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  • #31
    Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    I would hardly name The Zeppo as an example of him 'seeing' the truth about the relationships within the group, when in fact it was a very skewed POV episode that was based on Xander's idea of what his role in the group was and what the interpersonal relationships within the group were, rather than on what they really were. At least that's the only reason to explain why everyone was suddenly so protective of him (treating him like a child) - which they never were before or after - and why he suddenly seemed like a total outsider in the group, while even Faith seemed to be its integral part.
    I agree that The Zeppo was interesting for, as Koos says, a view of how Xander is positioned in the group, often being outside the action, as overplayed as that was to illustrate the point in the episode. It is a great episode for the character but doesn't show him as insightful in regards to the others, just separate from some of the day-to-day action as he said in Potentials.

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    • #32
      The one who sees isn't only meaning to be insightful. It also means that he is in a position within the group that he can see. Xander is reasonable insightful and he is the right position and that combined makes him a person that sees.
      Last edited by Koos; 12-05-12, 03:42 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Koos View Post
        The one who sees isn't only meaning to be insightful. It also means that he is in a position within the group that he can see. Xander is reasonable insightful and he is the right position and that combined makes him a person that sees.
        Being in the right position to be able to observe doesn't mean that you do, it just means that you could. That is before you even get into whether what that person thinks they see is accurate. I waver on whether I see Xander as able to objectively observe well enough to be insightful with consistency.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
          Being in the right position to be able to observe doesn't mean that you do, it just means that you could. That is before you even get into whether what that person thinks they see is accurate. I waver on whether I see Xander as able to objectively observe well enough to be insightful with consistency.
          Xander is a very emotional character, he can rarely be objective, especially in the early seasons. I think he really gained his ability to see in S7 when he matured enough.
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          • #35
            Jack Shaftoe

            My contention is that while Xander may have simply been being derisive of Buffy during his “Did you meet any nice pimps.” comment, he could have actually been suggesting that Buffy prostituted herself. In any event, he said this comment: he didn’t say something like “Did you live in a crap hole?” or “Did you meet any nice drug dealers?”

            Xander: You know what I mean. She doesn't want to talk about it, we don't want to talk about it, so why don't we just shut up and dance?
            That was what the Scoobies – barring Giles – seemed to want to do anyway. Giles was obviously the more insightful in that episode.


            My quote: The Scoobies agreed with [Spike’s] assessment (regarding them in “Empty Places” (7.19) in their actions with Buffy).

            You were responding to stuff not related to what I stated.



            Koos

            And this was also referring back (literally I would say) to the Zeppo where he, in the background, saved them all.
            That’s another discussion.

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            • #36
              That was what the Scoobies – barring Giles – seemed to want to do anyway.
              So? You said no one suggested it. You were wrong.

              You were responding to stuff not related to what I stated.
              So basically what you are saying is that when Spike is claiming something it doesn't matter if we actually saw the opposite happen on screen? We should go with Spike because he is so much more trustworthy than our own eyes, is that it? Even when he didn't see the events he was talking about? Okay...
              Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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              • #37
                Jack Shaftoe

                My quote: My quote: The Scoobies agreed with [Spike’s] assessment (regarding them in “Empty Places” (7.19) in their actions with Buffy).

                So basically what you are saying is that when Spike is claiming something it doesn't matter if we actually saw the opposite happen on screen? We should go with Spike because he is so much more trustworthy than our own eyes, is that it? Even when he didn't see the events he was talking about? Okay...
                The best way to respond to this is simply repeat my quote: “The Scoobies agreed with [Spike’s] assessment (regarding them in “Empty Places” (7.19) in their actions with Buffy).”

                The Scoobies agreed with Spike’s assessment. That completely trumps any opinion that a poster may have on the subject. Also, Spike didn’t exactly need to be there. He knew that the Scoobies kicked Buffy out, that the Scoobies were ungrateful, that Giles wasn’t happy that Buffy didn’t need Giles anymore, and that Faith had always wanted to ‘be’ Buffy (meaning lead the Scoobies).

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
                  Xander is a very emotional character, he can rarely be objective, especially in the early seasons. I think he really gained his ability to see in S7 when he matured enough.
                  I think this rather condescends to the character. He showed many, many occasions of insight into the emotional states and emotional needs of others in those early seasons. You'll recall him telling Buffy (even though his face tells the story of the lie he feels when he says it) that Angel's tortures and gifts aren't from the guy she loved in "Phases". His insight was pretty literal when he tickled to Angel's demeanor in "Innocence", and that's just off the top of my head. Him "seeing" is not limited to just periods in which he was less opinionated and/or oppositional.

                  Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                  Jack Shaftoe

                  The best way to respond to this is simply repeat my quote: “The Scoobies agreed with [Spike’s] assessment (regarding them in “Empty Places” (7.19) in their actions with Buffy).”

                  The Scoobies agreed with Spike’s assessment. That completely trumps any opinion that a poster may have on the subject. Also, Spike didn’t exactly need to be there. He knew that the Scoobies kicked Buffy out, that the Scoobies were ungrateful, that Giles wasn’t happy that Buffy didn’t need Giles anymore, and that Faith had always wanted to ‘be’ Buffy (meaning lead the Scoobies).
                  I can't look at a transcript or shooting script or the recorded episode and lay a finger on where the Scoobies agreed with Spike, so... really doesn't mean anything at all to say that they did if it can't be supported textually or metatextually. Not for nothing, there's no direction for the actors to project any sort of guilt or otherwise indicate that Spike's words sound true, and I don't see it in their actual performance, either -- just the generic awkwardness. And they are indignant, which suggests they don't agree. And of course, Faith disagrees most pointedly by generally throwing Spike about. It's a nonsense claim.
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                  • #39
                    KingofCretins

                    Quote from Sosa lola : Xander is a very emotional character, he can rarely be objective, especially in the early seasons.

                    “Rarely” doesn’t mean “never”, so pointing out a few times that he was objective in the early Seaons doesn’t discount Sosa lola’s argument.


                    My quote: The Scoobies agreed with [Spike’s] assessment (regarding them in “Empty Places” (7.19) in their actions with Buffy).

                    This is true. They know that they kicked Buffy out for selfish reasons. None of them argues against Spike’s assessment. There’s no evidence that discounts what I said.

                    And they are indignant,
                    No, they aren’t. It’d be difficult to argue that even Faith was indignant.

                    And of course, Faith disagrees most pointedly by generally throwing Spike about.
                    First off, Spike won that 'fight' and it wasn't even a fight to Spike: he was trying to get info from Faith while Faith was trying to assert her authority. Secondly, Faith’s was trying to assert herself as the new leader of the Scoobies and obviously wasn't liking the idea of Spike telling the Scoobies that Buffy should still be their leader. Faith never disagreed with Spike about the reasons the Scoobies ousted Buffy.

                    Anyway, this thread isn’t about “Touched” (7.20) and I don’t remember how that subject even came up.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                      No, they aren’t. It’d be difficult to argue that even Faith was indignant.

                      First off, Spike won that 'fight' and it wasn't even a fight to Spike: he was trying to get info from Faith while Faith was trying to assert her authority. Secondly, Faith’s was trying to assert herself as the new leader of the Scoobies and obviously wasn't liking the idea of Spike telling the Scoobies that Buffy should still be their leader. Faith never disagreed with Spike about the reasons the Scoobies ousted Buffy.

                      Anyway, this thread isn’t about “Touched” (7.20) and I don’t remember how that subject even came up.
                      No, they were indignant. And, yes, Faith threw Spike about -- it was no more a serious fight to her than him. But she exerted her will. Look, I have little doubt you have some interpretation for how Spike could have beaten Illyria and Hamilton in a 2 on 1, so I am not interested in playing who would win with you -- you would pick Spike if I asked you who would win between Gunn and Riley.

                      As for how this came up, you brought it up because Vampmogs compared Xander and Spike having insight born of outsider status, and you were either uncomfortable with contextual limits being placed on Spike's awesomeness, or with a comparison to Xander that wasn't intended to make the puny human look bad, and brought up your colorful reading of "Touched" as an example.
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                      • #41
                        KingofCretins

                        [About Spike’s reprimanding of the Scoobies in “Touched” (7.20)] No, they were indignant.
                        Maybe you don’t know what that word means. The all agreed with Spike; therefore, it’s impossible that they were indignant.


                        * This isn’t a “Touched” (7.20) thread or a Spike vs. Faith thread but I had to respond to this:
                        Look, I have little doubt you have some interpretation for how Spike could have beaten Illyria and Hamilton in a 2 on 1, so I am not interested in playing who would win with you -- you would pick Spike if I asked you who would win between Gunn and Riley.
                        I’ve never called you out on your Xander hero-worship as evidence of why you’re incorrect. We aren’t supposed to accuse each other of being biased against or for certain characters or ‘ships. This isn’t supposed to be like IMBb from 2005-2008 or whenever.

                        It’s feeble to try to back up your argument that Faith beat Spike by saying that I think that Spike could have beaten up Illyria and Hamilton at the same time. If anything, it makes you seem anti-Spike and that’s the only reason you say that Faith beat Spike.

                        Anyway, I’ve never said such delusional things as Spike could have beaten Illyria and Hamilton at the same time. As for bringing Spike up for no reason, on this thread: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=15836, you brought up the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) Spike dream. In some other thread, in one of your posts you went on a Xander tangent that had nothing to do with the discussion. It was something like, “If I had my way, Xander would have done _______________” when we were talking about something else.

                        For the most part, I make a concerted effort to try to keep threads on-topic including editing out my responses to non-thread topic stuff and putting that stuff in another thread.

                        As for how this came up, you brought it up because Vampmogs compared Xander and Spike having insight born of outsider status, and you were either uncomfortable with contextual limits being placed on Spike's awesomeness, or with a comparison to Xander that wasn't intended to make the puny human look bad, and brought up your colorful reading of "Touched" as an example.
                        I don’t remember why it was brought up and I don’t want to bother to skim through the thread. Anyway, my point would have been something like Spike was actually an ‘outsider’ and Xander was an insider.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                          KingofCretins

                          Maybe you don’t know what that word means.
                          Vocabulary, among other subjects, is not something I come to you for, sir. "Like, ever" -- Taylor Swift.

                          Willow answering his "who do you think you are" with "we're her friends"; that's indignation. She is not bowing to his criticism or his self-appointed place to know what's best. None of them did.

                          * This isn’t a “Touched” (7.20) thread or a Spike vs. Faith thread but I had to respond to this: I’ve never called you out on your Xander hero-worship as evidence of why you’re incorrect. We aren’t supposed to accuse each other of being biased against or for certain characters or ‘ships. This isn’t supposed to be like IMBb from 2005-2008 or whenever.
                          When I start making up stuff like Xander standing outside casting a "Solves The Entire Episode's Conflict" spell without a shred of evidence, Xander being super rich, and Xander having every female character he's ever met in love with him forever, we'll have hero-worship as something worth talking about.

                          It’s feeble to try to back up your argument that Faith beat Spike by saying that I think that Spike could have beaten up Illyria and Hamilton at the same time. If anything, it makes you seem anti-Spike and that’s the only reason you say that Faith beat Spike.
                          I say Faith won because, bottom line, Faith got her way; Spike shut up and left.

                          For the most part, I make a concerted effort to try to keep threads on-topic including editing out my responses to non-thread topic stuff and putting that stuff in another thread.
                          This would only be true if every thread with Xander's name in the subject was a topic for bashing the hell out of the character and aggrandizing another.

                          I don’t remember why it was brought up and I don’t want to bother to skim through the thread. Anyway, my point would have been something like Spike was actually an ‘outsider’ and Xander was an insider.
                          Xander was an insider in terms of familiarity, sure, but the only context in which he is ever called an "outsider", the only context which pertains directly to (pace 41) "the vision thing", is that he is not scrutinized by enemy or ally alike for his epic contributions to the greater glory of virtue triumphing over vice, etc. He's the guy that spots the really important things that are the foundation of everything else; Dawn surrendering her starring role to Amanda being one example, but there are countless others. I'm fond, for instance, of him being the only one among Oz and Willow, even among Giles, to spot the moral horizon Buffy was walking toward with her intention to get Angel's cure from Faith and at least pointing it out to her -- that this decision might change who she is.
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                          • #43
                            KingofCretins

                            Vocabulary, among other subjects, is not something I come to you for, sir. "Like, ever" -- Taylor Swift.
                            Cute.

                            Willow answering his "who do you think you are" with "we're her friends"; that's indignation. She is not bowing to his criticism or his self-appointed place to know what's best. None of them did.
                            None of them told him that he’s wrong or out of place. Wood was quiet. Giles tried to pathetically defend his actions but when Spike tells him that Giles is simply upset that Buffy no longer needs Giles and that she’s surpassed him, he backs down and therefore concedes Spike’s point. There was zero indignation over Spike’s main points.

                            Not even Faith was indignant. She was simply trying to assert her position as leader. And Willow wasn’t indignant in your quote either. She wasn’t saying, “We were right to kick Buffy out” or “how dare you question that decision”. She wasn’t angry with Spike.

                            My quote: This isn’t a “Touched” (7.20) thread or a Spike vs. Faith thread but I had to respond to this: I’ve never called you out on your Xander hero-worship as evidence of why you’re incorrect. We aren’t supposed to accuse each other of being biased against or for certain characters or ‘ships. This isn’t supposed to be like IMBb from 2005-2008 or whenever.

                            When I start making up stuff like Xander standing outside casting a "Solves The Entire Episode's Conflict" spell without a shred of evidence, Xander being super rich, and Xander having every female character he's ever met in love with him forever, we'll have hero-worship as something worth talking about.
                            This is kinda all off topic stuff so I put my response in spoilers. Not sure if you are trying to say that I’ve said similar things about Spike…

                            Spoiler:
                            However, for the first one: until said otherwise, Xander did the spell in “Once More With Feeling” (6.07) and simply didn’t tell anyone about it until right before Sweet was going to send Dawn to hell with Sweet as Sweet’s bride. Xander didn’t even say anything when Buffy was literally dancing to death.

                            With Spike, I said that he could have done a spell to have Acathla only swallow the mansion or maybe all of Sunnydale. The evidence being otherwise it makes no sense that Spike would leave without defeating Angel. Really, it almost makes no sense why Spike would risk Buffy possibly losing so therefore if such a spell wasn’t in place he should have simply dusted Angel.

                            For the second one: Since first being on Boards in 2005, I’ve said that it’s possibly that Xander in BtVS S7 was a multi-millionaire. That wouldn’t be ‘made up’ because at-worst Xander was the contractor for the building of two projects that each would have cost $10s of millions. Already in BtVS S6, Xander’s like a foreman or something and therefore was probably already making 6-figures. I’ve commented on how unlikely someone can rise so fast so young, but that’s what is shown.

                            With Spike, I’ve simply speculated that he could easily have a ton of money by simply keeping a bunch of jewels, jewelry, etc. that he’s gotten over the years. Plus, he could somehow still own the Pratt estate. We see that vampires are able to have attorneys, and that’s all that would be needed in such a case.

                            For that last one: you’ve said things like Buffy was into Xander in BtVS S2 and that if she wasn’t under a spell that her flirting with Xander in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16) made sense. In actual canon, Xander was like her ‘very last resort’ option. And in BtVS S8
                            Spoiler:
                            she only approaches Xander because he’s literally the only guy possibly available to her and he’s about to be off the market. And she had sex with a woman before she even seriously thought about approaching him. And even Xander knows this and tells her so.
                            Cordelia relatively quickly moved on to Wesley and no longer seemed to love Xander. In AtS, she compares Doyle to Xander as if that’s a negative thing for Doyle to be compared to. Anya loved Xander but in BtVS S7 she’s trying to get Spike to have sex with her.

                            As for Spike: Drusilla, Harmony, Buffy,
                            Spoiler:
                            Spider, Beck, possibly Morgan if Spike actually wanted to be with her
                            all were in love with him and unless stated otherwise, still are.


                            My quote: It’s feeble to try to back up your argument that Faith beat Spike by saying that I think that Spike could have beaten up Illyria and Hamilton at the same time. If anything, it makes you seem anti-Spike and that’s the only reason you say that Faith beat Spike.

                            I say Faith won because, bottom line, Faith got her way; Spike shut up and left.
                            Spike wanted info on Buffy’s whereabouts and left because no one in the house knew where Buffy was. After this, Faith becomes concerned about her hold on leadership and actually has Willow, Giles, and Xander go look for Buffy. Faith in no way asserted her leadership because Spike did the exact opposite of ‘fall in line’: he went to go find who he considers should be leading the Scoobies and Potentials.

                            My quote: For the most part, I make a concerted effort to try to keep threads on-topic including editing out my responses to non-thread topic stuff and putting that stuff in another thread.

                            This would only be true if every thread with Xander's name in the subject was a topic for bashing the hell out of the character and aggrandizing another.
                            I didn’t bring up the “Out of My Mind” (5.04) thing. Not sure if that was this thread, but you brought that up.

                            All “bashing” means in this case is my criticizing (or whatever else) Xander and you’re not liking Xander being criticized.

                            This is a debating and discussion forum and Xander is not sacrosanct.

                            [Xander]'s the guy that spots the really important things that are the foundation of everything else; Dawn surrendering her starring role to Amanda being one example, but there are countless others.
                            He didn’t spot what Buffy actually needed in “Dead Man’s Party” (3.02): that was Giles. He didn’t spot that Willow was with Tara: that was Spike.

                            I'm fond, for instance, of him being the only one among Oz and Willow, even among Giles, to spot the moral horizon Buffy was walking toward with her intention to get Angel's cure from Faith and at least pointing it out to her -- that this decision might change who she is.
                            Yeah, but was this actually about what Buffy should do or about what kind of Buffy is it that Xander wants to be with. At the time, Faith couldn’t be reformed and she was the Mayor’s Number 2. That alone would be reason enough to kill her. That she tried to murder Angel is simply another reason and Buffy seems to only go after Faith because a Slayer’s blood is necessary to cure Angel.

                            In the context of what you seem to be saying about your example, the best is obviously “The Freshman” (4.01). Willow and Oz are kinda distant, Giles about abandons her until the end of the episode, and it’s Xander who gives her a pep talk and is the reason her ego is propped up and she’s mentally – and probably physically – able to go defeat Sunday the Vampire. Of course, even in this, Xander was hit full force with her loneliness and troubles. She decided to go to the Bronze rather than confront Willow with her unhappiness. And he had abandoned Buffy before any of the other Scoobies – barring Angel (and Cordelia?) – had.


                            Anyway, I’m not sure that Xander even actually believes that he “sees what others don’t” or whatever he says. I lean towards he was trying to prop Dawn up and give her an ego boost. He was saying that one doesn’t need superpowers to contribute to the Scooby Gang or even be vital to the Scooby Gang. Because again:

                            BtVS S4: He didn’t know about Willow/Tara. He does nothing about the distance between the Scoobies. He wasn’t “seeing” anything the others weren’t.

                            BtVS S5: Buffy/Riley wasn’t working. Xander tries to have Buffy believe that Riley’s the love of her life (that’s obviously not true). Dawn realizes that Spike’s in love with Buffy, although Dawn had been spending time with Spike and that’s how she knows. Spike’s the one Dawn connects to and is the one who props up Dawn’s self-worth and ego. Buffy herself somewhat only first does this in “Blood Ties” (5.13?) at the end of that episode.

                            BtVS S6: Xander doesn’t think about how Spike would react to finding out the Willow gang ‘betrayed’ him. Neither do the other members of that group, but Xander wasn’t ‘seeing’ anything either. Soon Xander’s mostly wrapped up in his engagement to Anya. He doesn’t notice Buffy’s depression. Spike and Dawn are the only ones to know that working fast food isn’t mentally healthy for Buffy. He doesn’t know that she’s with Spike. Again, the others don’t know about that either, but he’s doesn’t have a special ‘seeing things’ with that. And Buffy and Giles more confront Willow about her magic use than Xander does. Tara does also but she’s more directly affected by it.

                            BtVS S7: Xander initially didn’t want Buffy helping Spike although later he comes up with the Sleeper theory and eventually supports her relationship with Spike. But Willow does as well. Pretty much Xander’s only ‘seeing’ this Season is his knowing what it’s like to not have superpowers in the Scooby Gang. But Riley knew about this in BtVS S5. Wood knew about it in BtVS S7. And anyway, he doesn’t actually address Dawn’s real problem. Dawn’s real problem was her believing that Buffy was more focused on and cared more about the Potentials than about her. This continues in
                            Spoiler:
                            BtVS S8
                            and Xander never addressed this issue with Buffy. Dawn wanted to be a Potential because she thought that if she were, Buffy would focus on her again and care more about her than the other Potentials. As-is, Buffy later decided to send Xander and Dawn away before the big battle against the First Evil’s forces.

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