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  • #31
    I wasn't talking about the AR. I'm talking more about Dark Willow, the handwaving of Buffy's depression and constant heal-turns from dramatic or cool moments. Like Dawn suddenly being able to sword-fight. Now, it's a cool scene, but makes no sense. Her complaint all season was Buffy not being around. So when did she watch her sister fight enough to learn it? Vampmogs already covered Dark Willow. Then you have Giles showing up flinging magic around and telling Buffy the exact opposite of what he said earlier. And they all have a laugh, which, IMO, was OOC for Giles. Giles' behavior in S7 was more in line with S2-S6.20 Giles than TTG/Grave. It's an unpopular opinion in itself, but I didn't have any problems with how the AR was dealt with. That was completely in character for Buffy.


    I get why the writers did it. Joss outright said people were tired of the depressing storylines. They wanted some happy. I get it. But it does make you look back at the season as a whole and wonder the actual point of it.

    I didn't have issues with the scythe. I liked it. The amulet on the other hand, was crap. The Guardian stuff didn't bother me all that much, either. I like it when a show leaves things on the table. In fact, one of the only reasons I looked at the comics was to see if there was more info on the slayer line and that stuff. Unfortunately, Joss seemed more interested in making fun of current pop culture and constantly rewriting vampire mythology than going deeper into the slayer heritage stuff.
    Last edited by HardlyThere; 19-11-20, 02:38 PM.

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    • flow
      flow commented
      Editing a comment
      I hated that laugh...

  • #32
    I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought the Scythe was lame. I always hated it, from the concept to the execution. The prop looked like a shiny toy that that had just fallen out of a Christmas cracker, rather then some kind of ancient weapon. It came across as all so silly to me.

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    • #33
      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
      Some more;

      - Cordy and Wesley were terrible friends to Angel in AtS Season 2: Everyone goes on about Angel's bad behaviour in S2 (which is completely valid) but Cordy and Wes were honestly awful to Angel in the first half of the season. The way they completely doubted him about Darla in Dear Boy is utterly ridiculous. He travelled the world with her for over 100 years, I think he'd recongise her! If he says it's Darla then it's Darla. I think their treatment of him (the constant doubt, Cordy's snide remarks, avoiding the issue etc) contributes greatly to his isolation from them.
      Yes! And it disturbed me how little they cared about some serious signs. Angel wanting to sleep all the time/being tired without a clear reason, was a major red flag. So were the many drawings of Darla. Especially since they knew W&H were up to something after To Shanshu in LA.


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      • #34
        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
        I think the "graphic" stuff in S6 is only true within the relative tameness of the show as a whole and American TV at the time. Buffy showed at 8pm on an over-the-air network. It started off as a high school show. It's certainly tame compared to shows from other countries, but showing characters can have sex that isn't all hearts and flowers and missionary and had sound effects was kinda graphic for the time. That said, I can't help but suspect the modern complaints are more rooted in the who than the what.
        Which current shows are you all talking about? The US network shows are still pretty "tame". It doesn't make sense to compare a network show to cable or streaming shows. (Stoney mentioned GoT. Which was on HBO and actually had an executive whose role was, in his own words - according to the testimony of Neil Marshall, director of several episodes - to "think of the pervert demographic" and ensure as much female nudity as possible, even when Marshall as the director of the episode was opposing it because he thought it was distracting and didn't fit the scene).
        You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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        • #35
          For my unpopular opinions:

          I absolutely hate the idea that Buffy should have finished with The Gift. I would have HATED it if Buffy had finished with The Gift. Don't get me wrong, The Gift is a wonderful episode, one of the best in the show - but I would have hated it if it had been the series finale. The show ending with Buffy's death would've been the opposite of its core messages.

          People who try to argue that AtS is better than BtVS usually end to really, really exaggerate how "adult". "mature" and "morally grey" AtSwas compared to BtVS, usually making broad statements about BtVS that are based on stereotypes about the show and not actual facts and making it look like BtVS was a children's show.

          Angel had a lot of great episodes, but I don't think it ever had a single season that I find fully satisfactory and well-constructed. Season 2 was the best, but it was a weird combo of two very different short seasons, with some standalones in between. To be fair, it's a combo of a really great half-season about the Darla arc and a very enjoyable mini-season about Pylea, but the combination is weird and dissonant.

          The treatment of Seeing Red AR was the only time in the verse when a sexual assault was taken seriously and treated pretty well by the narrative, as opposed to so many other cases (as opposed to, say, HyenaXander's AR of Buffy - which apparently didn't traumatize either of them, that swimmer dude assault in Go Fish- which the Scoobies treated like a joke, Faith's AR of Xander, Faith's rape of Riley and arguably Buffy, not to mention many creepy non-consensual moments Angel was in on his show, from Marcus using his body to make out with Lilah and others, to the non-consensual magical sex in Life of the Party...).

          If people want to hate on Joss Whedon, the best reason for that was the Cordelia storyline in season 4 and her death and his treatment of Charisma Carpenter, so I'm not sure why they were still idolizing him then but hate him so much now... now that it's become popular to hate him.
          Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 19-11-20, 11:19 PM.
          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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          • Stoney
            Stoney commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes, there certainly was an awful lot of sexual assaults that were treated lightly or even as a joke and I really agree that BtVS is talked about as if it is less mature than AtS in a way that doesn't actually reflect the show.

        • #36
          Originally posted by bespangeled View Post

          Angel on his own show was so much better than BTVS Angel. Angel on BTVS existed only for Buffy. He is never really seen as doing anything except supporting Buffy. Bangel in season three becomes tedious and predictable. I really love season his character become more layered once he leaves Buffy.
          That's the popular opinion. I've never seen anyone say that Angel was better on BtVS.
          While I agree with this (as does pretty much everyone else ), my unpopular opinion is that Angel wasn't "boring" on BtVS, as many claim. Yes, he was primarily Buffy's love interest, but he also already had an interesting and complex characterization and backstory - which AtS then further explored and took to the next level.
          Of course, that's because "Angelus" is not some other dude, it's him. People who claim Angel was "boring" seem to think they're two different characters (even though that really doesn't make sense IMO).

          Is it an unpopular opinion to think that there really is no ambiguity about whether Angel and Angelus are two people?

          Maybe not an unpopular opinion on this forum, but definitely everywhere else: Angel/Darla is my favorite of Angel's romantic relationships, because it was the most interesting and well developed one.
          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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          • #37
            Originally posted by vampmogs View Post

            - Whatever Spike says isn't gospel - especially about Buffy/Slayers: It seems to be a commonly held belief that whatever Spike says about Buffy/Slayers is some undeniable truth just because he claims to "know Slayers" and people tout him as a truth-teller. Nope! Not only is Spike often wrong just like any other character but can we seriously not act as if the guy that was obsessed with killing Slayers "knows them better than they know themselves." I find it so icky.

            - Cordy isn't perfect: I am definitely not one of those fans that dream of Cordy returning to Sunnydale to put all the Scoobies in their place (vom). Cordy isn't perfect. She's a great character and a lovely person but even in later AtS she still has plenty of flaws. She encourages Angel to do some really bad things (like kill Holtz), she checks out of her friendship with Wesley, and she still has a lot of hubris and ego. She's not a saint! And nor would I want her to be!
            I agree with both of these.
            I also think that even BtVS Cordy gets away with way too much in the fandom these days because "Girl Power" or whatever compared to other characters (especially Xander - he gets criticized a lot for his sexist remarks, but high school Cordy was a bully and says a lot of classist, racist, ableist and sexist things and people don't judge her the same).

            - The Scoobies were not wrong to resurrect Buffy: Buffy's depression in S6 is not a valid argument for leaving her dead at 21 years of age! Buffy never wanted to die. Buffy told her friends as late as S5 that she "wanted her death to be a long time coming." Buffy didn't even want to die anymore 11 episodes into S6 ("I don't want to die" - Gone). When people are suicidal we help them, we don't encourage them to end their life or wish them dead. I don't get how people square their belief that Buffy should have been left dead with them still rooting for her to win her battles and be victorious for the remaining 2 seasons. Shouldn't we therefore be rooting for some demon to kill her again so she can "be at peace?"
            I agree, but think the great thing about the resurrection as a storyline is that it was morally ambiguous and not straightforwardly good or bad.
            You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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            • #38
              Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post

              Which current shows are you all talking about? The US network shows are still pretty "tame". It doesn't make sense to compare a network show to cable or streaming shows. (Stoney mentioned GoT. Which was on HBO and actually had an executive whose role was, in his own words - according to the testimony of Neil Marshall, director of several episodes - to "think of the pervert demographic" and ensure as much female nudity as possible, even when Marshall as the director of the episode was opposing it because he thought it was distracting and didn't fit the scene).
              I don't know. It was just a cover-all comment because I don't watch shows on NBC/ABC/CBS/Fox/CW anymore. I've heard similar things about HBO and their requirements for actresses to do nudity. I've had some suspicions as this might have been what happened to SMG's pilot for them, which disappeared without a trace. The director, Alan Taylor (no lightweight), didn't even understand why they passed.

              The treatment of Seeing Red AR was the only time in the verse when a sexual assault was taken seriously and treated pretty well by the narrative
              Seems like some wanted it turned into some kind of after school special.
              Last edited by HardlyThere; 20-11-20, 12:13 AM.

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              • #39
                Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                I agree with both of these.
                I also think that even BtVS Cordy gets away with way too much in the fandom these days because "Girl Power" or whatever compared to other characters (especially Xander - he gets criticized a lot for his sexist remarks, but high school Cordy was a bully and says a lot of classist, racist, ableist and sexist things and people don't judge her the same).
                Oh definitely. I've even seen a lot of comments saying that Cordelia was a really good friend to Buffy unlike Xander and Willow which is just.... mindboggling... because Cordy was literally hating on Buffy up until her finale episode ("It's such a Buffy thing to do. She's always thinking of herself").

                I think a lot of it does stem from superficial notions of 'girl power' but I also think it's largely about the goodwill fans feel towards Charisma Carpenter, especially in light of the Whedon drama. It's kind of blurred the lines between her and the character and made people get a little ridiculous.

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                • #40
                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post

                  Oh definitely. I've even seen a lot of comments saying that Cordelia was a really good friend to Buffy unlike Xander and Willow which is just.... mindboggling... because Cordy was literally hating on Buffy up until her finale episode ("It's such a Buffy thing to do. She's always thinking of herself").

                  I think a lot of it does stem from superficial notions of 'girl power' but I also think it's largely about the goodwill fans feel towards Charisma Carpenter, especially in light of the Whedon drama. It's kind of blurred the lines between her and the character and made people get a little ridiculous.
                  Agreed, to say BtVS Cordy is sympathetic is mind boggling. She had developed a bit but then with the Xander breakup the writers just pressed the reset and she went back to high school bitch. Even Whedon admitted she acted like a cartoon on the DVD commentary.
                  It wasn't until Ats that she developed into a real character and only after Doyles death as she fell into that role. Which worked perfectly I should add.

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                  • #41
                    Ok....I don't hate the arguement in Empty Places - I think as Faith says 'they're all wicked stressed and Xander has just lost an eye ....for good. I think both Buffy and a lot of other people had points and it turns out they were both right - the bad guys were were the power was but everyone going back in there wasn't the way to get it. I don't blame Dawn for kicking Buffy out she didn't do it vindictively, shown by turning on Rona for being a bitch about it, and she was right they needed to be unifbed which brings me too....

                    Anya was on occasion a vindictive bitch in season seven and I wish someone would have told her to STFU at least once - Also I'd have liked her trying to be independent character development that was hinted at in Selfless. Also if Spike isn't always right she isn't either.

                    I love Faith but the trauma she inflicts on Xander in Consequences and to some extent Buffy and Riley in WAY is just as rapey as Seeing Red and Buffy's rage at her and Angel n Sanctuary is understandable in that light even if it's wrong.

                    Dawn has grown on me and a lot of that's due to her fans. - I think most fans could learn from them. They are lovely and advocate beautifully for her without attacking other characters or their fans.

                    I find Buffy more interesting and sympathetic as she gets older even when she's depressed.

                    I think Angel can be very controlling and petty on occasion and I'm ambivalent towards him - sometimes he makes me want to punch the air, sometimes he makes me want to punch him.

                    Hush and I Will Remember You are both a tad overated and the Girl in Question is utter shite apart from the Wes/Ilyria bits.





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                    • #42
                      Originally posted by Vampadvo View Post
                      Anya was on occasion a vindictive bitch in season seven and I wish someone would have told her to STFU at least once - Also I'd have liked her trying to be independent character development that was hinted at in Selfless. Also if Spike isn't always right she isn't either.
                      Honestly, I think it would have been better if Anya had died in Selfless as originally intended. The following episodes walk back on a lot of the progress she makes in that episode by having her complain about the frat boy incident. I absolutely hate Anya complaining about it in LMTPM as it completely undermines her remorse and the sacrifice she was willing to make at the time.

                      And I completely agree with you about her being a vindictive bitch a lot of the time. In Get It Done she literally tries to convince people to leave Buffy lost in the dimensional portal ("if she's so superior let her find her own way back!") and she's horrible in Empty Places. She doesn't even believe what she's saying in Empty Places when she claims Buffy's calling made her "luckier" than them because in Potential she was (rightfully) pointing out how awful it would be for Dawn ("a short brutal life").

                      Having her sacrifice herself to reverse her wish would have been the better ending for her. I don't mind her ending in Chosen but they make her so damn unpleasant for most of the season that she could have ended on a high note.


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                      • #43
                        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post

                        Honestly, I think it would have been better if Anya had died in Selfless as originally intended. The following episodes walk back on a lot of the progress she makes in that episode by having her complain about the frat boy incident. I absolutely hate Anya complaining about it in LMTPM as it completely undermines her remorse and the sacrifice she was willing to make at the time.

                        And I completely agree with you about her being a vindictive bitch a lot of the time. In Get It Done she literally tries to convince people to leave Buffy lost in the dimensional portal ("if she's so superior let her find her own way back!") and she's horrible in Empty Places. She doesn't even believe what she's saying in Empty Places when she claims Buffy's calling made her "luckier" than them because in Potential she was (rightfully) pointing out how awful it would be for Dawn ("a short brutal life").

                        Having her sacrifice herself to reverse her wish would have been the better ending for her. I don't mind her ending in Chosen but they make her so damn unpleasant for most of the season that she could have ended on a high note.
                        The whole thing with Buffy being kicked out of her home. She is sympathetic but then does the same thing to a guy in the very next episode which seemed very unsympathetic

                        I agree about Anya. I don't know if that was the plan or not. I'd heard the EC was leaving at the end of the year regardless if the show carried on. I also suspect she was originally slated to die in the Gift (how did she survive those bricks?) But I not heard that she was going to die in Selfless. Though that would've been perfect imo
                        Last edited by BtVS fan; 21-11-20, 12:16 AM.

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                        • #44
                          While I do think Anya is the one character who gets done poorly in S7, I also don't necessarily think she's that far off from her old self, either. Perhaps even moreso than Spike, Anya did not like the gang outside of her romantic interests in one of them. Like someone upthread said, the problem Anya and characters like her--Spike or Cordy, for example--is people confuse speaking their mind with telling the truth. Often they are only used to state outright a characters fear or used to present conflicting opinion. More often than not, they're wrong. While I don't take particular offense to her writing, the way they chose to write her made me not care all that much about her death in Chosen. Another unpopular opinion is I wasn't moved by her speech in The Body, either. While Emma does a good job, the whole thing feels contrived and forced. Anya spent 1000 years killing people, so it's not all that believable to me she wouldn't have a concept of the finality of death.

                          Also possibly unpopular is I think the toxicness of relationships get overstated and the relationships over-simplified. Bangel was more than some puppy love and Spuffy was more than just sex. Buffy wasn't with Riley because he was normal. Buffy and Angel were shown to talk and do fun things. Same with Buffy and Spike. Riley was a super-soldier demon hunter, not normal at all, so I have no idea where that stuff comes from.

                          Comparing Spike and Angel is unfair. The circumstances of both of their ensoulments were totally different.

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                          • TimeTravellingBunny
                            TimeTravellingBunny commented
                            Editing a comment
                            One could argue that she never had a real understanding of death because she didn't experience the death of a loved one, and she was emotionally removed from the people she was killing. The way media are often said to make war look like a video game.

                          • TimeTravellingBunny
                            TimeTravellingBunny commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I agree about the relationships.

                          • Nina
                            Nina commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Just a quick reminder to make a post and not a double comment when your reply is too long for one comment.

                        • #45
                          Comparing and contrasting them can be interesting. But the context of their different backgrounds, personalities and paths is always a factor in that. How they differ can help to draw focus to the aspects in them/their stories that is about their individuality. So I don't think comparing them is inherently problematic, it just depends on the way in which it is being done. If it is about succeeding or failing because of how the other handles similar situations and issues, then that I'd agree is an unfair way to consider it.

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