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Heroism, Power, and the Illusion of "Usefulness"

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  • #61
    Jack Shaftoe

    “Sanctuary” (A 1.19?): Buffy was getting automatic fire at her – including from a helicopter – and she survived that.

    In that little session that Buffy had with the Initiative soldiers, Buffy easily neutralized them.

    The Knights of Byzantium thing was about Buffy's willingness to kill people: you seemed to imply that she wouldn't be willing to kill the Initiative soldiers.


    My quote: Buffy is a supernatural being; therefore, Walsh had the authority to try to rid the Initiative of the problem Buffy may cause.

    This is still my position. I didn’t say that it was a good thing that Walsh tried to kill Buffy.


    My quote: No one cared that that was done to Ethan aside from Ethan. Buffy had family and friends and had Giles and the Watchers’ Council.

    So the government wouldn't have dared put Buffy in jail because she had, gasp, family and friends?
    It’d be a harder legal case for the government. And Buffy breaking into a demon-experimenting institution wouldn’t be something that the government would want the public to know.

    As for the Council, I doubt the Initiative knew or cared about it, so again I ask - huh?
    The Council could defend Buffy.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by MikeB View Post
      The Knights of Byzantium thing was about Buffy's willingness to kill people: you seemed to imply that she wouldn't be willing to kill the Initiative soldiers.
      I think even if she were assaulting the Initiative for some reason, she wouldn't kill any soldier that left her any choice at all. The Knights she killed came after her, and she didn't kill any of them pursuant to some moral authority she had as the Slayer, she was exercising her legal right as a citizen of California and of the United States to use lethal force in self-defense under threat of imminent death or grievous bodily harm. Skill aside, Dawn would have been just as entitled to kill any of those Knights attacking them as Buffy was.

      But we see in Season 8, Buffy has no interest in killing humans in the course of her Slayer duty, even that are on the other side from her, if she has any alternative at all.

      Could that restraint cost her trying to invade a fortified military base? Yes, very likely. But she is who she is.
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      • #63
        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        I think even if she were assaulting the Initiative for some reason, she wouldn't kill any soldier that left her any choice at all.
        Again, she was easily able to neutralize the Initiative soldiers when she did that training exercise. She'd be putting her life and mission above the safety of the soldiers.

        The Knights she killed came after her, and she didn't kill any of them pursuant to some moral authority she had as the Slayer, she was exercising her legal right as a citizen of California and of the United States to use lethal force in self-defense under threat of imminent death or grievous bodily harm.
        It's about certain that none of this figured into her calculation. They were going after Dawn and so she prevented them from doing that. And these people seemed to be working for 'God' or at least thought they were. It's possible she'd have less sympathy for the Initiative soldiers.

        But we see in Season 8, Buffy has no interest in killing humans in the course of her Slayer duty, even that are on the other side from her, if she has any alternative at all.
        Huh?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
          It's about certain that none of this figured into her calculation.
          It's about certain that when Buffy was fighting on top the roof of a moving Winnebago she didn’t have much time to calculate anything. She killed those Knights out of self-defence and nothing more. We were told later in the episode by one of the Knights that “three of his men are dead” which must mean that at least two of them died from falling off the Winnebago. The only kill shot Buffy actually makes is when she hurls the axe into the chest of the Knight creeping up behind her. What other choice did she have? She can’t leave the Knights on top of the bus so she had to throw them off and she can’t control how they take the landing when they hit the ground.

          When Buffy didn't have to kill the Knights she didn't. She knew they were coming for Dawn in Checkpoint but she still couldn't bring herself to kill them and instead let them all go.

          They were going after Dawn and so she prevented them from doing that. And these people seemed to be working for 'God' or at least thought they were. It's possible she'd have less sympathy for the Initiative soldiers.
          I doubt Buffy had any sympathy for religious fanatics. In fact, Buffy already considers religion “creepy” so what makes you think ‘working for God’ is going to inspire any more sympathy in her for the Knights than she would’ve had for the Initiative soldiers? If anything, mouthing off about God is likely to make them seem even less appealing to her. Not to mention that they're all gunning for her little sister. And you forget that, aside from dating one of the Initiative soldiers, Buffy had actually socialised with them for a brief time when she joined the Initiative or at fraternity parties so it’s far more likely she had sympathy for them. They weren’t all horrible people but more misguided and manipulated like Riley had been.

          Huh?
          What do you mean "huh?" What about King’s statement is unclear? In The Long Way Home she tells Satsu not to kill any of Voll's human soldiers unless she absolutely has to. She then offers the General to have Willow heal his dying men if he cooperates. In Retreat she orders her people to gather the enemy’s wounded soldiers off the battlefield in Tibet and is then seen tending to their injuries in Turbulence. Buffy did not kill humans unless there was no other alternative and she instructs those under her command to do the same.
          Last edited by vampmogs; 12-09-12, 04:40 AM.
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          • #65
            vampmogs , I'm not sure what your overall argument is. Maybe it's that Buffy was more inclined to kill Knights of Byzantium than she would be inclined to kill Initiative soldiers?

            I have forgotten what the original argument was and why killing Initiative soldiers came up. I think it had something to do with Buffy's relationship with Riley lessening her objectivity about the Initiative. Giles and Co. all reasoned the Initiative were bad but because Buffy decided to date someone who turned out to be a solider there, she eventually decided to join them instead of fight against them.

            My point is that Buffy is willing to kill humans; that she could neutralize the Initiative soldiers; and that perhaps were not for her relationship with Riley, the Scoobies would have been able to take down the Initiative.

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