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How well would Gunn do against Angel in a fight? How well againt non-chipped Spike?

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  • How well would Gunn do against Angel in a fight? How well againt non-chipped Spike?

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * This is largely for my http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...B-WR-amp-H-etc thread, as I still don't know how to rank the non-magical human characters--specifically non-Enhanced Riley Finn, Charles Gunn, and Robin Wood.

    I don't think Charles Gunn would do as well as Enhanced Riley Finn did against Angel in "The Yoko Factor" (B 4.20).

    Gunn seemed to think he possibly could beat Angel in a fight--or at least both Gunn and Angel pretended Gunn could beat Angel in a fight.

    Gunn was still alive at the end of "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22), although he's severely injured.


    * Gunn in "Just Rewards" (A 5.02) seemed to think he could fight Spike, although we don't even know what Gunn knew about Spike (that Spike killed 2 Slayers, etc.). I don't know if Gunn is a better fighter than Robin Wood. Both were killing vampires and Wood was doing it alone--not in a 'gang'. Wood is formally trained while Gunn was literally trained 'on the streets'.

  • #2
    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * This is largely for my http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...B-WR-amp-H-etc thread, as I still don't know how to rank the non-magical human characters--specifically non-Enhanced Riley Finn, Charles Gunn, and Robin Wood.

    I don't think Charles Gunn would do as well as Enhanced Riley Finn did against Angel in "The Yoko Factor" (B 4.20).

    Gunn seemed to think he possibly could beat Angel in a fight--or at least both Gunn and Angel pretended Gunn could beat Angel in a fight.

    Gunn was still alive at the end of "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22), although he's severely injured.


    * Gunn in "Just Rewards" (A 5.02) seemed to think he could fight Spike, although we don't even know what Gunn knew about Spike (that Spike killed 2 Slayers, etc.). I don't know if Gunn is a better fighter than Robin Wood. Both were killing vampires and Wood was doing it alone--not in a 'gang'. Wood is formally trained while Gunn was literally trained 'on the streets'.
    Gunn was dying. Its stated in the text by Illryia and in Joss extra textual.
    He has fought Gunn before in Shroud and it's clearly been shown Angel as the more powerful.

    Spikes strength levels change episode to episode. Yes he won that won fight (which the writers only changed at the last second) but Angel beats him easily in In the Dark and then as a Puppet in Smile Time plus he literally manhandled him in NFA.
    Last edited by BtVS fan; 16-10-19, 02:28 PM.

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    • #3
      I don’t think it’s a question of strength or power but more a question of how fast Gunn is. If they both would use only fists Angel would easily win. But if Gunn has got a stake he just has to aim right and push fast and Angel is gone just like any other vampire. Gunn has done it before in many fights with a lot of vampires who weren’t as strong as Angel but still much stronger than Gunn is.

      flow
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      • #4
        I agree with flow. Gunn could beat Angel, but only if he's faster and smarter. It makes me think of Buffy telling Luke the sun had come up when she smashes a window, to get him off guard. Or Buffy fighting Caleb, though she didn't beat him, she avoided getting hit.

        I don't think Gunn would stand a chance in a punch for punch fight with either Angel or Spike.

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        • #5
          All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




          * If Charles Gunn 'stands a chance' against Angel, that would put him above non-Enhanced Riley Finn. That would maybe put him above Robin Wood.


          * This isn't an Angel vs. Spike debate thread, but comparing Angel in "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22) to Spike in "Not Fade Away" is asinine when giving that as somehow evidence that non-Drogyn enhanced Angel is superior to Spike.

          Moreover, if the After the Fall stuff is canon, Spike arguably did much better in the fight than Angel did--given Spike didn't have a sword to begin with and given Angel
          Spoiler:
          essentially simply rides 'Cordelia dragon'.

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          • #6
            I don't think Gunn would stand a chance, honestly. After all, there's a reason why they had to break Faith out of prison in "Salvage" to hunt down and defeat Angelus.

            I adore "Not Fade Away" but it has always really bothered me that Gunn survived against so many vampires. They went overboard in that scene. Gunn is not a Slayer and there's no way he should have been able to survive against so many vampires attacking him all at once.

            Unless Gunn got extremely lucky I don't think he would have lasted 5 minutes against either Angel or Spike. He's a formidable fighter but Angel is just too fast and too powerful.
            "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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            • #7
              Gunn has an edge against most vampires, because most vampires don't really fight much, and they don't expect mortals to know how to fight back. Most vampires avoid fights. They seduce their victims and bring them to secluded places where their superior strength allows them to kill them before the victim has an opportunity to defend themselves.

              If you're an immortal vampire who's killed scores of humans, you don't expect a trained demon fighter to jump you with Assassins' Creed style wrist-stakes.

              Spike has always been picking fights with mobs, slayers and demons. Angel starts fighting demons when he comes to Sunnydale. You can see that he is a much better fighter in S3 than he is in S1 and 2.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                Gunn was dying. Its stated in the text by Illryia and in Joss extra textual.
                He has fought Gunn before in Shroud and it's clearly been shown Angel as the more powerful.

                Spikes strength levels change episode to episode. Yes he won that won fight (which the writers only changed at the last second) but Angel beats him easily in In the Dark and then as a Puppet in Smile Time plus he literally manhandled him in NFA.
                I think Angel beating Spike in season one and losing to Spike in season five just shows how much Spike has improved. As for Smile Time, puppet Angel refused to give Spike a car. Then they went in the elevator and when the doors opened Spike looked like he lost the fight, but Angel let him have the car. I don't think we can count that as a real win for Angel. OTH, back in the sub Angel treated Spike like luggage, grabbing him, moving him, ordering him around and Spike just took it for granted.

                Originally posted by flow View Post
                I don’t think it’s a question of strength or power but more a question of how fast Gunn is. If they both would use only fists Angel would easily win. But if Gunn has got a stake he just has to aim right and push fast and Angel is gone just like any other vampire. Gunn has done it before in many fights with a lot of vampires who weren’t as strong as Angel but still much stronger than Gunn is.

                flow
                Gunn has never and will never be able to win a fight against Angel. Vampires have no reaosn to be loyal to vamps from outside their Order. In fact, killing off vampires who are making a nuisance of themselves would be the way to protect the food supply. So Angel has a few centuries of fighting vamps that are stronger and faster than Gunn.
                Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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                • #9
                  But vamps usually do not fight with stakes. That is the only advantage Gunn would have in a fight against Angel. I do agree though that he can only win with a lot of luck on his side.

                  flow
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                  • #10
                    All caught up.

                    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.





                    * The thread so far has me considering Charles Gunn should be placed above non-Enhanced Riley Finn. But I still don’t know if he should be placed above Robin Wood.




                    BtVS fan


                    * I wrote: “Gunn was still alive at the end of "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22), although he's severely injured.” Gunn would have likely survived had he gone to the hospital instead of continued to fight.

                    Spikes strength levels change episode to episode. Yes he won that won fight (which the writers only changed at the last second) but Angel beats him easily in In the Dark and then as a Puppet in Smile Time plus he literally manhandled him in NFA.
                    Angel was filled with Drogyn power in “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22). Comparing Spike vs. Angel in “Not Fade Away” is similarly silly as comparing Buffy vs. Drusilla in “Lie to Me” (B 2.07).

                    Angel was injured in “In the Dark” (A 1.03) and Spike was not. “Angel beats him easily” is erroneous.

                    I consider the puppet example silly. Would posters have preferred Spike simply hold Puppet Angel’s body and rip Puppet Angel’s head off?



                    flow

                    * Angel has super-speed. It’s very unlikely Gunn could “fight faster” than Angel can unless Angel was already drugged or injured or whatever. Even still, a barely ambulatory Angel ‘manhandles’ Connor.



                    Priceless

                    * Gunn isn’t Buffy. It’s implied in “Touched” (B 7.20) that Buffy has at least a level of super-speed and that’s how she avoids Caleb’s punches.



                    vampmogs

                    * Angel had Winifred Burkle on patrols. Cordelia Chase was a demon killer before even being part-demon. I didn’t have a problem with how Charles Gunn performs in “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22).

                    Most real fights don’t last 5 minutes. They end generally when one person gets enough good blows in or even one great blow.

                    I’m simply trying to compare non-Enhanced Riley Finn, Charles Gunn, and Robin Wood.

                    I’m leaning toward having Charles Gunn above non-Enhanced Riley Finn, but I’m still not sure about Robin Wood.

                    Robin Wood has more formal training than Gunn. And Robin was actively trying to kill the vampire that killed his mother Nikki Wood.



                    Willow from Buffy

                    * The vampires we generally see in BtVS and Angel know that the Slayer is in Sunnydale (and then the Slayer (and Slayer) and then the Slayer and Spike are in Sunnydale) and the vampires know that Angel is in Los Angeles (and then Angel and Connor are in Los Angeles). Almost all vampires try to avoid such vampire killers as Buffy, Faith, Spike, Angel, and Connor. The human vampire killer is infinitesimally rare. In the Buffyverse there are: Daniel Holtz, Robin Wood, and Charles Gunn. I’m not even sure if non-Enhanced Riley Finn counts. And then there are those other non-supernatural humans in the Scooby and Fang Gangs and most of those are supernatural through magic use.



                    bespangled

                    * Angel is mostly a fraidy-cat in BtVS S1 and BtVS S2. He doesn’t start much fighting until BtVS S3. He had Buffy blood in “Graduation Day Part II” (B 3.22) and after—he seems considerably more powerful after drinking from Buffy.

                    Angel has not been fighting vampires for centuries. Angel and Darla ran away across continents scared of Daniel Holtz.
                    Last edited by MikeB; 31-10-19, 03:05 PM. Reason: copied and pasted too much.

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                    • #11
                      Angel and Darla led Holtz on a merry chase - they certainly did not spend years running away from him. They let him get just close enough to believe he had a chance, and then ran off laughing.

                      I noticed Spike was being left out of the equation, and I think Gunn is even less likely to win a fight against Spike. Angel tends to fight with raw power. Spike doesn't have that physical presence so he makes do with speed, creativity and unpredictability. Since Gunn has no knowledge of Spke's fighting skill I suspect he would seriously underestimate Spike.
                      Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                      Comment

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