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  • Ethics, Power and Rights.

    A new thread for this new topic after some posts in another topic.

    Originally posted by Michael View Post
    Vampmogs,

    I don't claim to understand Angel, because I don't think he understands himself. In fact I don't think there is a stable "self" that can be understood at present. If you were to peer into the spiritual center of Angel I think you would see a kind of quantum fog, and if you were peer into the fog I think you would see different faces, some begging, some threatening, some looking oddly peaceful. If you were to say that Angel's basic struggle is for self-definition I would agree.

    Buffy was not a moral anarchist at that time. She was upset by the accidental killing of Finch. She went into a police station to confess when she thought she had killed a girl.

    Vampires and demons,on the other hand, are predators who have no legal existence. They have no rights, anyone can kill them. That does not apply to crooked lawyers, however.
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    Just a question ... I know that this isn't the place.

    Why do demons have no right to exist? Because they are green? Because they have horns? There is already explained that the demons were there far before the humans came, the big powers in the world are demons (PTB, W&H) ... why do the humans have more rights?

    And why do evil lawyers who kill people for money and try to plan the end of the world have more right to live than Lorne who loves to sing, Angel, incl. human soul, who is saving people and the world or Doyle who was ready to die for innocents?
    Originally posted by kana View Post
    There are no inherent rights, it's a matter of the strongest will survive and it's up to individual demons and humans to decide whether the consider giving the 'other species' rights. In Pylea, demons had rights and humans didn't. Cordelia's consitution speech ain't gonna cut it there. I'm cool with giving demons rights but I'd be honest about being biased towards my species. I wouldn't say we have anymore rights than vampires but I'd rather they be dusted if they are going to start munching on us. If not (like Harmony at least for a year) I don't mind her existence.
    Originally posted by Nina View Post
    Of course, I hope that the evil demons won't control the world as well. But are we sure that the humans have the power? We know that this is the era of the humans ... but we also know that the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart have lots of power, the same for the Powers that be ... isn't the power of the humans an illusion? What if one of the Old One's returns with full power and an army ... or all the old one's? What about the First who is still out there somewhere. I don't only doubt that we can say that humans have more right to live than demons ... but also, isn't the era of the humans fake? Aren't the humans just puppets? Isn't that what Angel is fighting for, to free the people? For free will?
    Originally posted by sueworld View Post
    Originally posted by Michael
    Vampires and demons,on the other hand, are predators who have no legal existence. They have no rights, anyone can kill them. That does not apply to crooked lawyers, however.
    Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. So you view Angel as less then an animal then?
    Originally posted by Michael View Post
    Since Angel has a soul, I assume he should be considered half human, or three quarters. He is not living off the blood from human prey, which is the main point, I would say. A more basic question is this: Does he pay income tax?

    Vampires and demons have no legal existence in human society, and therefore no legal rights. Whether that should be changed is another question, and it could be an interesting argument. Rights do not exist in nature: they are created by society, and have no practical meaning outside society.

    Crooked lawyers,like all crooks, deserve to be tried and to go to prison if the charges against them can be proved.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Buffy kills demons, but not humans ... she uses the human ethics. Angel's world is less black and white and however he tries to uses those ethics, often he can't.

    My point is, why using the human ethics, when it aren't the humans who have the power. Why treating the demons like they are less than humans? Because they don't fit in the human world? We already know that there are demons and gods who have more power than the humans will ever have. Gods can play with your life like you are a puppet, The Wolf, Ram and Hart have so much followers, slaves, worshippers etc. that they can make or break the lifes of humans if they want to do so. There are so many powerful old one's that if a couple of them wake up again, the era of humans ends in no time. The world in the 'verse, isn't our world ... Angel fights in the last seasons for the right to control your own life, to make your own decisions ... that has a reason, Buffy doesn't see it ... but Angel does see the limits of the human world and beyond. He lost Cordelia because a goddess had a plan ... and used Cordelia for that, he lost Fred because Illyria planned her return etc. The humans aren't the ones who control the world, it are the demons and gods. So there is no reason to use the 'humans are better than demons' rule, because that doesn't fit in this world. Angel stands up for the humans and their free will, and that is noble and hopefull, but the chance that he wins and that the humans will be free and rule their own world is still a good dream. Angel fights for it, but he doesn't believe that it will ever happen:

    Originally posted by Angel in Power Play
    It's true. We're in a machine. That machine's gonna be here long after our bodies are dust. But the senior partners will always exist in one form or another because mankind is weak. We are weak. The powerful control everything... except our will to choose. Look, Lindsey's a pathetic halfwit, but he was right about one thing. Heroes don't accept the way the world is. The senior partners may be eternal, but we can make their existence painful.
    We're in a machine. The Black Thorn runs it. We can bring their gears to a grinding halt, even if it's just for a moment. We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to. They will do everything in their power to destroy us. So...I need you to be sure. Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote. As a team. Think about what I'm asking you to do, think about what I'm asking you to give.
    So, my question again ... why using the human ethics ... why treating the humans better than the demons? Why do evil human lawyers deserve it more to live than the good and/or innocent demons?
    Last edited by Nina; 11-04-08, 06:28 PM.

  • #2
    I find it hard to answer that question. In BtVS, basically all the demons want to kill humans, on the other hand, in Angel, demons want to be treated as beings and no monsters, they have jobs, girlfriends and all.
    So it's a tough question.
    First of all, about evil lawyers, there shouldn't even be a debate, they're human beings, they have the right to be judged by the human laws and not being killed like animals.
    About demons, it depends of their nature but I tend to agree with Michael:
    Vampires and demons,on the other hand, are predators who have no legal existence. They have no rights, anyone can kill them.
    I'm one of those who think animals shouldn't have rights, so neither should demons. Why? Because humans are the dominant species and they have absolut rights on every other species on earth as it's always been and will always be. It's nature...more than nature, it's survival instinct.
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    • #3
      Well I mentioned before about the rights being constructed by the most powerful beings. Demon are singularly more powerful than humans but Illyria observed that humans are in control of this world (due to 'sneakiness') and therefore they make up the rules (just as demons in Pylea make up the rules. In the greater scheme of things? Old one's don't seem so plentiful in this dimension. They may be controling the world remotely (like the SPs) but we have little evidence of this. At the very least on this level of existence humans are at least on par with demons if not more powerful in terms of what control they have. Lindsay even implied that humans drop kicked the some of the demons out of this dimension.

      In regards to the demons who don't seem to human friendly, Buffy and Angel seem to want to protect innocent humans from them. Like I said in another thread, this isn't the same as judging them, but more killing them to protect our interests.

      Clearly Angel has an issue with the slavery of demons and AI don't agree with harming demons who don't harm humans. So it seems that as long as demons can live amongst humans or leave them alone, they don't have to be dealt with.

      The human world has ways of dealing with humans but of there are supernaturally enhanced humans and humans who can get away with their heinous crimes. Angel has to figure if in his battle he is really winning or what he's fighting for is worthy or noble. In allowing the deaths he's letting his darkness reign and W&H are winning. Unfortunately there are no direct guidlines. Angel et al, akin themselves to humans because they are or at least have human souls. They reconcile their feelings with those of their species or their former species. It doesn't mean they are prejudice against demons but like Giles said, human nature is more complex killing anyone who pisses you off leads you in a dangerous direction, more so anyway.

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      • #4
        He lost Cordelia because a goddes had a plan ... and used Cordelia for that, he lost Fred because Illyria planned her return etc. The humans aren't the ones who control the world, it are the demons and gods. So there is no reason to use the 'humans are better than demons' rule, because that doesn't fit in this world.
        Well, other than Jasmine, Glory, and Illyria, we really haven't seen the gods interact much with "our" world. If they wanted to, I'm sure they could easily take over the world. Jasmine nearly does so, and she's only one goddess. If all of them tried together, I'm sure they could easily defeat the humans and turn the earth into a demon world again. However, this doesn't happen, for many reasons. Firstly, most of these gods seem to have their own home dimension, and so wouldn't bother with earth. Or, they don't want to bother competing against one another. Also, I don't think the PTB would allow it--to me, they've always seemed to be a protector of mankind, and I think that they would step in to make sure that no one god could come in and rule earth.

        So that leaves the earth in the hands of the humans. Since they're the ones in power, the majority of the time, it's going to be their laws that apply. More specifically, it's the Slayer's laws that apply, since she's the one in power and the one who gets to dole out the punishments. Michael's right when he says that there are no such things as rights; these are given by society. So in demon relations, if there are no predetermined rules or rights given to each party, it's really a matter of who has more power. Since that's most times the Slayer, she sets the rules for how demons are treated. Since Buffy has been raised in American society, she follows the idea that "all men are created equal, endowed certain unalienable rights..." etc. She follow the human laws, and that's why she doesn't kill people-- she thinks it's wrong. But that's her choice. In the demon world, I don't believe that she has to follow human laws. If she decided that she would no longer grant humans their rights, then those rights no longer exist in her world.

        One of the exchanges I find interesting is from "Blind Date":
        ANGEL:I have no place in their world at all.
        WESLEY: Angel.
        ANGEL: How am I expected to do battle if I can't even get into the ring?
        WESLEY: You have a place, Angel. Our battle will be fought elsewhere.

        Angel says that he doesn't belong in a world with rights and laws. And he really doesn't-- but I don't think this is because he himself is a demon, but because of the nature of his work. Buffy is the same way. They both deal out punishments as they see fit and really, "unalienable rights" have nothing to do with it. They don't see the demons as having any such rights, and if the ones in control don't acknowledge that, then said rights really don't exist. If they do decide to spare the life of a demon, it's not because they decide that the demon has the right to exist, but rather that by their own standards, he doesn't deserve to die. And as far as their treatment of humans goes-- I think that as soon as a human sets foot in the "demon world", they are subjecting themselves to demon laws, by which I mean there are no laws. Whoever's more powerful sets the standards. Buffy says it herself: "I am the Slayer. I am the law." Now, if all of the demons were somehow able to sit down and hammer out a Constitution and somehow enforce it, then this would be different.

        Of course, this argument doesn't really consider morals and ethics. But looking at "No Future For You":
        WILLOW: Not killing humans is what separates us from the bad guys.
        BUFFY: No, not being bad is what separates us from the bad guys.

        I agree completely with Buffy here-- I think that the series has come way past the black-and-white, human-and-demon mythology that it started out with. Really, in Buffy's world, the same "laws" that apply to humans should apply to demons-- and that's basically whether or not, in a Court of Buffy, you're found good or evil.
        The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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        • #5
          Great posts all, I'm not sure if I'm there yet because I've trouble with using our human laws in a world with beautiful demons like Groo and Lorne. But really good posts.

          New questions ...
          There are now 2000 slayers, where Buffy (and Faith) had Angel to learn her to make a difference between good and evil and not between human and demon, the most of the other slayers don't know that. There is a big chance that those girls kill everything what isn't human. So the new standard will be; kill everything that isn't human. Which is against the ideas of Angel and his team. Is it possible that there will be a fight between demons and humans, and won't that end in a victory for evil?

          Do you think that the big powers will do anything about this new army?

          And are Groo, Spike, Connor etc. aloud to kill slayers to protect innocents or themselves? And if a slayer kills one of them, will she be she be on the good side or the evil side?

          And the last one:
          Do you think that the empowerment spell is a good thing if you look at the big picture? So, do you think that there will be consequences, and who is going to pay? By example, the PTB protect the balance between good and evil, with 2000 new warriors on the 'good' side ... would they aloud that the slayers will kill 2000 demonwarriors who are fighting for the good side? And is it worth it, deserve those girls their powers more than the demons their lives?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
            Why? Because humans are the dominant species and they have absolut rights on every other species on earth as it's always been and will always be.
            Well according to Buffyverse mythology demons were actually here first, so in this case humans haven't always been the dominant species. In fact, even in the real world we haven't always been the dominant species, natural selection wiped out the dinosaurs, not us.

            If we're going to determine who should hold the rights and the power based on who was dominant first, we'd have to hand over that power to demons, as Illyria states human's only took over this world through sneakiness, not power. And even then it's not black and white, as both Angel and Lindsey come to realise, the demons hold great power over this world even if we don't realise it, demons like The Circle of the Blackthorn and The Senior Partners are responsible for a great deal of things that happen, as are the Powers That Be.

            Generally, I think it's hard to place human laws and rules to demons, because they aren't human so therefore, why do we hold them to our rules and customs? Demons like Angel and Spike, Lorne and Groo... they're far better than many human beings out there, I'd find it hard to be convinced by any argument they don't have as much right to live as some human mass murderer rotting in prison right now.

            I agree with holding humans to human laws, as Buffy says the human world as their own rules for dealing with people like them. But that only holds for so long, inevitably they are humans who dabble in the demon world and who can't be obtained and brought to justice by human laws. Characters like Faith and Willow couldn't be held in prison against their will, we saw how easily Willow broke into the Sunnydale jail, and we saw how easily Faith broke out of prison in s4 of Ats. So therefore, in my opinion those humans are placed under Buffy's jurisdiction, under Angel's jurisdiction.. heck under anyone's jurisdiction who's out there saving the world from evil supernatural forces.

            So that's how I see it, but I really don't like the idea that we as humans have more right to love than even an individual like Angel, who may be a vampire, but has a soul and humanity in him, who's a good person who's saved a lot of people's lives and changed a lot of people's outlook on life. I've even heard arguments suggesting Faith should not have been killed to save Angel's life, because he's a vampire and she's a human. The fact that what we on merely on the surface can hold such great importance is beyond me.

            Originally posted by Nina View Post
            [B]There are now 2000 slayers, where Buffy (and Faith) had Angel to learn her to make a difference between good and evil and not between human and demon, the most of the other slayers don't know that. There is a big chance that those girls kill everything what isn't human. So the new standard will be; kill everything that isn't human. Which is against the ideas of Angel and his team. Is it possible that there will be a fight between demons and humans, and won't that end in a victory for evil?
            I don't think Buffy's code of ethics will simply to be "kill everything that isn't human." Buffy herself has never been that black and white, she lets the demon go in 'Enemies' because he "doesn't fall into the dangerous threat of humanity category" whilst Faith is the one who says "demon's a demon." Buffy also allowed Clem to remain and associate with herself and others because he wasn't a bad guy, and Buffy was the one defending the fact that not all vampires and demons are evil to Riley, who viewed it in a very simplistic way. So if any slayer is adopting the "kill anything that's a demon approach" I don't think it will be a pratice taught by Buffy at all, but by their own choices.

            Really, I think any slayer and individual will learn sooner or later, one way or another, that it isn't that simplistic. Even Angel, who knew all about the grey areas, jumped a demon and killed him in 'Judgement,' learning after he was actually trying to help a woman, despite his appearence. It's unfortunate that it may result in that way, and it won't always, but I think slayer's will learn for themselves.

            Do you think that the big powers will do anything about this new army?
            It's doubtful.

            And are Groo, Spike, Connor etc. aloud to kill slayers to protect innocents or themselves? And if a slayer kills one of them, will she be she be on the good side or the evil side?
            Well it depends. If it's an act of self defence, if they're jumped whilst unprovoked and have to kill the slayers or be killed, then I wouldn't hold it against them. And if a slayer kills one of them, but wasn't aware that they were good then I view her like I did Angel in 'Judgement.' You can't blame them for not asking because it's quite rare it happens, and I wouldn't hold it against them. If they knew they had souls and were helping people and still tried to dust them, I'd view them as being on the side of evil or at least very morally grey.

            Do you think that the empowerment spell is a good thing if you look at the big picture?
            I don't think we know enough yet to determine wether it was a good thing or a bad thing. We've seen some bad apples like Gigi and Simone, but we've also seen a hell of a lot of good slayers fighting evil and saving the world, so I don't think either should cancel each other out. I'll have to wait until the end of season 8 before I can give my opinion on it.
            "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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            • #7
              Well according to Buffyverse mythology demons were actually here first, so in this case humans haven't always been the dominant species. In fact, even in the real world we haven't always been the dominant species, natural selection wiped out the dinosaurs, not us.
              Well, I never said humans always been the dominant species, I said they were now. That give them full control over the other species.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
                Well, I never said humans always been the dominant species, I said they were now. That give them full control over the other species.

                But in the Buffyverse mythology, it's not so clear who's more dominant now. As viewers we always assumed humans, as we were above and the demons were in the shadows, even the characters more or less assumed this. But by the end of Ats season 5, even Angel admits that he knows how much sway the demons have. Demonic organisations such as The Blackthorn ran everything, they controlled what happened on our plain, they didn't let things get better. One of the underlining messages of that season was that, as Angel puts it, humankind is ‘weak.’ It’s part of why Angel makes his final stand, to show the demons that they can’t control us, even if it means wiping us out in the end.
                "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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                • #9
                  I don't believe that the Buffy/Angelverse is really controlled from behind the scenes by demons or gods. I do accept that there are individually powerful entities like the Senior Partners or the Powers that Be or Illyria or Glory or whoever.. and they have their schemes and conspiracies and minions, and maybe they believe they control the world. But they don't, not really.

                  Humans are individually much less powerful than the True Demons or gods, of course... but we're 'sneaky'. What that means, I suspect, is that we use the demons' own power to defeat them. Set one against the other. Exploit their urges for our own ends. The creation of the Slayer is the obvious example... here's a human empowered by the heart of a demon, given demonic strength to destroy and slay... but using it to slay other demons. Chipped Spike would be another good example.

                  Even the Wolf, Ram and Hart... sure, they think they're in charge, they have their Black Thorn... but their Home Office isn't some other dimension, it's right here on Earth, which is controlled by humans. It's clear that W&H is a very human evil, dedicated to preserving human society (in a dark, evil form - not all humans are on the side of good) rather than hand Earth over to the demons. I suspect that the Senior Partners have been subverted or co-opted by the very humans they sought to control.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                    Humans are individually much less powerful than the True Demons or gods, of course... but we're 'sneaky'. What that means, I suspect, is that we use the demons' own power to defeat them. Set one against the other. Exploit their urges for our own ends.
                    Yes but remember Gunn's speech to Anne in 'Not Fade Away' how the Circle of the Blackthorn will never let it get better down on our dimension, no matter how many people she helped. It's a lesson Angel learnt in 'Reprise' and was kind of touched upon in Buffy's story;

                    The creation of the Slayer is the obvious example... here's a human empowered by the heart of a demon, given demonic strength to destroy and slay... but using it to slay other demons. Chipped Spike would be another good example.
                    Remember when Joyce calls Buffy's slaying as "fruitless.' I don't agree with that, but Joyce does raise an interesting point. Buffy's been capable of changing the world, she and Willow did it in 'Chosen' however, as Joyce says, was Sunnydale ever running out of vampires? It's an ever ending war, and part of that is because of demonic organisations like The Circle of the Blackthorn, who's purpose it is to not let things get better on earth.

                    Even the Wolf, Ram and Hart... sure, they think they're in charge, they have their Black Thorn... but their Home Office isn't some other dimension, it's right here on Earth, which is controlled by humans.
                    The way I saw it the Black Thorn wasn't part of Wolfram and Hart. Wolfram and Hart had associations with the group, but it's members were made up of all individuals who weren't Wolfram and Hart employees, some merely used them for their services.
                    "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LaJaula View Post
                      So that leaves the earth in the hands of the humans. Since they're the ones in power, the majority of the time, it's going to be their laws that apply. More specifically, it's the Slayer's laws that apply, since she's the one in power and the one who gets to dole out the punishments. Michael's right when he says that there are no such things as rights; these are given by society. So in demon relations, if there are no predetermined rules or rights given to each party, it's really a matter of who has more power. Since that's most times the Slayer, she sets the rules for how demons are treated. Since Buffy has been raised in American society, she follows the idea that "all men are created equal, endowed certain unalienable rights..." etc. She follow the human laws, and that's why she doesn't kill people-- she thinks it's wrong. But that's her choice. In the demon world, I don't believe that she has to follow human laws. If she decided that she would no longer grant humans their rights, then those rights no longer exist in her world.

                      One of the exchanges I find interesting is from "Blind Date":
                      ANGEL:I have no place in their world at all.
                      WESLEY: Angel.
                      ANGEL: How am I expected to do battle if I can't even get into the ring?
                      WESLEY: You have a place, Angel. Our battle will be fought elsewhere.

                      Angel says that he doesn't belong in a world with rights and laws. And he really doesn't-- but I don't think this is because he himself is a demon, but because of the nature of his work. Buffy is the same way. They both deal out punishments as they see fit and really, "unalienable rights" have nothing to do with it. They don't see the demons as having any such rights, and if the ones in control don't acknowledge that, then said rights really don't exist. If they do decide to spare the life of a demon, it's not because they decide that the demon has the right to exist, but rather that by their own standards, he doesn't deserve to die. And as far as their treatment of humans goes-- I think that as soon as a human sets foot in the "demon world", they are subjecting themselves to demon laws, by which I mean there are no laws. Whoever's more powerful sets the standards. Buffy says it herself: "I am the Slayer. I am the law." Now, if all of the demons were somehow able to sit down and hammer out a Constitution and somehow enforce it, then this would be different.

                      Of course, this argument doesn't really consider morals and ethics. But looking at "No Future For You":
                      WILLOW: Not killing humans is what separates us from the bad guys.
                      BUFFY: No, not being bad is what separates us from the bad guys.

                      I agree completely with Buffy here-- I think that the series has come way past the black-and-white, human-and-demon mythology that it started out with. Really, in Buffy's world, the same "laws" that apply to humans should apply to demons-- and that's basically whether or not, in a Court of Buffy, you're found good or evil.
                      Exactly. I don't find anything vague or unclear here. In the Buffyverse, Buffy's the judge, jury and executioner. And "Not being bad is what separates us from the bad guys." is clear as day to me. Evil is evil and needs to be addressed in the most effective way. Many times, that means the Slayer's way.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nina View Post
                        So, my question again ... why using the human ethics ... why treating the humans better than the demons? Why do evil human lawyers deserve it more to live than the good and/or innocent demons?
                        They shouldn't be treated any differently, but the evil humans are susceptible to human laws were as demons are not. If a human wants to kill someone or try and take over the world by force that is illegal. All you have to do is prove it without people thinking your a looney toon. It might seem easier to skip all of the legal stuff, but that is not the human way. The demons however do not apply to human law. Non evil demons/other creatures do not deserve to be mistreated.

                        Self defense on the otherhand I completely agree with, whether it's human or demon. In the buffy verse what isn't a life and death situation. That is usally how it plays when it's good verses evil.




                        Originally posted by Cinderela View Post
                        Exactly. I don't find anything vague or unclear here. In the Buffyverse, Buffy's the judge, jury and executioner. And "Not being bad is what separates us from the bad guys." is clear as day to me. Evil is evil and needs to be addressed in the most effective way. Many times, that means the Slayer's way.
                        Nicely said!
                        Last edited by Immortal; 24-04-08, 04:40 PM.

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                        • #13
                          I would put it simply. Relations between humans are governed by law. Relations between humans and demons are governed by power.

                          While this is so there can be no question of demons having "rights" within human society. As a matter of policy,however, and clemency and common sense, harmless demons can be tolerated and even befriended. Buffy has shown that she can be very broad minded indeed.

                          I remain curious about the character and motivation of the Watchers Council. Why did they only ever use one Slayer? If one Slayer could not be expected to change things, is it not worth asking whether the Watchers Council actually intended to change anything?

                          And if the Council was not there to change anything, what was it for? To me it seems obvious that the Council was aiming to maintain a balance of power with the demon world from which it expected to profit in some way we do not yet know about. Quentin Travers and other Council people are not remotely impressive in a moral or spiritual sense. They seem more like malevolent bureaucrats and buffoons.

                          I would not be at all surprised if, before the end, there turned out to be a connection between the Council and Wolfram & Hart.

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                          • #14
                            This is also something delicate to discuss. Because the show shows us that there are humans worse than most demons but still, killing a human is different than killing a demon and I respect Buffy for that. But I like grey areas like that. For me, that´s one of the problems in the Initiative. The Initiative operated in the belief that humans are good and deserve to be protected and demons, all demons deserve to be killed.
                            Did Willow do the right thing in killing Warren? Yeah, he is awful but did he deserve it? Because Willow, by doing it, crossed a line that is "forbidden" by humans.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael View Post
                              I would put it simply. Relations between humans are governed by law. Relations between humans and demons are governed by power.

                              While this is so there can be no question of demons having "rights" within human society. As a matter of policy,however, and clemency and common sense, harmless demons can be tolerated and even befriended. Buffy has shown that she can be very broad minded indeed.
                              But not all human evil can be brought to justice using human law. Human relations are also governed by power. Either elected (in a democracy) or *taken* (as in a dictatorship). The First was right about that much "It's about power." Communication depends on using a language *understood* by the listener. Unfortunately, sometimes this language is violence.

                              Originally posted by Michael View Post
                              I remain curious about the character and motivation of the Watchers Council. Why did they only ever use one Slayer? If one Slayer could not be expected to change things, is it not worth asking whether the Watchers Council actually intended to change anything?
                              The WC evolved from the original Shadow Men who *created* the First Slayer. Their purpose is to manage and *supposedly* control the Slayer. As we know, evolution is not always kind to institutions. Sometimes they evolve into malevolent bureaucrats with way, way too many red-tape laden layers. In the case of the WC, their evolution involved into keeping historical records regarding all forms of demons and magic.

                              I don't suppose it ever occurred to the WC that there *could* be more than one slayer!

                              Originally posted by Michael View Post
                              And if the Council was not there to change anything, what was it for? To me it seems obvious that the Council was aiming to maintain a balance of power with the demon world from which it expected to profit in some way we do not yet know about. Quentin Travers and other Council people are not remotely impressive in a moral or spiritual sense. They seem more like malevolent bureaucrats and buffoons.

                              I would not be at all surprised if, before the end, there turned out to be a connection between the Council and Wolfram & Hart.
                              I would think there would *have* to be a connection between the WC and W&H. The whole concept of *balance* has been prominent from the beginning in the Jossverse.
                              Last edited by Cinderela; 11-05-08, 05:01 PM.
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