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  • #16
    bespangled, unfortunately I don't think that killing Xander off would've meant no Caleb. I think the original idea was that Caleb would kill Xander as oppose to just injure him so Caleb would've still had to have been introduced. However, with Xander as The First it's likely that he'd have taken centre stage in those remaining 4 episodes and that Caleb's screen time would've been reduced.

    I honestly don't know how I feel about killing off Xander. I agree that it was would have packed a real emotional punch (I'd have been absolutely devastated) and that it'd probably finally get The First to live up to it's potential but I also can't imagine Xander not being in the finale. I'm very torn on the idea. It's undeniable that it had a lot of story potential for the other characters but I'm also not entirely confident the writing would've lived up to it. There were a lot of missed opportunities around that time.

    TimeTravellingBunny, no idea about Angel. Originally Angel wasn't even meant to appear after the pilot but after the response of the women working in the Whedon's office, he decided he needed to keep Angel/DB around. I know that from late Season 1 Whedon had already planned for Angel to turn evil in Season 2 but little has been said about what they'd have done with him in Season 3 had the spinoff not happened. I think it was known from the very beginning that Buffy would sacrifice Angel at the end of the season so I guess it was a question as to whether not he'd stay permanently dead. Given that Bangel/Angel was immensely popular during this time and that Whedon kept both Spike and Faith around as a result of the audience loving them, I'm inclined to think Angel would've been brought back regardless.

    A few others that I can remember;

    - Spuffy wasn't supposed to last as long as it did in Season 6. It was meant to be a 1-2 episode affair
    - Darla was meant to stick around until the end of "Angel" Season 2. Julie Benz became unavailable which is why we got the Pylea arc.
    - Doyle was not meant to die in Season 1 despite what Whedon said at the time. Tim Minear has since admitted that Doyle was killed off because Glenn Quinn's substance abuse problems were having too much of a negative impact on his work and that Whedon tried to hide this for Glenn's sake.
    - Kate was not meant to leave AtS and was originally supposed to be in Justine's role with Holtz in Season 3. Elisabeth Rohm got a permanent gig with "Law & Order" so she left the show.
    - Cordy was still meant to come back evil in Season 4 but she wasn't meant to be possessed by Jasmine. The original plan was for her to come back to earth corrupted by her power/time as a Higher Being. There were meant to be a lot of action sequences between Angel VS Cordy and the idea was that Angel would have to kill Cordy to save the world as a sort of role reversal to "Becoming"
    - The Circle of the Blackthorn was a last minute idea after the network announced that AtS had been cancelled
    - Spike may not have been in "Angel" Season 6 if JM got his way. JM said that whilst filming the episode "Underneath" he was about to go into Whedon's office and demand to be let out of his contract because he was constantly feuding with producer Kelly Manners and couldn't stand to work with him anymore. JM said that just before he was going to go to Joss it was announced that the series was ending anyway
    - Oz had been planned to join the cast of "Angel" permanently in Season 6 or as a reoccurring character. He was meant to be a mentor to Nina.

    "Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.
    "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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    • #17
      vampmogs, are you sure about that about Angel noz sticking around after the pilot? That sounds really unlikely. What would have been the point of introducing a mysterious love interest just to kill him off immediately ? And the reaction of the women including the casting director was the reason why DB was cast, according to the interviews with her I've read. He had almost no experience and his audition was bad, but she convinced Joss that he had "it", and after the other women had a similar reaction, Joss agreed to cast him. So, I would say they were obviously looking for someone who would be at least a recurring guest star love interest for all of season 1 - and someone who definitely had to be a heartthrob and appeal to the audience. If it was just one or two episodes, I doubt that Joss would have cared that much.
      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
        vampmogs, are you sure about that about Angel noz sticking around after the pilot? That sounds really unlikely. What would have been the point of introducing a mysterious love interest just to kill him off immediately?
        Yep positive. I've seen it mentioned several times. He was also originally not meant to be a vampire and his grand entrance was going to be swooping in on a motorbike. I honestly have no idea how early into the production of the show they changed their minds on this because it never made a great deal of sense to me either. I'd assume it was in-between shooting the pilot presentation for The WB (as Angel doesn't even make an appearance) and shooting "Welcome to the Hellmouth." But it has definitely been said on more than one occasion. I'll see if I can find some quotes.

        I'd assume by "Welcome to the Hellmouth"/"The Harvest" they knew he'd be sticking around past those two episodes but pre-production that was the original plan. That said, I do think it's telling that DB was in just a guest star role for the entirety of Season 1 and wasn't added to the main credits until Season 2. I think they felt their way as they went with him and it wasn't a guarantee he was meant to stick around as a character.
        "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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        • #19
          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
          bespangled, unfortunately I don't think that killing Xander off would've meant no Caleb. I think the original idea was that Caleb would kill Xander as oppose to just injure him so Caleb would've still had to have been introduced. However, with Xander as The First it's likely that he'd have taken centre stage in those remaining 4 episodes and that Caleb's screen time would've been reduced.

          I honestly don't know how I feel about killing off Xander. I agree that it was would have packed a real emotional punch (I'd have been absolutely devastated) and that it'd probably finally get The First to live up to it's potential but I also can't imagine Xander not being in the finale. I'm very torn on the idea. It's undeniable that it had a lot of story potential for the other characters but I'm also not entirely confident the writing would've lived up to it. There were a lot of missed opportunities around that time.

          TimeTravellingBunny, no idea about Angel. Originally Angel wasn't even meant to appear after the pilot but after the response of the women working in the Whedon's office, he decided he needed to keep Angel/DB around. I know that from late Season 1 Whedon had already planned for Angel to turn evil in Season 2 but little has been said about what they'd have done with him in Season 3 had the spinoff not happened. I think it was known from the very beginning that Buffy would sacrifice Angel at the end of the season so I guess it was a question as to whether not he'd stay permanently dead. Given that Bangel/Angel was immensely popular during this time and that Whedon kept both Spike and Faith around as a result of the audience loving them, I'm inclined to think Angel would've been brought back regardless.

          A few others that I can remember;

          - Spuffy wasn't supposed to last as long as it did in Season 6. It was meant to be a 1-2 episode affair
          - Darla was meant to stick around until the end of "Angel" Season 2. Julie Benz became unavailable which is why we got the Pylea arc.
          - Doyle was not meant to die in Season 1 despite what Whedon said at the time. Tim Minear has since admitted that Doyle was killed off because Glenn Quinn's substance abuse problems were having too much of a negative impact on his work and that Whedon tried to hide this for Glenn's sake.
          - Kate was not meant to leave AtS and was originally supposed to be in Justine's role with Holtz in Season 3. Elisabeth Rohm got a permanent gig with "Law & Order" so she left the show.
          - Cordy was still meant to come back evil in Season 4 but she wasn't meant to be possessed by Jasmine. The original plan was for her to come back to earth corrupted by her power/time as a Higher Being. There were meant to be a lot of action sequences between Angel VS Cordy and the idea was that Angel would have to kill Cordy to save the world as a sort of role reversal to "Becoming"
          - The Circle of the Blackthorn was a last minute idea after the network announced that AtS had been cancelled
          - Spike may not have been in "Angel" Season 6 if JM got his way. JM said that whilst filming the episode "Underneath" he was about to go into Whedon's office and demand to be let out of his contract because he was constantly feuding with producer Kelly Manners and couldn't stand to work with him anymore. JM said that just before he was going to go to Joss it was announced that the series was ending anyway
          - Oz had been planned to join the cast of "Angel" permanently in Season 6 or as a reoccurring character. He was meant to be a mentor to Nina.

          "Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.

          The James Marsters leaving is new. I remember a convention way back he did with Charisma and he mocked a producer "don't give a hoot just shoot shoot shoot".
          Charisma said thats Kelly and JM says quickly "don't say his name".
          What I don't know though is what the feud was actually about ?

          I also heard talk of Andrew becoming a permanent cast member in Angel S6. I'm kind if glad he wasn't.

          Dawn was supposed to be a younger character but MT got the part. But she was 14 so they changed her age. It's why in the early episodes she's like a 11 yr old rather than a 14 yr old.

          Also Jenny Calendar was killed off due to the actress wanting out of the show due to her religious beliefs.
          Last edited by BtVS fan; 01-04-19, 06:58 AM.

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          • #20
            It sounded like it was just a clash of personalities. JM said he didn't like Kelly's attitude on set and I'm pretty sure Kelly had a reputation for being a hard taskmaster. Kelly had been with the series for years so everyone else seemed pretty used to it but it was obviously different to what JM had experienced on "Buffy."

            From what I recall, Jenny wasn't killed off because of Robia LaMorte's religious beliefs. The way I heard it she became a born again christian sometime between Season 2-3 and was very unhappy to be playing The First in "Amends" which she thought was the show's equivalent of the devil. After that she refused to make any future appearances.

            Speaking of Jenny's death though, I did hear that originally Whedon intended to have Angelus kill Oz instead. Or that at the very least he was seriously tossing up between them.

            Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
            Dawn was supposed to be a younger character but MT got the part. But she was 14 so they changed her age. It's why in the early episodes she's like a 11 yr old rather than a 14 yr old.
            Yep. She was also originally going to have powers as well. They toyed with the idea of her having telekinetic powers or having the power to speak to the dead.
            Last edited by vampmogs; 01-04-19, 07:04 AM.
            "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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            • #21
              - Spike may not have been in "Angel" Season 6 if JM got his way. JM said that whilst filming the episode "Underneath" he was about to go into Whedon's office and demand to be let out of his contract because he was constantly feuding with producer Kelly Manners and couldn't stand to work with him anymore. JM said that just before he was going to go to Joss it was announced that the series was ending anyway
              - Oz had been planned to join the cast of "Angel" permanently in Season 6 or as a reoccurring character. He was meant to be a mentor to Nina.
              Thats the first time I've heard of this. Is this just JM 'twisting' the truth again?


              I'm not sure about anything that drastically changed whilst shooting or at a really late stage that was a significant turn of events/plans. The downside of coming to the show later and not watching any of the commentaries and rarely reading any writer interviews etc.
              Yep, that'll do It every time.
              Last edited by Silver1; 01-04-19, 08:24 AM.

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              • #22
                Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.[/QUOTE]

                Buffy S4 seemed to have a few. Both Seth Green and Lindsay Crouse left.
                Oz I think they could handle. Seth said he left because all he did was agree with Buffy and he was kind of right.
                Not having the series long Big Bad though was a much worse issue. Once Maggie Walsh was killed off The Initiative arc dropped like a stone. It had issues anyway but without Maggie it made it really obvious.
                Then you have Spike, he was brought back then did nothing for most of the season except as Joss admits borrow a cup of coffee and insult the gang.

                Side not on the Passion of the nerd podcast on Hero he mentions a Greenwalt interview on Glen Quinn. That they were going to kill him off but would have brought him back if he'd got cleaned up. Sadly that never happened.

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                • #23
                  I have always been wondering what they would have done with Maggie Walsh if Lindsay Crouse hadn`t left.

                  flow
                  ................................ Banner by buffylover

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by flow View Post
                    I have always been wondering what they would have done with Maggie Walsh if Lindsay Crouse hadn`t left.

                    flow
                    Apparently they were going to focus on a Buffy/Riley/Maggie "triangle" if you will with Maggie trying to lure Riley to her side. We got a taste of it in "The I In Team" so it would've probably been something like that just on steroids and played out throughout the entire season.

                    Adam was only meant to be her Frankenstein muscle henchman as obviously she couldn't go toe to toe with Buffy physically. It's such a shame. She would've been a great Big Bad.
                    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-04-19, 09:33 AM.
                    "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by flow View Post
                      I have always been wondering what they would have done with Maggie Walsh if Lindsay Crouse hadn`t left.

                      flow
                      Adam in Prime Evil does say this is all exactly as she imagined except she thought she would be alive. I'm wondering if that's the writer talking to the audience on Maggie's role there

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                        bespangled, unfortunately I don't think that killing Xander off would've meant no Caleb. I think the original idea was that Caleb would kill Xander as oppose to just injure him so Caleb would've still had to have been introduced. However, with Xander as The First it's likely that he'd have taken centre stage in those remaining 4 episodes and that Caleb's screen time would've been reduced.

                        I honestly don't know how I feel about killing off Xander. I agree that it was would have packed a real emotional punch (I'd have been absolutely devastated) and that it'd probably finally get The First to live up to it's potential but I also can't imagine Xander not being in the finale. I'm very torn on the idea. It's undeniable that it had a lot of story potential for the other characters but I'm also not entirely confident the writing would've lived up to it. There were a lot of missed opportunities around that time.

                        "Angel" had a LOT of backstage dramas/unexpected issues which messed with the show. Way, way more than "Buffy" did. I think that it contributed largely to, IMO, how disjointed and messy the show often felt.
                        It would have been the hardest death in the universe. But it occurs to me that Xander/First taunting Buffy would be like Xandgelus. Without the threat.

                        All I know of Angel issues is that Glenn Quinn was cast in part because he and DB were personal friends. The production team was apparently sending chauffeurs to his home to wake him and get him sober enough to act. He was also apparently well loved overall - which is why they tried to shelter his reputation.

                        And I know the CC season 4 debacles - along with a few other CC related bumps. Anything I'm missing?

                        I heard Oz was going to be killed but Robia was starting to become uneasy with the show as she got deeper into Christianity and she told Joss she wasn't comfortable coming back.That's why they killed her instead of Oz.
                        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                          Apparently they were going to focus on a Buffy/Riley/Maggie "triangle" if you will with Maggie trying to lure Riley to her side. We got a taste of it in "The I In Team" so it would've probably been something like that just on steroids and played out throughout the entire season.

                          Adam was only meant to be her Frankenstein muscle henchman as obviously she couldn't go toe to toe with Buffy physically. It's such a shame. She would've been a great Big Bad.
                          Floppy disk guy was a 1 episode monster of the week villain stretched out over a whole arc.
                          Not sure how effective the triangle would be given that they were always trying to protect the Riley character and give him an out. The writers wanted us to believe that he was Maggie's number 2 but somehow knew next to nothing about the Organisation and what she was trying to do. I mean common ...

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Skippcomet View Post
                            According to Goddard, the other writers had to convince Joss that killing Xander this late in the season, after such a long period of loyalty to Buffy or something, would come off as pettily punishing Xander or something (Sosa, you have a better memory for Xander-related stuff than I do, could you clarify this?)
                            I listened to that commentary a long time ago. It was what you said, Joss wanted to show off NB's skills at playing the evil guy, but the other writers convinced him that it was a bad idea killing off one of the main four characters.
                            Made by Trickyboxes
                            Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
                              I listened to that commentary a long time ago. It was what you said, Joss wanted to show off NB's skills at playing the evil guy, but the other writers convinced him that it was a bad idea killing off one of the main four characters.
                              Apparently SMG and NB went to Joss to make Buffy and Xander a couple in S7 but he said no. Looks like Xander lost out twice there. I wonder if concern over NB's own issues might have played a part there.
                              Regardless I think that was the right call by Joss on the relationship issue.

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                              • #30
                                I would have actually enjoyed a S7 Buffy/Xander story. Both have grown up and matured and accepted their roles within the group. They were already Dawn's parents in S7.
                                Made by Trickyboxes
                                Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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