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  • #31
    In German:



    flow
    ................................ Banner by buffylover

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Stoney View Post
      I think I'd prefer the subtitles and hearing the true voices. I haven't watched a lot of films with subtitles but I have a few and I watched a couple of seasons of Jordskott and really liked being able to hear the rhythm/flow/tone of the real language. But I did worry I missed odd subtleties in the acting. But I'm a really slow reader, so probably suffer more from that than most. I have to say, I'd still choose that and hearing it as it is intended over dubbing personally, I was just trying to objectively consider it pros/cons.
      Me too. I remember loving the German show Kommissar Rex, and I would never want to watch it dubbed.

      (OMG, I've just found out that there's more Kommissar Rex than I knew, they moved to Rome for more seasons! I want it!)
      My Tumblr: Dog is My Copilot

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      • #33
        Originally posted by flow View Post
        It's really interesting that people think dubbing is silly or weird because here in Germany there is not a single tv-series or movie that isn't dubbed. There is a whole industry for dubbing and they are mostly doing a good job of it. I guess it started back in the fifties and sixties when people didn't speak English very well or at all and it just stuck. People would look at you with eyes big as saucers if you'd suggest them they could try to watch the original with subtitles. Dubbing is part of our culture. Just like beer and garden gnomes.

        As I said, they mostly make a good job of dubbing. It's certainley difficult, but it is similar to the translation of novels. You have to transfer the culture references so people can get the idea behind it. For example Tom Riddle's middle in the Harry Potter series is Vorlost and not marvolo here in Germany. It's necessary to make the anagram work.

        But they absolutely failed with dubbing Buffy and that's why I think Buffy never was a huge success in Germany. Literally everything that makes Buffy worth watching got lost in translation. Buffy is considered to be just another a mediocre teenage highschool romance-drama. And by the way the actor who dubs Spike is the same actor who dubs Johnny Depp. Can you imagine Spike speaking with the voice (and accent) of Johnny Depp? Buffy on the other is dubbed by someone who is really busy. She also Dubs Gwyneth Paltrow, Drew Barrymore, Sarah Jessica Parker and many more.

        I have to take a look at my DVD's to tell you what they made of gems like "You are myth-taken", but I can give you a first impression by re-translating some of the Episode titles.

        Season 1 Episode 7 Angel - Blutige Küsse - Bloodied kisses

        Season 1 Episode 12 Prophecy Girl - Das Ende der Welt - End Of The World

        Season 2 Episode 7 Lie To me - Todessehnsucht - Deathwish

        Season 2 Episode 17 Passion - Das Jenseits Lässt Grüßen - Greetings From Beyond

        Season 2 Episode 22 Becoming Part 2 Das Spiel Mit Dem Feuer - Playing With Fire

        Season 3 Episode 8 Lovers Walk - Liebe Und Andere Schwierigkeiten - Love And Other Obstacles

        Season 3 Episode 18 Where The Wild Things Are - Die Unersättlichen - The Insatiables

        Season 5 Episode 7 Fool For Love - Eine Lektion fürs Leben - A Lesson For Life

        Season 6 Episode 9 Smashed - Alte Feinde, neue Freunde? - Old Enemies, New Friends?

        Season 6 Episode 19 Seing Red - Warren's Rache - Warren's Revenge

        Season 7 Episode 4 Help - Hilflos - Helpless

        Season 7 Episode 20 Touched - Die Quelle Der Macht - The Source of Power

        flow
        Some of these titles are terrible.
        You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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        • #34
          betta:
          Me too. I remember loving the German show Kommissar Rex, and I would never want to watch it dubbed.
          Its' a show about a dog

          Original: Wuff!
          Subtitle: Woof!

          flow
          ................................ Banner by buffylover

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          • #35
            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
            Some of these titles are terrible.
            Aren't they just! Old Enemies, New Friends?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by flow View Post
              betta:

              Its' a show about a dog

              Original: Wuff!
              Subtitle: Woof!

              flow
              Rex: Au au au!

              For God's sake dog, you are a bloody* German Shepherd!

              *homage to Spike
              My Tumblr: Dog is My Copilot

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              • #37
                Okay - I've watched both the orgasm scenes and decided only the French and the Italians should be allowed to procreate.

                Warren's Rache
                What the....? This from the country that gave us Rilke, Grass, Brecht and Goethe?

                @Betta

                Rex: Au au au!
                I have to ask: is Rex having an orgasm?
                Last edited by TriBel; 05-06-19, 12:41 AM.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                  I think I'd prefer the subtitles and hearing the true voices. I haven't watched a lot of films with subtitles but I have a few and I watched a couple of seasons of Jordskott and really liked being able to hear the rhythm/flow/tone of the real language. But I did worry I missed odd subtleties in the acting. But I'm a really slow reader, so probably suffer more from that than most. I have to say, I'd still choose that and hearing it as it is intended over dubbing personally, I was just trying to objectively consider it pros/cons.
                  Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                  Aren't they just! Old Enemies, New Friends?
                  Some of those titles are pretty funny I wonder why Passion is Greetings from Beyond?! It's no better or worse than some of the French titles though. Agree about subtitles - I'd prefer them over dubbing, because an actor's voice is so intricately linked with how one receives their character (in betta's link to the "Pangs" scene for instance, they all sound drastically different and not in a good way!) but I'd prefer not to even have subtitles to skim through when watching something. It's not as much of a big deal though.

                  Originally posted by thenewbuzwuzz View Post
                  lilyginnyblackv2, on tumblr, has made a series of posts about the Japanese version
                  This was fascinating, thanks for sharing!

                  Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                  However, Basque doesn't have bow wow. It has au-au (any dog); txau-txau (small dogs); zaunk-zaunk (large dogs); jau-jau (old dogs). Nor does French - French →wouaff-wouaff; ouah-ouah; whou-whou; vaf-vaf; jappe-jappe (small dog).* In fact, I couldn't find it in any language except Hindi and Tamil** so it would have been meaningless for the majority of people (not SpuffyGlitz ). They couldn't have gleaned anything from it.
                  Actually, really not. Mother tongue is determined by region - neither of my parents can speak the national language and neither can speak each other's languages - the only common language at home is English. I'm closer to my mom so my Kashmiri is better - but it's a Dardic language (a subgroup of the Indo-European language family) that's very distinct from other northern subcontinental languages like Hindi or Urdu -- "bow wow" in Kashmiri would come closest to the Kurdish equivalent ("hauv hauv") but not quite - it's actually "ow-aaa" or "ow-aaa_ooo" in Kashmiri. Kashmiri language and culture in general is quite removed from the plains of south Asia, its official script is Persian-Arabic or Sharada and it isn't taught at schools (unless you're still living in the Valley) - so essentially, I need English to communicate because my Hindi is fairly weak and I have a passing knowledge of Tamil via my dad (who has three different mother tongues -- my family is very mixed). My mom's always sad about the fact that Kashmiri (despite being an official language), has been edged out of the mainstream because it's not really a written language anymore, it's mostly just spoken but has a rich poetic/literary history. It actually might come closest to replicating some of the BtVS titles IMO - but I still don't want it to be done.
                  Using the "dog" example above: imagine Beneath You had been called "Bow-wow" (just stay with me on this). I could work with the idea of greeting, genuflection, obeisance, shame etc. all conveyed by "bow" - it even means head inclination, so Spike head tilts are catered for. Similarly, there's the element of surprise, exclamation, disbelief etc. encoded in wow. Then there's "Poor Rocky".
                  I'd honestly hate for BY to be titled "bow-wow" Even with the inclusion of greeting, genuflection, shame, surprise, Rocky & head tilts Also not sure of the reliability of online links because according to this link https://www.indifferentlanguages.com/words/bow-wow, Italian, French, Greek, Hungarian all list "bow-wow" as direct onomatopoeic equivalents so I'm surprised you didn't find more - I don't know if that's trustworthy though.

                  Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
                  It's really not much of a distraction, you need a split second to read subtitles. The only people who state that argument are from countries where subtitles are not widely used, so maybe it's a problem when you're not used to it? People I know irl only complain about bad translations in subtitles, never about subtitles, and everyone finds dubbing an absurd idea, except in cartooms for children. Apparently they tried once in Slovenia to introduce dubbing and it didn't stick because people found it silly.
                  That's mostly my issue with subtitles - the translations are sometimes not great and that can spoil understanding. But admittedly, it's way less of an issue than actual changes to script and dubbed voices.
                  Last edited by SpuffyGlitz; 05-06-19, 08:18 AM.
                  .

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                  • #39
                    Is it mostly European countries that dub movies and TV shows? Because I think in Asia and Africa only cartoons, anime and Disney animated movies that get dubbed for the kids. Adults can read the subtitles.
                    Made by Trickyboxes
                    Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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                    • #40
                      I found this from an earlier thread - it has the German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese versions:

                      https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xps5gf
                      .

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                      • #41
                        That was interesting to watch. It has reinforced my feeling really that it's such a shame to not hear the characters' proper voices. In some scenes it isn't as notable as others, but tones do shift between the different versions and the characters' voices have different timbres and I do think that these changes could impact your perception of the character. But those aspects are also tied in to cultural links and the cues that we use to 'classify' people. I don't know if those that are cast in each version are done so to best match the character notes that the show was going for within the alternate viewing audience. I haven't had a chance to look at the lilyginnyblackv2 posts yet. Did they remark on any sense of difference between the characters in contrast to the original?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                          That was interesting to watch. It has reinforced my feeling really that it's such a shame to not hear the characters' proper voices. In some scenes it isn't as notable as others, but tones do shift between the different versions and the characters' voices have different timbres and I do think that these changes could impact your perception of the character. But those aspects are also tied in to cultural links and the cues that we use to 'classify' people. I don't know if those that are cast in each version are done so to best match the character notes that the show was going for within the alternate viewing audience. I haven't had a chance to look at the lilyginnyblackv2 posts yet. Did they remark on any sense of difference between the characters in contrast to the original?
                          I agree, it massively changes our perception of the characters. And many of the voices were quite a contrast to some of the characters. Some versions were better than others, some less so.

                          I actually liked the German version for Lovers Walk more than the other versions in the video, just vocally (I don't know what they're saying or if they've changed the dialogue.)

                          Re: the Japanese version, it goes into great detail so I probably won't do justice to it, but I think lilyginnyblackv2 acknowledges that for School Hard they worked really hard to linguistically try and capture the original meaning, but there were still some small, necessary changes and certain words were not translatable.

                          To quote:

                          I feel like the Japanese dub version of Buffy went above and beyond when it came to translating Spike’s stuff. A lot of the times the Japanese dub (and subtitles) stays pretty close to the original, with usually only the pop culture stuff getting lost in translation, but here with Spike and Dru there are a lot of really small and very interesting changes from the English to the Japanese.
                          Obviously it's discussed in greater detail:

                          Spoiler:
                          The first sentence of Japanese is essentially Spike saying what he does in the English (“You were there?”). After that he says よせよ (yoseyo), which can translate to “For Heaven’s sake/Pete’s sake, for pity’s sake, oh stop, lay off, and etc.” It is very similar in nature to Spike’s “Oh, please!” line in the original English. However, the subtitles have Spike saying 笑わせるな (warawaseru na). This translates to “Don’t (na) make me laugh (warawaseru)!” The na here is a negative imperative, it gives off the sense of being very masculine, rude, and blunt. Spike using super masculine, rude, and blunt imperatives happens a lot in this scene.

                          In the English, Spike continues on to say “If every vampire who said he was at the crucifixion was actually there, it would have been like Woodstock.” The subtitles simplify this a bit. The subs say 「キリストの死を見たと言うバンパイアが多すぎる。まるでウッドストックだ。」(Kirisu to no shi wo mita to iu banpaia ga oosugiru. Maru de uddosutokku da.)

                          The first sentence translates to “Too many vampires say they saw the death of Christ.” I think it is interesting that they don’t use the Japanese terms that exist for crucifixion, such as 磔 (haritsuke) or 磔刑 (takkei), the latter of which is used in connection with Christ. I think it was likely done because these terms aren’t as well known in Japan. The “death of Christ” is just a far more to-the-point way of getting across the same thing; this is especially true for the kanji (Chinese characters) that get used here. The kanji and kanji combination used here for these terms are very specifically used in connection with crucifixion, so it is likely the term would be understood when spoken, but not in text. Plus, the subs try to keep this as simple and straight to the point as possible to make the reading comprehension happen as quickly and effortlessly as possible.

                          The second sentence translates to “It’s like Woodstock.” This translation changes the meaning of the original English just a bit. In the original English, the image that we get is that Spike is saying that if every vampire who claimed to be at the crucifixion was actually there, then it would have been like Woodstock with its huge crowd. In the Japanese subs the image that we get is more like there are all these vampires claiming that they were at the crucifixion in a similar way that there are all these people who claim that they went to Woodstock. The subs translate the English just slightly differently, but it makes for a pretty interesting and rather vastly different interpretation of what Spike is actually claiming/saying here.

                          The spoken Japanese, however, stays true to the original English. The fun aspect of the spoken Japanese here is when Spike says the word 言ったら (ittara). He heavily rolls the ra, which is not common in Japanese. The Japanese ‘r’ sound is usually a mixture of ‘r’ and ‘l,’ so the hard roll that he does here is uncommon. However, it is common with yakuza/yankee (as in gang) speak/speech patterns. So this indicates right off the bat to the Japanese viewers that Spike’s character is a “tough guy.” Spike speech pattern isn’t full on yakuza, it is more of a mix, kinda like his accent in English. But the very masculine grammar he uses (na, omae, ze, ore, and etc.) do help to build up this image.

                          A small change that doesn’t really affect anything is when the other vampire speaks to Spike. In the English he says, “I oughta rip your throat out.” In Japanese he says, “Do you want me to cut open/slash/slit your throat.” Ultimately the two sentences imply the same the same, the imagery is just a bit different and the threat given in a slightly different way.

                          What Spike says next is a pretty fun and interesting change though. In the English he says “I was actually at Woodstock. That was a weird gig.” The subs are 「ウッドストックは愉快だったせ。」(Uddosutokku wa yukai datta se.) This translates to “Woodstock was a delight (a joy/pleasure/amusement)!” This is the implication that we get from the rest of the English sentence, which has him (rather fondly) talking about staring at his hands for hours after sucking the blood out of a flower child.

                          In the spoken dub, Spike says that he was there and then states 「それは妙だったんや。」(Sore wa myou dattan ya.) or “It was weird.” The ya at the end of this sentence indicates that Spike probably speaks with a bit of a Kansai or Osaka accent (or he just lets an Osaka/Kansai accent slip in occasionally). I had never seen ya as a sentence ending in this type of situation (the colloquial version I am used to either indicates imperative, invitation, or request…none of which work here), so I looked it up and found this: “…「や」(ya) is a dialectal sentence-ender mostly for Kansai. It expresses affirmation and it is the equivalent of 「だ」(da) in Standard Japanese.” I am not a huge expert on Kansai accents in general (the Osaka accent or otherwise), so I can’t say that I would be able to 100% pick up on when Spike may be using words, phrases, or speech patterns that are associated with those dialects, but I do know that the common yakusa/yankee/etc. type of speech patterns are connected to the Osaka accent.

                          Osaka, unlike Tokyo, was a city that was built on the hard work of the merchant class, which was viewed as being very low on the hierarchy ladder in ancient Japan. So Osaka in general can be seen as more of a blue collar city, as opposed to Tokyo, which is more white collar in feeling and image. This same kind of association is affixed to the Tokyo and Osaka accents. Much like the southern accent in America, the Osaka accent in Japan is often negatively associated with unintelligence, lower class, and so forth. Much like with the yakuza speech patterns in general, Spike only seems to have a slight Kansai / Osaka accent. It is mixed in with a more general (Tokyo) accent, which works well with Spike’s accent (in the English version) being largely faked and created over the years.

                          When the Japanese dub and sub gets to the line, “So, who do you kill for fun around here?” The spoken Japanese is similar in nature, he uses the contraction じゃ (jya) in place of では (dewa), this is very masculine and also implies bluntness and some rudeness. In the subtitles he asks 「ここのお勧めスポットは?」(Koko no osusume supotto wa?) This translates to “So, what place do you recommend here?” or “So, where’s the hotspot here.”

                          After this, we have The Anointed One asks Spike who he is. In the Japanese he asks 「何者だ?」(Nani mono da?) This is not a normal way of asking who someone is, but rather a very “anime/manga/drama only” way of asking about that. It was a way of asking who someone was in ancient times, which isn’t used in normal, real life conversations anymore. I feel like that really fits The Anointed One and that “ancient” image that fits around him and The Master.

                          The Japanese for The Anointed One is 救世主 (kyuuseishu), which is the Biblical terminology for The Savior, Messiah, The Anointed One, and etc. In the subtitles they add さん (-san) to the end of the name, which is more polite. But in the spoken Japanese that doesn’t happen and Spike actually uses お前 (omae) when addressing The Anointed One. He uses that for pretty much everyone, so it shows he lack of care or respect for The Anointed One and his gang.

                          The rest of the scene is very similar to the English. I just love the way 「本で読んでよ。」(Hon de yonde yo.) or “I read [about you] in/through books” is delivered. That line just rolls out so smoothly. When Spike mentions that there is a Slayer problem, in the dub he then says 「手がつてないな。」(Te ga tsutenai na.) or “Seems you can’t handle it,” with the na being a kind of “I sympathize” and kind of a “lol, you guys suck.” The next bit in Japanese translates to something like “Shall I tell you what you should do?” The Japanese makes Spike come off a bit more condescending here, which is both interesting and amusing.

                          Finally, the last bit for this first part is the “nancy boy” comment. In the Japanese they just straight up translate it to “homo” and have Spike say that. That is a slur in Japanese, just like it is in English. I still hate the fact that the writers had Spike use homophobic slurs. I’m glad that got phased out in the comics.

                          The subtitles, however, have Spike saying 「スレイヤー退治は任せとけ。」(Sureiyaa taiji ha makasetoke.) This translates to “Leave the Slayer extermination/elimination/eradication to me.” This is fascinating, because it almost makes Buffy sound as if she is some kind of insect, rodent, or general pest. The toke is also a masculine, plain form ~teoku which is a grammar point that indicates something will be prepped for/done in advance. The toke form of this is very plainly spoken, direct, and forceful.
                          .

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                          • #43
                            @SpuffyGlitz. You disappoint me. At the same time, I'm really relieved that the only problem I encounter when conversing with my parents is one calls me "Duck" and the other uses "Shug" (short for Sugar). (actually, my dad's dead - that's probably the biggest hurdle to conversation - Ouija boards notwithstanding). And yeah, I think Bow-wow is a poor replacement for Beneath You (I should also add, I've had about nine dogs in my lifetime and I don't recall any of them making a noise approximate to bow-wow. They've all "woofed". Stupid dogs!) I only used the example because a) I could make it fit and b) Saussure uses it to illustrate the cultural specificity of onomatopoeia. I think the evidence I used came from Psychology Today (?), which I tend to use for quotes because it's fairly basic, and it's a magazine (rather than a journal) as well as a website.

                            a) I personally don't like dubbing. I find the lip sync (or lack of it) more of a distraction than sub-titles.
                            b) That reading distracts from viewing is the reason most students use when objecting to sub-titles. Yeah, I get this but after a while it becomes habit (honest).
                            c) I tend to use subtitles for everything because I'm hearing-impaired (or just old). In fact, I'm not sure whether subtitling is (in some circumstances) obligatory under the Disability Discrimination Act.
                            d) Translation/transliteration isn't necessarily a hurdle for me because, even in English, I begin at the point where something is always "lost in translation".


                            On this note - I think "translation" and alternate languages in BtVS transcends the ideas being discussed. - particularly in S7. I've put this in spoilers 'cos it's long and boring!

                            Spoiler:
                            Lessons (I really like Lessons). It occurred me that structurally and discursively Lessons evoked Eliot's Four Quartets, East Coker (in the end is my beginning; in the beginning is my end...blah). I was happy to dismiss this as a personal "feeling". Then I found David Lavery (one of the academics responsible for "Buffy Studies") had made a similar remark. Okay - reassuring. Then I remembered Beneath You begins with a homage to Thomas Twyker’s Run Lola Run (which is in German). RLR has an epigraph consisting of two quotes. This is the first:

                            “At the end of our exploring we shall not cease from exploration and the end of all of our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.”

                            This is the second:

                            "After the game is before the game." S. Herberger.

                            Ignore the second (though I can work with it in relation to Lessons and BtVS) and sidebar - I'd already written about exploration (colonisation/orientalism) in relation to the opening of Lessons.) The first is from the final stanza of Little Giddings, the last poem of Eliot's Four Quartets. Aargh! So...go to Four bloody Quartets - which has its own epigraph:

                            τοῦ λόγου δὲ ἐόντος ξυνοῦ ζώουσιν οἱ πολλοί
                            ὡς ἰδίαν ἔχοντες φρόνησιν
                            I. p. 77. Fr. 2.
                            Although logos [knowledge or reason] is common,
                            the many live as if they had a wisdom of their own

                            ὁδὸς ἄνω κάτω μία καὶ ὡυτή
                            I. p. 89 Fr. 60.
                            The way upward and the way downward
                            is one and the same

                            H. A. Diels: Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker (Herakleitos)
                            The Fragments of the Presocratics (Heraclitus)

                            What the...!? As far as I'm concerned Logos is central to S7, and as far as I'm aware Heraclitus is the father of "becoming" - also central. And three - three damned languages!?

                            Then I'm reminded of the inscription in The Mission in S7

                            "The inscription is Latin words written with Greek letters: Non tibi est. Ei solae tractare licet."
                            SPIKE (translating) "It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield."

                            I'm also reminded of this (Touched)

                            DAWN
                            Hey...I've been reading this old Turkish spell book. There's an old conjuration that the ancient Turks used to communicate with the dying. [SIDEBAR: S7 BEGINS IN TURKEY WITH A GIRL DYING]

                            WILLOW
                            Oh, yeah. I think I've read a translation of it.

                            DAWN
                            (wide-eyed) There's a translation of it?! (sighs) I'm over it. Um, so the spell is used to communicate with people who can't talk. Um, like if a person was dying, this spell would let them say their good-byes or, you know, gripe about how nobody came to visit them. Would this help us with Mr. No-Tongue?


                            I think the point I'm making is - BtVS is absolutely aware of the complexity of language and the fact that "something is always lost in translation" (except in Touched when they don't speak). The above is an example of why I'd defend S7 to the hilt!
                            Last edited by TriBel; 05-06-19, 01:27 PM.
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
                              Is it mostly European countries that dub movies and TV shows? Because I think in Asia and Africa only cartoons, anime and Disney animated movies that get dubbed for the kids. Adults can read the subtitles.
                              I think it's mostly just the European countries that have a large enough mass in terms of audience (number of people speaking the country's main language), and maybe size of the acting industry, to make it worthwhile? This would be compatible with the list from the link SpuffyGlitz provided -- Germany, France, Italy, Spain. And Portuguese only for Brazil, because Portugal doesn't have the mass. Subtitling is MUCH easier and cheaper than dubbing, so it would really have to be worth the investment to do dubbing instead.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Tribel: I agree the lack of lipsync with dubbing is terribly distracting. And with enough practice, like TTB also said, subtitles are not distracting at all -- you read them at a glance. Of course it helps if you've grown up with them, then you just don't know any better. One of my early childhood memories is my grandmother reading the subtitles of Black Beauty to me because I couldn't read them fast enough yet
                              https://www.youtube.com/c/DoubleDutchess

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                              • #45
                                Well, personally I enjoyed watching the French dubbed BtVS. I have watched OMWF in Italian and was disappointed they didn't dub the songs.
                                Made by Trickyboxes
                                Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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