Would Xander have been a better fit for AtS?

[ghoststar]

Watching the post-high school seasons of BtVS, I get the feeling that the writers weren't sure how to fit Xander's problems in with the show's themes. Which, I guess, would be fine if there was supposed to be a juxtaposition of personal issues (rather than powers), but it's like tossing in a major key in a minor-key song: Do it with caution.

That's not to say that all Xander's episodes post-S3 are bad, exactly. Seasons 4-5 rehash the same developments (Xander realizes he's ready to commit to a woman; Xander has an epiphany regarding his competence) in different settings, something that does happen with real-life people. The problem is that, without also giving him new developments, the only way to keep making drama is to keep erasing his growth. Season 6 essentially returns him to who he was in the earliest seasons, only, y'know, without the part where he was moving forward, like a shark, but with feet and much less fins.

Now, I'm not saying that you can ever completely bleach out the way Xander's abusive upbringing colors his worldview, but, at least in situations where he has time to think things through, Xander has gained the ability to make reasonable decisions (by Hellmouth standards anyway). He came to realize that Cordelia didn't owe him a second chance; why can't he do the same with Anya? He supported Buffy through the Parker drama; why does he slut-shame her for Spike? As early as season 2, he girded his loins and told Giles that his dabbling in magic was behind the female population's temporary derangement. Why does it take him so long to come clean about summoning Sweet?

BtVS is a coming-of-age drama, which makes Xander's retrograde development in later seasons stand out. It's discordant, and would probably need a lot of time devoted to it for it to feel right for the show. OTOH, Angel is full of characters who keep making the same mistakes for the same reasons. Every few months, Angel gets a revelation about how-- shockingly-- the right thing to do would be the right thing; every time, he forgets it. Half the things Wes does, including kidnapping Angel's son, seem influenced by his belief that all father figures are inevitable abusers. Gunn keeps trying to protect people by being tougher and meaner than they are (think killing the professor instead of letting Fred do it herself), and being tougher and meaner keeps hurting them. By the we reach time the series' last major arc, every there are no remaining team members able to cope with their pasts. If there had been, IMO, Angel's Circle of the Black Thorn scheme would never have gotten off the ground.

Granted, they're not just being brats. W&H loads the dice by seeking out their deepest temptations and weaknesses. It's a sustained moral assault of a kind that doesn't happen on BtVS. Nonetheless, it does tamp down on their development. If BtVS is about achieving maturity, Angel is about constrained maturity.

This is why I think that, in the absence of a plan for Xander's growth, his character would've been better-served by being on Angel. He would've stood out less, and the constant interference by W&H might've provided a narrative justification for his backsliding. Of course, I could be wrong, and maybe the move to Angel would just have enabled lazy writing. Thoughts?

[Stoney]

I think Xander provides great contrast to the superpowered Scoobs and really love the way the troubles that he faces are sometimes the same and other times similar to them but provide a different angle for contrast at times too. There are points when he is facing life challenges from a different direction and is faring better as well. I don't see him backsliding especially and do think that people can be held down by issues that rise repeatedly and have to be faced more than once. Often it gives weight to the problem itself. Having Xander's journey to both mirror and also give contrast just gives breadth and variation to the idea of growth and growing up to me. Standing out as having a different direction but seeing how they still relate to each other and where it makes things difficult too enriches BtVS again for having Xander's story in the mix I think.

[MikeB]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



* The answer is "No.". The only reason Xander's important in BtVS S1-S3 is because of his loyalty to Buffy and Willow and he caused conflict with Buffy/Angel. After the "high school years", his biggest contribution is keeping Anya around.


* Cordelia Chase got accepted to Columbia University and she had great SAT scores. She needed the Visions to remain important. AtS s4 essentially did a ret-con by making Cordelia's position in the Fang Gang seem vastly superior to what it actually was in previous seasons. WESLEY became Team Leader not Cordelia. Cordelia also was important because of her relationship with Angel.


* Winifred Burkle brought a science angle. Charles Gunn brought "muscle". By AtS S5, Fred had to become Illyria and Gunn had to become a super lawyer. Both were used to show how Corporate America can corrupt people.


* Xander as a new character would be absolutely useless to Angel. So, Xander would need to head for the spin-off. Nicholas Brendan--of the cast in BtVS S1-BtVS S5--was "2" and the second-best paid in terms of salary in BtVS. I don't see Nicholas Brendan taking a pay-cut or why the WB would accept such salaries or why Mutant Enemy would want Xander in Angel .


* Essentially, both Xander and Cordelia could have died after "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) and the Buffyverse wouldn't be too hurt. Angel would have been much better with Eliza Dushku as second lead. Or have Eliza Dushku in BtVS. Nicholas Brendan was the worst return on investment for BtVS given how much more popular other characters are.

[BtVS fan]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



* The answer is "No.". The only reason Xander's important in BtVS S1-S3 is because of his loyalty to Buffy and Willow and he caused conflict with Buffy/Angel. After the "high school years", his biggest contribution is keeping Anya around.


* Cordelia Chase got accepted to Columbia University and she had great SAT scores. She needed the Visions to remain important. AtS s4 essentially did a ret-con by making Cordelia's position in the Fang Gang seem vastly superior to what it actually was in previous seasons. WESLEY became Team Leader not Cordelia. Cordelia also was important because of her relationship with Angel.


* Winifred Burkle brought a science angle. Charles Gunn brought "muscle". By AtS S5, Fred had to become Illyria and Gunn had to become a super lawyer. Both were used to show how Corporate America can corrupt people.


* Xander as a new character would be absolutely useless to Angel. So, Xander would need to head for the spin-off. Nicholas Brendan--of the cast in BtVS S1-BtVS S5--was "2" and the second-best paid in terms of salary in BtVS. I don't see Nicholas Brendan taking a pay-cut or why the WB would accept such salaries or why Mutant Enemy would want Xander in Angel .


* Essentially, both Xander and Cordelia could have died after "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) and the Buffyverse wouldn't be too hurt. Angel would have been much better with Eliza Dushku as second lead. Or have Eliza Dushku in BtVS. Nicholas Brendan was the worst return on investment for BtVS given how much more popular other characters are.

I agree so much with this. No Xander would've been an even worse fit on Ats than post S3 Buffy imo where the writers were struggling for things for him to do besides giving Nic Brendon a pay cheque

[Sosa lola]

The last thing AtS needs is another male character. I think Xander works much better on BtVS, but the writers clearly lost interest in the character, because there are plenty of loose ends that were not solved, and S10 of BtVS proves that Xander can have a much bigger role to the plot. The writers were just not that interested during the later seasons. Even if someone would mention NB's alcoholism, we still got a semi-Xander centric episode "First Date" which could have been used to give us something deeper about Xander instead rehashing old tired storylines. Maybe have him lose his eye there, so we could see how it affects his life in the rest of the episodes.

[BtVS fan]

The last thing AtS needs is another male character. I think Xander works much better on BtVS, but the writers clearly lost interest in the character, because there are plenty of loose ends that were not solved, and S10 of BtVS proves that Xander can have a much bigger role to the plot. The writers were just not that interested during the later seasons. Even if someone would mention NB's alcoholism, we still got a semi-Xander centric episode "First Date" which could have been used to give us something deeper about Xander instead rehashing old tired storylines. Maybe have him lose his eye there, so we could see how it affects his life in the rest of the episodes.

I dont think even Cordy really fitted on the show until Doyle died and she took his place. The only other option is Wesley but Alexis Denisof is far better actor that Nick Brendon

[Sosa lola]

I dont think even Cordy really fitted on the show until Doyle died and she took his place. The only other option is Wesley but Alexis Denisof is far better actor that Nick Brendon

I don't see it because Wesley is the ex-watcher book smart character, and that’s not Xander. If Xander was supposed to be on the show, I could see him replacing Gunn. Gunn kinda played the Xander role on the show, someone dear to him got turned and he had to stake them, major trust issues with Angel, lack of purpose and direction in S5.

[ghoststar]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc. Essentially, both Xander and Cordelia could have died after "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22) and the Buffyverse wouldn't be too hurt. Angel would have been much better with Eliza Dushku as second lead. Or have Eliza Dushku in BtVS. Nicholas Brendan was the worst return on investment for BtVS given how much more popular other characters are.

Well, my Buffvyerse wouldn't have been too hurt, because I'm not a huge fan of Xander or Cordy in the first place, and they don't do anything post-"Graduation Day" that other characters couldn't. And I agree that Faith would've been a terrific second lead for Angel. But I can understand if the writers worried about Xander and Cordy fans feeling cheated by an abrupt exit, and I don't know if that Eliza Dushku was interested in a regular TV role when Angel premiered. She pursued later TV work (Tru Calling; Dollhouse), but she wouldn't be the first person who didn't keep the same career goals she had at 18.

[Sosa lola]

I'm afraid the show would totally lose me if Xander wasn't in it. The reason I watched the show in first place was Xander. The reason I was obsessed with the show and reading fanfics based on the show is Xander. So the writers did the right thing in my book. On the other hand, I'm not a huge Faith fan, and she feels like such a cliche character to me. Talk about different tastes.

[Stoney]

I've really come to appreciate Xander through discussing his role/story in he rewatch. He wasn't a favourite at first but I really love him now and his development in the canon comics was one of my favourite right through to the end. I think he's great. I like Faith too, but over the course of all twelve seasons I think Xander got more thoughtful development. Faith works well alongside Angel rather than beside Buffy I think. Her times on BtVS were great, but I don't think would have worked better if they'd been longer. Being under appreciated is part of Xander's story I suppose so he'd roll with such criticism as part of his life if he was in a melancholy mood. But he really is an excellent inclusion on BtVS to me and the core group would have felt very different without him.

[Willow from Buffy]

I really love Xander's post high school development. He has his crisis in S4, when he doesn't know what to do with his life, but then in S5 and 6, he finds his feet. The aborted wedding leads to a new crisis, but then we get a very wise and mature Xander in S7.

Willow is really the one who is left behind in the end. Both Buffy and Xander start taking on adult roles. They have jobs. Xander becomes engaged. Buffy takes care of a minor. Willow never buys an apartment, gets a job or buys a car. Willow manages the Summers household for a short while, but then she spends the rest of S6 as one more dependant for Buffy.

Xander wouldn't work at all on AtS. The Scoobies are first and foremost a group of friends. Angel Investigations is a business, where each member has special skills. What exactly would Xander do for them? He is not as strong as Gunn or as knowledgeable as Wesley or as smart as Fred.

[Sosa lola]

Xander wouldn't work at all on AtS. The Scoobies are first and foremost a group of friends. Angel Investigations is a business, where each member has special skills. What exactly would Xander do for them? He is not as strong as Gunn or as knowledgeable as Wesley or as smart as Fred.

He could fix the broken windows of the hotel

I could see Xander as a guest in a one episode on Angel - perhaps he was sent by his construction company for a business trip. It would have been a nice closure episode for him and Cordelia.

[Willow from Buffy]

He could fix the broken windows of the hotel

I could see Xander as a guest in a one episode on Angel - perhaps he was sent by his construction company for a business trip. It would have been a nice closure episode for him and Cordelia.

I agree, even if Xander and Cordelia did end in a really good place. I really like that scene where they skip class together in "Graduation."

There is a lot of stuff you could have done with Xander. It would be very interesting to have him interact with Angel again.

[Sosa lola]

I agree, even if Xander and Cordelia did end in a really good place. I really like that scene where they skip class together in "Graduation."

There is a lot of stuff you could have done with Xander. It would be very interesting to have him interact with Angel again.

To be honest a Xander/Angel interaction is more interesting to me than Xander/Cordelia. I would have liked to see grown up S5 Xander interact with Angel, perhaps during the time Angel fired his own team, that would have been intense.

Edit: I think the dress scene in the Prom is the Xander/Cordelia closure scene. The skipping class scene was so fleeting and impersonal to me. I would have liked if Xander and Cordelia shared a scene during the Mayor's speech in the graduation ceremony. After all, they were sitting next to each other. Cordelia could told him then that she was leaving Sunnydale after graduation. And that he was the first person she told about her decision.

[ghoststar]

I've really come to appreciate Xander through discussing his role/story in he rewatch. He wasn't a favourite at first but I really love him now and his development in the canon comics was one of my favourite right through to the end. I think he's great. I like Faith too, but over the course of all twelve seasons I think Xander got more thoughtful development. Faith works well alongside Angel rather than beside Buffy I think. Her times on BtVS were great, but I don't think would have worked better if they'd been longer. Being under appreciated is part of Xander's story I suppose so he'd roll with such criticism as part of his life if he was in a melancholy mood. But he really is an excellent inclusion on BtVS to me and the core group would have felt very different without him.

I agree about Faith working better on Angel than on BtVS. It seems to me that, every time she plays off a female lead, it turns into some weird competition, which manages to both bore and baffle me. OTOH, she's got some solid (mostly platonic, but still) chemistry with the guys, and Eliza Dushku had the talent for bigger and better things.

Faith is actually one of the characters that got me wondering who else might've been better served by a series swap. As far as I can tell, there's not a strong relationship between how well I like a character on BtVS and how well I like them on Angel. I find Cordelia tolerable on BtVS, and insufferable on Angel; I adore Spike on BtVS, and can't stand him on Angel; Darla comes across as just another flunky on BtVS, and I love her on Angel. (Yes, I'm twisted, I know.) Xander? I can kind of see him fulfilling the S5 Spike role on Angel, with less obsession and more commonsense observation. While I don't know that Xander as a comic foil for Angel would've worked, I think that, in theory, it sets up a more interesting dynamic than his later Sunnydale plotlines.

[Andrew S.]

I do agree that the Buffy writers seemed to stop knowing what to do with Xander sometime around/after S5 and I do agree about them repeatedly erasing his development, but I don’t think it would have necessarily been *better* for Xander to have moved over to Angel. It could have worked though, as long as Anya went with him. For two reasons: 1) I think the relationship with Anya was an integral part of adult-Xander’s development and 2) I would have LOVED to see Angel start a conversation about the fact that Xander is dating an ex-demon after all of the criticism he gave Angel, even while souled.

I don't see it because Wesley is the ex-watcher book smart character, and that’s not Xander. If Xander was supposed to be on the show, I could see him replacing Gunn. Gunn kinda played the Xander role on the show, someone dear to him got turned and he had to stake them, major trust issues with Angel, lack of purpose and direction in S5.

There are definitely similarities between Xander and Gunn and I wish they had gotten to interact onscreen. Although honestly, I’ve always thought Wesley and Xander had a lot more in common. While their surface personalities were different, their overall roles in the shows were quite similar. Both characters were never taken seriously by anyone around them but then eventually grew more confident, both had masculinity issues caused by abusive fathers, both constantly clashed with Angel (I acknowledge that Gunn did as well, but Wesley’s issues with Angel were emphasized/affected the narrative more), both guys constantly bickered with Cordelia, and entered sexual relationships with morally ambiguous/“evil” women (Anya/Lilah) that started due to isolation from their friends and developed into something more. I’d say the primary differences between them – besides Wesley being more intelligent/book-savvy – is that Wesley completely evolved out of the comic relief role whereas Xander didn’t and Wesley’s series-wide arc is a tragic one whereas Xander’s is more positive.

[WhiteKnightDragon]

The thing is Xander didn't backslide. We see constant growth for Xander in seasons 1-5 and in 7. Season 6 is more about a lack of growth and everybody being stuck in a bad place which leads to crappy decisions. The comparison between the Cordy and Anya situations, I can see how some would consider it backsliding, but it isn't. Xander cheated on Cordy and knew there was no coming back from that. Anya was different. Xander never wanted to end the relationship, just the wedding. Obviously one led to the other here, but it wasn't the intention. It was the result of crappy decisions, in this case Xander's decision to ignore his obvious doubts to make Anya happy. He wasn't asking for a second chance, he was asking Anya to understand it was just marriage he wasn't quite ready for. Given the way things went, they were never gonna get back together, something Xander did accept not long after. Sweet is different to the love spell too, though mostly because it's not clear what actually happened with Sweet. Xander admits summoning Sweet, even gives an explanation suggesting he knew what he was doing. But then Selfless shows Xander was asleep while holding the amulet, accidentally summoning Sweet. It also doesn't actually fit with Xander's character that he would mess with an obviously magical amulet considering his extreme wariness of magic (something that has me doubting his, and Tara's, willingness to do the resurrection). It always seemed more likely to me that Xander admitted to it simply to save Dawn. The way it was shown either Xander summoned Sweet, but didn't know and therefore couldn't admit it, or he was protecting Dawn, no matter if he accidentally summoned Sweet or not. That storyline needed a better resolution.

I don't think Xander would have fit on AtS though. His hostility to Angel would have prevented Xander being a real part of the team, especially as he doesn't trust Angel in any way. They would have butt heads so much they wouldn't be able to do their jobs properly. His history with Cordy would have had a negative effect for a while as well, not to mention his history with Wes. And there would have been jealousy over the Doyle relationship for Cordy too, in a similar way to Cordy/Wes in BtVS season 3. There's just too much negativity there for Xander to fit. He definitely did better on Buffy than he would have on Angel

[flow]

That’s actually what I always thought. Sweet thought Dawn summoned him because she wore the amulet but she had only stolen it. Xander admitted to having summoned Sweet in order to save Dawn from marrying Sweet. When Xander touched the amulet while sleeping the residuals of Willow's will be done spell that had turned him into a demon magnet begun working and Sweet was summoned by that. In the end, no one deliberately summoned Sweet, it was just an accident.

flow

[Silver1]

Would Xander have fitted AtS better. Imo good god no! The character has always had big problems with Vampires, particularly Angel, and Brendon at the time would not have been mentally stable enough to play that role.

[sybil]

Because I was in that “way back machine crowd” of from the very first viewing, when ATS began, I thought, “Oh, GOODIE! TWO hours of Buffy.” So the cross over of any and all characters was a normal “picture.” While I did think they would do more attention on Liam-Angelus-Angel’s story, whether through the fabulous “back story” inserts, or in moving forward through current attachments, making new “attachments” and finding and securing one’s place and path forward, I admit the “real world-real life stories that had made writers “rock stars,” began with Joss Whedon himself. (Formation of a new network; Joss’s contractual obligations of “taking on three shows at once, including a start up, that itself was utterly bungled in showing the “story-episodes” completely out of order; AND! More “acting show runners” than Trump’s “acting cast of crony (crooks).

And, meanwhile, Brendon wasn’t the only person with ‘personal problems,’ and, in a horrible “twist” left him “drowning,” while other cast members on ATS, actually floundered to die or died more suddenly.

So! I tend toward Stony’s assertions because I keep in mind that the “raise the stakes” on the “boogity” people tends to “’steal the show of the “show.”’ I started to really appreciate that Xander was the only NON-boogity person and THAT ‘just shows you’ while everyone else is out there “taking curtain calls,” some people actually keep on keeping on and hold things together. It may be very boring to many, but even the show made a point that a house full of girls and “one toilet” can mean “clogging up the flow” of both the desire to keep “blood and water” separate concerns in natural, necessary, ordinary functioning(s?) of “flow.” Yes, the idea of “not having a period,” as in a juvenile girl is…well, a symbol or something in all that general, even if justified “screech,” but Xander, was so overlooked in ‘putting their reality “back together” in the very simplicity of parallel walls and floors. He was a “connector” to their very humanity, I would say.

While I do see Mike B’s “summary” makes short work of supporting cast and has merits, IMO, I think Xander’s value for “problem solver” for everyone else’s “throwaway” plot fix, e.g. Spike put IN the closet, Xander still having “hormones” for very attractive females, yet who he also *knows * are “impossible” for anything to ever go “anywhere” ultimately, in any sort of independent family formation, is honest.

I don’t think he is merely flushed at the sight of linoleum, as tt were—he has more control, and “control” is also a big plot point. But the stories of “connections” and family/drives/independence are washed in insecurities, as well.

It would seem that ‘normal people’ are “disappearing,”—those with organizational “backing” seem more prevalent and powerful; and that “come and go” examples of “normal,” for ideas in how to make a *sustaining * career path just seem “gone, or the actual people who do them, are definitely not interested in “them” or “me,” is“in itself is “threatening.” That Xander was made fun of for his “world tour” and “went out on his own” to ask AND get a job, means something. (to me—and small town life doesn’t quite offer the same “start over” a “resume” ‘chains’ to a person).


Xander is a unique human, who ‘should have the good sense of self preservation to get out of Dodge before sundown,’ let alone “being in the ‘know’ of how much “no one knows,” let alone what to do about it.

I also think the drama that may seem simplistic of guide and mentor (instead of jailer/killer) of “the new born” aka Vengeance demon made human-Anya is incredibly important in “what fathers do.” While he isn’t perfect, he shows he cares and his loyalty that seats his love is obvious. That she is attractive, even if so utterly changeable—yes, I notice the hair colors—and this girl is a real possibility of “normal” independent family formation for her and for him, does raise the real world problem of pedophilia or even incest. I am thinking of the scandal of Woody Allen raising a child, like a daughter, and then marrying her; it looks like “grooming.” Anya, having thousands of years of “existence,” didn’t really help her “ignorance;” but she is also not a physical baby.

Yes, Xander was ‘hot’ for Buffy. Wasn’t everyone? But, Angel was really, really, “other,” in that he is DEAD, for starters. Because Buffy chose Angel, (despite all Xander had done from the very first day of literally “picking up the stakes,” –his true loyalty)

I really thought Xander and Cordy were an ‘it’ couple of “just that special normal of the learning, creative” and REMAIN HUMAN amidst ever surmounting “powers” and “unknowns.” I reallllly didn’t see “why Cordy” for ATS—other than to show Angel as “ridiculous” in words like “shallow, vain, self-centered, controlling). And that is called “mirroring.” What one is, one off loads as how another is—but it is one’s perspective, and doesn’t “show the truth”—it is merely a “reflection.”

In the Cangel thread, I gut-spilled enough on Cordy, other than to say, again, the weakness in ATS was “everybody is ‘special aka “boogity,” alter realities, psychological planes, delusions, time manipulations, drug and spells inducing realities and making others completely disappear, while trying to maintain anything coherent is ‘over all ‘point of the piece’, even while trying to create homophobic jokes, as was done to Xander endlessly—and need I bring up season eight re “the L.U.G?” The actual * acting * on other insecurities and curiosities for what is ultimately usurious, selfish, and “inappropriate,” which Xander did not do. Except once. And that is the infamous ‘lie” that “damns” him and (actually “undamns/allows the free flow” for Buffy to confess her own terrible secret? And, to add, why he actually “just can’t help himself” to want to ALSO protect Buffy from that terrible “crash and burn” she suffered with Angel/us regarding her (insane) trust of Spike, who was simply and utterly relentless and would.not.leave. Ever. Think of anyone else “who DID NOT leave and it was darn lucky for EVERYONE else that HE DIDN”T?)



Besides, when it comes to “connecting couples,” I should have known that Joss would go for “like with like” over the mythical ‘union of oppposites’—just on the “matching” hair colors. That is also why I adore Faith/Angel because they are “like with like” and Spike and Faith are the “opposite” to the titular characters, even as they are supporting cast characters. Willow is the great and magical bridge character in so many ways, and that sure was an interesting ‘cross over’ when she met Fred. Sure beats that “sad idea” of “the dead Kennedys” to “rock” with, iMO. And, yeah, female power was seriously lacking, so they coked up Cordy—and destroyed conscience and consciousness and core point set forth as plot in season two in everyone else “over there” on ATS. Just sayin’

That simple a thing of “hair color match to change for the opposite against the title character—that actually made me “see” why Cordy became the ‘devolve story of Angel, just as Spike did for Buffy. And, yes, while James had blisters on his scalp from bleach, the “dark hair” showing through for Buffy’s light hair made ‘union of opposites’ the big, fat high drama, fairly “stuffed down our throats” since, to me: (they made Buffy less bleached to show her light-dark “balance” I never believed for all that—and you know why) all the wrong people were doing the union of opposites with the wrong characters FOR it—to “finalize” (a very positive myth * Odyssey *) both an American fairytale and achieving the goals of “journey” stated as the POINT of plot, and by what means, (death/change) in literally the finale of BTVS, and a whole NEW DIRECTION of ATS that left the titular character NOT the story of his own story.

However, this also set up the “vehicle” to “bump them off”—which, Joss shockingly did to “break our hearts’ to teach costs, (cynicism, also) and “show” they had “completed the point of the journey defining the piece aka Adulthood on BTVS and Redemption on ATS.

I did not see the SHOW’s stated “achievement” on EITHER show; I think I got, “more of the same” or even regression (which, totally agree with some of you is to show “a lesson is not truly learned or not understood) ) and made the point suddenly : “moving on,” (ever-becoming is the “eternal time” premise, even within an adult who later, shows physical decline). I never felt anyone ACHIEVED the POINT: balance of ACHIEVING adulthood and the ‘magic’ of EVER becoming as a human being, even while ‘living and dying’ in time and ‘moving fluidly through all the ‘murky’ of unknowns, deeply hidden, memory through speculation that actually entails.

Anyway, I got in a horrible fight with my Dad because he is my hero, not for his war service, but because he did the “back and forth” he actually hated to care for me, to show love for me. And, he did work that “moved the world on rail” so we all get stuff to do stuff, like live.” The “wallflowers” of normal “back and forth” people, who don’t get the medals, but do face the failures and even violence of ‘normal society’ and still keep the whole flowing—geez—are indeed the heroes. Try surviving Covid 19 all by yourself without the “faceless.”
HUGS!
sybil