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Who Does Willow Feel Competitive With?

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  • Who Does Willow Feel Competitive With?

    Same concept as the other threads. Check off who Willow felt competitive with.
    77
    Buffy
    14.29%
    11
    Xander
    2.60%
    2
    Giles
    10.39%
    8
    Cordelia
    11.69%
    9
    Anya
    14.29%
    11
    Oz
    2.60%
    2
    Tara
    6.49%
    5
    Kennedy
    1.30%
    1
    Aluwyn
    2.60%
    2
    Faith
    16.88%
    13
    Satsu
    3.90%
    3
    Dawn
    1.30%
    1
    Jenny
    1.30%
    1
    Jesse
    1.30%
    1
    Amy
    9.09%
    7
    Riley
    0.00%
    0
    Angel
    0.00%
    0
    Spike
    0.00%
    0

  • #2
    The only one Willow was ever competitive with was Faith in terms of each’s friendship with Buffy and who Buffy ‘preferred’ and that only lasted for perhaps months in BtVS S3.


    With Willow’s increasing magical powers by some time in BtVS S5, she simply considered herself more powerful than Buffy – she wasn’t actually competitive with Buffy in terms of abilities. Even academically, Willow was happy that Buffy outscored her on an essay.

    Comment


    • #3
      Willow definitely had a competitive edge with Buffy. Whilst she encouraged Buffy greatly in the academic field and was genuinely happy when Buffy did well, I do feel she felt some insecurity and competitiveness on the rare occasion when Buffy would beat her and overall preferred that she remained the brain of the gang. She prefers Buffy in the “sweet girl, not that bright” group. Also, she’s blatantly competitive with Buffy in Two to Go“Six years as a side man and now I get to be the Slayer”/ “I thought you were going to show me what a Slayer was?”

      I also get the sense that there may have been some competitiveness on Willow’s part in S8 when she found out Buffy had slept with Satsu. I think she was primarily concerned about Satsu’s well-being and on some level hurt that Buffy chose to experiment with someone other than her, but I do get the feeling she was thrown by Buffy’s sexual experimentation with another woman. That was very much Willow’s thing and I think it shook her a little.

      Willow felt competitive with Giles in S6 when (IMO) she mistook his concerns about her magic use as jealousy, insecurity or competitiveness of his own. She no doubt feels a great deal of competiveness when she’s eager to fight him in Grave and the language she uses when describing herself is all about her power and expertise as a Wiccan – “Well, buckle up Rupert because I’ve turned Pro.” By addressing him by his first name she’s also stepping up to the plate as someone more on his “level.”

      I do think Willow felt competitive with Faith in S3 and, as she says, had issues with Faith “sharing her people” but I mostly think its insecurity rather than Willow trying to compete with Faith. She’s willing to cede territory to Faith in Consequences when she feels Buffy is neglecting her and would rather give Buffy the cold shoulder than vie for her affections, which I’m glad for. I still picked Faith but I mostly think Willow looked down on Faith as someone who is a big “slut-bomb” and high school dropout. Aside from her brief closeness with Buffy and being Xander’s “first” I don’t feel Willow thinks she has to compete with Faith on a lot of other levels.

      I picked Cordy but again I’m not too sure. Initially she was very insecure and jealous about Cordy’s relationship with Xander and she admits to being jealous when she found out Buffy and Cordy were attending a party together in Reptile Boy, but competitive? Hm, not sure. I don’t feel there’s much evidence of Willow trying to compete with Cordy and whatever insecurities she does have about Cordy she overcomes rather quickly.

      Total competitiveness between Willow and Anya which comes to a head in Triangle. No doubt about it.

      I also picked Amy as whilst I do feel it mostly comes from Amy’s side, I do think there was an element of ‘my spells are better than yours’ between both of them during their showdown in The Long Way Home.
      "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

      Comment


      • #4
        Willow's an interesting case because I think she's competitive with most of her loved ones but she still very much wants them to do well and achieve big and beautiful things. Some of it is that Willow wants her friends to do well- she just wants to do *better*. Then at the same time, Willow can feel guilt and discomfort when she's at the top magically or like she's a bad friend by being well-adjusted in The Freshman or the uncomfortable way she occupies the Boss of Us title in Bargaining. Above all, Willow likes the *chase* of competitiveness.

        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
        Willow definitely had a competitive edge with Buffy. Whilst she encouraged Buffy greatly in the academic field and was genuinely happy when Buffy did well, I do feel she felt some insecurity and competitiveness on the rare occasion when Buffy would beat her and overall preferred that she remained the brain of the gang. She prefers Buffy in the “sweet girl, not that bright” group.
        I agree that Willow preferred that she was the brain of the gang but I couldn't disagree more that Willow preferred Buffy stayed in the "sweet girl, not bright group".

        I thought I put the incredibly annoying fanon that Willow was calling Buffy stupid with that line to bed (at least on this board) in my debate with TTB but apparently not. Willow was NOT calling Buffy a sweet but not bright girl. Right then, Willow was trying to shore up the confidence to take Buffy's directive to empower all of the slayers even though doing so went against Willow's own judgement about how she controls her powers and how the First may control her through her magic. It's pure sarcasm in the middle of a broader scene on how Willow has so much confidence in Buffy's judgment (and so little confidence in her own) that she'll do what Willow considers jumping off a bridge if Buffy told her too.

        And Willow doesn't want Buffy in a "sweet girl, not bright" group. Willow would really be wasting her time tutoring Buffy and cheering her on academically if that's what Willow wished. I agree that Willow wants to be smarter but she wants Buffy to be smart too.

        Willow felt competitive with Giles in S6 when (IMO) she mistook his concerns about her magic use as jealousy, insecurity or competitiveness of his own. She no doubt feels a great deal of competiveness when she’s eager to fight him in Grave and the language she uses when describing herself is all about her power and expertise as a Wiccan – “Well, buckle up Rupert because I’ve turned Pro.” By addressing him by his first name she’s also stepping up to the plate as someone more on his “level.”
        Willow wasn't just jealous in terms of being a poorly-written cartoon-character EVOL villain who wanted to torture and hurt Giles at the end of S6. Let's make sure Giles v. Willow competitiveness isn't reduced to "Willow is a villain".

        There was actually better written Giles v. Willow competitiveness early on. In Angel, Willow was a little competitive by measuring how much more research Giles got done against her. Willow occupies Giles's place as the research task-master complete with tea in The Dark Age like someone who had been been coveting that position. Her offering to help mentor Buffy through the Hitchiker problem with, "I know I'm not Giles" is a clear opening to compete with Giles as a mentorer of Buffy.

        I do think Willow felt competitive with Faith in S3 and, as she says, had issues with Faith “sharing her people” but I mostly think its insecurity rather than Willow trying to compete with Faith. She’s willing to cede territory to Faith in Consequences when she feels Buffy is neglecting her and would rather give Buffy the cold shoulder than vie for her affections, which I’m glad for. I still picked Faith but I mostly think Willow looked down on Faith as someone who is a big “slut-bomb” and high school dropout. Aside from her brief closeness with Buffy and being Xander’s “first” I don’t feel Willow thinks she has to compete with Faith on a lot of other levels.
        I don't think Willow's two comments about Faith's slutiness (one of which was to commiserate Buffy because Faith was going after Angel and of which was to ID Faith to Tara and SESSSSY BUT TRAMPY just may be my identifier to someone trying to find Faith, especially to a lesbian) and TOTAL OF ZERO comments on Faith's lack of education drove her opinion of Faith.

        Willow look down on Faith to the point that her crimes and lack of control and downward spiral make her someone who "belongs behind bars". However, Willow did find admirable stuff about Faith and that drove some of Willow's competitiveness. Willow does sum up Faith's downfall in Choices as particularly outrageous because Faith had such big things going for her- Faith was a slayer which Willow's always acted was the big, empowering beautiful thing that should command respect and Faith had enough appeal to instantly get friends like Buffy and admirers like Xander.

        I also picked Cordelia, Anya, Amy and Satsu pretty easily. I also picked Xander. I think Willow does compete a little bit for Buffy's affection and keeps jealous score with lines like, "You two are the two who are the two. I'm the other one".

        I don't know why so few people picked Tara. Like Buffy and academia, Willow helped and encouraged Tara with witchcraft and tried to make Tara feel like a great witch but Willow was competitive about wanting to be the greater witch. Plus, Willow admits to being competitive with Tara over surety in sexuality, adultness, magic in Tough Love.

        I got the impression that Willow competed with Jesse for Xander's best friendship. We immediately get a subtle indication that Willow was easily dropped and used when Xander asks Willow for more math tutoring, flatters and jokes with her but then drops her when he sees Jesse to talk about the hot new girl As Men Do while Willow is trying to be included by butting in with obvious lines like, "I heard someone was transferring". Plus, Willow's line that she and Xander haven't always been close to try to explain HyenaXander insulting her and dropping her as a friend always felt to me like Xander and Willow WERE best friends but Willow frequently felt ignored and put on a lower level than Jesse. It meshed that a part of Willow thought that Jesse was Xander's best friend- the funny, outgoing guy similar to Xander who's open enough to girl-watch with Xander while Willow was just a nerd that Xander kept around for answers and because he was too much a softie to cut her loose.

        I think Willow's a little competitive and jealous of how much attention Dawn gets as The Baby. My only real evidence is Dark!Willow yammerin' but I still picked it.

        I think I picked Oz. I do think that Willow felt a little competitive on who is the better, more generous SO when they were together. I think Oz's generosity and deep understanding of her even though Oz was coming from a much higher social strata made Willow feel a little inferior and she tried to overcompensate. And then, she's competitive about who grew the most and did the most valuable things with their lives when they reconnect in New Moon Rising and Retreat.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
          I thought I put the incredibly annoying fanon that Willow was calling Buffy stupid with that line to bed (at least on this board) in my debate with TTB but apparently not. Willow was NOT calling Buffy a sweet but not bright girl.
          With all due respect, it's not 'fanon' to take a character's words at face value. That is, in fact, what she says, and to Kennedy no less -- "Hey, I'm the first one to call her out when she's not making sense." People are free to interpret the line differently but there is no question that Willow did call Buffy a "sweet girl but not that bright."

          Right then, Willow was trying to shore up the confidence to take Buffy's directive to empower all of the slayers even though doing so went against Willow's own judgement about how she controls her powers and how the First may control her through her magic. It's pure sarcasm in the middle of a broader scene on how Willow has so much confidence in Buffy's judgment (and so little confidence in her own) that she'll do what Willow considers jumping off a bridge if Buffy told her too.
          I agree with some of this but at the same time this line has always felt like a 'hey, it's the finale episode of the show lets finally just say what we're feeling!' which obviously can't be what Willow is thinking as she doesn't know she exists inside the of a TV show, but it's definitely what I feel Joss was going for. It has always read to me as a fun call back/shout out to all of Willow's attempts to tutor Buffy over the years.

          And Willow doesn't want Buffy in a "sweet girl, not bright" group. Willow would really be wasting her time tutoring Buffy and cheering her on academically if that's what Willow wished. I agree that Willow wants to be smarter but she wants Buffy to be smart too.
          "Want" probably wasn't the right word to use but I do believe she meant what she said in Chosen.

          Willow wasn't just jealous in terms of being a poorly-written cartoon-character EVOL villain who wanted to torture and hurt Giles at the end of S6. Let's make sure Giles v. Willow competitiveness isn't reduced to "Willow is a villain".
          I never claimed Willow was jealous of Giles and I wasn't reducing her competitiveness with Giles as villainy, she just happened to be villainous in the episode when her competitiveness was most blatant

          There was actually better written Giles v. Willow competitiveness early on. In Angel, Willow was a little competitive by measuring how much more research Giles got done against her. Willow occupies Giles's place as the research task-master complete with tea in The Dark Age like someone who had been been coveting that position. Her offering to help mentor Buffy through the Hitchiker problem with, "I know I'm not Giles" is a clear opening to compete with Giles as a mentorer of Buffy.
          All signs of competitiveness for sure, but almost none as blatant as when she challenges Giles and suggests he buckles up because "she's turned Pro." All the examples you mentioned are just the lead up to when that competitiveness came to a head.

          I don't think Willow's two comments about Faith's slutiness (one of which was to commiserate Buffy because Faith was going after Angel and of which was to ID Faith to Tara and SESSSSY BUT TRAMPY just may be my identifier to someone trying to find Faith, especially to a lesbian) and TOTAL OF ZERO comments on Faith's lack of education drove her opinion of Faith.
          Oh, Willow totally felt Faith was slutty. Instead of consoling Buffy and trying to reassure her, Willow goes off on a tangent about how Faith's totally the kind of girl who'd sleep with her friend's boyfriend and that Faith's standards for a guy are just that he's breathing etc, leaving Buffy feeling even worse than she already did. It wasn't remotely a surprise that she calls her a "slut-bomb" to Tara and even less of a surprise that she'd find Faith's sexually assertive personality as "slutty" when she herself was concerned that merely making the first move on Oz would make her a slut in Phases.

          There are zero references to Willow and Faith's lack of an education but it's not hard to infer that Willow wouldn't feel remotely competitive with Faith in this area when Faith was a high school dropout whereas Willow excelled at academia.

          I think Willow's a little competitive and jealous of how much attention Dawn gets as The Baby. My only real evidence is Dark!Willow yammerin' but I still picked it.
          I thought she seemed totally fine with it in No Place Like Home when she pointed out to Buffy, who was jealous and competitive about it, that maybe it's what her mum needed right then.
          Last edited by vampmogs; 27-02-13, 08:48 AM.
          "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
            With all due respect, it's not 'fanon' to take a character's words at face value. That is, in fact, what she says, and to Kennedy no less -- "Hey, I'm the first one to call her out when she's not making sense." People are free to interpret the line differently but there is no question that Willow did call Buffy a "sweet girl but not that bright."
            I think it's fanon to take it seriously. It's only a two steps removed from taking Oz saying that Willow is a secret evil mastermind in Phases seriously. The point was so evidently sarcastic. AH delivers the line sarcastically like she doesn't mean it. Willow says the line in the context of a scene where Willow is confiding to her girlfriend that she really, really doesn't feel comfortable doing the slayer empowerment spell- which Willow is only doing because she so trusts Buffy's wisdom and judgement.

            Willow didn't say "Sweet girl, not that bright" line as a character judgement on Buffy's total intelligence. She said it sarcastically to take the air out of Kennedy's big declaration that Willow should have confidence in herself because Buffy has confidence in Willow. And it contradicts every other time when Willow WAS making a serious judgement on Buffy's intelligence and said or acted with total sincerity that Buffy is smart from Willow praising Buffy's intelligence to Willow following Buffy's orders and detective skills like Buffy is smart.

            In Becoming when Willow said that Buffy's not stupid and can learn this easily if she pays attention, Willow was speaking with complete sincerity and making a character-judgement on Buffy's ability to learn. In Chosen, AH delivered her lines sarcastically and it was the context of a line taking the air out of Kennedy's assertion that Willow deserves confidence in her ability to control magic because Buffy believes in her.

            I agree with some of this but at the same time this line has always felt like a 'hey, it's the finale episode of the show lets finally just say what we're feeling!' which obviously can't be what Willow is thinking as she doesn't know she exists inside the of a TV show, but it's definitely what I feel Joss was going for. It has always read to me as a fun call back/shout out to all of Willow's attempts to tutor Buffy over the years.
            It's not fun. I'm not having fun arguing with your assertion that Willow, of all people, who seemed to have the MOST faith in Buffy's intelligence and worked the hardest at trying to get Buffy to succeed in academia thought Buffy was stupid and wanted Buffy to be stupid.

            All signs of competitiveness for sure, but almost none as blatant as when she challenges Giles and suggests he buckles up because "she's turned Pro." All the examples you mentioned are just the lead up to when that competitiveness came to a head.
            OK. I just got the impression that you were citing that fight as the core instance of competitiveness. I was noting that the Giles/Willow competition had other shades other than the WILLOW SUX shade of the end of S6.

            There are zero references to Willow and Faith's lack of an education but it's not hard to infer that Willow wouldn't feel remotely competitive with Faith in this area when Faith was a high school dropout whereas Willow excelled at academia.
            It's unfair to ascribe unflattering feelings of superiority who hasn't demonstrated those feelings. It's like if I said that Buffy looked down on Quentin Travers for being ugly. Buffy never said that Quentin Travers was ugly but Buffy is a pretty girl so I'll just infer that Buffy looked down on Quentin Travers that way.

            Faith's drop-out-status never seemed to be relevant enough to Willow to mention it or deal with it. Willow interacted with Faith in the role of slayer, novelty interesting girl, threat to her relationship with Xander and Buffy, etc. None of those roles really put Faith dropping out in Willow's focus. I didn't see Willow really think about Faith's lack of education.

            Oh, Willow totally felt Faith was slutty. Instead of consoling Buffy and trying to reassure her, Willow goes off on a tangent about how Faith's totally the kind of girl who'd sleep with her friend's boyfriend and that Faith's standards for a guy are just that he's breathing etc, leaving Buffy feeling even worse than she already did. It wasn't remotely a surprise that she calls her a "slut-bomb" to Tara and even less of a surprise that she'd find Faith's sexually assertive personality as "slutty" when she herself was concerned that merely making the first move on Oz would make her a slut in Phases.
            I agree that Willow thought Faith was slutty. I just don't think that it guided Willow's impression of Faith so much that:

            I still picked Faith but I mostly think Willow looked down on Faith as someone who is a big “slut-bomb” and high school dropout.

            Willow thought Faith was slutty and mentioned it in conversations where Willow was somewhat prompted to consider Faith's sexuality (hearing that Faith is trying to get Angel to cheat, trying to describe Faith to Tara). Willow showed zero evidence of caring about Faith's education.

            However, Willow also admired Faith for being interesting and dynamic. Willow may have had a latent crush on Faith. Willow thinks being a slayer is a big, beautiful thing and a huge positive thing that Faith had going for her- but thinks that Faith tarnished it with her conduct. Willow thinks Faith had big draws in her vibrant, interesting personality and good looks to attract Buffy as a friend and Xander as a lover- which Willow judges Faith for throwing away.

            So, I disagree entirely that Willow mostly looked down on Faith enough to not care about competing with Faith. For the most part, Willow acted like Faith had a lot going for her and through Faith's good looks, slayer powers, competence at kicking ass, and interesting personality, Faith could have heavy competition Buffy-friendship-wise, Xander-wise, place-in-Scoobies-wise, fighting evil effectively-wise. However, Faith destroyed all of that for herself by being evil.

            BTW, bashing Faith, who is trying to seduce Angel away from Buffy, IS consoling Buffy. It's called "vilifying and grousing". Willow didn't pick that term out of nowhere. It's a standard trick to try to make a best friend feel better. In Enemies, Willow thought that she and Buffy would feel better gossiping about what a stank ho Faith is.
            Last edited by Dipstick; 27-02-13, 12:49 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              * Being competitive with someone means that one considers the other competition. When Willow was Dark Willow, Buffy wasn’t competition; therefore, Willow wasn’t competitive with Buffy.

              * Same with Giles. In terms of magical abilities, it can be argued she hasn’t been competitive with Giles since “Becoming Part II” (2.22).

              * Same with Amy: in BtVS S6 and after, Willow would consider herself more powerful than Amy.


              * The “Triangle” (5.11) was mostly about Willow thinking Anya may hurt Xander. I don’t consider there was actual competition with Anya.




              Dipstick

              Willow can feel guilt and discomfort when she's at the top magically
              This was only true in such times as the aftermath of “Wrecked” (6.10) and the aftermath of “Grave” (6.22). Once she ‘got past’ those things, she’s happy for her magic and very comfortable with it (perhaps to an extreme and unhealthy degree).

              the uncomfortable way she occupies the Boss of Us title in Bargaining.
              She was very comfortable.

              I agree that Willow preferred that she was the brain of the gang but I couldn't disagree more that Willow preferred Buffy stayed in the "sweet girl, not bright group".

              I thought I put the incredibly annoying fanon that Willow was calling Buffy stupid with that line to bed (at least on this board) in my debate with TTB but apparently not.
              I don’t even remember that debate. I agree with your posts in this thread on the subject.

              Comment

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