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  • #46
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post

    My point is that it’s canon no matter when Joss decides its canon.
    I'm not sure what you mean.

    Again, when Season 3 was airing, Joss wasn’t going to be saying that there was Buffy/Faith subtext.
    Why not? And he actually did, when the fans said there was. He just hadn't planned that there would be.

    Spoiler:
    Faith not wanting to have sex with Gigi doesn’t mean that Faith wasn’t into Buffy.
    No, but calling going down on a girl a "kink" that she's not into, quite strongly suggests that she isn't bisexual or gay. As does her saying in Dirty Girls that she missed something (sex, that is) in prison

    Not all women are Slayers.
    But all Slayers are women.

    Those weren’t explicit; that was some of the tamest stuff in the Buffyverse.
    For a gay sex scene on TV? Really no.

    And I personally think all sex scenes in Buffyverse were rather tame, by standards other than those of US network TV.
    So, Buffy was just moaning with Angel, Riley, and Spike?
    Did we get to actually hear very loud orgasmic sounds (to the point of being heard from another room) in any other on-screen sex scene on the show?

    That’s not certain.
    Yes, it is.

    Sure, you might like to imagine they did, just like someone might imagine that, say, Giles and Spike were having an affair during season 4, but that's the stuff for fanfic.
    Season 3 and Season 5 is not nowadays. Wasn’t Willow and Tara like the first same-sex couple to kiss on network TV? Willow/Tara was a huge deal in terms of showing a gay couple and having them act like a ‘normal couple’.
    They're not the first same-sex couple to kiss, but even if they were: Oh, come on. That doesn't mean that there weren't explicitly gay people and same-sex couples of American TV before. You don't have to have two people kiss to get across the idea that they're a romantic couple. Season 4 did just that with Willow/Tara, and they weren't even using words like "gay" or "lesbian" and it was still obvious at least since New Moon Rising, if not Who Are You?

    Heck, Dynasty had one of the main characters who identified as gay and was explicitly in a same-sex relationship in 1981.

    The idea that Buffy and Faith were supposed to be lovers in season 3 but Joss and the other writers were just too much chicken to ever get that across in any way, shape or form, is ludicrous. It was 1999, not 1959. And just a year later, they proved that they had no problem showing a main character in a lesbian relationship and getting that across without breaking the network's censorship rules.

    I do see subtext in Buffy/Faith, but it's of the "there is a kind of homoerotic fascination between them" kind, not "they're really having sex!" kind. I wasn't aware that there were people who genuinely believed the latter.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    • #47
      I said "sort of" for reasons related to TTB's. It's not going to happen, probably. I also think that if it happened, I could imagine it going off the rails and being emotionally damaging for both. I think that the characters have terrific chemistry though.

      Buffy and Faith were not lovers in season three. There is simply no way that that detail could be narratively overlooked.

      As far as explicitness, Faith stroking her leg while in Buffy's body in the bathroom is pretty sexually charged. And I think it's very likely that Faith got off on having Buffy's body in that way. Of course, the more sexual you interpret that bathtub scene, the more explicitly Faith's robbing Buffy's body becomes rape. (Which, I think it is a rape to begin with to rob someone of their body and then to use it for sex -- as she does when she sleeps with Riley.)
      Last edited by Local Maximum; 30-05-12, 08:42 PM.

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      • #48
        No, I don't like the idea of them together as a romantic couple. I like their friendship and how it has had to evolve don't get me wrong, but as in together as a couple, not for me.

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        • #49
          I will forever believe these two were/are in love. And it has nothing to do with how much I identify with Buffy and how in love with Faith I was growing up...I swear.

          In all seriousness, I really did think there was a metric eff ton of implied fuffy that we don't get more explicitly shown because of the network and/or desired subtlety.

          And until season eight I don't think Buffy was ready to try it on for size..
          http://buffyfashion.tumblr.com

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          • #50
            I believe Faith was/is in love with Buffy but I don't think it was ever reciprocated. Their dynamic plays out too much like Faith being deeply invested in Buffy and being repeatedly disappointed and hurt that Buffy isn't as engrossed in her back. And when she can’t put her finger on why she craves Buffy’s love and affection, and is repeatedly dissatisfied with the efforts Buffy makes with her, she grows increasingly resentful and pissed off.
            "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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            • #51
              ^^^ there was one moment where Buffy was becoming quite infatuated with Faith for example Bad Girls.

              It could work because they seem to sort of have a similar dynamic to Spuffy.

              Originally posted by Local Maximum View Post

              As far as explicitness, Faith stroking her leg while in Buffy's body in the bathroom is pretty sexually charged. And I think it's very likely that Faith got off on having Buffy's body in that way. Of course, the more sexual you interpret that bathtub scene, the more explicitly Faith's robbing Buffy's body becomes rape. (Which, I think it is a rape to begin with to rob someone of their body and then to use it for sex -- as she does when she sleeps with Riley.)
              Also the way she says "what do you want to do with this body, what little nasty fantasies do you want to try out?" to Riley was kind of suggestive too that faith was physically attracted to Buffy.

              Originally posted by kana View Post
              I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.

              If I'm honest, I don't really know what shipping means. If the question is "Do I support Buffy and Faith being in a romantic relationship, then I'd say no.

              Last edited by BuffySpike; 02-09-12, 09:47 PM.
              Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
              the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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              • #52
                TimeTravellingBunny

                My quote: My point is that it’s canon no matter when Joss decides its canon.

                I'm not sure what you mean.
                The easiest example is that Drusilla is Spike’s sire even though – on TV – this is only made certain canon in “Fool For Love” (5.07).

                My quote: Again, when Season 3 was airing, Joss wasn’t going to be saying that there was Buffy/Faith subtext.

                Why not? And he actually did, when the fans said there was. He just hadn't planned that there would be.
                He did? Then what’s the problem? It’s canon.


                * If Faith is not into any girl but Buffy, that doesn’t mean that she’s not into Buffy. It’s similar for Buffy. We only see Buffy being possibly attracted to Kendra, some subtext with Faith, and Buffy
                Spoiler:
                having sex with Satsu
                . We never see Buffy being attracted to girls who aren’t those three.

                My quote: [Willow/Tara] weren’t explicit; that was some of the tamest stuff in the Buffyverse.

                For a gay sex scene on TV? Really no.
                We should agree to disagree. You may have a different points of reference.

                And I personally think all sex scenes in Buffyverse were rather tame, by standards other than those of US network TV.
                It was on network TV. What you said is like saying that HBO sex scenes are rather tame compared to hardcore porn.

                My quote: So, Buffy was just moaning with Angel, Riley, and Spike?

                Did we get to actually hear very loud orgasmic sounds (to the point of being heard from another room) in any other on-screen sex scene on the show?
                Not everyone is ‘loud’ in bed. And this is network TV.

                My quote: That’s not certain.

                Yes, it is.
                You’re not the arbiter of canon. Buffy and Faith not having sex in BtVS S3 isn’t certain unless Joss says they never had sex.

                Sure, you might like to imagine they did, just like someone might imagine that, say, Giles and Spike were having an affair during season 4, but that's the stuff for fanfic.
                This is silly (to say the least). There was no Spike/Giles subtext.

                The idea that Buffy and Faith were supposed to be lovers in season 3 but Joss and the other writers were just too much chicken to ever get that across in any way, shape or form, is ludicrous.
                Buffy/Angel. And I never said “lovers”. I merely say that they could have fooled around or whatnot.

                I wasn't aware that there were people who genuinely believed the latter.
                I said they could have fooled around.



                Local Maximum

                Buffy and Faith were not lovers in season three. There is simply no way that that detail could be narratively overlooked.
                All that’s needed is that they simply don’t talk about it. Neither really had an incentive to tell anyone that this happened. Unless Buffy in “Dirty Girls” (7.18) decided to have a threesome, when would this have come up?

                As far as explicitness, Faith stroking her leg while in Buffy's body in the bathroom is pretty sexually charged. And I think it's very likely that Faith got off on having Buffy's body in that way.
                I consider that Faith 'touched herself' as Buffy.

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                • #53
                  In the shooting script for Enemies I think it was, Faith was originally supposed to kiss Buffy on the lips and not the forehead whilst saying "you're not ready for that....yet"

                  If that isn't subtext then I don't know what is lol.


                  Also I dont think they had sex in season 3????? Thats just speculation surely? Its also not canon unless Joss said they did.
                  Last edited by BuffySpike; 02-10-12, 11:50 PM.
                  Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
                  the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BuffySpike View Post
                    In the shooting script for Enemies I think it was, Faith was originally supposed to kiss Buffy on the lips and not the forehead whilst saying "you're not ready for that....yet"

                    If that isn't subtext then I don't know what is lol.
                    This was something that was censored out. Unfortunately her not kissing Buffy on the lips is canon.

                    Also I dont think they had sex in season 3????? Thats just speculation surely? Its also not canon unless Joss said they did.
                    Joss said that there was Buffy/Faith subtext but he didn't mean that it's canon that they actually had sex.

                    I reason that they could have fooled around not that they actually did.

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