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  • "You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back"

    Im always wondering about which specific moment in Spike's life that she is talking about here.

    Is she talking about when he initially fell in love with her and tried to be a good man for her

    Or is she talking about the moment he got his soul for her?
    Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
    the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

  • #2
    I've always taken it as a given that she was talking about the moment that allowed her to spare him in "Sleeper" -- when he stopped himself from attacking her. There's a natural tendency to try to make most conversations about much bigger things, but they were, after all, having a conversation mostly about why he was chained up in the basement instead of dust, and... that scene is why, so they are probably talking about that scene more than anything else.
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    • #3
      I saw it as a clear reference to getting his soul back. She follows it up with "you risked everything to be a better man" which is obviously a reference to his undergoing the demon trials to win back his soul. "To be the kind of man who would nev-"
      Last edited by vampmogs; 05-08-12, 02:15 PM.
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      • #4
        Thing is. I actually think it may be Intervention. She was going to kill him if he had told Glory about Dawn and it all changed from that moment on, thats the first time she realised that he was really trying to be a good person and was fighting his evil nature. Its the unselfish acts which seem to resonate with her.

        They were actually talking about a very long time ago in that scene when Spike says "ever asked yourself why you cant do it, after all these years, after what i've done to you, to the people around you?"

        To me he is talking about quite far back here and from that point on in general.
        Last edited by BuffySpike; 05-08-12, 02:44 PM.
        Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
        the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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        • #5
          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
          I saw it as a clear reference to getting his soul back. She follows it up with "you risked everything to be a better man" which is obviously a reference to his undergoing the demon trials to win back his soul. "To be the kind of man who would nev-"
          Eh... I don't know. It's not like that is a peculiar or arcane phrase, or concept, that is so distinctive an image that one use definitely refers to another use.

          It's not for nothing, in the actual exchange in question, where Buffy says "she saw him change", it would be a random subject change for it to not have been about him fighting back in "Sleeper", because that's what they had been talking about up until the very instant she spoke the words --

          Buffy: ...Was that you who killed those people in the cellar? Was that you who waited for those girls?

          SPIKE
          There's no one else.

          BUFFY
          That's not true. Listen to me. You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.

          SPIKE
          (lunges violently at her, but chains hold him back) Window dressing.

          BUFFY
          Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. (walks toward him) You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.
          That's not to conflate that in their earlier scene, before he flipped out the first time, when they were talking pretty specifically about him going to get his soul, but some broken ropes, chair, drywall, and Andrew later, they are having a different conversation. I mean, for them to have been talking about him getting his soul at that point, it requires that there have literally been an unspoken subject change during the "(walks toward him)" in that transcript.
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          • #6
            but in the cellar he didnt risk everything to be a better man, he wanted to die.

            she's basically saying he's not the monster he used to be, it wasn't soulful spike doing the killing he had a trigger.

            So maybe it was the initial getting a soul which is why she couldn't kill him

            But then she couldn't kill him for a very long time before that. Thats why I get confused.
            Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
            the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BuffySpike View Post
              but in the cellar he didnt risk everything to be a better man, he wanted to die.

              she's basically saying he's not the monster he used to be, it wasn't soulful spike doing the killing he had a trigger.
              I defer to what is most literal and tangible, and the only time she saw him do anything of the kind of "fighting back against the monster" inside him or anything else was when she was staring dead in his face in "Sleeper". The rest is just stuff she's been told about. I'm assuming she chose her verb for a reason.

              So maybe it was the initial getting a soul which is why she couldn't kill him
              I think she didn't kill him in "Sleeper" for exactly the reason that played out before our eyes -- she knew he spared her and it made her hesitate, and then, she realized that he was being manipulated.

              But then she couldn't kill him for a very long time before that. Thats why I get confused.
              I've really never been clear on all these times Buffy supposedly couldn't bring herself to kill Spike. I can think of plenty of times she didn't bother, i.e. "wanna go kill Spike for fun?" type stuff, but we're never actually shown her being conflicted on "should I kill Spike right now, or not?" other than in Spike's dream sequence which... obviously doesn't count. Although I guess I could except that as an off-screen fanwank for the occasions were Spike's plot armor was strongest, such as after "Out of My Mind" or "Crush". But episodes like "Intervention", she wasn't kidding, she fully expected Giles and Xander were going to kill him, no objection, and was surprised they hadn't. I guess the bigger question would be what you think would have happened at the end of the episode if she hadn't gotten the right answer.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post



                I've really never been clear on all these times Buffy supposedly couldn't bring herself to kill Spike. I can think of plenty of times she didn't bother, i.e. "wanna go kill Spike for fun?" type stuff, but we're never actually shown her being conflicted on "should I kill Spike right now, or not?" other than in Spike's dream sequence which... obviously doesn't count. Although I guess I could except that as an off-screen fanwank for the occasions were Spike's plot armor was strongest, such as after "Out of My Mind" or "Crush". But episodes like "Intervention", she wasn't kidding, she fully expected Giles and Xander were going to kill him, no objection, and was surprised they hadn't. I guess the bigger question would be what you think would have happened at the end of the episode if she hadn't gotten the right answer.
                I have no idea what she would have done if she hadn't gotten the right answer. She didn't have a stake on her in that scene. So i'm guessing maybe she didn't have the intent of killing him here.

                Also when you talk about that Sleeper moment I honestly get the impression that she didn't really want to kill him. Even before she found out he was being manipulated and he literally opened his shirt she didn't show any desire to kill him.
                Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
                the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                  I saw it as a clear reference to getting his soul back. She follows it up with "you risked everything to be a better man" which is obviously a reference to his undergoing the demon trials to win back his soul. "To be the kind of man who would nev-"
                  Yeah pretty much this. Dare I say I'm pretty amazed that anyone could see that as anything else really. I certainly didn't even think of Sleeper, let alone believe she was basing her comment on what happened in that.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                    Yeah pretty much this. Dare I say I'm pretty amazed that anyone could see that as anything else really. I certainly didn't even think of Sleeper, let alone believe she was basing her comment on what happened in that.
                    But they are talking about before he got his soul in that scene too..which is why it confuses me slightly.
                    Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
                    the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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                    • #11
                      Sorry, It never confused me. I always saw it the same way as Vamps.

                      Is she talking about when he initially fell in love with her and tried to be a good man for her

                      Or is she talking about the moment he got his soul for her?
                      No reason It couldn't be both of course.
                      Last edited by sueworld; 05-08-12, 06:17 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Buffy is not stupid; as much as she hated Spike at times (or wanted to continue hating him) and despite never forgetting what he really was, I think she noticed a change in him after Intervention. Whether or not she believed his love for her was real or whether or not it made any difference to her, she saw his strive for acceptance, his willingness to do good for Buffy's sake. Spike certainly didn't become a hero overnight, and most of his changes were all related to his feelings for Buffy.... but it was something. The vampire who let himself be tortured by Glory for Buffy and Dawn, who fought along them in The Gift, who stood around to help the scoobies and take care of Dawn after Buffy died, the vampire she had a relationship with was not the same vampire she met in season 2... or at least he tried not to be, even if in the end his attempts turned out to be vain ...

                        ... and when Spike was confronted with his true nature once again in SR (he had been fooling even himself in thinking he had changed enough to be what Buffy needed and deserved) he took action and went to fix himself, getting his soul back.

                        That's what Buffy meant when she said that he was alive because she saw him change, she saw his penance... and that he faced the monster inside of him and fought back. It wasn't a single moment, but a process.

                        That's my take on it, anyway.
                        Last edited by Francy; 05-08-12, 06:44 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Yeh I just watched it again and its certainly about the soul getting.


                          Originally posted by Francy View Post
                          Buffy is not stupid; as much as she hated Spike at times (or wanted to continue hating him) and despite never forgetting what he really was, I think she noticed a change in him after Intervention. Whether or not she believed his love for her was real or whether or not it made any difference to her, she saw his strive for acceptance, his willingness to do good for Buffy's sake. Spike certainly didn't become a hero overnight, and most of his changes were all related to his feelings for Buffy.... but it was something. The vampire who let himself be tortured by Glory for Buffy and Dawn, who fought along them in The Gift, who stood around to help the scoobies and take care of Dawn after Buffy died, the vampire she had a relationship with was not the same vampire she met in season 2... or at least he tried not to be, even if in the end his attempts turned out to be vain ...

                          ... and when Spike was confronted with his true nature once again in SR (he had been fooling even himself in thinking he had changed enough to be what Buffy needed and deserved) he took action and went to fix himself, getting his soul back.

                          That's what Buffy meant when she said that he was alive because she saw him change, she saw her penance... and that he faced the monster inside of him and fought back. It wasn't a single moment, but a process.

                          That's my take on it, anyway.
                          I certainly agree with you about Intervention. Something changed there and it was a groundbreaking, milestone moment when it came to Buffy's view of Spike. I often feel as if the titles of the episodes have double meanings, especially this one. There is an Intervention by her friends but there is also an intervention in other senses.

                          Her Spirit guide stepping in and telling her what she needs to do in life. By the very end of the episode she takes this first step.


                          PRIMITIVE
                          You are full of love. You love with all
                          of your soul. It's brighter than the fire,
                          blinding. That's why you pull away
                          from it.
                          BUFFY
                          I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?
                          PRIMITIVE
                          Only if you reject it. Love is pain
                          and the Slayer forges strength from pain.
                          BUFFY
                          Yes.
                          Buffy nods…

                          PRIMITIVE
                          Love. Give. Forgive. Risk the pain.
                          It is your nature. Love will bring
                          you to your gift.

                          Also its interesting how the original script goes there too^^ she actually understands the advice given to her in that sence.


                          Oh and at the end of the shooting script we have this:

                          She thinks about that. Then she leans in and kisses him on the mouth, gently and sweetly. After a moment, he pulls back, startled. There is a long beat as Spike realizes the several ramifications of what has happened. Finally he asks…
                          Last edited by BuffySpike; 05-08-12, 06:46 PM.
                          Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
                          the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                            Yeah pretty much this. Dare I say I'm pretty amazed that anyone could see that as anything else really. I certainly didn't even think of Sleeper, let alone believe she was basing her comment on what happened in that.
                            So it never occurred to you that, following dialogue that was explicitly about "Sleeper", is followed out of context by sentences that may also refer to the events of "Sleeper"?

                            Because, again...

                            ...Was that you who killed those people in the cellar? Was that you who waited for those girls?

                            SPIKE
                            There's no one else.

                            BUFFY
                            That's not true. Listen to me. You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.

                            SPIKE
                            (lunges violently at her, but chains hold him back) Window dressing.

                            BUFFY
                            Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not.
                            That, all that? Is explicitly and specifically about "Sleeper", unless there are some other people in some other cellar? So at the very least, what you're saying is "obvious" is that Buffy changed subjects in mid-line and Spike followed her seamlessly. It sucks to be the dry and boring literalist sometimes, but I find it more likely that they are discussing the actual events of the previous episode in the least metaphorical terms than that they are describing wide and varied events in the most metaphorical terms.
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                            • #15
                              But the reason Buffy knows it isn't an act is because he risked everything to gain a soul to be a better man. The trials for his soul are the only time he a) 'risked everything' to b) 'be a better man' and it is why she knows it isn't fake now. You can't take it out of the context of the conversations they have been having.

                              Transcripts for both...
                              Spoiler:

                              BUFFY'S ROOM AT BUFFY'S HOUSE - DAY
                              Buffy goes back into her room where Spike's tied up. She shuts the door behind her.
                              BUFFY
                              Better? (Spike nods) Good. (Buffy sits on edge of bed)
                              SPIKE
                              I don't remember anything.
                              BUFFY
                              Well, you were having pretty bad withdrawal.
                              SPIKE
                              No, not that. I don't remember... what I did. (sighs)
                              BUFFY
                              Nothing?
                              SPIKE
                              It's all flashes here and there. It's like I'm watching someone else...do it, kill people. I've been losing time for a while now, waking up in strange places.
                              BUFFY
                              When did your chip stop working?
                              SPIKE
                              I wasn't aware that it had, you know. Not 'til now.
                              BUFFY
                              And the losing time? How long has that been going on?
                              SPIKE
                              Oh, things have been wonky since I got back, ever since—
                              BUFFY
                              You got your soul.
                              SPIKE
                              (chuckles) Figured that's what it was like, it'd been so long since I had one.
                              BUFFY
                              How did you do it? How'd you get your soul back?
                              SPIKE
                              Saw a man about a girl. (sighs) I went to seek a legend out. Traveled to the other side of the world, made a deal with a demon.
                              BUFFY
                              Just like that?
                              SPIKE
                              No, not just like that. There was a price. There were trials, torture, pain and suffering... of sorts.
                              BUFFY
                              Of sorts?
                              SPIKE
                              Well, it's all relative, isn't it?
                              BUFFY
                              Meaning?
                              SPIKE
                              Meaning I have come to redefine the words pain and suffering since I fell in love with you.
                              BUFFY
                              (sighs) How can you say that?
                              SPIKE
                              Apparently, I just slaughtered half of Sunnydale, pet. I'm not really worried about being polite anymore.
                              BUFFY
                              (nods) So, that's what this is about. (stands, crosses arms) You feeling sorry for yourself, Spike?
                              SPIKE
                              I'm feeling honest with myself. You used me.
                              BUFFY
                              Yes.
                              SPIKE
                              You told me that, of course. I never understood it though. Not until now. You hated yourself, and you took it out on me.
                              BUFFY
                              You figured that out just now?
                              SPIKE
                              Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.
                              BUFFY
                              Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?
                              SPIKE
                              Not the same. As bad as I was, as evil and as wretched as I was, I never truly hated myself back then. Not like I do now.


                              BASEMENT AT BUFFY'S HOUSE - NIGHT
                              Spike is lying on the floor in shackles, both hands and feet chained to the wall. His eyes are closed. Buffy walks downstairs with a bowl of water and goes over to him. She dips a towel in the water and washes the blood off of his face.
                              SPIKE
                              (wakes) Did I hurt anybody?
                              BUFFY
                              You took a good bite out of Andrew.
                              SPIKE
                              Who?
                              BUFFY
                              Tucker's brother.
                              SPIKE
                              Oh.
                              BUFFY
                              He'll be OK.
                              SPIKE
                              I don't remember.
                              BUFFY
                              It's OK. (stands, walks to sink)
                              SPIKE
                              Buffy, I don't know why.
                              BUFFY
                              (sighs) We think we do. Something's playing you. Some ghost or demon has figured out how to control you. Got the gang researching it right now. (Spike pulls himself up into sitting position using the chains) Xander has this theory that you're being triggered.
                              SPIKE
                              Kill me.
                              BUFFY
                              (turns to face him) What?
                              SPIKE
                              Buffy, you have to kill me.
                              BUFFY
                              You don't understand. When I left the room earlier, I heard you talking to someone—
                              SPIKE
                              Do you have any idea what I'm capable of?
                              BUFFY
                              I was in the cellar with you. I saw what you did.
                              SPIKE
                              I'm not talking about the cellar. The people in the cellar got off easy. I'm talking about me. Buffy, you have never met the real me.
                              BUFFY
                              (crosses arms) Believe me, I'm well aware of what you're capable of.
                              SPIKE
                              No, you got off easy too. (stands) Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.
                              BUFFY
                              It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this.
                              SPIKE
                              I already did it. It's already done. (paces, then steps purposefully toward Buffy) You wanna know what I've done to girls Dawn's age? (beat) This is me Buffy. You've got to kill me before I get out.
                              BUFFY
                              We can keep you locked up. Keep you here and we'll figure out—
                              SPIKE
                              Have you ever really asked yourself why you can't do it? Off me? After everything I've done to you, to people around you. It's not love. We both know that.
                              BUFFY
                              You fought by my side. You've saved lives. You've helped—
                              SPIKE
                              Don't do that. (rolls eyes) Don't rationalize this into some noble act. We both know the truth of it. (looks down and away) You like men who hurt you.
                              BUFFY
                              No.
                              SPIKE
                              (looks at Buffy) You need the pain we cause you. You need the hate. You need it to do your job, to be the slayer.
                              BUFFY
                              No. I don't hate like that. Not you, or myself. Not anymore. You think you have insight now because your soul's drenched in blood? You don't know me. You don't even know you. Was that you who killed those people in the cellar? Was that you who waited for those girls?
                              SPIKE
                              There's no one else.
                              BUFFY
                              That's not true. Listen to me. You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.
                              SPIKE
                              (lunges violently at her, but chains hold him back) Window dressing.
                              BUFFY
                              Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. (walks toward him) You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.
                              SPIKE
                              Buffy...
                              BUFFY
                              (in his face) And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike.

                              Their previous conversation in her room was about how he sees things differently since he gained his soul and about how he hates himself now. This is a follow on conversation essentially. And just previously in that conversation he is talking about his pre soul monstrous behaviour and then Buffy asks him if he is feeling differently because his soul is now drenched in blood. It is all about the change in him with the soul, both conversations, and killing after gaining it (risking the monster again) but she is saying that fight has already been won, hence, her comment too is about the soul.
                              Last edited by Stoney; 05-08-12, 08:08 PM.

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