Show Criticisms You Don't Agree With

[HardlyThere]

One of the most common complaints about the show, particularly S1, is how dated it is. The examples given typically revolve around things only date the show in terms of the time in which it takes place. It's a 90s show, focused on 90s teens, set in the 90s in the 90s American High School. Which to say, if the fashion doesn't seem modern it's because it's accurate. How else are 90s kids supposed to dress? These things do not make a TV show dated.

What dates shows are overused camera techniques, sequencing, sometimes manner of speech and transitions. In this regard, Buffy was very advanced for the time it aired and holds up to anything currently being put out. There are indeed some dated shots in S1, particularly the power shot in Prophecy Girl with the theme music playing. That is indeed very mid-90s. But it is one shot in 12 episodes.

I often feel like people that level this complaint don't really get the meaning of it. You want to see dated storytelling and camera work, check out stuff like Seaquest or The Pretender. Establishing shots every other scene, sepia all over the place, static cameras. Watch stuff like that and then watch BtVS/AtS and you'll realize, distractingly dated it is not.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

One of the most common complaints about the show, particularly S1, is how dated it is. The examples given typically revolve around things only date the show in terms of the time in which it takes place. It's a 90s show, focused on 90s teens, set in the 90s in the 90s American High School. Which to say, if the fashion doesn't seem modern it's because it's accurate. How else are 90s kids supposed to dress? These things do not make a TV show dated.

What dates shows are overused camera techniques, sequencing, sometimes manner of speech and transitions. In this regard, Buffy was very advanced for the time it aired and holds up to anything currently being put out. There are indeed some dated shots in S1, particularly the power shot in Prophecy Girl with the theme music playing. That is indeed very mid-90s. But it is one shot in 12 episodes.

I often feel like people that level this complaint don't really get the meaning of it. You want to see dated storytelling and camera work, check out stuff like Seaquest or The Pretender. Establishing shots every other scene, sepia all over the place, static cameras. Watch stuff like that and then watch BtVS/AtS and you'll realize, distractingly dated it is not.

I agree.

When it comes to actually dated stuff, I'd point out to:

• the awful genetic synth background music in S1 (but that was also due to the low budget and changed in subsequent seasons)
• lack of racial diversity
• bi erasure
• the Inca Mummy Girl party definitely wouldn't be happening today, or it would get a lot of criticism for cultural appropriation
• pretty flippant attitude to sexual assault in some of the episodes, particularly in early seasons (The Pack and Go Fish come to mind)

There's probably a lot more

And then there's I Robot, You Jane - which was already dated at the time it aired. The way people talk about the Internet makes it sound more like 1991 than 1997, and the overall attitude to computers and people who are good with computers seems out of the 1970s.

There's also stuff that would probably get called problematic today much more than it was then, but I don't know if it's dated as crap like this is still done on TV shows, like the double standard towards sexual assault when the perpetrator is a woman (no consequences of any kind after Consequences, Who Are You?) and while I'd love to believe it, I'm not really sure if Hollywood has generally become more racially sensitive when it comes to stereotypes about Roma (the infamous "Gypsy curse").

[American Aurora]

Re-lensing the view of the show to see other characters like Cordelia and Faith as far more heroic figures than Buffy or Willow because they’re more brazenly outspoken despite the fact that they’re initially introduced as a**holes who treat people badly and only grow into confident, empathetic heroes many seasons later.

[HardlyThere]

Re-lensing the view of the show to see other characters like Cordelia and Faith as far more heroic figures than Buffy or Willow because they’re more brazenly outspoken despite the fact that they’re initially introduced as a**holes who treat people badly and only grow into confident, empathetic heroes many seasons later.

Sort of OT, but that's one of those things that make me roll my eyes. I used to read those Storylines You Wish We Saw things and invariably someone would say they wanted the Scooby gang to witness Cordelia. And I mean witness, too, because apparently Cordy transcended to a Christ level at some point and the gang would be totally awed by her. Or something.

I've found it kind of typical though in fandoms that go on for a long time for them to get increasingly hostile and critical to the main players, largely because they constructed a bunch of headcanons around their faves. Mains are frequently downplayed by fandoms in general; they're taken for granted. The heroes good deeds are dismissed while a side, antihero character will get more credit for NOT killing someone.

[vampmogs]

Re-lensing the view of the show to see other characters like Cordelia and Faith as far more heroic figures than Buffy or Willow because they’re more brazenly outspoken despite the fact that they’re initially introduced as a**holes who treat people badly and only grow into confident, empathetic heroes many seasons later.

Yeah this is especially true for Cordelia. It's got to the point nowadays where her S1 bullying is completely dismissed as no big deal and people criticise Willow more for the "deliver" moment in The Harvest, which is ridiculous.

I think people forget just how awful Cordelia was at times in S1. She went out of her way to ostracise the new girl from everyone on her first day at school ("I have to call everyone I have ever met right now"), she was horrific to Willow ("Who gave you permission to exist?"), she was physically threatening to Amy in The Witch (slamming the lock door) etc. And this kind of bullying was meant to have went on for years throughout primary school etc.

I'm all for recognising that Cordelia has layers and has very likeable and endearing traits as well but it doesn't mean you downplay her serious flaws. It's bizarre seeing it twisted around as if Willow was at fault for the way Cordelia treated her or that their actions later in the series somehow change this.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

Sort of OT, but that's one of those things that make me roll my eyes. I used to read those Storylines You Wish We Saw things and invariably someone would say they wanted the Scooby gang to witness Cordelia. And I mean witness, too, because apparently Cordy transcended to a Christ level at some point and the gang would be totally awed by her. Or something.

I've found it kind of typical though in fandoms that go on for a long time for them to get increasingly hostile and critical to the main players, largely because they constructed a bunch of headcanons around their faves. Mains are frequently downplayed by fandoms in general; they're taken for granted. The heroes good deeds are dismissed while a side, antihero character will get more credit for NOT killing someone.

It's probably also fueled by the belief that you're super edgy and cool if you like supporting characters better, particularly those that are in conflict with the main characters. You know, people who like to say "I never like the main characters, the supporting characters are always more interesting!"

[BtVS fan]

Yeah this is especially true for Cordelia. It's got to the point nowadays where her S1 bullying is completely dismissed as no big deal and people criticise Willow more for the "deliver" moment in The Harvest, which is ridiculous.

I think people forget just how awful Cordelia was at times in S1. She went out of her way to ostracise the new girl from everyone on her first day at school ("I have to call everyone I have ever met right now"), she was horrific to Willow ("Who gave you permission to exist?"), she was physically threatening to Amy in The Witch (slamming the lock door) etc. And this kind of bullying was meant to have went on for years throughout primary school etc.

I'm all for recognising that Cordelia has layers and has very likeable and endearing traits as well but it doesn't mean you downplay her serious flaws. It's bizarre seeing it twisted around as if Willow was at fault for the way Cordelia treated her or that their actions later in the series somehow change this.

Wait people defend Cordelia ? She's the cliche high school bitch. Even on the DVD commentary Whedon says how she acts like a total cartoon, (interestingly he also admits her because your boring line was what he said to somone else in real life) . How can anyone defend that ?

American Aurora Regards Faith, yeah she was bad but I think the issue there was not she was bad but more Buffy literally committing Attempted murder on her with no consequences. On Buffys part. Joss copped out big time there. He admits he didn't have her die because he didn't want Buffy to be a murderer. I guess Attempted murder is OK then

[American Aurora]

Excellent point! But I’ve actually read pieces that claim Faith should’ve been the hero instead of Buffy because she was transgressive. I can’t agree with that.

[Nina]

I agree that there is certainly a group fans in probably every fandom who wants to be edgy and is only interested in the bad guys/antagonist. But the desire to see the story from another POV is not odd IMO. A POV does colour other characters and the antagonist is usually more layered in 'reality' than what the protagonist sees/wants to see. Not sure if you're going to get a BtVS!Cordelia with much more layers though. Young Cordy seems to be a case of "what you see is what you get" and she doesn't really change until the second part of Ats s1.

[American Aurora]

It’s not so much that they’re interested in the bad guys as it is that they have to put down Buffy and Willow to do it. That’s what I find strange.

[HardlyThere]

It's probably also fueled by the belief that you're super edgy and cool if you like supporting characters better, particularly those that are in conflict with the main characters. You know, people who like to say "I never like the main characters, the supporting characters are always more interesting!"

I wouldn't call them edgy. That sort of implies they are only doing it for show. They really think that, though. Some types of characters are never what you would call fandom accessible. Buffy's one of them. She's not poor. She's not ugly. She's not an outcast nerd. She's "basic". To their eyes, she's one of those shallow squares who aren't important. In fact, they hate them. Which is basically Faith's POV and that's who they identify with. So you get POVs like above where they omit half the story so Faith looks like a victim. Outside of fandom, Buffy is way more popular than in fandom.

That's an area where I think the show and Joss's work as a whole fails. I mean, his goal was to take the blonde-haired cheerleader type who gets raped/murdered in an alley and give her a story.Cool. But he never, ever delves into why that trope was/is so common to begin with. Why do people like to see that? What's the drive there? We can all take a guess as to why the 'black person dies first' trope exists, but neither the show, nor anyone else really, gets into Buffy trope genesis even though it rides on it.

It is cool to see things from other POVs, but you can't really ignore the realities of the story which is what so often happens.

[BtVS fan]

I wouldn't call them edgy. That sort of implies they are only doing it for show. They really think that, though. Some types of characters are never what you would call fandom accessible. Buffy's one of them. She's not poor. She's not ugly. She's not an outcast nerd. She's "basic". To their eyes, she's one of those shallow squares who aren't important. In fact, they hate them. Which is basically Faith's POV and that's who they identify with. So you get POVs like above where they omit half the story so Faith looks like a victim. Outside of fandom, Buffy is way more popular than in fandom.

That's an area where I think the show and Joss's work as a whole fails. I mean, his goal was to take the blonde-haired cheerleader type who gets raped/murdered in an alley and give her a story.Cool. But he never, ever delves into why that trope was/is so common to begin with. Why do people like to see that? What's the drive there? We can all take a guess as to why the 'black person dies first' trope exists, but neither the show, nor anyone else really, gets into Buffy trope genesis even though it rides on it.

It is cool to see things from other POVs, but you can't really ignore the realities of the story which is what so often happens.

The show is full of tropes though. You've got the tweed wearing English cliché to contrast with the super cool Americans. ASH even has to change his voice for the part. In fact all English people are more or less like portrayed like that. Even when he was meant to have this Badboy ripper past he's the guy that gets knocked out in fights. Compared to say Xander who does quite well in them.
Joss admits that Nic Brendon was way to good looking for the role he was playing but its TV so get over it.
Buffy herself is in a Teen romance which was/is the Twilight style trope that other shows have copied. Essentially good looking people going out with each other Hell all the cast are good looking 20 somethings. Joss says that David Borenaz was hired because the women literally turned to puddles when he came into the room to audition.
I think it was Marti Noxon who commented on the difference between them and a real school when they shot a scene in a real school.

While Joss own Male fantasy character was Riley Finn. The tall good looking all American hero.

You had heroines before Buffy like Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley so that 80's horror genre trope (which thats all it was) of helpless girl was kind of done anyway.

And while Buffy subverted that trope at the same time he had other characters like Cordelia literally screaming for help and needing Buffy to save them a lot. Hell the first half of the Angel spin off is literally episodes of this big broody hero saving helpless women in Alleys. He even kind of admits that on the City of Commentary though he does it anyway.

[BtVS fan]

I agree that there is certainly a group fans in probably every fandom who wants to be edgy and is only interested in the bad guys/antagonist. But the desire to see the story from another POV is not odd IMO. A POV does colour other characters and the antagonist is usually more layered in 'reality' than what the protagonist sees/wants to see. Not sure if you're going to get a BtVS!Cordelia with much more layers though. Young Cordy seems to be a case of "what you see is what you get" and she doesn't really change until the second part of Ats s1.

I think Buffy early S3 Cordelia has layers then they break her and Xander up and they pretty much press the reset button on her, until the Prom

[TimeTravellingBunny]

I wouldn't call them edgy. That sort of implies they are only doing it for show. They really think that, though. Some types of characters are never what you would call fandom accessible. Buffy's one of them. She's not poor. She's not ugly. She's not an outcast nerd. She's "basic". To their eyes, she's one of those shallow squares who aren't important. In fact, they hate them. Which is basically Faith's POV and that's who they identify with. So you get POVs like above where they omit half the story so Faith looks like a victim. Outside of fandom, Buffy is way more popular than in fandom.

That's an area where I think the show and Joss's work as a whole fails. I mean, his goal was to take the blonde-haired cheerleader type who gets raped/murdered in an alley and give her a story.Cool. But he never, ever delves into why that trope was/is so common to begin with. Why do people like to see that? What's the drive there? We can all take a guess as to why the 'black person dies first' trope exists, but neither the show, nor anyone else really, gets into Buffy trope genesis even though it rides on it.

It is cool to see things from other POVs, but you can't really ignore the realities of the story which is what so often happens.

First off, that certainly doesn't explain people who do that with Cordelia, does it?

Secondly, when I say I've seen people say that, I mean I've actually seen people say that. No, it can't be down to "they want to see POC as the main character" because there are shows with POC as the main character, no, it can't be down to "they want to see poor people as the main characters" because there are shows about people struggling with poverty. And so on. So if that was their problem, they'd do and watch those shows. Or ask why there aren't more shows with a different kind of protagonist But if you're instead saying you always like the supporting characters better, you're probably doing it because you think you're being cool and edgy.

And none of the people I've seen say that were, in fact, fans of supporting characters who were POC or poor or LGBT (I can guarantee you that about the people I've seen say that, because I know who some of their faves and non-faves are), nor did they ever indicate this is what the issue is about. Because it wasn't.

[HardlyThere]

First off, that certainly doesn't explain people who do that with Cordelia, does it?

Secondly, when I say I've seen people say that, I mean I've actually seen people say that. No, it can't be down to "they want to see POC as the main character" because there are shows with POC as the main character, no, it can't be down to "they want to see poor people as the main characters" because there are shows about people struggling with poverty. And so on. So if that was their problem, they'd do and watch those shows. But if you're instead saying you always like the supporting characters better, you're probably doing it because you think you're being cool and edgy.

When was Cordy ever the main character?

Never did I say it was absolutes. I was referring specifically to the show in which the board is dedicated in the example given.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

When was Cordy ever the main character?

Never did I say it was absolutes. I was referring specifically to the show in which the board is dedicated in the example given.

Exactly! You implied that people prefer supporting characters because Buffy is a white, middle-class pretty cheerleader etc.
So why would that make them prefer Cordelia to Buffy?

[TimeTravellingBunny]

The show is full of tropes though. You've got the tweed wearing English cliché to contrast with the super cool Americans. ASH even has to change his voice for the part. In fact all English people are more or less like portrayed like that. Even when he was meant to have this Badboy ripper past he's the guy that gets knocked out in fights. Compared to say Xander who does quite well in them.
Joss admits that Nic Brendon was way to good looking for the role he was playing but its TV so get over it.
Buffy herself is in a Teen romance which was/is the Twilight style trope that other shows have copied. Essentially good looking people going out with each other Hell all the cast are good looking 20 somethings. Joss says that David Borenaz was hired because the women literally turned to puddles when he came into the room to audition.
I think it was Marti Noxon who commented on the difference between them and a real school when they shot a scene in a real school.

While Joss own Male fantasy character was Riley Finn. The tall good looking all American hero.

You had heroines before Buffy like Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley so that 80's horror genre trope (which thats all it was) of helpless girl was kind of done anyway.

And while Buffy subverted that trope at the same time he had other characters like Cordelia literally screaming for help and needing Buffy to save them a lot. Hell the first half of the Angel spin off is literally episodes of this big broody hero saving helpless women in Alleys. He even kind of admits that on the City of Commentary though he does it anyway.

Oh, come on! It's not like, once Alien was released in 1979, or The Terminator in 1984, the trope of helpless girls as horror movie victims disappeared, feminism started ruling Hollywood, and every female character became deep and layered and super competent. In fact, I'm pretty sure the slasher movies were in full swing after that. And I distinctly remember 1990s action movies where the female lead couldn't even run for her life if the male lead wasn't holding her hand.

[BtVS fan]

Thats a fair point it was happening after those movies . It was also happening on Buffy too

[flow]

One of the most common complaints about the show, particularly S1, is how dated it is.

Isn't is simply the obvious thing to say? I mean, the show is nearing its 25th anniversary. You needn't have watched it to shout out "It's dated," and you can be pretty sure you made a safe guess and have impressed everyone.

The only thing I find dated about BtVS is the CGI and the VFX. The Robot in I Robot, You Jane would look better today. Mind you, it wouldn't make him a better character nor would it make the story a better story but he would look better.

As for the rest - even a lot of the fashion Buffy wore still looks awesome today. Yes, there are some cringe-worthy outfits but most of it is still classy and looks good. The writing is sharp, the dialogues are witty, the characters still make people fall in love with them. That's one of the reasons I love to watch reactors. Look at those kids, born long after the show aired and how they start crying when Buffy comes home and finds Joyce's dead body on the sofa.

Overall the show still works. I watch Lucifer and it's also a great show but I can't see how and why (except for the CGI and the VFX) it is more up to date than Buffy is.

Of course, you do have the Kalderash being called gypsies. That's something that wouldn't happen today. But it happened in the late nineties. People called Roma gypsies back then. In so far the show is still historically accurate. If you made a tv show about the nineties today, you would have had your characters use the word gypsies because otherwise you simply get it wrong.

flow

[American Aurora]

Interesting thought, flow. Anachronisms in the past can sometimes cover up patterns of racism, I think. Like how musical lovers try to forget minstrelsy.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

It's not just that they call them Gypsies. They also used the stereotypes - magic, curses...

[TimeTravellingBunny]

Joss joked on the commentary that "Danish curse" wouldn't have sounded as good, and I'm like, actually it would, that would've been a great idea and it'd be funny.

[BtVS fan]

I think for non hardcore Buffy fans the dialogue can be a bit dated. Joss and his Whedon quips is a bit of a cliche nowadays. Whereas back then his dialogue was cutting edge and he was roundly praised for it.

The best comparison I can think of which non European football fans won't get is Jose Mourhino.
For those that aren't. He's a football/soccer manager who back in the day his tactics were cutting edge (though not exactly fun to watch) and won him lots of trophies all over Europe in different Leagues with different teams. He used to call himself The Special one amd fans used to love him and forgive him anything.
Then over time the other teams worked out how to play against him and those Tactics have gotten dated. They're known as Parking the Bus. But Jose didnt/hasn't changed. Even to this day he plays the same style of football/soccer.
Joss seems a bit like that albeit with his writing and dialogue. Maybe The Nevers will prove me wrong and I hope so but I'm sceptical I won't deny

[TriBel]

flow

I watch Lucifer and it's also a great show but I can't see how and why (except for the CGI and the VFX) it is more up to date than Buffy is.

I think Lucifer's gender/racial/sexual politics are more in keeping with today.

even a lot of the fashion Buffy wore still looks awesome today.

Possibly because we no longer have "fashion"...we have "style".

I'll be honest...I don't find BtVS "dated".

ETA...it's just occurred to me - I suspect I find little made after the mid 90s "dated"...I also suspect it's because we've lost a sense of history...history itself has become "style".

[vampmogs]

ETA...it's just occurred to me - I suspect I find little made after the mid 90s "dated"...I also suspect it's because we've lost a sense of history...history itself has become "style".

Honestly, I feel a lot of this has to do with the rise of the internet. For instance, I read a great study on why '90's kids' are finding it so difficult to move on from their childhood in comparison to previous generations and it was argued it's because 90's culture is still so readily available and celebrated on the net. We still have 90's fashions/media available at our finger tips whilst in previous generations, with the exception of reruns on TV, you had no choice but to move on and let your past be a distant memory. The internet doesn't let us forget. It's also why our "fashion" nowadays is mostly about looking back on previous decades and replicating it instead of creating a new style. The 2010's spent the last 4-5 years of the decade paying homage to the 90's whereas 60s/70s/80s/90s/00's had it's own style. Same for the endless reboots of past TV shows/movies.

Of course, I think the reason we also keep looking back is because the world is so incredibly unhappy and disillusioned with it's current state. The present/reality is too much for a lot of people so they long for seemingly more "simple" times.

[Silver1]

I think for non hardcore Buffy fans the dialogue can be a bit dated. Joss and his Whedon quips is a bit of a cliche nowadays. Whereas back then his dialogue was cutting edge and he was roundly praised for it.

Seriously? Compared to many shows running today I still think Buffy hold up and that the wit that is sprinkled through BTVS's dialogue to still works today and is on the whole is superior to a lot of similar shows. Trouble is I try watching these other shows and often find that their attempts at humour end up being leaden in comparison. BTVS is clever, something thats rare in TV today imo.