarily about justice. Angel has always been kind of an self defined existential character. Even if he does Shanshu, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be a reward. I kind of like that idea that s**t happens and he has to deal with it. I can relate to that lol.

    And if I've to say who deserves it more in the story; again Angel. Angel is on this moment the one who fights because it's the right thing ... where Spike still needs a person to fight for (Buffy, Fred and maybe Angel), and that's not a bad thing and there is a big chance that Spike will be there one day ... but right now, Angel is more a 'hero'.
    I've never really seen it as a score board. I really believe in Angel's champion speech and it states that it doesn't really matter how you got there but it's the fact that you are fighting for a better world. Angel regards Spike in such a way. That's enough for me. Angel was cursed by chance and Spike may not have become a champion without meeting Buffy but it's what they do subsequent to that, that matters.


    Another point; Angel hates being a vampire ... Spike seems to be okay with it. Angel can't deal very well with being immortal, with his past and who he is. Where Spike has less trouble with it. I think that there is no way that Angel will ever have peace with who he is ... not really. And he won't (and can't) be very happy ... and Spike can IMO.
    Spike is very adaptable in that respect. I can actually imagine him being ok with being human or a vampire. With Angel, we have to understand that he is equally at odds with who is and well as what he is. The awkwardness and self-loathing come from the 'Liam' part of him rather than the demon. Part of why I like him lol.




    Spoiler:
    I believe that Angel recieved the shanshu, and I'm very happy how that happened so I hope that it really is his shanshu and not some weird effect of hell.
    Spoiler:
    I kind of hope so but for the reason's I've mentioned. I hope it's the Senior Partners because it would be ironic that the one thing that Angel really wants, he gets but at the most ill-opportune time, but I'd love it if he turns it on his head and is able to find a purpose as human. After spending over two centuries as a vampire I could actually see him struggle with this. Someone as resourceful and smart as Angel can always find a reason to brood.

    Leave a comment:

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