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How and when you consider Buffy found out Spike was alive after "Chosen" (B 7.22)?

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  • How and when you consider Buffy found out Spike was alive after "Chosen" (B 7.22)?

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * It doesn't seem Andrew Wells told Buffy that Spike was alive. Buffy very likely would have come to Los Angeles and seen Spike.


    SPOILERS FOR SEASON 8 and 'ANGEL SEASON 6' BELOW:



    Spoiler:
    Buffy didn't even seem to kiss anyone for over 1.5 years after "Chosen" (B 7.22). If she knew Spike was alive and available and if she knew he hadn't dated or 'moved on', she almost certainly would have contacted him. She would have preferred he be her Number 2 again.

    The only thing that ever made any sense to me is if that Twinkle thing actually happened and Buffy had seen it or at least was aware of it. Buffy would find out that not only was Spike alive but that he had had a relationship with this Maria Harley person. Buffy was hurt by Spike's merely showing up to the Xander/Anya wedding with a 'Drusilla'-like date.

    Buffy would find out that instead of contacting her and being with her that Spike had had a relationship with someone else. That would sting.

    Of course, by the time Season 8 begins, Spike/Maria aren't together anymore; so, Buffy could have Spike/Buffy/Angel fantasies. But Spike still hadn't contacted her. And Buffy wasn't sure Spike still was in love with her.





    EDIT: THREAD WILL INCLUDE SPOILERS FOR SEASON 8, SEASON 9, ETC.

    I consider post-Season 9 cannot be canon. But it seems almost certain Buffy/Spike would have happened after Season 9.
    Last edited by MikeB; 18-02-20, 07:41 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * It doesn't seem Andrew Wells told Buffy that Spike was alive. Buffy very likely would have come to Los Angeles and seen Spike.


    SPOILERS FOR SEASON 8 and 'ANGEL SEASON 6' BELOW:



    Spoiler:
    Buffy didn't even seem to kiss anyone for over 1.5 years after "Chosen" (B 7.22). If she knew Spike was alive and available and if she knew he hadn't dated or 'moved on', she almost certainly would have contacted him. She would have preferred he be her Number 2 again.

    The only thing that ever made any sense to me is if that Twinkle thing actually happened and Buffy had seen it or at least was aware of it. Buffy would find out that not only was Spike alive but that he had had a relationship with this Maria Harley person. Buffy was hurt by Spike's merely showing up to the Xander/Anya wedding with a 'Drusilla'-like date.

    Buffy would find out that instead of contacting her and being with her that Spike had had a relationship with someone else. That would sting.

    Of course, by the time Season 8 begins, Spike/Maria aren't together anymore; so, Buffy could have Spike/Buffy/Angel fantasies. But Spike still hadn't contacted her. And Buffy wasn't sure Spike still was in love with her.


    Well by TGIQ Spike is charging around Italy and knocking on her door etc. So by then he has no problem her knowing he is alive.

    Tbh Joss moved on quite quick when he brought Spike into S8, and he essentially provided exposition and transport then by the very end turned into BtVS S1 Angel albiet with a Space Ship and bugs.

    Just curious but Why do you think Joss broke them up off screen in S12 ?

    I'm pretty sure Buffy kissed Satsu and wasn't there another who she apologized to being a bit rough with before that though it's been awhile since Iv read them

    Whose Maria ?

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think that we necessarily need to give spoilers for S8 and AtF which were out so long ago, but as the thread question invites the inclusion of discussion of them perhaps adding in [includes comic spoilers] to the thread title would be best??

      So yes, comic spoilers and discussion follows...

      BtVS fan Maria is a character from the Spike AtF comics and Angel AtF, and is someone Spike had a casual relationship with (one that had a pretty urk starting point in Spike AtF from my pov, where he was prisoner to the group she was part of). There is nothing in text to suggest that Buffy found out about the notion that character later wrote romance books based on her relationship with Spike (which as I remember was a joke towards the Twilight films with the Twinkle titling of it, but I might be misremembering that).

      There was a reference in the Spike 8 comics I think it was from Willow to Spike about Buffy hearing about Spike's return and kicking down doors to find out what happened, or something along those lines. Although Joss wasn't involved in the overall story of those comics, we do know he oversaw Willow's use/scripting after offering use of her for getting the requested bug ship introduction included. So I just always accepted the idea that Buffy eventually found out about Spike's return on the grapevine somehow and stormed around a bit demanding to know what had happened, but then let it pass when she heard some summary of his return and work with Angel et al. He hadn't chosen to return to her after all. But a general assumption she found out some time towards the end of, or even shortly after, AtS 5 is reasonable I think.

      It makes sense to me that Buffy was unsure about Spike's ongoing feelings because he kept his return post Chosen secret and that this plays into her snippy/sarcastic response to him showing up at the end of S8. I think that works without her having had any idea of whether or not he had been dating other people since he died in the hellmouth.

      Comment


      • BtVS fan
        BtVS fan commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you. Your right. I'd forgotten about Maria. It's been awhile since I'd read them.

    • #4
      This:

      Stoney So I just always accepted the idea that Buffy eventually found out about Spike's return on the grapevine somehow and stormed around a bit demanding to know what had happened, but then let it pass when she heard some summary of his return and work with Angel et al. He hadn't chosen to return to her after all. But a general assumption she found out some time towards the end of, or even shortly after, AtS 5 is reasonable I think.
      I don't think he would necessarily have chosen to tell her at the time of TGIQ but events overtook him and he wouldn't let Angel have the upper-hand. We know she's been missing him (I always presume "that sex" to be a reference to Spike) but she has her pride (as Spike says of himself in Touched). I don't see her chasing after him as she did Riley, so the snippy first meeting makes sense.
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #5
        Not having read the comics, I have to say that Buffy being upset about Spike and Harmony or Maria is hypocritical unless she's been living as a nun - which she hasn't. Particularly since she went and had a space orgy with Twilight who killed a huge amount of slayers. Unless Buffy had the worst intelligence ever, she had to know Spike was alive after TGIQ, but she made no effort to contact him. Whatever problems Buffy had she did not hold the high ground.
        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

        Comment


        • #6
          Comics = Disregarded. I have always figured Andrew spilled the beans after Damage. I am guessing it was the original intent as Buffy was meant to show up the very next episode.

          Comment


          • #7
            Disclaimer : I don't regard the comics as canon and if we're strictly talking Buffy, I don't even really count Ats S5 either.

            In general, I am so content with what we got on the show that I'm not big on the post-Chosen speculating. So if I go from the Spike is alive perspective, I'll go with the very boring answer and say he eventually caves in and calls her/goes to see her. Soul or not, Spike is and will always be love's bitch, and I think he'd rather try and be disappointed than not try at all. Having him go all Heathcliff-y and brood over Buffy just doesn't feel right, at least not for an extended period of time.
            What a challenge, honesty
            What a struggle to learn to speak
            Who would've thought that pretending was easier

            Comment


            • #8
              I'm another who is ignoring the comics #notmycanon

              I imagine Buffy would have found out at some point during AtS S5. There's absolutely no way that Andrew could keep a secret that big so he either told another Scooby (who then told Buffy) or blabbed directly to Buffy herself.

              I can only imagine that this played into Buffy's abandonment issues ("open your heart up to someone and he bails on you") and Buffy chose not to seek Spike out knowing that he has been resurrected and had chosen not to tell her. I imagine this would've hurt her quite a bit and the fact that Angel also knew and both he and Spike were apparently working together in LA "behind her back" (Sanctuary has been on my brain a lot lately and IMO Buffy would totally perceive this as a betrayal the same way she did Angel protecting Faith) would've both angered, upset and confused her.

              I agree with HardlyThere that the original intention was obviously to have Buffy appear after Damage in the alt version of You're Welcome to patch things up with Angel over Andrew's double-cross and to put Angel back on track (as stated by the writers). It would have also inevitably included a resolution to the Buffy/Spike post-resurrection issue. But as SMG was unable to appear I find it easy to interpret Buffy as being insecure and hurt by the revelation Spike was alive and choosing to leave him be as he evidently wanted.
              - "The earth is doomed" -

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                Comics = Disregarded. I have always figured Andrew spilled the beans after Damage. I am guessing it was the original intent as Buffy was meant to show up the very next episode.
                I agree about the comics. I did read them and have since forgotten about them. I didn't find them that great. Hell even Joss said he'd have no trouble ignoring them if they did a Buffy movie/another show

                Leaving aside Andrew all those Slayers saw a Vampire with his arms hacked off wheeled away in an ambulance. That and Dana herself babbling about William the bloody. They would've said something.

                I did here that the original intention for TGIQ was for Dawn not Andrew but they couldn't get MT back so Tom Lenk is bk as substitute. It makes more sense having Dawn rather than Andrew at Buffys place that's for sure.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                  Disclaimer : I don't regard the comics as canon and if we're strictly talking Buffy, I don't even really count Ats S5 either.

                  In general, I am so content with what we got on the show that I'm not big on the post-Chosen speculating. So if I go from the Spike is alive perspective, I'll go with the very boring answer and say he eventually caves in and calls her/goes to see her. Soul or not, Spike is and will always be love's bitch, and I think he'd rather try and be disappointed than not try at all. Having him go all Heathcliff-y and brood over Buffy just doesn't feel right, at least not for an extended period of time.
                  Post Chosen we've got the episodes Damage/Shells and That Girl in Question that give information on the scooby gang. Tbh they don't do Giles any favours in Shells considering he blatantly refuses to send Willow to help Fred.

                  Damage has Buffy putting a load of girls under Andrew's care which just boggles my mind.

                  TGIQ seemed seemed more about JW being angry that SMG wouldn't come back for the 100th episode as much as anything "she's moved on and so should we" so we get a a passive aggressive character attack.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    I can see Buffy finding out from Andrew, getting angry about it and being talked down. It would all boil down to how long it was. I don't think we ever get a timeframe on how long after Conviction Damage takes place.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                      Post Chosen we've got the episodes Damage/Shells and That Girl in Question that give information on the scooby gang. Tbh they don't do Giles any favours in Shells considering he blatantly refuses to send Willow to help Fred.

                      Damage has Buffy putting a load of girls under Andrew's care which just boggles my mind.

                      TGIQ seemed seemed more about JW being angry that SMG wouldn't come back for the 100th episode as much as anything "she's moved on and so should we" so we get a a passive aggressive character attack.
                      Yeah which is honestly why I like to consider Chosen the last canon episode for the Buffy side of things. Too much stuff in Ats S5 reek of bts issues to the point where I'm completely taken out of the story, and everytime a Buffy character is mentioned or appears (70% of Spike's scenes), they feel like pod people to me.
                      What a challenge, honesty
                      What a struggle to learn to speak
                      Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




                        * Considering Season 8 not canon is asinine--Joss Whedon did it largely to tie in the Buffyverse with the Frayverse.

                        Season 9 has the
                        Spoiler:
                        abortion storyliine that Joss did.


                        And post-Season 9 has Joss approving of
                        Spoiler:
                        a relatively happy and romantic Buffy/Spike


                        And Season 12
                        Spoiler:
                        breaks up Buffy/Spike
                        .

                        Regarding After the Fall --most of the major stuff was in the rather detailed 'outline' that Joss Whedon wrote with Brian Lynch and that included Spider and
                        Spoiler:
                        Spike/Spider



                        IDW's Spike is curious given Joss Whedon approved all the Willow stuff and given how much of that would include
                        Spoiler:
                        the Spike/Dru stuff
                        .

                        After the Fall and Spike essentially makes Spike: Asylum canon and perhaps Spike: Shadow Puppets .



                        EDIT: A lot of the Buffyverse is because of actor availability and such.

                        Considering Angel S5 not canon is obviously directly opposed to fact.
                        Last edited by MikeB; 17-02-20, 03:57 PM.

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                        • BtVS fan
                          BtVS fan commented
                          Editing a comment
                          That abortion story or rather how he ended it was terrible. Such a pathetic cop out because he didnt have the balls to follow it through

                      • #14
                        I think she would have known in S5 of Angel, sometime after Damage .
                        ā€œ

                        I like who I am when Iā€™m with him. I like who we are together.ā€

                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
                          I think she would have known in S5 of Angel, sometime after Damage .
                          I'd agree with this. There is no way Dana could have kept any of what happened a secret and it would have gotten back to Buffy. It might not have made total sense, but Buffy's no fool and if she even thought for one moment that Spike was alive she's have rung W&H and there's no way Harmony wouldn't have gleefully spilled the beans.

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