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  • Anything so prosaic as 'winning.'.

    Why do they all fight? Is there are a prize, is there a chance to beat the good/bad side? Fighting to get power? Fighting because you have to fight? Fighting for forgiveness ... Or is it all about being a good person?

    some quotes about this subject;

    W&H's reason.
    Angel: "You're not gonna win."
    Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"
    Angel: "Then why?"
    Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"
    Angel: "Why fight?"
    Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."


    Angel's reason
    Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
    Kate: "And now you do?"
    Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."


    &

    But I did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be.

    Buffy's idea.
    Buffy: Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do.

    The First's idea
    "It's not about right, not about wrong...it's about power."


    What do you all think?
    Why should they fight? And should they win? Or are they winning the moment they fight? Is 'power' a reason for only bad guys or can it be a reason for good guys as well? And what is more important; Being a good person or being a good warrior?

    And why do you think that some of the characters fight?
    Last edited by Nina; 17-05-08, 02:12 PM.

  • #2
    I'm not sure there's a right or wrong reason to fight. I think it greatly depends on the character and the situation they are in. For Angel a lot of the time he's fighting to make an amends for his dark past, which is different from the reasons Buffy is fighting. Neither is correct or wrong, but understandably unique to that individual and them alone.

    It's interesting that you bring up Buffy's speech to Angel in 'Amends' which I'll just quote again as point of reference;

    Buffy: Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do.

    Because ultimately I feel this becomes Angel's mission statement later on whereas it seems to drop off Buffy's radar, which I'd see as a negative and a regression for her character. It automatically seems to have an effect on Angel when he gives his first draft of his 'Epiphany' speech to Buffy in 'Ginerbread;'

    Angel: Buffy, you know, I'm still figuring things out. There's a lot I don't understand. But I do know it's important to keep fighting. I learned that from you.

    Buffy: But we never...

    Angel: We never win.

    Buffy: Not completely.

    Angel: We never will. That's not why we fight. We do it 'cause there's things worth fighting for. Those kids. Their parents.


    I call it the first draft of his 'Epiphany' speech because as you can see it's quite similar to what he tells Kate;

    Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
    Kate: "And now you do?"
    Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."


    It's about the eternal struggle, the small things, and not about winning. That's something Buffy taught him in 'Amends' but something she admits she's lost in 'The Gift;'

    BUFFY: I sacrificed Angel to save the world. I loved him so much. But I knew ... what was right. I don't have that any more. I don't understand. I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices. If everything just gets stripped away. I don't see the point. I just wish that... (tearfully) I just wish my mom was here.

    In the end I think Buffy's real fight becomes about power. You ask, Is 'power' a reason for only bad guys or can it be a reason for good guys as well? Buffy's put in a place where it isn't about fighting everyday and not about winning, she's forced into a decision in 'Chosen' where she has to be the one with the power to win. She has to make the grand gesture and active all the slayers because the First is all about power. And if your opposition is trying to claim as much power as possible it's only natural you'll do likewise in an attempt to defend yourself, it's a vicious circle. So in the end I think Buffy's mission statement becomes a lot more "it's about power" than her original mission statement in 'Amends.' Hence, Joss having the First say this in the form of Buffy, having Buffy seek out the scythe which is the key to her power and her slayer funded operation in season 8.

    Arguably one could say Angel's also lost the mission, resorting to grand drastic measures in 'Not Fade Away' to counter Wolfram and Hart. And ultimately I feel, like Buffy, he's forced to hit back with bigger blows due to his opponents doing likewise. He was trapped between a rock and a hard place, but ultimately I still think he believes what Buffy taught him in 'Amends' and what he says in 'Epiphany' moreso than Buffy, who's been at "the mercy of life" and just trying to get through every day in tact let alone fighting for something. Hopefully season 8 can rectify that, I've seen promising signs thus far.

    Who knows, perhaps Angel could return the favour and give Buffy the speech she needs like she did for him up on that hill, much like he did for Kate, which has done many positive things for her as evident by 'After the Fall.'

    To quickly answer your other questions;

    And what is more important; Being a good person or being a good warrior?

    I think the two come hand in hand. To be a good warrior you need to be a good person. Unless you mean 'good' in terms of a successful warrior, which in that case I'd say you need to strongly believe and have conviction in what you're doing. One of the great things about Joss Whedon's big bads was that they believed in what they were doing, they believed it was right, and this motivation made them deadly. When Buffy believes what she is doing is right and when she's not unsure of herself she makes a big difference, same goes for Angel.

    And why do you think that some of the characters fight?

    I'll post a couple of quotes under each character here;

    Willow:

    I think this is the root to it all. She's ultimately a very good person who genuingly wants to help people;

    Willow: Actually, this isn't about you. Although I'm fond, don't get me wrong, of you. The other night, you know, being captured and all, facing off with Faith. Things just, kind of, got clear. I mean, you've been fighting evil here for three years, and I've helped some, and now we're supposed to decide what we want to do with our lives. And I just realized that that's what I want to do. Fight evil, help people. I mean, I-I think it's worth doing. And I don't think you do it because you have to. It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in.

    But it's a tiny bit more complicated than that;

    Buffy: I kind of love you.

    Willow: And, besides, I have a shot at being a bad ass Wiccan, and what better place to learn?


    Willow also wanted power, she wanted to be that 'bad ass Wiccan' and not 'regular Willow' which also motivated her. One of the things they screwed up so badly in season six was this lame cover up that it was some form of magic addiction when really, Willow's always had a conquest for power ever since she got a taste of it. In season 7 it seems she's learnt a different lesson but it'll be interesting to see what her "6 month mystical walkabout" in season 8 brings in this regard. But generally Willow wants to help because she's a good person who wants to save people's lives.

    Giles:

    Giles wants to help out of a sense of guilt for his past. Like Angel he feels like he needs to make an amends for his past;

    "But those of us who refused to pay the piper during our adolescence have a responsibility to shoulder the most unpleasant costs of adulthood"

    He believes it is his debt to society. And we see in 'The Freshman' it's his love for Buffy that also makes him want to fight, he can't "Leave you (her) out there to fight the evil alone." Which I think is Xander's main reason for fighting as well, "Buffy."

    Anya:

    Anya's main reason for fighting is humanity. IMO as much as she hates to admit it she wants to be human, they've inspired her. She fled in 'Graduation Day Part I' but in 'Chosen' she sticks around;

    Well...I guess I was...kinda new to bein' around humans before. But now I've... seen a lot more, gotten to know people... seen what they're capable of, and... (shrugs) I guess I just realized...how amazingly screwed-up they all are. I mean really, really screwed-up in a monumental fashion. And they have no purpose that unites them, so they just drift around, blundering through life until they die...which they...they know is coming, yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to them. They're incapable of thinking about what they want beyond the moment. They kill each other, which is clearly insane. And yet, here's the thing. When it's something that really matters, they fight. I mean, they're lame morons for fighting, but they do. They never... never quit. So I guess I will keep fighting, too.

    I'll post more later.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 04-10-09, 11:16 AM.
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    • #3
      Wow okay anything I write after Mogs post is going to seem miniscule and pointless.


      And why do you think that some of the characters fight?
      This is the only question I had an opinion about so I'll just answer this one. I think the difference between Buffy and Angel is the fact that Buffy NEEDS to fight to stay in this world. Angel doesn't, or at least he didn't until he started to piss off other demons by killing them. Once Buffy was called to be a slayer, she was the one being sought out. Yes she would seek out demons on her nightly patrols but most of the time they would come looking for her or at least the big bads would anyway. She didn't have a choice. She either fights or dies... or does both. Angel fights because of what both of you guys already stated above, redemption and now because he want's to help people. I honestly don't think Buffy would fight if she wasn't called to be the Slayer because from what we saw and heard from the characters mouths, she was just a normal teenage girl. Fiesta Queen, cheeleader, popular, there was never a reason to fight UNTIL she was slayerized!

      I think Xander fights mainly because that's what his friends were doing. He started off having a crush on Buffy so undoubtedly he would help her out in hopes of maybe something happening between them. And once he figured out he wasn't going to get anywhere with Buffy he had to find another reason to fight and I sort of think that reason was that he didn't have anything else to do at the time. Yes in later years on the show I think he fought because he wanted to help people but at first we all know that's not the reason he started to fight alongside the Slayer. He wouldn't have really belonged in the scooby group anymore if he didn't fight so it was kind of a fight or lose your friends sort of thing. I mean we all saw what he was like in the beginning of season 4. He was on the outside looking in. He wasn't at school with the gang. The girls were wrapped up in their own lives at college that he didn't really have a place in their lives anymore. This all led to the whole fight in The Yoko Factor which showed how much of an outcast Xander is if he didn't have the fighting to keep him in the core four.
      T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

      Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

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      • #4
        People fight and it comes down to two simple reasons.
        If it isnt principle, then its power/control.

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        • #5
          Wow okay anything I write after Mogs post is going to seem miniscule and pointless.
          Which Is exactly why i Didnt post anything. I looked at the post and was thinking what I was going to say at work and Then When I came home I saw that post and I was like Screw it anything i say after that is gonna sem like I copied off her it. But anyways Like said before I Think people fight for different reasons. It all depends on various factors such as Experiences they've had, Their personality, Power, friends and multiple other things

          Being a good person or being a good warrior?
          IMO being a good person would be better than a good warrior. Dont get me wrong, being a good Warrior is Vital but If your an A**hole and u need help chances are youre not getting it and youre going to die becuz of it. If your a good person atleast you might have people helping you which might make for an easier time fighting or whatever.
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          • #6
            I was thinking about Xander in these terms, recently.
            Spoiler:
            Especially in terms of what looks like it was Renee's death in the latest comic.


            If he's the ordinary guy, it's like, his secret super power is suffering, or something- he's been through the wringer plenty, yet he fights on. Not because he has to coz he's a warlock, or a slayer or a watcher, but because I think he made a choice when he met Buffy. His choice was influenced by a) Buffy , b) Willow's choice- his best friend who was also choosing Buffy's fight, c) the desire to not be alone, and therefore fighting with Buffy and Willow was a better choice and d) overall, the choice/realisation that there was good to be done in the world, and he wanted in.

            Not to imply Buffy and Willow (and Giles, and whoever else) haven't suffered. They have.

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            • #7
              I believe that initially Buffy faught because she'd been gifted a bunch of power and that once you've seen whats out there its not that easy to walk away from, so she wanted to do the right thing. I think slowly that slightly evolved and became fighting for power as well, because having power is when you can make a real difference. Angel fights for forgiveness, validation he's a good person, to move on from his past as a creator of havoc and chaos. Someone like Illyria (whatever you think of Fred being in there or not and influencing her) was fighting for revenge I think, running on anger as well at being depleated and possibly in the final battle, although we didn't see it, to prove to those demons coming at her that ''I'm still a god I can break you into pieces even though I'm not what I was''

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