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  • #91
    More Wishverse canon.

    The Master rose as he planned in The Harvest. The Master and his subordinates spent his first several weeks gathering and making a vamp army. Conditions were rapidly deteriorating in Sunnydale and the Master's rise in The Harvest resulted in a lot of dead teenagers to fuel the Master's power. But most of the clueless Sunnydale citizens couldn't put their finger on the problem and continued acting like nothing was wrong.

    Then on a busy Saturday night, the Master and his huge army of new vamps announced their new ruling power by taking over the Bronze and brutally raping, torturing and killing every person in the Bronze and then walked out into the street where the Bronze is located and murdered everyone in the shops and cafes. In that night, the Master took over the Bronze as his headquarters and Sunnydale wised up to vampires.

    That's the incident where Angel tried to fight against the army in a desperate attempt to save everyone but the Master knew who he was and insisted that he be chained and given to his new favorite, Willow, as a pet.

    Comment


    • #92
      There's been a lot of talk recently about the whole Angel/Angelus thing. However, there's something that many people tend to forget, and that I realized when I rewatched the first two seasons of BtVS last year: the habit of calling souled!Angel "Angel" and soulless!Angel "Angelus" was something that only started late in season 3, in the episode Enemies. In seasons 1 and 2, most people were using both names regardless of whether it was the souled or soulless version of the vampire played by David Boreanaz. The only one to ever use "Angelus" to indicate soulless Angel in season 2 was Jenny Calendar; but everyone else, including Buffy and Giles but also Darla, The Master, Spike and Dru, and even Angel(us) himself, were constantly using "Angel" for both the souled and the soulless version. (Some particularly interesting examples: when Buffy says "You're not Angel" in Innocence, his reply is "Wrong! I'm Angel at last; Drusilla greets the return of soulless Angel calling him "Angel!", not Angelus, before he says "Yeah, baby, I'm back"; Spike uses Angelus for souled!Angel when he says "I preferred the earlier, Slayer-whipped Angelus".) This debunks the theory that "Angelus" was the exclusive name he was using as soulless and evil mass murderer, and that "Angel" was only the name he developed later for his new personality. If that were the case, then Spike and Dru would never have called him "Angel" in season 2 - they wouldn't have even known about this name, since they had never met souled!Angel before (that they were aware of)!

      So, I've developed my own personal canon theory to try to make sense of it all. I might have written about it before, but not in this thread.

      Vampire! Liam called himself Angel out of a dark irony because that’s what his sister thought he was when he came back as a vampire. But he started using the Latin word because he thought it sounded cooler and more dangerous, and this became the name that he was known by in Watcher’s books and among the populace. But those close to him, like Spike, Dru and Darla, often called him simply “Angel”. (Angel and Angelus are, of course, just the English and the Latin version of the same name.) The Angel/Angelus divide is something that someone only started in 1999 (season 3 of BtVS), and Cordelia and Wesley latched onto it and carried it on later in AtS because it was easier to use those shorthands and they were more comfortable with thinking about their friend that way. Angel, who himself never thought “Angelus” was a different personality, eventually just went along with it when they would say it, but never made an attempt to argue something like that with Darla or Spike.

      Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
      I don't know about "evil", but Vamp Xander *did* strike me as less voracious and vicious than Vamp Willow. He'd rather watch Vamp Willow torture Angel than participate. Vamp Willow is the one who "loves all the parts".
      And he loves that she loves all the parts. So Vamp Xander prefers to watch his girlfriend torture someone to torturing him himself. Does that actually makes him less sadistic? Probably not... only more voyeuristic.
      Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 06-03-13, 10:30 PM.
      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

      Comment


      • #93
        All caught up

        I’m going to try to not respond to speculation.



        * Joss Whedon is the only arbiter of canon regarding the Buffyverse.


        * I’m not going to address “What the point of the episode is ___________.” stuff.




        Vampire in Rug

        * My quote: “Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” was canon. Joss Whedon after he read it gave canon approval for Ring of Fire . Also, Long Night’s Journey used to be canon.”

        This is true. Are you going to give the citation for Peter David first coming up with “William Pratt”?


        * Willow
        Spoiler:
        turned AngelTwilight into a frog and it seems she could have killed AngelTwilight.


        It's a stretch that anyone would live in regular Sunnydale to begin with,
        As we saw with Nancy in “Beneath You” (7.02) most of the Sunnnydale residents don’t know there are actually vampires, monsters, and demons in Sunndyale.

        The Wishverse doesn't really make it that much more unbelievable to what it is already.
        That’s laughable. You may as well say a town with a relatively high murder rate is similar to a Nazi concentration camp.

        Your reasons for why the rich people wouldn't just move out of Wishverse Sunnydale applies to regular Sunnydale too, although to a lesser extent.
        This argument simply concludes the Wishverse isn’t what the town of Sunnydale would have actually been like.

        it's a stretch that the government isn't doing much to combat the vampires in regular Sunnydale.
        Are you forgetting about the Initiative?

        My quote: “Why wouldn’t Buffy be in the town that’s ruled by vampires?”

        Because that was the entire point of the wish: that Buffy wouldn't be there.
        Exactly – The Wishverse isn’t based on what would actually happen had Joyce decided to move to some other town.

        Angel got captured at some point when he was trying to save some people from the Master.
        Angel was scared of the Master to the point that he didn’t want to go in the sewers with Buffy.


        * Anya’s not so much afraid of rabbits as what they represent to her: Olaf cheating on her.



        KingofCretins

        Hadn't [Buffy and Co.] established at some point previously that he was eluding attempts at magical detection?
        No? To know where someone is, Willow would need to know who or what she’s tracking.


        Regarding the Wishverse:

        * If a town was ruled by vampires, those vampires would have been wiped out. If a nuke were the only plausible way to do that, Sunnydale would be nuked. It’s silly to think the rest of the world wouldn’t know the town was ruled by vampires unless some kind of spell was done over Sunnydale something like what happened with Hell-LA (if that’s canon). But we never even saw a witch in the Wishverse.


        * Buffy was the one who killed Luke, and she did it by tricking him. The White Hats killed Luke and Darla? Who was the Master’s Vessel in the Wishverse?

        I could also see [Luke and Darla] both being out setting up franchises for the Master, realizing he had two very eager and able new Dragons* in Xander and Willow.
        Except there’s no mention of this and no there’s no mention of other towns being overrun by vampires.

        I think Xander and Willow both could replace the functions served by Luke and Darla, but with the genders reversed. Luke and Willow being the more actual Dragon, the brutal and sadistic enforcer, while Xander and Darla were more like vampire consigliere, more reserved and calculating lieutenants.
        Except Darla wasn’t a consigliere to the Master, and VampireWillow is obviously going to be smarter than VampireXander so she’d more likely be an adviser to the Master than Xander would.

        ________________________________________________

        Frankly, if you could have gotten the pair -- VampXander and VampWillow – [in the Buffyverse (being out of the Wishverse)] you'd have had a scarier big bad duo than Spike and Dru.
        That is beyond laughable.



        Dipstick

        [Regarding the Wishverse:] Vamp Xander is an effective, disciplined lieutenant with gravitas in the vamp community. He's intelligent and focused on his job/role.
        VampireXander is pretty much “VampireWillow’s boyfriend.” We don’t see him do much and we don’t have a “Doppelgangland”-episode with him. How’s he shown to be intelligent?

        For all we know, that couple works somewhat like if Spike and Harmony had stayed together and Spike actually liked Harmony.

        ________________________________________________

        I do think that human!Willow and human!Xander are made of much stronger stuff than William and human!Dru.
        Well, you have to compare pre-meeting Buffy Summers Willow and Xander with human William Pratt and Drusilla Keeble. VampireWillow didn’t seem to have any magical powers. And if someone did to her what Angel did to Dru, who knows how she’d turn out. William Pratt is more intelligent, intellectual, and educated than Xander Harris. And nothing suggests pre-“Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01) Xander stood up to bullies and whatnot.

        Comment


        • #94
          If a town was ruled by vampires, those vampires would have been wiped out. If a nuke were the only plausible way to do that, Sunnydale would be nuked. It’s silly to think the rest of the world wouldn’t know the town was ruled by vampires unless some kind of spell was done over Sunnydale something like what happened with Hell-LA (if that’s canon). But we never even saw a witch in the Wishverse.
          Maybe Spike cast a spell to trap the Master in Sunnydale or something?

          As we saw with Nancy in “Beneath You” (7.02) most of the Sunnnydale residents don’t know there are actually vampires, monsters, and demons in Sunndyale.
          Which is exactly why it makes no sense that people are actually living in Sunnydale. No way people wouldn't notice all the weird stuff in a week, let alone years.

          Well, you have to compare pre-meeting Buffy Summers Willow and Xander with human William Pratt and Drusilla Keeble.
          No, you don't. I didn't know Buffy had the magical power of vastly improving people in every respect by merely befriending them. It would be very silly to discount Willwo and Xander's personal development and rely on basically ten minutes of footage from the first episode just because you want to "prove" that your favourite characters are better than somebody else's.

          VampireWillow didn’t seem to have any magical powers
          Not every vampire can be a powerful spell caster like say Spike, true.
          Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 03-04-13, 05:03 PM.
          Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by MikeB View Post

            * Joss Whedon is the only arbiter of canon regarding the Buffyverse.
            Unless of course we are talking about the A&F comics, in which case MikeB is the arbiter of canon and gets to declare which scenes and which issues are non-canon.

            Vampire in Rug

            * My quote: “Spike and Dru : “Paint the Town Red” was canon. Joss Whedon after he read it gave canon approval for Ring of Fire . Also, Long Night’s Journey used to be canon.”

            This is true.

            You can keep quoting yourself all you like, that doesn't make it true. I notice that you *still* can't provide a single shred of evidence supporting their canon status beyond your say-so. Funny that.

            The Origin was released in 1999 and I can quite easily find quotes from Joss to support it's canon status. Spike and Dru: Paint the Town Red was released in the same year, and Ring of Fire was released in 2000, making it *even more recent* than The Origin. Yet you can't cite a single source apart from yourself that supports the idea of these books ever being canon.

            This thread is for *personal canon*, so if you enjoyed those stories and want to adopt them into your personal canon, that's great. But let's not get basic facts wrong and say that the books were marketed by Joss as canon.

            "Paint the Town Red" and "Ring of Fire" are, and always were as non-canon as the rest of the pre-season 8 comics (barring a few exceptions). You are the only person I've seen try to argue otherwise.

            For what it's worth, here's what Scott Allie has to say on the subject:

            Spoiler:
            AndrewCrossett: The question of "canon" has reared its head again with all this business with squaring things up with the IDW comics. The usual (but not universally accepted) definition is that anything Joss writes or supervises is canon, and everything else is stuff done under license from Fox -- official, but not canon. "Canon" is the stuff that Joss himself considers part of *his* story, and that will be recognized as part of the history of these characters when he writes about them.

            The usual list of comics canon is: From Dark Horse -- Buffy season 8 and the ancillary webcomics; Tales of the Slayers; Tales of the Vampires; Fray; Buffy: The Origin. And from IDW, the After the Fall comics he plotted with Brian. (Issues 1-17 and 23).

            Are there any other Dark Horse comics we should be accepting as canon?

            Scott Allie: Nope, those are them. Obviously all our Serenity stuff is canon, but in terms of Buffy, I think your list covers it. I don't count as canon those early comics we did with Jane and Doug, before Joss was working directly with us, like Ring of Fire and Haunted. With the old Buffy comics, of which I did a LOT, the goal was to do stories that fit with canon, that didn't conflict with anything, and which would never call your attention to their non-canon status. That goes for everything in the Omnibuses with the obvious exception of Origin. But maintaining that dance between canon and non-canon got so difficult toward the end that I launched back to Year One, and told stories that I was pretty sure Joss would never contradict, only because I knew he'd never flashback very much. For those Year One comics, I talked to him about what I was gonna do, and he told me it was okay, nixed an idea or two. But the concept of canon in licensed comics has really evolved in recent years. Season 8 has a lot to do with that, and a lot to do with comics like Jericho, and IDW's Star Trek Countdown—nothing like this was being done ten years ago. Well, maybe something was, but not to this extent.



            Are you going to give the citation for Peter David first coming up with “William Pratt”?
            After less than a minute on google, here's what I got.

            From the Spike page on wikipedia

            "William's surname is given as "Pratt" in the non-canon comic Old Times and is written on the label of his jar of blood in the comic Spike: Asylum #002. The name William Pratt may allude to horror actor Boris Karloff, whose birth name was William Henry Pratt, and can also be understood as the British slang term "prat", describing a person of arrogant stupidity."

            Then there is this Whedonesque page.

            Unfortunetly, the Newsarama page that it links to seems to have been taken down (it was quite a while ago, 2005 so not really surprising that the page is not still up). On the Whedonesque page Spike: Old Times is described as the "comic book which gave us Spike's name in full." The comments on the page indicate that people are learning Spike's last name for the first time.

            I also found THIS PAGE which seems to be part of the interview Peter David did for the Newsarama site from the page that is no longer there. Peter apparently said:

            "Really ? Nothing new ? I just...I’m not sure what to say to that. In a book that gives you Spike’s last name, Halfrek’s origin, explains just what she was doing there that night in London in 1880, and draws a definitive connection between Halfrek and Cecily when the show just left it to conjecture, I’m kind of stunned that you would say there was nothing new there.

            PAD"


            I'm guessing that was in response to a fan complaint that Old Times offered "nothing new".

            So there you go. A few minutes in google and that's what I came up with. I know you've claimed in the past that Joss himself revealed Spike's surname to be Pratt in an interview during season 5, but I'm quite sure you are misremembering. Joss Whedon quotes are generally more documented than Peter David quotes when it comes to the Buffyverse, so if you still don't believe me then it should be a piece of cake for you to find that interview that proves me wrong. It should also be a piece of cake for you to find some shred of evidence somewhere that "Ring of Fire" or "Paint the Town Red are/were canon.


            Spoiler:
            * Willow turned AngelTwilight into a frog and it seems she could have killed AngelTwilight.
            Spoiler:
            I've already explained that I find that idea stupid. Making Willow OverPowered takes away all of the danger and tension of the big bad. Hence why my personal fanon is that Twilight had magical defences and was able to turn himself back from a frog after a few moments. I happen to find it stupid that Willow can OHKO the most powerful big bad we've seen. If you don't agree, that's fine but this is the thread for *personal canon* and I don't think it's that much of a stretch that Twilight-Angel could have magical defences It's certainly no more outrageous than some of your ideas that I've seen. And again, even if you disagree, this is the thread for personal canon.


            As we saw with Nancy in “Beneath You” (7.02) most of the Sunnnydale residents don’t know there are actually vampires, monsters, and demons in Sunndyale.
            And you don't think it's a stretch that the Sunnydale citizens don't know about vampires, monsters and demons after all these years? This is a trope, it's called Weirdness Censor. Many of the citizens do know that something weird is going on in Sunnydale, they just refuse to acknowledge it. When Giles says "People rationalize what they can and forget what they can't," that's not even a remotely believable explanation for people not knowing about the monster attacks that happen every single day. It's a hand-wave explanation for why the scoobies are "in the know" about the supernatural, but most regular people are not.

            That’s laughable. You may as well say a town with a relatively high murder rate is similar to a Nazi concentration camp.
            Regular Sunnydale had what, seven or so *apocalypses* -that we know about. Not to mention all the large supernatural events that affected everyone in the town at some point. What's "laughable" is that anyone would choose to live in Sunnydale at the best of times. The difference between regular Sunnydale and Wishverse Sunnydale is not as great as a the difference between a normal city with a high murder rate and a Nazi concentration camp. That's a pretty huge exaggeration on your part.

            You really do have to suspend your disbelief in to accept that in regular Sunnydale, most people don't know about the supernatural. You really have to suspend your disbelief to buy the idea that vampires weren't public knowledge until season 8. They've been around almost as long as human civilization and you're telling me that there were no attention seeking vampires prior to Harmony? You accept that no vampires *ever* were discovered and studied and made public knowledge? The Buffyverse at the best of times expects you to suspend your disbelief, so I don't think that the Wishverse was really that much more of a stretch.

            Maybe the Hellmouth in regular Sunnydale was affecting people and making them subconsciously not want to accept the reality of vampires. Maybe in the Wishverse the Hellmouth was subconsciously making people not want to leave even though it was dangerous to live there? Maybe the government put a giant wall around the city to contain the vampire "disease"? I don't know. The show needs you to accept so much that wouldn't realistically happen already, I don't see why the Wishverse is that big of a deal for you to accept.

            Are you forgetting about the Initiative?
            The Initiative was a relatively recent development in season 4. Realistically, the government and the military should have stepped in to do something about vampires long before the Initiative.

            Exactly – The Wishverse isn’t based on what would actually happen had Joyce decided to move to some other town.
            Dude, the entire *premise* of the Wish was that Buffy wouldn't be there. Your argument against that is that you find it unrealistic that Buffy's not active in the town that is ruled by vampires. Buffy not being there is the entire premise, if you can't accept that then I don't know what to say. That's like someone saying that they can't enjoy BtVS because vampires aren't real. Or that Superman isn't what would "actually happen" because a man can't really fly. Whether or not Buffy being in Sunnydale is what would "actually" happen had Joyce decided to move to another town is completely besides the point. Cordelia's wish required Buffy to not be there. Also, you don't know what the situation in Cleveland was like or what circumstances led up to Buffy moving to Cleveland.

            Angel was scared of the Master to the point that he didn’t want to go in the sewers with Buffy.
            And yet in the actual episode we learn that Angel got captured when he tried to save a bunch of people. We don't know what kind of personal development Angel had in the Wishverse by that point, or what the situation was when he got captured. Yes, BtVS Angel in season 1 was scared of the Master in the very first episode. Who knows what experiences and growth season 3 Wishverse Angel had experienced.


            * Anya’s not so much afraid of rabbits as what they represent to her: Olaf cheating on her.
            I'm glad you could clear that up for me. So what irrational phobia did Cordelia get when Xander cheated on her? What phobia did Oz/Willow/Spike/Buffy get when they were cheated on?


            * If a town was ruled by vampires, those vampires would have been wiped out. If a nuke were the only plausible way to do that, Sunnydale would be nuked. It’s silly to think the rest of the world wouldn’t know the town was ruled by vampires unless some kind of spell was done over Sunnydale something like what happened with Hell-LA (if that’s canon).
            I don't think the government is quite so casual when it comes to nuking a town.

            We only saw what, a couple of days in the Wishverse? We know pretty much nothing about its history or what the rest of the world knows. Maybe there is a spell around Sunnydale like Hell-A. Who knows.

            But we never even saw a witch in the Wishverse.
            We never saw Spike doing that spell to contain Acathla, yet you insist that it happened off-screen. So anything is possible I guess. Just because we didn't see a witch in that *one episode* set in the Wishverse doesn't mean that there wasn't one or that the rest of the world not knowing/caring about Sunnydale couldn't have been because of some kind of magical influence. Really, who knows.


            * Buffy was the one who killed Luke, and she did it by tricking him. The White Hats killed Luke and Darla? Who was the Master’s Vessel in the Wishverse?
            I would assume that Luke was still the Master's vessel. The Harvest happened at the start of season 1 and the Wish took place in season 3. That is *plenty* of time for the Whitehats to dust Darla and Luke at some point. I'm not saying that the Whitehats definitely did dust Luke and Darla, just that it's possible. An ordinary person can have "one good day" where they dust a strong vampire, just because Luke gave Buffy a hard time, that doesn't mean that a regular person couldn't kill Luke in a different set of circumstances.

            Or maybe Luke and Darla were backstabbed by vampire Xander and Willow so that they could become the Master's new favourites.

            Or maybe the Master sent them to another town on some mission.

            Or maybe it was just their day off and they were relaxing.

            There are plenty of possible explanations for why Luke and Darla weren't seen in the Wishverse.

            Except there’s no mention of this and no there’s no mention of other towns being overrun by vampires.
            Just because there's no mention of it, who'se to say it didn't happen? Since when has something not being mentioned ever stopped you from inventing your own personal canon? We've got no idea what the rest of the world was like in the Wishverse. Or maybe Luke and Darla left to set up a new franchise only the day before.


            That is beyond laughable.
            This is the personal canon thread. Is it really necessary to tear down other people's ideas like this? Especially when so many of your own ideas are "beyond laughable".

            VampireWillow didn’t seem to have any magical powers.
            Doing the spell to restore Angel's soul was what first got Willow into magic. In the Wishverse she wouldn't have done that so she presumably may not have tried doing magic before. But I would assume that she would still have the same potential if she ever showed an interest.

            And if someone did to her what Angel did to Dru, who knows how she’d turn out.
            Maybe Willow would turn out exactly the same as Drusilla. Maybe Willow would be a broken and weak vampire. Maybe Willow would be *even more badass* than Dru. Who knows.

            William Pratt is more intelligent, intellectual, and educated than Xander Harris. And nothing suggests pre-“Welcome to the Hellmouth” (1.01) Xander stood up to bullies and whatnot.
            Is this personal canon, or just another excuse to unfavourably compare Xander to Spike? Since when does education have anything to do with the badassery level of a vampire?
            Last edited by Vampire in Rug; 03-04-13, 05:11 PM.

            Comment


            • #96
              It seems the last dose of warnings didn't stop the insults.. you are all walking on very thin ice right now. Debate without comments like "that is laughable" or any of the other sly insults being flung around or I will hand out temporary bans to everyone involved.

              Comment


              • #97
                For me - and apparently for the most BTVS fans - only think that is canon is seven seasons of TV show and nothing else. Comics were huge disappointment, I don't like direction it went so I stopped reading them and I choose to ignore them. Only comics I could treat as my personal canon are some of the prequels Buffy: Orygins , Slayer, Interrupted , Viva Las Buffy!. This and nothing more.

                Comment


                • #98
                  I don't know whether this is "my" canon because I think it's so obvious to any thinking mind. However, there IS written material about Glory. Glory WAS researchable. The Scoobies (especially Tara) were wrong and stupid in this conversation in Shadow:

                  TARA: Maybe she's not in the books.
                  WILLOW: What do you mean?
                  TARA: I mean, what if she's not a demon or sorceress or spirit or whatever these books cover? (Giles looks over at her as he rings up the sale) What if she's something else altogether?
                  GILES: Thank you, come again. (Hands item to customer and comes out from behind counter toward the table) Something new, you mean?
                  TARA: (shakes head) Something old. So old it pre-dates the written word.
                  WILLOW: (thinks of something) Giles, the Dagon sphere. You said that was created to repel...
                  GILES: That which cannot be named. (removes glasses thoughtfully)
                  WILLOW: So I'm thinking maybe she...
                  GILES: Predates language itself?

                  Willow nods significantly. Xander looks puzzled.
                  XANDER: Well hey, if it means I don't have to read any more, woo! And might I add a big hoo!
                  GILES: If Tara's right, then we're blind. There's ... there's no way we can determine ... her moves, her habits, where she'll turn up next-
                  It's just all so stupid. Of course, she can be named. She's named Glorificus. What kind of a leap of logic is is to say that someone who predated the written word won't appear in books?!

                  How many things predated the written word but exist now (like Glory seemed to in Shadow) and are written about? Hmm, the sun, water, grass, etc.

                  How many things predated the written word on Earth but never existed afterward (not exactly Glory's case- but somewhat analogous to how Glory didn't show up on Earth until recently- which the Scoobies did NOT know until Shadow)? Earth's original primordial soup, wooly mammoths, Neanderthals, etc.

                  IMO, the legend of Glory was written about and codified. There's no way to assemble a large international organization like the Knights of Byzantium focused on them defeating Glory without internal memos and some body of written work on their whole raison de'tre. The Watcher's Council were able to effectively research Glory back in England- which leads me to believe that they had written material on her.

                  Shadow treats Tara like she's on some break-through with Giles and Willow hopping on her band-wagon and Tara saying her theory with, like, Karl Rovian levels of confidence. IMO, the rest of the season proved that she was a gibbering moron then. My goodness, if something predates the written word, it won't be written about...That's one for the ages!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
                    It's just all so stupid. Of course, she can be named. She's named Glorificus. What kind of a leap of logic is is to say that someone who predated the written word won't appear in books?!

                    How many things predated the written word but exist now (like Glory seemed to in Shadow) and are written about? Hmm, the sun, water, grass, etc.

                    How many things predated the written word on Earth but never existed afterward (not exactly Glory's case- but somewhat analogous to how Glory didn't show up on Earth until recently- which the Scoobies did NOT know until Shadow)? Earth's original primordial soup, wooly mammoths, Neanderthals, etc.

                    IMO, the legend of Glory was written about and codified. There's no way to assemble a large international organization like the Knights of Byzantium focused on them defeating Glory without internal memos and some body of written work on their whole raison de'tre. The Watcher's Council were able to effectively research Glory back in England- which leads me to believe that they had written material on her.

                    Shadow treats Tara like she's on some break-through with Giles and Willow hopping on her band-wagon and Tara saying her theory with, like, Karl Rovian levels of confidence. IMO, the rest of the season proved that she was a gibbering moron then. My goodness, if something predates the written word, it won't be written about...That's one for the ages!
                    I don't think it is. They wanted to show as that Glory was truly ancient so there was very little information about her. For example in the past people didn't knew anything about those Mammoths you were talking about, because cave people didn't know how to write so they didn't pass down their knowledge about Mammoths and future generation didn't know anything about them.

                    The thing is that -for all we know - Glorificus didn't existed on our plane of existence before Ben was born. So she was around only 20-30 years. Before that people probably know very little about her because she either didn't interfere in affairs of our world or she did it so long ago that almost all information about her was lost - contact took placed before writen word existed... It could be compared to Reapers in "Mass Effect" series - every 50 000 years, they attack and harvest all organic life in the galaxy but because periods between their attacks are so long and because Reapers destroy all advanced civilizations, all knowledge about them is lost and almost no one knows that they even existed. Same can be said about Glory.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 1701EarlGrey View Post
                      I don't think it is. They wanted to show as that Glory was truly ancient so there was very little information about her. For example in the past people didn't knew anything about those Mammoths you were talking about, because cave people didn't know how to write so they didn't pass down their knowledge about Mammoths and future generation didn't know anything about them.
                      Actually, if you'll scroll below there is Native American folk stories that people think were about the mammoth.

                      From what we ended up knowing, the Knights of Byzantium was a huge international army that mobilized because of Glory and the Monks cast an incredibly complicated spell which was a huge project as a defensive maneuver against Glory. The Watchers Council was able to research and give the whole skinny on Glory without ever meeting the goddess of home perms herself. Apparently, a species of creatures serve Glory and she draws worshipers from demons like the Doc who you wouldn't expect.

                      IMO, it's impossible that these three ancient organizations do what they did as well as any number of worshipers and servants who were part of the Religion on Glory without leaving a pretty big paper trail about Glory. Glory was definitely written about.

                      The thing is that -for all we know - Glorificus didn't existed on our plane of existence before Ben was born. So she was around only 20-30 years. Before that people probably know very little about her because she either didn't interfere in affairs of our world or she did it so long ago that almost all information about her was lost - contact took placed before writen word existed...
                      For other personal canon given the seeming age and legacy of the Monks and the Knights and the fact that the religion around her seemed older than Scientology, I find it impossible to believe that no one heard of Glory until just twenty years ago. Willow, Buffy and the Angel's gang may act like they're the only people to have traveled to other dimensions and back to earth but I don't believe that's true either. Someone fed General Gregor the story about the triumverate of hellgods and how Glory was the worst and blah blah blah. How else did he get the information- a personal candid interview with Glory?

                      There have to have been other people that travel to other dimensions or know demons that traveled to other dimensions who have written about those experiences Marco Polo-style. IMO, that's how General Grego knew about the Legend of the Clique of Hell-Goddess and How Glory was Like Regina George and YOU CAN'T SIT WITH US.



                      So, I think it's pretty much definite that Glory's legends and modes of worship were codified- for the Knights, the Monks, the Council and likely her worshipers like Doc. And that's knowing what we know- that Glory was in another dimension until the last twenty years.

                      Looking at Tara's comments from the POV of what the Scoobies knew in Shadow, I'm still puzzled by the logic in assuming that a very showy, flashy woman is so powerful and strong that she unnerves Buffy who the Scoobies have no reason to believe hasn't been on earth the whole time is too....old to have been written about. Like Tara is saying that because Glory has been here since before the Stone Age, she can't have been written about. The stupidity of that (and Willow and Giles acting like it's a good point) is just overwhelming.
                      Last edited by Dipstick; 09-04-13, 02:35 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
                        Actually, if you'll scroll below there is Native American folk stories that people think were about the mammoth.

                        From what we ended up knowing, the Knights of Byzantium was a huge international army that mobilized because of Glory and the Monks cast an incredibly complicated spell which was a huge project as a defensive maneuver against Glory. The Watchers Council was able to research and give the whole skinny on Glory without ever meeting the goddess of home perms herself. Apparently, a species of creatures serve Glory and she draws worshipers from demons like the Doc who you wouldn't expect.

                        IMO, it's impossible that these three ancient organizations do what they did as well as any number of worshipers and servants who were part of the Religion on Glory without leaving a pretty big paper trail about Glory. Glory was definitely written about.



                        For other personal canon given the seeming age and legacy of the Monks and the Knights and the fact that the religion around her seemed older than Scientology, I find it impossible to believe that no one heard of Glory until just twenty years ago. Willow, Buffy and the Angel's gang may act like they're the only people to have traveled to other dimensions and back to earth but I don't believe that's true either. Someone fed General Gregor the story about the triumverate of hellgods and how Glory was the worst and blah blah blah. How else did he get the information- a personal candid interview with Glory?

                        There have to have been other people that travel to other dimensions or know demons that traveled to other dimensions who have written about those experiences Marco Polo-style. IMO, that's how General Grego knew about the Legend of the Clique of Hell-Goddess and How Glory was Like Regina George and YOU CAN'T SIT WITH US.



                        So, I think it's pretty much definite that Glory's legends and modes of worship were codified- for the Knights, the Monks, the Council and likely her worshipers like Doc. And that's knowing what we know- that Glory was in another dimension until the last twenty years.

                        Looking at Tara's comments from the POV of what the Scoobies knew in Shadow, I'm still puzzled by the logic in assuming that a very showy, flashy woman is so powerful and strong that she unnerves Buffy who the Scoobies have no reason to believe hasn't been on earth the whole time is too....old to have been written about. Like Tara is saying that because Glory has been here since before the Stone Age, she can't have been written about. The stupidity of that (and Willow and Giles acting like it's a good point) is just overwhelming.
                        Glory probably didn't wear pink on a Wednesday.

                        Good point, never considered this. Tara's theory is more likely to be true if Glory had lived and died in an era pre-dating the written word. But even if she had, she's such a dramatic show-off I'd imagine there would be oral legends passed down from generation to generation until somebody got hip with the written word and decided to scribble about Glory on some cave wall or parchment.

                        But Glory never did die before the written word, so of course she'd be written about especially as she grows more powerful. So I'd imagine from the 90s, somebody would start to take notice of her, if the monks or some other power hadn't been keeping track of Ben since his birth. Glory exists and kicks plenty of arse up til 2001, we pretty much had the written word down by then, and then some.

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                        • All caught up


                          Jack Shaftoe

                          Maybe Spike cast a spell to trap the Master in Sunnydale or something?
                          For the Wishverse, something like Wolfram and Hart could have possibly done something like that. Anyway, the Wishverse is simply something Anya created and it very likely has about no basis in what the ‘reality’ would be like.

                          Which is exactly why it makes no sense that people are actually living in Sunnydale. No way people wouldn't notice all the weird stuff in a week, let alone years.
                          Maybe the Hellmouth, or the
                          Spoiler:
                          Seed
                          , or the PTB, or whatever makes people forget stuff or whatever. The US Government could be covering stuff up. Obviously, something like the Mayor Snake would have otherwise been known about not only in Sunnydale, but also across the world.

                          I didn't know Buffy had the magical power of vastly improving people in every respect by merely befriending them.
                          Um, that’s a major point of BtVS. The only reason Xander was able to do things like date Cordy and date Anya is because he was with Buffy. The only reason Xander became so successful is because Anya pushed him so much. The only reason Willow gained the confidence to date Oz and Tara is because of Buffy. The only reason Willow became a witch is because of Buffy. The only reason Angel ‘became someone, someone to be counted’ is because of Buffy. The only reason Spike eventually became a force for good is – aside from his helping to save the world in “Becoming Part II” (2.22) – because of Buffy.

                          It would be very silly to discount Willwo and Xander's personal development and rely on basically ten minutes of footage from the first episode just because you want to "prove" that your favourite characters are better than somebody else's.
                          Huh? I’m not sure what this refers to, but I think I was addressing KingOfCretins saying something like Vampire Xander and Willow were more formidable than Spike and Drusilla.

                          Not every vampire can be a powerful spell caster like say Spike, true.
                          That is actually true.

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                          • Um, that’s a major point of BtVS. The only reason Xander was able to do things like date Cordy and date Anya is because he was with Buffy.
                            No, it's not the "only reason" at all. By refusing to give Xander credit you are also making Cordelia and Anya look kind of pathetic, making it sound as if they would date any doofus who hangs around with Buffy. Buffy doesn't have any "magical powers" of the sort, the whole point is those people have those qualities, they just need the right circumstances and a bit of support from her to show them. Buffy having some influence in the matter is not the same as her being "the only reason", you know.
                            Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                            • By the by, I'm pretty sure all I said was that VampXander/VampWillow were a) parallel to Spike and Dru, and b) a sort of gender reversed version of Darla and Luke. And that I think VampXander would probably have been more dangerous unleashed in the real world than VampWillow was.
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                              • Jack Shaftoe

                                * My quote: Um, that’s a major point of BtVS. The only reason Xander was able to do things like date Cordy and date Anya is because he was with Buffy.

                                Okay, chiefly would have been better word choice; but it is about certain had Xander not associated with Buffy, he wouldn’t have been able to date either of those two.



                                KingofCretins

                                By the by, I'm pretty sure all I said was that VampXander/VampWillow were a) parallel to Spike and Dru,
                                http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...5&postcount=88 You said, “Frankly, if you could have gotten the pair -- VampXander and VampWillow -- you'd have had a scarier big bad duo than Spike and Dru.”

                                First off, we already saw the pair in the Wishverse. Spike and Drusilla’s ‘Big Bad’ness is because of their ability to kill Slayers, Spike’s ability to do things like get the Judge together, find the Gem of Amarra, etc., Drusilla’s magical abilities, and Dru’s ability to manipulate people.

                                VampireWillow’s power simply came from her strength and sadism. VampireXander’s power sems to simply come from being with VampireWillow.

                                Had both VampireXander and VampireWillow shown up in “Doppelgangland” (3.16), Buffy would have still beaten Willow and someone like Angel would have beaten VampireWillow.

                                and b) a sort of gender reversed version of Darla and Luke.
                                This can’t be reconciled with your thinking VampireXander is more dangerous than VampireWillow. Luke was clearly the more powerful and formidable one. Darla’s power mostly only came from whatever influence she had with the Master, Angel, Drusilla, and Spike. In the Wishverse world, probably VampireXander’s influence only stretch so far as to how he could possibly influence VampireWillow and maybe the Master.

                                And that I think VampXander would probably have been more dangerous unleashed in the real world than VampWillow was.
                                VampireWillow was clearly the more – probably much more – powerful of the two of them, the far more dangerous – VampireXander was pretty much simply portrayed as her boy toy – of the two of them, etc.

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