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Caveman Vs. Astronauts: Was it about what gives Spike and Angel power, respectively?

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  • Caveman Vs. Astronauts: Was it about what gives Spike and Angel power, respectively?

    This relates to the entire Buffyverse, so I put it in the General Section.



    Caveman Vs. Astronauts scene: it’s about innate power versus power vs. power one can only have by being part of a particular powerful organization: for Spike and Angel this would boil down to something like Spike’s killed two Slayers while Angel is currently head of the Wolfram and Hart Los Angeles branch.

    I just thought of this because it’s the first time I’ve actually analyzed it in the context as why were Angel and Spike actually arguing that subject to begin with. “Astronaut” is an interesting person to use in the argument. This isn’t about “smart guy”, “trained Special Forces guy”, or even “scientist”. Being an astronaut is only useful if one is part of a space program that can send that astronaut into space.

    At it’s core: a caveman doesn’t have any powerful organization around him. He beats others by simply being more powerful. He accomplishes things by having the tools necessary. Spike beat the Slayers by himself. Spike wiped out the Order of Aurielus and became the leader of the Sunnydale Underground because he was able to dust the Anointed One when others were afraid, or whatever, of the Anointed One. Spike got the Judge together and got the Gem of Amarra simply because of his personal power.

    Angel didn’t distinguish himself in such ways before AtS (the biggest thing he did is probably killing the Earshot demon, obviously something Spike could kill). And what happens in AtS? Angel suddenly has a powerful organization around him. He becomes a champion of the Powers That Be. He’s suddenly able to talk to Oracles and get those Oracles to do stuff for him, he’s able to go to hell dimensions, etc. And because Jasmine decides she needs the Fang Gang suddenly Cordelia is given powers that are helpful to Angel. Even with Lorne, the only reason Angel gets help from him is they are both connected to the Powers That Be. And in AtS s5, Angel’s power mostly comes from being the head of the Wolfram and Hart Los Angeles branch. A just corporeal again, slightly blood-drained Spike beats Angel for the Cup. Spike later informs Angel that Spike was rusty. Spike spars with a full-powered Illyria and possibly hurts her. And did Hamilton ever actually have a chance to dust Angel? Given that Wolfram and Hart wants Angel for their apocalypse, the answer is likely: no. And if it’s canon,
    Spoiler:
    in Hell-LA, Spike has power because of who he is. He gets Spider on his side; he has Illyria on his side because Illyria likes him. Over in AtS s5, it’s the same. And Illyria ONLY subordinates herself to Angel in AtS s5 because Angel is the head of the Wolfram and Hart Los Angeles branch. In Hell-LA, she subordinates herself to Spike because she likes Spike and wants to protect him. In Hell-LA, she offers to dust Angel. And after Hell-LA we never see her have any loyalty to Angel. In short, in Hell-LA, Spike has power because of who he is. Angel only has power in Hell-LA because (aside from the dragon somehow being on Angel’s side) because of Wolfram and Hart. The other Lords of Hell-LA and the demons and such in Hell-LA know they can’t actually dust Angel because Hell-LA only exists because of Angel. And even still, the only territory Angel’s manages to have in Hell-LA is the Wolfram and Hart offices. Spike manages to get the entire (310) area code. After Hell-LA, Spike gets the spaceship and becomes King of the Bugs because of who he is, he gets Willow to help him because of who he is (in AtS s5, Angel couldn’t get Willow’s help), and she allows Drusilla to live and help them and even put Drusilla in Mosaic all because of who Spike is.
    BtVS S8 is too obvious to even spend time discussing. In the post-BtVS S8 stuff,
    Spoiler:
    Spike is just as powerful as he was in BtVS S8 and Morgan seems would have been with him and made him even greater had Spike accepted her offer. Angel meanwhile only is undusted because Faith decided to take care of him. The only power Angel now has is what Faith allows him. And Faith is not really helping him for who he is than she’s helping him because of who she is and her misguided notion that her wanting to help kill around 35K people is somehow the equivalent to Angel wanting to destroy Earth and everyone and everything on and in it.


    So, Spike’s power comes from being Spike. Angel’s power came from
    Spoiler:
    Whistler wanting to use Angel for the Twilight thing.
    , the Powers That Be deciding they wanted Angel as their champion in Los Angeles, and Wolfram and Hart wanting to use Angel for their apocalypse. Angel’s power is not so much about Angel himself as what powerful organizations want to use Angel for.

    This could also apply to Buffy vs. the Watchers Council.

    Buffy being herself got Merrick to love her and die for her. Buffy herself got the Scoobies to love and be loyal to her. Buffy’s the reason Angel provided useful information to the Scoobies. Buffy’s the reason Willow became the most powerful witch ever. Buffy’s the reason Spike saves the world, got his soul back, etc. Buffy got the Watchers Council to subordinate themselves to her. Giles in
    Spoiler:
    BtVS S8 tries to have the ‘Council’ – meaning him – be more powerful than Buffy, but that failed
    And, like Buffy tells them in “Checkpoint” (5.14), without the Slayer the Council is pretty much useless. And this becomes fact in Fray . Also true is that without the Watchers Council, the individual Watcher would be just a smart person with knowledge of demons and such. And we see with Wesley in AtS that a Watcher without someone to Watch pretty much has no real job skills or talent.


    And, obviously, a full-powered Illyria (like the one in
    Spoiler:
    BtVS S9
    ) could have wiped out the entire Circle of the Black Thorn. Even in AtF, she probably
    Spoiler:
    mostly stayed to protect Spike. There really didn’t seem any reason why she couldn’t have left Hell-LA.



    Anyway, maybe Joss Whedon didn’t think of this stuff when he wrote the scene. But he could have and my consideration fits nicely for the entire Whedonverse. Really, Firefly was about that group against the Alliance and in Serenity that group managed to
    Spoiler:
    ‘take down’
    the Alliance. Cabin in the Woods : well,
    Spoiler:
    one guy’s decision dooms the world
    The Avengers has those funding and controlling SHIELD not have any real power over the situation and one guy being able to get back the most prized thing in the world and the guy everyone thinks is most responsible for all the damage and chaos. In a sense, The Avengers is the ultimate Caveman vs. Astronauts thing given what the Avengers were fighting.


    Back to Spike and Angel pre-1998:

    Angel and Darla ran away across continents from Holtz. Spike killed two Slayers. Angel in WWII only had power because he was used by the United States. Spike was selected by the Nazis because he was one of the most powerful vampires alive. And on the submarine, Spike’s the leader before Angel arrives and shows he seems to know what is going on. (That, and Spike still looked up to Angel.)

  • #2
    Come on, be honest and rename the thread to "100 reasons why Spike is so awesome while Angel sucks" because it's obvious what it's really about.

    Spike wiped out the Order of Aurielus and became the leader of the Sunnydale Underground
    No matter how many times you claim it, it's not true. The Sunnydale underground wasn't a gang with a defined leader. Even the vampire population didn't have only one leader, let alone all demons.

    And what happens in AtS? Angel suddenly has a powerful organization around him.
    So powerful that Angel and his friends were on their own pretty much all the time.

    Buffy herself got the Scoobies to love and be loyal to her.
    Funny you say that and conveniently don't mention that Angel had the loyalty of Wesley, Cordelia, Fred and Gunn.

    And we see with Wesley in AtS that a Watcher without someone to Watch pretty much has no real job skills or talent.
    Lol, what? Do you mean in terms of helping save people (where Wesley was terrific) or having a career in the mundane world? If the latter, I would imagine Wesley would find a job as a translator in microsecond. If anything he was ten times more useful without a Slayer around.

    Angel and Darla ran away across continents from Holtz. Spike killed two Slayers.
    Drusila was injured by a Prague mob, where was the almighty Spike then? And Spike got lucky both times against those Slayers. As much as you don't want to believe it combat isn't just a simple power comparison where the stronger combatant prevails every time.
    Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

    Comment


    • #3
      It was about cavemen (Illyria, ancient demons) versus astronauts (Angel and co. and all of their advanced resources and research). It's made as clear as can be in the show. Fred even says something like: "Cavemen win. Of course cavemen win."

      Comment


      • #4
        Wesley: Is this something we should all be discussing?
        Angel: No
        Wesley: It just… sounds a little serious.
        Angel: It was mostly…theoretical. We…
        Spike: We were just working out a b… Look, if cavemen and astronauts got into a fight, who would win?
        Wesley: You’ve been yelling at each other for forty minutes about this? ….. Do the astronauts have weapons?
        Angel and Spike: No!


        So this is what it’s all about - cavemen versus astronauts; or in other words, instinct versus intellect, antiquity versus modernity, savagery versus reason, body versus spirit, self-reliance versus teamwork, and superstition versus science. The list could go on. Angel clearly identifies with the astronaut and Spike with the caveman. It goes back to their core vampire personalities. For Angelus, killing was an art form it required thought and planning and reason. It raised him above the primitive; but Spike liked it against the odds, back against the wall, nothing but fists and fangs so relied on brute force and primal instinct.

        But take a closer look, take off the costumes and the coats and what have we got? Back at the very beginning Liam was a creature who lived for visceral pleasure and was driven by the need to satisfy his basic urges. It was a way of life that precluded him from forming meaningful connections and to misunderstand the intentions of his father. William on the other hand, was highly reasoned. Thought and words were his daily currency. When he professed his love to Cecily he did so with carefully considered, reasoned arguments. He walked in worlds the others couldn’t begin to imagine, the embodiment of a nineteenth century ‘astronaut’.

        But if we look again it is fairly plain that neither Angel nor Spike can claim membership to their chosen sect exclusively. Angel, who claims solidarity with the team-working ideals of the astronauts in reality struggles with the concept and continuously fights his own desire to be a solitary creature. Yes he surrounds himself with a team, he’s got a loyal following but he’s also notorious for acting alone, for side-stepping team involvement and for making high-handed decisions for the ‘good’ of others. Ironically, it is Spike, our devout ‘caveman’ who is really good at teamwork, despite frequent assertions that he ‘doesn't play well with others’. Time and time again we have seen him seek out a ‘team’ whether he be evil, chipped or souled; Spike can’t live without connections.

        So who is the caveman and who is the astronaut?

        That’s the point really; Angel and Spike may be arguing furiously for one side or the other but the truth is they, like everyone, are both caveman and astronaut. During the course of the episode you see each and every modern, rational, intelligent member of the team release their inner caveman and some point in proceedings, finishing of course with Fred, literally going from 'astronaut' to 'caveman'.

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting piece by stormwreath on this going back to 2007.

          Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
          Come on, be honest and rename the thread to "100 reasons why Spike is so awesome while Angel sucks" because it's obvious what it's really about.
          Ha! It does read that way doesn't it and as happy as I am to expound upon the wonder that is Spike this did read to be interpretation to substantiate opinion rather than a critical appreciation. Having said that...

          Drusila was injured by a Prague mob, where was the almighty Spike then? And Spike got lucky both times against those Slayers.
          a) managing to get himself and Dru out undusted.
          b) whilst that is to a degree true as Spike basically explains himself in FFL, Spike is a wily/accomplished fighter and I think is fair to say that it is pretty established that he took on both Nikki and Buffy by analysing/testing them, that he was a 'beyond the norm' threat due to his desire to find and beat slayers and that having killed two is accepted as fully capable of doing so. I don't think you can describe it simply as luck in a way that dismisses it as having any significance.

          As much as you don't want to believe it combat isn't just a simple power comparison where the stronger combatant prevails every time.
          Hence Spike being willing and able to face multiple slayers and win/survive being relevant to his fighting tactics/ability and not his physical strength necessarily.

          Comment


          • #6
            I would say a strong element of luck played into his win against Xin Rong. She had him pinned to the wall and would have staked him had it not been for the unfortunate explosion outside. Less so for Nikki Wood, who benefited from her own luck when Robin knocked over the trash can and distracted Spike as he went in to bite her.

            Spike is more formidable than your average vampire but was a victim of his own hubris in Damage. It was a combination of his own ego and underestimating Dana that resulted in her very nearly killing him. Had it not been for Angel arriving when he did Dana would have cleaved Spike's head right off.

            PS: Angel saved Spike's life twice in AtS S5. First in Damage and then again in Time Bomb. I imagine much to the annoyance of MikeB

            I agree with Jack Shaftoe that combat isn't about a simple power balance. It's also incredibly flawed when people use such arguments as "Kendra beat Angel but Drusilla beat Kendra, so there's no way Angel could defeat Drusilla in a fight." It doesn't work that way. If it did, Spike wouldn't have been bested by a mentally impaired Slayer like Dana but won against a lucid and sane Nikki Wood. Not only can fights go either way but circumstances can be different (Kendra caught Angel off guard and pretty much had him on the ropes from that moment on), and certain fighting styles might simply work to the advantage or disadvantage of certain opponents.

            In regards to Holtz, Darla and Angel prolonged that for their own benefit too. When Holtz is torturing Angel in Rome Darla comes to his rescue and shoots Holtz with a flaming crossbow. Angel suggests to Darla that they kill him but Darla declines because "it's so much more fun ruining his life. He's practically like family now." They had no interest in killing the man.
            Last edited by vampmogs; 21-12-12, 10:53 AM.
            "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
              I would say a strong element of luck played into his win against Xin Rong. She had him pinned to the wall and would have staked him had it not been for the unfortunate explosion outside.
              I agree. Although I would say part and parcel of a battle is often rolling with whatever is going on, noises/distractions etc become part of the environment you are fighting in and dealing with it a part of the skill of the fighter (another non power element as we have been saying). In that case though, an external factor went against her beyond her control and Spike did what probably occurs with most slayer deaths, he took advantage. It is the principle essentially of what he says in FFL when a slayer loses her edge for whatever reason so it plays in favour of the vamp/demon.

              Less so for Nikki Wood, who benefited from her own luck when Robin knocked over the trash can and distracted Spike as he went in to bite her.
              Perhaps this can be another bit of personal canon. In that because of his awareness/analysis of why he won against Xin Rong Spike started looking for the tactical advantage more to spot his opportunities and that is why he observed and tested further slayers (possibly the intended reason for his first fight with Nikki that we saw and as was blatantly shown with Buffy).

              Spike is more formidable than your average vampire but was a victim of his own hubris in Damage. It was a combination of his own ego and underestimating Dana that resulted in her very nearly killing him.
              Probably the Spike's equivalent of the slayer's death wish weakness, complacency born of arrogance.

              Not only can fights go either way but circumstances can be different (Kendra caught Angel off guard and pretty much had him on the ropes from that moment on), and certain fighting styles might simply work to the advantage or disadvantage of certain opponents.
              Completely agree which is why Spike is normally tactical and wily in his fights, to gain as much advantage as he can when opportunities arise (a need he forgot with Dana as he expected to win).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                I agree. Although I would say part and parcel of a battle is often rolling with whatever is going on, noises/distractions etc become part of the environment you are fighting in and dealing with it a part of the skill of the fighter (another non power element as we have been saying).
                Fair point. Although, to be fair to poor Xin Rong, I don't think anybody could have done much different under those circumstances because the explosion would have caught anybody off guard. It's a natural instinct to duck or move if an explosion like that spontaneously comes at you

                In that case though, an external factor went against her beyond her control and Spike did what probably occurs with most slayer deaths, he took advantage. It is the principle essentially of what he says in FFL when a slayer loses her edge for whatever reason so it plays in favour of the vamp/demon.
                Yup! As he says – "It's not about the moves, luv"/ "It's not about the punches you can throw or the kicks you can land." Being a skilled fighter certainly helps but it is not a guarantee you'll win. Buffy was in "the best physical shape of her life" when was batting around the vampire like a cat's play thing, until she slipped up. And then she nearly died by the hand of an opponent far inferior to her.

                Perhaps this can be another bit of personal canon. In that because of his awareness/analysis of why he won against Xin Rong Spike started looking for the tactical advantage more to spot his opportunities and that is why he observed and tested further slayers (possibly the intended reason for his first fight with Nikki that we saw and as was blatantly shown with Buffy).
                It definitely was blatantly shown with Buffy. In Schoolhard he uses that other vampire to test Buffy and watch her in action. Though, again he displays a certain level of arrogance, or at the very least impatience, by attacking her before the day of St Vigious (when their power was supposed to be greater) because he "couldn't wait."

                Funny thing about Schoolhard is that Spike lures Buffy out to test her but learns absolutely nothing from what he sees. Xander and Willow come to Buffy's aid and toss her the stake – yet Spike is completely surprised when Joyce hits him over the head and saves Buffy's life

                He's also shown studying video tapes of her which is one of the smartest things we ever saw a villain do. Still, as he remarks when watching the tapes, it's hard to prepare against a Slayer who is "resourceful" and excels at improvising because you can't possibly predict what she'll do.

                With Nikki I think it was partially about testing her out but also about "not wanting the fun to end so soon", as he says.

                Probably the Spike's equivalent of the slayer's death wish weakness, complacency born of arrogance.
                Yep. I imagine it was also partially about sticking it to Angel because Angel wanted him to be cautious so of course Spike had to do the opposite!

                Completely agree which is why Spike is normally tactical and wily in his fights, to gain as much advantage as he can when opportunities arise (a need he forgot with Dana as he expected to win).
                Also, full credit for Spike for his expertise in martial arts. Vampires come with inherent fighting abilities and I just believed Spike honed some of his skills but Time Bomb makes it explicit that Spike knows his stuff. When he's training with Illyria he's able to identify several different types of martial arts she uses in combat.

                Angel also trained in martial arts as well as meditation etc. It’s probably a big part of what made them more formidable than your average graveyard vamp.
                Last edited by vampmogs; 21-12-12, 12:00 PM.
                "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's nice to get to objectively discuss something about Spike that isn't really about whether he should be placed on a pedestal or staked!! I've never really thought before about how much that happens.

                  EDIT: As for School Hard, I'd not noticed that Willow/Xander helping with the stake provision was the first evidence of 'friends/family' helping Buffy out that Spike saw. He was never going to learn from that though, despite how unusual he says it is, because they wanted that moment with Joyce. It is one of those times that we have to simply accept the validity of something in a scene despite the huge unlikelihood of it occurring because that's how they wanted to write it to make a point, for comedy or whatever other reason it is really there for. Realistically, I think in the situation with Joyce, Spike would just have Jenny Calendar'd her neck rather than run off scweaming(!) from a human just because they played momma bear and looked all grrr with an axe!!
                  Last edited by Stoney; 22-12-12, 10:46 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe
                    Come on, be honest and rename the thread to "100 reasons why Spike is so awesome while Angel sucks" because it's obvious what it's really about.
                    Yes, that is absolutely what this thread should be titled. If I were a moderator, I would change the title because that's clearly what the purpose of the thread is here.

                    Originally posted by MikeB
                    Being an astronaut is only useful if one is part of a space program that can send that astronaut into space.
                    Yeah, screw all the intelligence and fitness requirements and years of dedication to become an astronaut. If you're not in space, that stuff doesn't mean squat.

                    At it’s core: a caveman doesn’t have any powerful organization around him. He beats others by simply being more powerful.
                    Physically, neanderthals were more powerful. Various forms of wildlife were physically more powerful than a single caveman. Cavemen thrived because of their superior intelligence. Their tribes and support groups were their "powerful organization", cavemen thrived by having others around them to help with hunting, raising children etc. A single caveman doesn't thrive by going off into the jungle on his own and simply overpowering everything he comes across.

                    Spike spars with a full-powered Illyria and possibly hurts her.
                    Yeah... I don't think so.

                    And did Hamilton ever actually have a chance to dust Angel? Given that Wolfram and Hart wants Angel for their apocalypse, the answer is likely: no.
                    Hamilton had Angel knocked out and he went for the stake. It's pretty obvious that Hamilton was going to kill Angel.

                    in Hell-LA, Spike has power because of who he is. He gets Spider on his side; he has Illyria on his side
                    Didn't you criticize Angel and say that he only had power because he had an organization around him? How is this any different? Spike had Illyria and the Spikettes around him, so the power comes from Spike. Angel had the fang gang, then W&H, then the Twilight organization, then Faith around him, but because Angel relies on other people it's not "real" power. Double standard much?

                    Over in AtS s5, it’s the same. And Illyria ONLY subordinates herself to Angel in AtS s5 because Angel is the head of the Wolfram and Hart Los Angeles branch.
                    I think "subordinate" is too strong a word. She hangs around because she's alone and wants to find a place in the world. She's got residual feelings for Wesley, and possibly Spike, Gunn and Angel. It's possible that Angel gives her a paycheck when she does stuff for him (not that she really needs it). She wants to learn about the human world. She's got mutual goals with Angel when they both want to stamp out the Black Thorne. These are the reasons she continues to hang around Angel in season 5.

                    In Hell-LA, she subordinates herself to Spike because she likes Spike and wants to protect him.
                    She does not "subordinate" herself to Spike. They were both Lords of Beverly Hills, they were equals. Spike wanted to protect Illyria just as much as she wanted to protect him. He had feelings for Fred, so he didn't want the other Lords finding out about Illyria becoming vulnerable when she turned back into Fred because she could be hurt and killed in that form.

                    In Hell-LA, she offers to dust Angel.
                    At the end of the story she went berserk and tried to kill everyone.

                    And after Hell-LA we never see her have any loyalty to Angel.
                    The IDW ongoing exists in a grey area where it "might" be canon. If so, you're wrong on this count. Her relationship with Angel continues to be as "loyal" as Illyria is capable of being.

                    In short, in Hell-LA, Spike has power because of who he is. Angel only has power in Hell-LA because (aside from the dragon somehow being on Angel’s side) because of Wolfram and Hart.
                    Again, you insinuate that when Spike relies on the people around him it's a display of "real" power, but when Angel relies on the people around him it's not "real" power because he's relying on other. The dragon being on Angel's side was legit, he freed it from mind-control, so your use of the word "somehow" is out of place.

                    The other Lords of Hell-LA and the demons and such in Hell-LA know they can’t actually dust Angel because Hell-LA only exists because of Angel.
                    Okay, I'm being picky here, but technically Angel couldn't be "dusted" because he was human, the correct term would be "killed". And nobody knew for sure that killing Angel would restore LA. That wasn't discovered until the end of the story. If Angel knew that the whole time he'd have killed himself immediately, or Gunn/Spike/Illyria/Connor/Gwen/Nina would have killed him to restore LA.

                    And even still, the only territory Angel’s manages to have in Hell-LA is the Wolfram and Hart offices. Spike manages to get the entire (310) area code.
                    Was Angel even interested in securing a large territory? Was that a big priority for him? For the first few months in Hell-A Angel was healing after being crippled. After that, he was human (and hiding it) therefore the limits of what he was physically capable of doing were restricted. Then, instead of challenging Burge for Downtown LA, he challenges all the Lords for the entirety of LA. All of Angel's friends rush in to help him because of *who Angel is*, and from this point on things start looking up for the humans in LA. From here on Angel has the respect of all the people in LA and things are looking up until he has the confrontation with Gunn.

                    he gets Willow to help him because of who he is (in AtS s5, Angel couldn’t get Willow’s help), and she allows Drusilla to live and help them and even put Drusilla in Mosaic all because of who Spike is.
                    Angel couldn't get Willow's help during season 5 because she was in another dimension and none of the scoobies wanted to go near W&H. Spike would not have been able to get her help at that point either.

                    Buffy got the Watchers Council to subordinate themselves to her.
                    The Watcher's Council most certainly does not subordinate itself to Buffy. They forced Buffy to do the Cruciamentum, fired Giles for a while, fired Wesley, refused to help Angel when he was poisoned, tried to imprison Buffy in Faith's body, shot at Buffy and Faith in LA, interviewed all of Buffy's friends and made her jump through hoops until Buffy realized that she held all the chips with the Glory situation, then in the comics Giles and Andrew continue to withhold information from her and screw her around. Buffy bossed the Council around once in regards to Glory. But that was only because they wanted her to fight Glory anyway and it was in their best interests to give her information and resources. Buffy has never had the authority to march into the Council headquarters and start ordering people around.

                    And, obviously, a full-powered Illyria [...]could have wiped out the entire Circle of the Black Thorn.
                    If she knew who they were or even of the organization's existence, sure. I don't see what your point is here.

                    Even in AtF, she probably mostly stayed to protect Spike. There really didn’t seem any reason why she couldn’t have left Hell-LA.
                    Illyria's control over her powers in Hell-A were patchy at best. She kept turning back into Fred and bouncing around through time without her controlling it. W&H would have sealed off LA from the other dimensions, the Senior Partners controlled everything that came and went from LA. W&H were in charge of that dimension, I very much doubt Illyria could just leave if she decided to. If she could, why wouldn't she take Spike somewhere safer? Why would she stay there, she clearly didn't like all the suffering that was going on there.

                    The Avengers has those funding and controlling SHIELD not have any real power over the situation and one guy being able to get back the most prized thing in the world and the guy everyone thinks is most responsible for all the damage and chaos. In a sense, The Avengers is the ultimate Caveman vs. Astronauts thing given what the Avengers were fighting.
                    The Avengers was about everybody working together as a team. I've seen your posts in the Avengers thread (been meaning to write a response for months now) where you seem to think that Thor is the "one guy" who was able to get back the Tessarect and save the day all by himself. If you think Thor was able to do everything by himself without all those other useless Avengers you have missed the point of the movie, I give you an F, see me after class.

                    Angel and Darla ran away across continents from Holtz.
                    You keep bringing this up. Holtz was a badass. If the plot required it, Spike and Drusilla would have ran across continents from Holtz. No, I don't want to hear about how Spike and Dru would have and could have killed Holtz. Holtz was a tactician, he didn't just rush in and fight Angel or Spike one-on-one. Holtz was a danger for any vampire. Also its worth noting that Angelus and Darla didn't want to kill Holtz, they wanted him to continue mourning his family because they enjoyed ruining his life.

                    Spike killed two Slayers.
                    Angel was not interested in killing Slayers. When the situation called for it, he fought Buffy, Faith and Dana. But killing Slayers was not a priority for Angel.

                    Angel in WWII only had power because he was used by the United States. Spike was selected by the Nazis because he was one of the most powerful vampires alive.
                    Angel "only" had power because he was selected by the US, but Spike had power because he was selected by the Nazi's? Hey, at least Angel didn't find himself in that situation because he fell for a "free virgin blood party"...

                    And on the submarine, Spike’s the leader before Angel arrives and shows he seems to know what is going on. (That, and Spike still looked up to Angel.)
                    Uh, no. Spike, Nostroyev and the Prince of Lies all seem to be equals, the others don't look up to Spike. Nostroyev did not want to subordinate himself to Angel, he most certainly would not have subordinated himself to Spike. He even described Spike as a "weaker vampire".

                    And what's your explanation for Spike accepting Angel as the leader here? Doesn't Spike have "real power" whereas Angel only had "fake power" that came from the US government? Why didn't Spike just show Angel who's boss and bring him into line? Spike should have surely demanded all the information from Angel and then told the others how things are gonna be. Surely Spike would have been the boss of the submarine, right? Why would Spike swim out into the ocean at the end of the episode? I eagerly await your explanation for that one!

                    Originally posted by vampmogs
                    PS: Angel saved Spike's life twice in AtS S5. First in Damage and then again in Time Bomb. I imagine much to the annoyance of MikeB
                    Don't worry, Mike's got an explanation for that one too. In the first fight against Dana where Spike got tossed out the window, Spike didn't actually die therefore Dana didn't really win that fight. Hey, maybe Spike let Dana toss him out the window or something. Then in their second fight, Dana "cheated" by using the drugs on Spike, therefore Spike didn't really lose against Dana the second time either. Therefore, Dana has never beaten Spike in a fight. As for Angel saving Spike's life... supposedly the only reason Angel did this is because Andrew was around and Angel was afraid of what the scoobies might do if they learned that Angel didn't help Spike. I shit you not, these are the explanations I've read, I wish I were making this stuff up. As for Time Bomb, Mike seems to think that Spike was never in real danger due to Illyria's constant rewinds. I suppose eventually Spike would have saved himself or something.

                    It's also incredibly flawed when people use such arguments as "Kendra beat Angel but Drusilla beat Kendra, so there's no way Angel could defeat Drusilla in a fight." It doesn't work that way.
                    This.

                    Drusilla >Kendra >Angel is very flawed and simplistic reasoning. By that logic, I could say Riley >FFL newbie vampire >Buffy.
                    Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 24-12-12, 12:55 AM.

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                    • #11
                      * I’m not going to discuss Spike’s fights against Xin Rong and Nikki Wood because I consider that it’s implied that the scenes we see are what Spike told Buffy about those fights and not necessarily exactly what happened. For example, we learn from Dana in “Damage” (A 5.11) that Nikki did beg for her life. Spike was trying to teach Buffy how to survive a fight with a vampire. It boiled down to “A Slayer needs a weapon to kill a vampire, while a vampire already has fangs and such.” and “Don’t be depressed enough that you wouldn’t too much mind dying.”

                      * In “School Hard” (2.03), Spike didn’t run from Joyce. He left because Buffy now had her axe back. It’s also possible that Joyce looked too much like Anne Pratt (his mother) for him to try to kill her.




                      Jack Shaftoe

                      Come on, be honest and rename the thread to "100 reasons why Spike is so awesome while Angel sucks" because it's obvious what it's really about.


                      The Sunnydale underground wasn't a gang with a defined leader. Even the vampire population didn't have only one leader, let alone all demons.
                      This is a good point. We don’t really know much about the Sunnydale Underground.


                      * I never said that Angel in AtS s5 had absolute control over Wolfram and Hart. However, he was more powerful than he was previously and most of that power comes from being the CEO of Wolfram and Hart LA.

                      My quote: Buffy herself got the Scoobies to love and be loyal to her.

                      Funny you say that and conveniently don't mention that Angel had the loyalty of Wesley, Cordelia, Fred and Gunn.
                      Angel was paying his Fang Gang. I could expand further, but there’s no need. Also, aside from Cordy (eventually) and Connor (eventually), who in the Fang Gang loved Angel? After Fred realizes she can’t be with Angel, even her love for him seems to go away.

                      My quote: And we see with Wesley in AtS that a Watcher without someone to Watch pretty much has no real job skills or talent.

                      Lol, what? Do you mean in terms of helping save people (where Wesley was terrific) or having a career in the mundane world? If the latter, I would imagine Wesley would find a job as a translator in microsecond.
                      “Real job skills or talent” equal “career in the ‘real world’”. I don’t remember Wesley knowing other human languages, but, anyway, Wesley himself didn’t think he had any marketable talent.

                      My quote: Angel and Darla ran away across continents from Holtz. Spike killed two Slayers.

                      Drusila was injured by a Prague mob, where was the almighty Spike then?
                      See Tales of the Vampires : “Paint the Town Red”.

                      And Spike got lucky both times against those Slayers. As much as you don't want to believe it combat isn't just a simple power comparison where the stronger combatant prevails every time.
                      This is simply silly. I have a thread about how Buffy is stronger than Spike (and Angel). Spike killed two Slayers. There was no luck involved in his killing Nikki Wood. Luck being involved in killing the Chinese Slayer could be argued, what can’t be argued is that Angel was fearful of the Slayer.



                      Foyboy

                      It was about cavemen (Illyria, ancient demons) versus astronauts (Angel and co. and all of their advanced resources and research). It's made as clear as can be in the show. Fred even says something like: "Cavemen win. Of course cavemen win."
                      I’m speculating if there’s a broader meaning to the “Cavemen vs. Astronauts” thing than it only being about Illyria.



                      vampmogs

                      PS: Angel saved Spike's life twice in AtS S5. First in Damage and then again in Time Bomb. I imagine much to the annoyance of MikeB
                      “Time Bomb” (A 5.19) happened because Angel already knew what was going to happen and therefore how to prevent it from happening. Dana was shot with like three tranqs.

                      It's also incredibly flawed when people use such arguments as "Kendra beat Angel but Drusilla beat Kendra, so there's no way Angel could defeat Drusilla in a fight." It doesn't work that way. If it did, Spike wouldn't have been bested by a mentally impaired Slayer like Dana but won against a lucid and sane Nikki Wood.
                      Dana is not Nikki Wood. Dana beat Spike by poisoning him.

                      Not only can fights go either way but circumstances can be different (Kendra caught Angel off guard and pretty much had him on the ropes from that moment on),
                      Kendra got one hit on Angel when Angel was unaware. As a comparison, both Buffy and Kendra had punched Spike before he began his fight with Kendra.

                      and certain fighting styles might simply work to the advantage or disadvantage of certain opponents.
                      Huh? According to what?


                      * Angel and Darla not killing Holtz when they had a couple vampires with them and Holtz was the only man alive doesn’t discount in any way that they were running away across continents terrified of Holtz. If anything, their not killing Holtz when they could have is simply stupidity on their part.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                        * I’m not going to discuss Spike’s fights against Xin Rong and Nikki Wood because I consider that it’s implied that the scenes we see are what Spike told Buffy about those fights and not necessarily exactly what happened. For example, we learn from Dana in “Damage” (A 5.11) that Nikki did beg for her life. Spike was trying to teach Buffy how to survive a fight with a vampire. It boiled down to “A Slayer needs a weapon to kill a vampire, while a vampire already has fangs and such.” and “Don’t be depressed enough that you wouldn’t too much mind dying.”
                        It's generally accepted that what we saw in the flashbacks was literally what happened. I doubt Spike would want to tell Buffy about what a dork he was as a human. He even says "I've always been bad" and then the scene immediately cuts to William writing some dorky poetry. Do you think Spike would say that he's always been bad, then in the same breath tell her about his William days?

                        Also, I think when Buffy echos Cecily's line "you're beneath me", it was unintentional on Buffy's part. If she deliberately used that same line after hearing Spike's story, then that just makes Buffy kind of a mean bitch to deliberately choose those specific words knowing how Spike would be affected.

                        Why would Spike omit the details of Nikki begging for her life? Didn't you say in another thread that Spike never lies about his combat stories? Also, didn't you say that Spike choreographed his training session with Buffy to match his fight with Nikki? If the flashback isn't literally what happened, then Spike wasn't choreographing anything, he was telling a fake story to match Buffy's moves. That's much less impressive.

                        Spike doesn't speak Chinese. How would he remember (and add subtitles) to what Xin Rong said before she died if he didn't understand it?

                        * In “School Hard” (2.03), Spike didn’t run from Joyce. He left because Buffy now had her axe back. It’s also possible that Joyce looked too much like Anne Pratt (his mother) for him to try to kill her.
                        When School Hard was filmed, the writers had no idea what Spike's mother would look like. That did not factor into their decisions when writing that script at all. Also, Joyce had the axe, not Buffy.

                        The idea that Spike made a concious decision to spare Joyce because she looked like Anne is ridiculous.

                        Angel was paying his Fang Gang. I could expand further, but there’s no need. Also, aside from Cordy (eventually) and Connor (eventually), who in the Fang Gang loved Angel? After Fred realizes she can’t be with Angel, even her love for him seems to go away.
                        Yes, he was paying them but they were still his friends and they cared deeply about him. After Fred got over her crush on Angel she still cared about him just as much as any of the scoobies cared about Buffy.

                        “Time Bomb” (A 5.19) happened because Angel already knew what was going to happen and therefore how to prevent it from happening. Dana was shot with like three tranqs.
                        That doesn't take away from the fact that both times, Angel saved Spike's life. Angel was able to save Spike in Time Bomb because he had knowlege of how that event would go down. I don't see how that lessens the fact that Angel saved Spike. In Damage, Dana was only tranqed after Angel fought her one one one.

                        Dana is not Nikki Wood. Dana beat Spike by poisoning him.
                        She beat him the first time by tossing him out of a window. The second time she poisoned him by luring him into a trap and using her surroundings to her advantage. How is that not a win? In another thread you were praising Spike for leading Angel into a trap.

                        I love how quickly this thread devolved into how much Spike rocks and Angel sucks, instead of cavemen and astronauts...

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