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Best Crossover of the Buffy/Angel series ?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

    I actually think Whedon does the opposite with Buffy. She committed attempted murder and its brushed away. She also gets outs simply because the writing says so as shown in S7
    So you are claiming Faith is a victim? Congrats, the writing worked. Faith is no more a wronged party than the demons Angel killed in Earshot.

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    I think Whedon uses these characters to show that revenge and vengeance only destroy those who seek it. Holtz had a point two hundred years ago, but to keep the hatred in his heart and to do what he did to get revenge makes him a psychopath. Robin was carrying his childhood with him in a way that made him want to destroy someone who could have a chance of saving them all in the biggest fight they've ever seen, that is just stupidity and something his mother wouldn't want. I also don't think Holtz's daughter would want her father to chase the people who killed her over centuries.
    It doesn't stop there. You have the Faith storyline, which focuses on one act and ignores everything else. The Lie storyline. Revelations. Even his movies. There has to be a right in order to move on. Either make a character a nutter so someone can brood or make them apologize and everyone moves on. These are some of the weaker storylines of the show for me.

    On one hand, it's understandable because no matter how much people love to say they like 'shades of grey', they get really pressed if they aren't given outright answers. But for a what-they-need-not-what-they-want guy, he fails quite often.
    Last edited by HardlyThere; 02-12-19, 02:09 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
      So you are claiming Faith is a victim? Congrats, the writing worked. Faith is no more a wronged party than the demons Angel killed in Earshot.
      Except Faith isn't a demon and that's important in this universe. It's why Buffy goes all out to keep Willow from killing Andrew and Jonathan even after they were complicit in one actual attempted rape and a murder. It's why Willow is crippled by guilt for killing Warren. Whatever you feel about Faith, having Buffy decide to kill her to feed her to Angel, and not feel a jot of remorse for putting her in an irreversible coma is not compatible with the BTVS universe. And If slayers don't really count as fully human then it's okay that Spike killed two of them.
      Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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      • #33
        It doesn't stop there. You have the Faith storyline, which focuses on one act and ignores everything else. The Lie storyline. Revelations. Even his movies. There has to be a right in order to move on. Either make a character a nutter so someone can brood or make them apologize and everyone moves on. These are some of the weaker storylines of the show for me.

        On one hand, it's understandable because no matter how much people love to say they like 'shades of grey', they get really pressed if they aren't given outright answers. But for a what-they-need-not-what-they-want guy, he fails quite often.
        I think the whole point of the show, which is proved by us talking about it so many years later, is that Whedon did have a shades of grey approach, where there is right and wrong on both sides.If the show were simple and preachy about its values, we wouldn't be discussing it now because the good guys would always win and the bad guys would be too obvious to worry about (to paraphrase Giles). We do disagree about characters and motivations because they mostly take up space in the grey and are not completely good or completely bad. Bad people can do good things, can be victims, while good people can do awful things and be perpetrators.

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        • #34
          The crossover that really touched my heart was Angel visiting Buffy for Joyce's funeral. I loved the shot of his hand holding hers before revealing it was Angel.
          Made by Trickyboxes
          Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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          • #35
            The best crossover is FFL and ”Darla”. The episodes were intentionally made to be companions to one another (even if they work on their own), so I do consider them to be crossovers and the best crossovers at that. I also love “Five by Five” and “Sanctuary”. As for the rest...

            I love seeing these characters interact between the two shows so I don’t hate *any* crossover (and wish we could have seen more!), but I do think the majority of them were unnecessary. Outside of the scenes with Riley in “The Yoko Factor” and the flashbacks in “Fool for Love”, Angel’s appearances on BtVS never did anything for me. I think his S3 exit would have had more impact if he had just stayed gone completely. Or if they were going to bring him back, do what Willow from Buffy suggested and have him stay for a whole episode and meaningfully affect the plot instead of just fanservice-y cameos.

            His “Forever” appearance doesn’t do much for me either. It’s not like Buffy was there to comfort Angel when he lost Connor, so what’s the point of him being there to comfort her after losing Joyce? It’s so weird because the Angel crossover episodes (like “I Will Remember You” and “Sanctuary”) seemed designed to end/bring closure to the Bangel relationship, whereas the Buffy crossover episodes (like “Forever”, “End of Days” and “Chosen”) seemed designed to reinforce how much the flame between the two of them still flickers. It’s too weird and contradictory for me.

            “In the Dark” was average. It was nice to see Spike and Oz interacting with Angel, Cordy, and Doyle, but some things about the ep confuse me. How did Oz (and Spike) know where to find Angel? Based on “City Of”, Angel didn’t seem to be in touch with Buffy or anyone from Sunnydale. Likewise, based on the way that Cordy asks Oz about the Scoobies, it doesn’t sound like she still kept in contact with them either (at least, not at that particular time). So how did Oz know where to find their office?

            The crossovers in “Pangs” (a great episode on its own) and “I Will Remember You” was purely for ratings as it went absolutely nowhere. Angel appeared on BtVS in a plot that went nowhere and only existed to set up Buffy’s appearance on AtS -- which also went nowhere. The plot of IWRY made no sense. Neither the Mohra demon or Angel’s sacrifice for Buffy’s life are ever mentioned or relevant to the story again. Angel’s decision to tell Buffy he decided to take the day back also made no sense. The scene -- as amazing as it was -- existed purely to torture the audience (and apparently SMG). It was all contrived drama to appeal to the fans, but it worked out so

            I liked Willow’s cameos in “Disharmony” and “There’s No Place Like Plrtz Glrb”. And contrary to popular opinion, I *loved* her appearance in “Orpheus”. “Orpheus” is the polar opposite of “Pangs” in that it wasn’t a great episode but the crossover element was great. Willow’s presence - much like Faith’s - allowed for a breath of fresh air during such an intense season of Angel. Also like Faith, Willow fit into the universe of Angel well and never felt as out-of-place as Buffy did in her appearances. Her interactions with Wesley, Fred, Angel, and even Evil-Cordy were great to me. I quite like the way she talks about her time as ‘ultimate evil’. She had a downward spiral (like every other character on the show), but she bounced back from it and has now mastered her power. It’s completely contradictory to her concurrent Season 7 issues, but she’s way more entertaining here so I’m not going to complain and act like I hate the characterization.

            Alyson Hannigan’s acting in “Orpheus” is also much better than it was throughout much of Buffy S7. I don’t know if it was due to her husband’s presence or due to the fact that she was able to play something other than ‘broken Willow’ or ‘power-hungry junkie Willow’, but she steals every scene she’s in. She portrays a mature but still youthfully playful and awkward version of Willow and I’d like to imagine it’s how Willow’s personality becomes all of the time post-“Chosen” once she’s gotten back her confidence and control of her power.

            Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
            It doesn't stop there. You have the Faith storyline, which focuses on one act and ignores everything else. The Lie storyline. Revelations. Even his movies. There has to be a right in order to move on. Either make a character a nutter so someone can brood or make them apologize and everyone moves on. These are some of the weaker storylines of the show for me.
            I can sort of see your point with how there was often a clear agenda in terms of who was supposed to be “right” during conflicts in the show(s), as well as stuff getting resolved or dropped too easily, but I don’t think that means Whedon was completely incapable of writing duel perspectives and complex dynamics. For the most part, I think the total opposite.

            I thought the disintegration of Angel and Wesley’s relationship throughout the series was extremely complex and full of duel perspectives. Wes kidnapped his son but Angel also tried to kill him and wiped his memory. As a result of this, they aren’t on very good terms by the end of Season 5 -- but it wasn’t just one person’s fault. Both of them were complicit in the destruction of that friendship.

            Up until the AR happens, the Buffy/Spike relationship in Season 6 could also be analyzed from duel perspectives as both of them behaved pretty terribly.
            Last edited by Andrew S.; 04-12-19, 05:51 PM.

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            • #36
              Andrew S.

              “In the Dark” was average. It was nice to see Spike and Oz interacting with Angel, Cordy, and Doyle, but some things about the ep confuse me. How did Oz (and Spike) know where to find Angel? Based on “City Of”, Angel didn’t seem to be in touch with Buffy or anyone from Sunnydale. Likewise, based on the way that Cordy asks Oz about the Scoobies, it doesn’t sound like she still kept in contact with them either (at least, not at that particular time). So how did Oz know where to find their office?
              Phone book? It is called Angel investigations, run by Angel. They're looking for customers so they have to be laying themselves out there.
              Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by bespangled View Post
                Phone book? It is called Angel investigations, run by Angel. They're looking for customers so they have to be laying themselves out there.
                I didn't know the LA phone books were so up to date that they would have the address of an unlicensed sleuth who set up his business two weeks ago.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Andrew S. View Post
                  The best crossover is FFL and ”Darla”. The episodes were intentionally made to be companions to one another (even if they work on their own), so I do consider them to be crossovers and the best crossovers at that. I also love “Five by Five” and “Sanctuary”. As for the rest...

                  I love seeing these characters interact between the two shows so I don’t hate *any* crossover (and wish we could have seen more!), but I do think the majority of them were unnecessary. Outside of the scenes with Riley in “The Yoko Factor” and the flashbacks in “Fool for Love”, Angel’s appearances on BtVS never did anything for me. I think his S3 exit would have had more impact if he had just stayed gone completely. Or if they were going to bring him back, do what Willow from Buffy suggested and have him stay for a whole episode and meaningfully affect the plot instead of just fanservice-y cameos.

                  His “Forever” appearance doesn’t do much for me either. It’s not like Buffy was there to comfort Angel when he lost Connor, so what’s the point of him being there to comfort her after losing Joyce? It’s so weird because the Angel crossover episodes (like “I Will Remember You” and “Sanctuary”) seemed designed to end/bring closure to the Bangel relationship, whereas the Buffy crossover episodes (like “Forever”, “End of Days” and “Chosen”) seemed designed to reinforce how much the flame between the two of them still flickers. It’s too weird and contradictory for me.

                  “In the Dark” was average. It was nice to see Spike and Oz interacting with Angel, Cordy, and Doyle, but some things about the ep confuse me. How did Oz (and Spike) know where to find Angel? Based on “City Of”, Angel didn’t seem to be in touch with Buffy or anyone from Sunnydale. Likewise, based on the way that Cordy asks Oz about the Scoobies, it doesn’t sound like she still kept in contact with them either (at least, not at that particular time). So how did Oz know where to find their office?

                  The crossovers in “Pangs” (a great episode on its own) and “I Will Remember You” was purely for ratings as it went absolutely nowhere. Angel appeared on BtVS in a plot that went nowhere and only existed to set up Buffy’s appearance on AtS -- which also went nowhere. The plot of IWRY made no sense. Neither the Mohra demon or Angel’s sacrifice for Buffy’s life are ever mentioned or relevant to the story again. Angel’s decision to tell Buffy he decided to take the day back also made no sense. The scene -- as amazing as it was -- existed purely to torture the audience (and apparently SMG). It was all contrived drama to appeal to the fans, but it worked out so

                  I liked Willow’s cameos in “Disharmony” and “There’s No Place Like Plrtz Glrb”. And contrary to popular opinion, I *loved* her appearance in “Orpheus”. “Orpheus” is the polar opposite of “Pangs” in that it wasn’t a great episode but the crossover element was great. Willow’s presence - much like Faith’s - allowed for a breath of fresh air during such an intense season of Angel. Also like Faith, Willow fit into the universe of Angel well and never felt as out-of-place as Buffy did in her appearances. Her interactions with Wesley, Fred, Angel, and even Evil-Cordy were great to me. I quite like the way she talks about her time as ‘ultimate evil’. She had a downward spiral (like every other character on the show), but she bounced back from it and has now mastered her power. It’s completely contradictory to her concurrent Season 7 issues, but she’s way more entertaining here so I’m not going to complain and act like I hate the characterization.

                  Alyson Hannigan’s acting in “Orpheus” is also much better than it was throughout much of Buffy S7. I don’t know if it was due to her husband’s presence or due to the fact that she was able to play something other than ‘broken Willow’ or ‘power-hungry junkie Willow’, but she steals every scene she’s in. She portrays a mature but still youthfully playful and awkward version of Willow and I’d like to imagine it’s how Willow’s personality becomes all of the time post-“Chosen” once she’s gotten back her confidence and control of her power.



                  I can sort of see your point with how there was often a clear agenda in terms of who was supposed to be “right” during conflicts in the show(s), as well as stuff getting resolved or dropped too easily, but I don’t think that means Whedon was completely incapable of writing duel perspectives and complex dynamics. For the most part, I think the total opposite.

                  I thought the disintegration of Angel and Wesley’s relationship throughout the series was extremely complex and full of duel perspectives. Wes kidnapped his son but Angel also tried to kill him and wiped his memory. As a result of this, they aren’t on very good terms by the end of Season 5 -- but it wasn’t just one person’s fault. Both of them were complicit in the destruction of that friendship.

                  Up until the AR happens, the Buffy/Spike relationship in Season 6 could also be analyzed from duel perspectives as both of them behaved pretty terribly.
                  I semi agree. The duel perspectives for Buffy and Spike was unintentional. It was meant to be the abusive boyfriend leading Buffy astray but they screwed up and it seemed like the abusive girlfriend instead.
                  As for Angel's memory wipe, Wes never calls him out on it. It's more played about him focusing on the fake memories to endure it but he never confronts Angel over it.

                  One crossover that always felt odd to me was Cordy on the phone to Willow in Disharmony. That I thought she was just a big lesbo line felt so out of place and forced. Not a fan of it.

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                  • #39
                    Forgot to mention, but I did love that mini-crossover we got in "The Freshman" and "City Of", with Angel's phone call and Buffy imagining him at The Bronze. That was great.

                    Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                    I semi agree. The duel perspectives for Buffy and Spike was unintentional. It was meant to be the abusive boyfriend leading Buffy astray but they screwed up and it seemed like the abusive girlfriend instead.
                    The duel perspectives for Buffy and Spike *were* intentional. I know the writers seemed to have very conflicting views on the relationship that resulted in some inconsistent writing but for the most part, it was the complex but realistic toxic relationship that they intended it to be. It was meant to be both the abusive boyfriend *and* the abusive girlfriend, not just one or the other. That was the whole point of the relationship. Not only was Buffy sleeping with a monster, but she was becoming a monster herself. It was deliberate on the writers’ part. In “Conversations with Dead People”, Buffy explicitly says: “The last guy I was with, it got really… I behaved like a monster, treated him like… But at the same time, I-I let him completely take me over.”

                    Spike also treats Buffy badly and does - as she put it - ‘take her over’. He constantly gaslights and manipulates her, telling her she 'came back wrong’, and tries to pull her away from her loved ones during a very vulnerable period of her life.

                    Pre-AR, I think Buffy and Spike’s relationship was extremely complex. You could identify with both characters and see how they were both to blame for how bad it was. But then the AR happened and I lost all sympathy towards Spike because I don’t think anything that Buffy did to him was on the same level or warranted that kind of reaction.

                    Originally posted by BtVS fan
                    As for Angel's memory wipe, Wes never calls him out on it. It's more played about him focusing on the fake memories to endure it but he never confronts Angel over it.
                    Even though Wes never fully calls Angel out on the mindwipe, it is definitely something that affected him (despite his best attempt to pretend otherwise). His discovery of the mindwipe is a huge part of his breakdown and dissolution with reality that is present in the last few episodes. The revelation that the past two years of his life were essentially a lie likely played a part in Wesley’s instinct to accept/crave Illyria’s Lie in his death scene. Angel did a lot of damage to Wesley’s psyche (and honestly, everyone else’s) with the mindwipe. And likewise, Wes did a lot of damage to Angel’s psyche (and Connor’s) with his actions in S3.

                    In addition to the fact that they both did so much damage to each other, both Angel and Wes had huge egos. This resulted in the two of them never sitting down and really discussing their issues with one another so that their relationship can heal. So I think it’s both of their faults.

                    Originally posted by BtVS fan
                    One crossover that always felt odd to me was Cordy on the phone to Willow in Disharmony. That I thought she was just a big lesbo line felt so out of place and forced. Not a fan of it.
                    Yeah, I didn't like the line either but I'm fond of the scene simply for showing Cordy and Willow keeping in touch. It also establishes Willow in her role as the link of contact between the two shows.
                    Last edited by Andrew S.; 05-12-19, 07:37 PM.

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                    • #40
                      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




                      The Angel crossovers to BtVS are really about Buffy/Spike.:



                      * "Pangs" (B 4.09):

                      Willow and Xander automatically assume Angel's evil. Giles's isn't okay with how Angel is treating the Buffy/Angel relationship. Angel is literally on the outside looking in.

                      Spike's invited into Giles's home. Willow already has a connection with Spike because of "The Initiative" (B 4.07). Giles is automatically interested in Spike's knowledge. Buffy/Spike furthers. Spike is a fount of wisdom.



                      * "Something Blue" (B 4.09):

                      Buffy's seriously considering dating Spike and only doesn't because of how Buffy/Spike was during the My Will Be Done spell.

                      "SB" happens after "I Will Remember You" (A 1.08) and is far more positive about Buffy/Spike than "IWRY" is about Buffy/Angel.



                      * "The Yoko Factor" (B 4.20):

                      Angel relatively barely beats Enhanced Riley in a fight. Angel and Enhanced Riley combined is shown as clearly inferior to a still-bruised Buffy. Buffy and Angel 'make up', but Buffy and Angel have barely any interaction after "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22). Buffy and Spike are around each other in BtVS S4-BtVS S7.

                      Spike demonstrates he knows Buffy's friends fairly well.



                      * "Forever" (B 5.17):

                      Angel's not wearing the Gem of Amarra is not addressed. It's pro-Buffy/Angel in that Riley is still gone and Buffy/Spike isn't physical yet. But then "Intervention" (B 5.18) happens. Buffy literally tells Giles that she feels she's losing her ability to love and that she's not sure Joyce knew Buffy loved her. So, how intimidate was Buffy/Angel in "Forever" really?

                      Buffy's trying to help herself by being close to Angel. But Spike actually helps Dawn and Buffy.

                      "Intervention" (B 5.18). Given BtVS S6-S9 (and even S10-S12), the love the Guide tells Buffy about is Buffy's love for Spike.

                      And Buffy already in "Blood Ties" (B 5.13) is beginning to confide in Spike much more than she confided in Angel.



                      * "Life Serial" (B 6.05):

                      The Buffy/Angel meeting didn't go well. Buffy doesn't object when Spike refers to her as "my lady".



                      * "End of Days" (B 7.21) and "Chosen" (B 7.22):

                      Buffy basks in Angel's presence. It's arguable that doesn't even favorably compare to Buffy in "Lessons" (B 7.01) regarding Spike. Buffy no-tongue kisses Angel. It's effectively canon that Buffy has sex with Spike in BtVS S7. Angel literally smells Spike on Buffy--further implying Buffy/Spike had sex after "Get It Done" (B 7.15).

                      It's not a fair comparison given the limitations of Buffy/Angel, given Buffy and Co. are used to Spike, and given Spike's connection to the First Evil. But Buffy does give Angel 'the brush off' and shoos him away in favor of Spike. And it's effectively canon Angel knows it.



                      * Season 8:

                      In Twilight, Buffy literally wraps herself in Spike's clothes, she wears a white long-sleeve with a huge Union Jack on it and tells Angel
                      Spoiler:
                      she wouldn't have had sex with Angel had Spike merely been around. Then Buffy is fantasizing about sex with Spike. And then there's Season 9 and post-Season in which Buffy/Spike becomes long-term again.

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