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  • #16
    sherrilina

    Edit: Unless I state otherwise, I've read all the posts.


    To begin, I consider that all of Angel/Cordy in AtS could be because of Jasmine. And that Cordy has all of her powers because of Jasmine.


    As for the visions, by all logic they’d be better with Groo. However, the visions kept her close to Angel, which was part of Jasmine’s plan.

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    • #17
      I think the reason Angel didn't lose his soul when he slept with Darla & Nina is that he wasn't perfectly happy - when he slept with Darla he was pretty miserable and he didn't seem all that happy with life when he was with Nina. In "Awakening" Connor & Wesley apologized to Angel (as did Cordelia) and he also managed to kill The Beast and it was a combination of everything together that led him to lose his soul. Back when he was with Buffy he had no friends and no life of his own so his world revolved around her and that was it - that isn't really the case anymore.

      The first time I watched Buffy I liked her with Angel but once I re-watched the series I realized it was just a horrible relationship. It wasn't a mature relationship at all, it was very high school - which made sense because Buffy was 16, but it wasn't all that great it was very much a puppy love/first love type of thing where they were both just so blinded that it wasn't healthy.

      I did also feel like with Cordelia & Angel it was much more equal. When Angel was with Buffy he was always trying to protect her and make decisions for her - which he did not do with Cordelia.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Gemini9857 View Post
        The first time I watched Buffy I liked her with Angel but once I re-watched the series I realized it was just a horrible relationship. It wasn't a mature relationship at all, it was very high school - which made sense because Buffy was 16, but it wasn't all that great it was very much a puppy love/first love type of thing where they were both just so blinded that it wasn't healthy.

        I did also feel like with Cordelia & Angel it was much more equal. When Angel was with Buffy he was always trying to protect her and make decisions for her - which he did not do with Cordelia.
        Am I the only one who thinks that Bangel was a more equal relationship (or actually, in some ways, pro-woman) relationship than Cangel? Cordelia was far more subservient to Angel than Buffy ever was and Cordelia was a much more limited person than Buffy.

        Buffy has a whole wide world of family, friends, slaying, school and then applying to college when she was with Angel. Cordelia's world got smaller and smaller, the more she got involved with Angel. IMO, one of the reasons that Cordelia dropped acting is because no one in her life was encouraging her and Angel was outright dismissive and disapproving of her acting skills and the sacrifices you need to make to succeed in the biz.

        Angel disliked Xander; Buffy remained best friends with him without barely a second thought about what Angel might think of that. Meanwhile, Angel decided to shut out Wesley. Cordelia toed the line with barely a thought on whether she has a separate duty as a friend to Wesley.

        Angel abandoned Cordelia/Wesley/Gunn in late S2; Cordelia was won over by new clothes. Angel broke up with Buffy in late S3 and Buffy expressed her hurt feelings over that as late at the The Yoko Factor.

        Cordelia said more insulting, sarcastic things to Angel than Buffy ever did but Cordelia's sarcasm towards Angel was always belied by her subservient conduct.

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        • #19
          ^ I thanked both your posts, but that's because I think Gemini is right about Angel happiness thing and the immaturity of B/A (even though it wasn't as awful as some make it seem - it wasn't a great relationship either), but Dipstick is right about Cordelia's attitude to Angel, from season 3 at least. That's one of the ways that the writers dropped the ball on Cordy's development and the Cordy/Angel relationship in season 3, when they started portraying her as a Saintly Perfect Woman (or someone's idea of it) whose whole life is wrapped up around Angel.
          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
            ^ I thanked both your posts, but that's because I think Gemini is right about Angel happiness thing and the immaturity of B/A (even though it wasn't as awful as some make it seem - it wasn't a great relationship either), but Dipstick is right about Cordelia's attitude to Angel, from season 3 at least. That's one of the ways that the writers dropped the ball on Cordy's development and the Cordy/Angel relationship in season 3, when they started portraying her as a Saintly Perfect Woman (or someone's idea of it) whose whole life is wrapped up around Angel.
            Sure, TTB. I agree with Gemini too about the happiness thing. I'm always uncomfortable about labeling a relationship as "immature". I never really know what it means- especially on this show where unless its Jenny/Giles, the romance needs a little immaturity to be sympathetic and anything like a happy endgame. Contrast Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz, and Fred/Gunn in the immature category with Angel/Darla or Lilah/Wesley. However, I agree with more specific critiques about how Angel and Buffy frequently didn't understand each other and didn't make effective plans for fitting into each other's worlds.

            And big word about Cordelia, although, she started bugging me by mid-S2.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
              Dipstick is right about Cordelia's attitude to Angel, from season 3 at least. That's one of the ways that the writers dropped the ball on Cordy's development and the Cordy/Angel relationship in season 3, when they started portraying her as a Saintly Perfect Woman (or someone's idea of it) whose whole life is wrapped up around Angel.
              I agree, Cordelia's character development suffered in Season 3. If the Cordy/Angel relationship had been executed properly I think I would have liked it a lot more. I really disliked the way suddenly the friendships she had built with other people meant nothing (the way she only cared about Angel, and didn't even bother to hear what Wesley had to say about what happened while she was gone). For whatever reason the writers did decide to drop Cordy/Angel before they ever got together, which is a bit of a shame because even if they didn't last very long I'd liked to have seen it play out.

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              • #22
                All caught up




                Dipstick

                Am I the only one who thinks that Bangel was a more equal relationship (or actually, in some ways, pro-woman) relationship than Cangel?
                Well, I reason that Angel/Cordelia only existed because of Jasmine; otherwise, it makes around no sense. Even still, in reality it never existed because they never actually got together.

                Cordelia was far more subservient to Angel than Buffy ever was and Cordelia was a much more limited person than Buffy.
                That’s true: Angel was literally Cordelia’s boss. Essentially, it’s the clichéd boss going out with his secretary (yes, Cordelia’s title was Office Manager, but Donna Moss in The West Wing had far more responsibility than Cordelia ever had and Donna Moss was still Josh Lyman’s ‘secretary’.)

                Buffy has a whole wide world of family, friends, slaying, school and then applying to college when she was with Angel. Cordelia's world got smaller and smaller, the more she got involved with Angel.
                Cordy had friends outside of the Fang Gang. That eventually went away, sure. Cordy also slayed. Cordy went to acting gigs and auditioned.

                IMO, one of the reasons that Cordelia dropped acting is because no one in her life was encouraging her and Angel was outright dismissive and disapproving of her acting skills and the sacrifices you need to make to succeed in the biz.
                Cordy dropped acting because she’s a terrible actor and her biggest gig – that commercial – she was only hired for her looks and body. The director tells her so.

                Angel disliked Xander; Buffy remained best friends with him without barely a second thought about what Angel might think of that. Meanwhile, Angel decided to shut out Wesley. Cordelia toed the line with barely a thought on whether she has a separate duty as a friend to Wesley.
                That’s not fair because Buffy was friends with Xander before she even kissed Angel. And Angel was Cordelia’s boss and Cordy was never really good friends with Wesley on the level of Buffy’s friendship with Xander. Also, Xander never say tried to steal Dawn away from Buffy.

                Angel abandoned Cordelia/Wesley/Gunn in late S2; Cordelia was won over by new clothes. Angel broke up with Buffy in late S3 and Buffy expressed her hurt feelings over that as late at the The Yoko Factor.
                “The Yoko Factor” (4.20) was about his treatment of her in “Sanctuary” (A 1.19). In “Chosen” (7.22), she does bring up the breakup. Anyway, Buffy dated Parker, Riley, and Spike after BtVS S3. Angel had fired Cordelia, Wesley, and Gunn and he won Cordelia back by spending thousands of dollars on her. This is similar to in “Sanctuary” when Cordy takes a paid vacation instead of staying to help Angel deal with Faith. Essentially, in the real world this would be like having a ‘private settlement’ with him instead of suing him.

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