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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
    We've been discussing this in the Mark Watches Buffy thread. We're going to continue the discussion here.

    My opinion is here:

    1) Xander didn't plan to lie to Buffy. He was going to tell her the truth, but changed his mind when he noticed Buffy being hopeful.
    Please refresh my memory. What episode are we talking about here?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
      Buffy's love for Dawn is based to a great extent on the fake memories. And fine, call Dawn a real sister, doesn't make Buffy's attitude any less selfish and despicable to me, especially considering Dawn was going to die in the apocalypse too.
      You know what would have been despicable to me? If Buffy had been ready to murder Dawn, an innocent girl, on account of "well it's her or billions of others", instead of trying everything to find the third solution. I don't trust or respect people who are ready to murder innocents for the greater good. I can see why some people would praise them as "the ones that make the tough decisions", but you know what? Fu@k that. Making any decision with those choices is tough, but people who make that particular choice are two steps away from the mass murdering dictators and terrorists who are ready to kill hundreds and thousands and maybe even millions of people as collateral damage in order to achieve what they think will save the world, make it better etc. Once you decide "I can murder one person to save billions" you can go on to decide "I can murder hundred people to save billions" or "I can murder thousands to save billions" or "I can murder millions because it will give billions a better chance at life".

      The only thing that would've made Buffy despicable was if we had a proof that in the same circumstances she wouldn't hesitate to murder an innocent girl who wasn't her sister. I'd like to think that she wouldn't and that the monks underestimated her. I can see her maybe not being quite as passionate in the defense of not-sister and quite as passionate in stopping her from sacrificing herself in the end, but I do think she would've insisted on finding another way rather than a death of an innocent, and that she wouldn't have murdered the girl or let her be murdered.
      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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      • #18
        You are kidding me here, right? If I don't tell you the truth about something, doesn't it mean that I lie to you? If I don't tell you the truth it doesn't mean that I hide something and it doesn't mean that I don't lie. When somebody doesn't say the truth that means he lies, that means that he says a lie or lies.
        All right, let's start over because there seems to be some misunderstanding. I didn't mean to imply that hiding information is perfectly all right, I meant that there is a difference between hiding the truth and saying a lie. Your argument seems to be based on that same distinction too, so I am very confused why we are arguing about this particular point.

        Which was a reply to points made in the "Mark Watches Buffy" thread as you wrote yourself. And those points were made by me.
        Not really, it was a reference to the general feelings among the fans, rather than anything specific in that thread. And even if it was, you could have just ignored my remark, rather than reply and then become indignant when I dared reply to your reply.

        Yes i truly believe that not so many people would have hated Xander if he hadn't said anything at all.
        Seems to you are the only one who has expressed that view so far, if it's so common why would that be the case? You can't possibly convince that the die hard Bangel shippers for instance would have given a damn if Xander told a lie or just omitted to tell the truth.

        Yeah, also in Beneath you Spike's finally scene is different. Joss changed it. But both of those two episodes weren't written by Whedon, unlike Becoming II. So I don't believe that he made such fundamental changes at the end since both shooting script and transcript are almost the same.
        Why not? If anything it seems more likely for Joss to change things in the last minute when he is a director rather than when someone else is. And in any event, the shooting script only point to what was intended to be shown, so even if Joss actually intended for the scene to come off as Xander having decided already that he was going to lie, I couldn't care less if what I see on my screen tells me the opposite.

        You know what would have been despicable to me? If Buffy had been ready to murder Dawn, an innocent girl, on account of "well it's her or billions of others", instead of trying everything to find the third solution.
        Stop with the strawman, please. I never said Buffy shouldn't have tried a third solution. Just that her attitude indicated to me that if there was no such solution she was going to doom the entire world for a few more minutes of life for Dawn.

        Making any decision with those choices is tough, but people who make that particular choice are two steps away from the mass murdering dictators and terrorists who are ready to kill hundreds and thousands and maybe even millions of people as collateral damage in order to achieve what they think will save the world, make it better etc. Once you decide "I can murder one person to save billions" you can go on to decide "I can murder hundred people to save billions" or "I can murder thousands to save billions" or "I can murder millions because it will give billions a better chance at life".
        It's easy to have such attitude in regards to fiction where there is almost always that magical third option. In real life sometimes there is only a choice between the lesser of two evils and not everyone who makes that choice is a step away from becoming mass murderer. I loathe the "If you kill him you will be just like him" trope because it's a perfect example of logical fallacy and slippery slope argument gone mad. Buffy sent Angel to hell and amazingly enough this wasn't the first step towards her becoming a serial killer. Who would have thought...
        Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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        • #19
          Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
          You know what would have been despicable to me? If Buffy had been ready to murder Dawn, an innocent girl, on account of "well it's her or billions of others", instead of trying everything to find the third solution. I don't trust or respect people who are ready to murder innocents for the greater good. I can see why some people would praise them as "the ones that make the tough decisions", but you know what? Fu@k that. Making any decision with those choices is tough, but people who make that particular choice are two steps away from the mass murdering dictators and terrorists who are ready to kill hundreds and thousands and maybe even millions of people as collateral damage in order to achieve what they think will save the world, make it better etc. Once you decide "I can murder one person to save billions" you can go on to decide "I can murder hundred people to save billions" or "I can murder thousands to save billions" or "I can murder millions because it will give billions a better chance at life".

          The only thing that would've made Buffy despicable was if we had a proof that in the same circumstances she wouldn't hesitate to murder an innocent girl who wasn't her sister. I'd like to think that she wouldn't and that the monks underestimated her. I can see her maybe not being quite as passionate in the defense of not-sister and quite as passionate in stopping her from sacrificing herself in the end, but I do think she would've insisted on finding another way rather than a death of an innocent, and that she wouldn't have murdered the girl or let her be murdered.
          What on earth are you talking about? Why would Buffy have to kill Dawn? Anya would have happily obliged to do it for her. The problem is that Buffy was going to stop anyone from doing so, damning the world in the process. There were two possible scenario's:
          1. Dawn is knocked unconscious and killed, dying a painless death. The world and all its inhabitants are saved.
          2. Dawn dies a slow and agonizing death while the world goes to hell. The world and all its inhabitants, including Dawn, are killed. (This one was Buffy's 'plan'.)

          And Dawn is not even real. Buffy's love for Dawn is no more real than her love for Jonathan, R.J. Brooks and Xander in 'Superstar', 'Him' and 'B, B & B' respectively. Heck, it's less real, since Jonathan, R.J. Brooks and Xander are all real people, whereas Dawn is merely a ball of energy that was disguised as a girl a few months ago. Cynically speaking, Buffy might as well have threatened to destroy the world over a chocolate bar or something. And at least Buffy actually likes chocolate and wasn't just forced into liking it because of a spell.
          Last edited by Artea; 01-02-12, 11:53 PM.


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          • #20
            Citing the shooting script to overcome ambiguity is one thing. Citing the shooting script because the scene as filmed contradicts your view is another. And here, the scene as filmed does not have Xander waffling over what to do, it shows him reacting to what he's seeing right in front of him, and what he's seeing is Buffy completely divest herself of a fighting mindset.

            Personally, I don't think Xander saying anything or not would have made more or fewer people hate him, because I don't honestly think it's anything but a purely emotional process for the people that hate him that much in the first place.

            It was easily one of the most decisive and adult decisions any of the Scoobies ever made in the run of the series up to this point. If they ever do decide to revisit it I hope it's only for Xander to say he did the right thing and would do it again.
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            • #21
              I already posted my thoughts in the Mark Watches thread but I'll break them down here too;

              I believe Xander's primary motivation was to save the world. He didn't believe that Buffy would fight with all her gusto if she knew Willow was working on cursing Angel again. So in the heat of the moment (I agree it wasn’t planned) he lied because he thought he had too. He wasn’t motivated by his hatred of Angel, or out of jealousy, and he does indeed look guilty about it as Buffy walks away.

              But Xander’s personal feelings are in the mix. He’s not one who can block them out completely and I do believe, as evident by how he handles similar situations later on, that it was his extreme dislike of Angel that made this lie possible. When faced with a very similar situation in Selfless he’s incapable of seeing the big picture because he cares for her. Likewise, there’s absolutely no indication whatsoever that Xander ever contemplated killing Willow and seemed quite prepared to have her kill him before he’d ever attempt to do so. So whilst his dislike of Angel may not have been what motivated him it most certainly did make the choice easier for him. They spend a great deal of S2 establishing how much Xander loathed the guy (even before he lost his soul) and not only had him promise Angelus that he’d be there when he died, but they wrote him as not wanting to even try and re-curse him only one episode earlier. To say his personal feelings weren’t in the mix would be far too generous and far too rose-coloured.

              I've never held the lie against Xander. I do think it had some really unfortunate consequences for the characters, in particular Buffy/Willow's relationship and how Buffy felt about her friends in general, but most of that is unforeseeable. It's not something I actually expect somebody to consider in the heat of the moment when his lie wasn't premeditated. Personally, if I were to be angry at Xander about anything it would be his terribly insensitive and moronic comment that “most girls don’t jump the greyhound over boy troubles.” Trivialising the severely traumatic situation with Angelus as “boy troubles” is far more reprehensible to me than his lie in S2 ever was.
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              • #22
                I think it's one of the main reasons Buffy doesn't return to her friends after sacrificing Angel
                That, thank you for reminding it to me. With all those posts I've forgotten what I wanted to say when writing about Giles being safe in the next room and Buffy saving him at the end.

                If Xander hadn't lied about it Buffy wouldn't have had to kill Angel. Or better she would have known that there was a possibility that she would have to kill him. On the contrary, she fights Angelus, and when she's ready to kill him, surprise! Angel comes back and the pain is unbearable. So in Buffy's eyes Willow tells her to kick his ass while at the same time she performs the curse and gives him back his soul. And Buffy must send Angel to hell instead of soulless Angelus. Add the fact that her mother told her to not come back, and she feels isolated from everyone. And she runs away, feeling alone and betrayed by everyone.


                Seems to you are the only one who has expressed that view so far, if it's so common why would that be the case? You can't possibly convince that the die hard Bangel shippers for instance would have given a damn if Xander told a lie or just omitted to tell the truth.
                Seems to me that you've only saw me expressing that opinion because I have seen others as well. And as for the hardcore Bangels, those probably believe that
                Spoiler:
                Buffy is elephant pregnant to Angel's child
                so I really don't take them under consideration when I talk general about the fandom. I only take under consideration the sane Bangels.

                Why not? If anything it seems more likely for Joss to change things in the last minute when he is a director rather than when someone else is. And in any event, the shooting script only point to what was intended to be shown, so even if Joss actually intended for the scene to come off as Xander having decided already that he was going to lie, I couldn't care less if what I see on my screen tells me the opposite.
                Which still you haven't told me what is that you saw that proves the opposite.
                Xander and Buffy are walking.
                Xander sees the sword and says that's new for her.
                Buffy says it's a gift for Angel.
                She still walks.
                Camera only on Xander.
                Xander stops walking.
                Turns on Buffy.
                Tells her that Willow told him to tell her something.
                He hesitates.
                Camera on Buffy.
                Buffy still waiting to hear what is Willow's message.
                No word from Xander.
                Buffy finally asks, "what did Willow say?"
                Camera on Xander.
                He has his mouth wide open.
                He says that Willow told him to tell her to kick his ass.
                Buffy continues walking.
                Xander still seems confused and full of hesitation and guilt.
                Follows her.
                End of scene.

                You're right, there is a change in attitude and in voice. But not in Buffy. Buffy is determined all the way. The change in attitude and in voice and in way of acting is in Xander. Look at the way he talks to her when he first finds her and look at the way the scene ends.

                And Dawn is not even real. Buffy's love for Dawn is no more real than her love for Jonathan, R.J. Brooks and Xander in 'Superstar', 'Him' and 'B, B & B' respectively.
                Buffy's love for Dawn was real. The monks implanted the memories, the love for her sister grew inside her. The monks didn't implant love for Dawn.

                whereas Dawn is merely a ball of energy that was disguised as a girl a few months ago.
                Not disguised, became a human. Huge difference. Became her sister. Was made out of Buffy's blood.

                It was easily one of the most decisive and adult decisions any of the Scoobies ever made in the run of the series up to this point.
                That's your opinion. Don't generalize it. Because Buffy was ready to face and kill Angel. That wasn't an adult decision, that was not believing in Buffy that he had to lie to her to prove his point.

                If they ever do decide to revisit it I hope it's only for Xander to say he did the right thing and would do it again.
                Like @Vampmogs said, they kind of revisited it already. Only the second time he was ready to die in order to stop Willow. And he was ready to die in order to stop Buffy from killing Anya. And when he actually had the chance to talk about it the 4th time, he said nothing. Talking about double standards here, this character has plenty when it comes to something he loves and cherishes. That's just Xander's nature.
                Last edited by dina; 02-02-12, 01:27 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  Like @Vampmogs said, they kind of revisited it already. Only the second time he was ready to die in order to stop Willow. And he was ready to die in order to stop Buffy from killing Anya. And when he actually had the chance to talk about it the 4th time, he said nothing. Talking about double standards here, this character has plenty when it comes to something he loves and cherishes. That's just Xander's nature.
                  Can you say: big fat logical fallacy? You are bashing Xander for thinking of the big picture in 'Becoming' and you are also bashing him for not thinking of the big picture in a different situation. This whole argument is nonsensical. No, scratch that: this whole argument is downright idiotic. It's like complaining about Faith killing people while simultaneously complaining about her decision to turn herself into jail. If you disliked Xander for the lie, you should be praising his character development and his conduct re: Willow and Anya in the later seasons. You aren't, which means you're contradicting your own argument. Which means your argument is complete and utter nonsense.

                  Buffy's love for Dawn was real. The monks implanted the memories, the love for her sister grew inside her. The monks didn't implant love for Dawn.
                  So? Buffy's worship of Jonathan in 'Superstar' was also based on fake memories. For example, she believed he starred in 'The Matrix', which obviously wasn't the case.

                  Not disguised, became a human. Huge difference. Became her sister. Was made out of Buffy's blood.
                  The fact still remains - she was an object. An object that everyone was forced to love because they received fake memories. In 'Gingerbread' a demon takes the guise of two children to manipulate people into doing his bidding - does that mean the Scoobies should have left that demon alone?
                  Last edited by Artea; 02-02-12, 01:45 AM.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dina View Post
                    That, thank you for reminding it to me. With all those posts I've forgotten what I wanted to say when writing about Giles being safe in the next room and Buffy saving him at the end.
                    The idea that "Giles was safe in the next room" would be absurd enough to ignore if I didn't have to ask... what it matters?

                    I mean, it should go without saying, and absolutely WOULD go without saying in a real world armed rescue situation that the hostages aren't "safe in the next room" while the fighting, shooting, and stabbing are going on. You get them out of the picture as fast as safely possible, because otherwise, they are just there to be used as human shields or there to be slaughtered gratuitously for a distraction or psychological ploy. It's a complete joke to think that Buffy would or should have even considered not taking Xander along to get Giles out once she had him with her, because that was the smartest and most tactical thing to do, period. "Safe in the next room", heh.

                    But... why does this even come up? What is the purpose? To establish Xander served no other purpose in being there? Because that doesn't work either -- he had as just as much reason to be there as Buffy herself did, even if he doesn't have her skills and resources, because he lives in the world too, he was in just as much danger, and if Buffy had been shot in the back by that cop when she escaped than sure as hell Xander and/or Oz and/or Cordy and/or Willow would have marched on that mansion to try to save their world.

                    If Xander hadn't lied about it Buffy wouldn't have had to kill Angel. Or better she would have known that there was a possibility that she would have to kill him. On the contrary, she fights Angelus, and when she's ready to kill him, surprise! Angel comes back and the pain is unbearable. So in Buffy's eyes Willow tells her to kick his ass while at the same time she performs the curse and gives him back his soul. And Buffy must send Angel to hell instead of soulless Angelus. Add the fact that her mother told her to not come back, and she feels isolated from everyone. And she runs away, feeling alone and betrayed by everyone.
                    Buffy proved in "Becoming, Part I" she couldn't actually beat Angel when she was fighting in "curse-stall mode". You are not recognizing that which should be obvious -- she won the fight because she was fighting to kill him. It is frankly naive to act like that fight would have unfolded blow for blow in the same way if Buffy's real motivation was to stall long enough for Willow to curse him, instead of to defeat and kill him.

                    Which, by the way, she was supposed to wait how long? 15 minutes? A half hour? Until Willow told Cordy to drive over there and tell Buffy it hadn't worked? The stalling for the curse plan would have been sheer idiocy, since Buffy would have had absolutely no way to know if she should keep waiting or move on to trying to kill him.
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                    • #25
                      Can you say: big fat logical fallacy? You are bashing Xander for thinking of the big picture in 'Becoming' and you are also bashing him for not thinking of the big picture in a different situation. This whole argument is nonsensical. No, scratch that: this whole argument is downright idiotic. It's like complaining about Faith killing people while simultaneously complaining about her decision to turn herself into jail. If you disliked Xander for the lie, you should be praising his character development and his conduct re: Willow and Anya in the later seasons. You aren't, which means you're contradicting your own argument. Which means your argument is complete and utter nonsense.
                      First of all I'm asking you to take it easy with the insults and the throwing epithets at me because next time I won't hesitate to report your post instead of replying. Do you have something to add with arguments? I'm all ears. Being rude at me for the second time will only make me go to the first mod available.

                      So? Buffy's worship of Jonathan in 'Superstar' was also based on fake memories. For example, she believed he starred in 'The Matrix', which obviously wasn't the case.
                      And her worship started fading the minute she realized there was something wrong. On the other hand her love for Dawn has never faded once she learnt that she wasn't her real sister. Meaning that the monks only implanted the memories, not the love.

                      The fact still remains - she was an object.
                      Was is past tense. Now she's human. Present tense.

                      An object that everyone was forced to love because they received fake memories.
                      You contradicted yourself by bringing Jonathan's example. People had fake memories about him and whatever they felt about him faded once they learned the truth. Which didn't happen in Dawn's case. And I believe you understand that BtVS is a show full of metaphors about real life. And Dawn represents the adoption here. So don't tell me that the love that people felt for her wasn't real, because Whedon certainly wasn't planning to tell us that adopted children have only fake love. On the other hand if you believe that, there's nothing I can do about it.

                      The idea that "Giles was safe in the next room" would be absurd enough to ignore if I didn't have to ask... what it matters?

                      I mean, it should go without saying, and absolutely WOULD go without saying in a real world armed rescue situation that the hostages aren't "safe in the next room" while the fighting, shooting, and stabbing are going on. You get them out of the picture as fast as safely possible, because otherwise, they are just there to be used as human shields or there to be slaughtered gratuitously for a distraction or psychological ploy. It's a complete joke to think that Buffy would or should have even considered not taking Xander along to get Giles out once she had him with her, because that was the smartest and most tactical thing to do, period. "Safe in the next room", heh.

                      But... why does this even come up? What is the purpose? To establish Xander served no other purpose in being there? Because that doesn't work either -- he had as just as much reason to be there as Buffy herself did, even if he doesn't have her skills and resources, because he lives in the world too, he was in just as much danger, and if Buffy had been shot in the back by that cop when she escaped than sure as hell Xander and/or Oz and/or Cordy and/or Willow would have marched on that mansion to try to save their world.
                      The only reason I mentioned that wasn't to say that Xander was wrong to help Buffy and Giles. The only reason I said it is because at the end Xander caused more damage than being helpful. So because of his lie or better his lie was the final cut in Buffy's heart that drove her to runaway. And not only that, but he has the nerve to judge her the very next time he sees her in S3E02 telling her that "you can't just bury stuff Buffy it will come right back to get you" and criticize her of acting stupid and immature.

                      Buffy proved in "Becoming, Part I" she couldn't actually beat Angel when she was fighting in "curse-stall mode".
                      She was buying time, at the beginning. And then she grabs mister pointy and tells him to finish it. And then Angel informs her that he wasn't after her and she runs back to the library to help. If Angel hadn't said anything, she would have finished everything with him right there.

                      You are not recognizing that which should be obvious -- she won the fight because she was fighting to kill him. It is frankly naive to act like that fight would have unfolded blow for blow in the same way if Buffy's real motivation was to stall long enough for Willow to curse him, instead of to defeat and kill him.

                      Which, by the way, she was supposed to wait how long? 15 minutes? A half hour? Until Willow told Cordy to drive over there and tell Buffy it hadn't worked? The stalling for the curse plan would have been sheer idiocy, since Buffy would have had absolutely no way to know if she should keep waiting or move on to trying to kill him.
                      And again you're forgetting my original argument that everything would have worked exactly the same at her fighting Angel even if Xander hadn't said anything. She would still have fought Angel with her only purpose to kill him. Xander's lie only worked to maximize her later depression. Because she thought that Willow told her to kick his ass and at the same time she was trying to curse him. Something that she was still very angry at 5 years later when she mentioned it again. And surprise, Xander didn't have the courage to admit the truth not even then. Every development he has on the subject is right after that episode wehn he had to defend Anya against Buffy. Up until then he was just an hypocrite. All those years.

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                      • #26
                        If Xander hadn't lied about it Buffy wouldn't have had to kill Angel.
                        Yeah, because she would have used her teleport abilities to stop Angel from pulling that sword. Oh, wait, she doesn't have such abilities. And of course, the whole thing could have easily failed anyway since Spike wasn't on the plan and instead of pummelling Angel he could have just staked him. That would have been kind of cool, IMO. Anyway, the point is Buffy had all the reasons in the world to try to stop Angel from pulling the sword ASAP, lie or no lie, as for all she knew Acathla might have sent the world to hell in one minute, leaving her no time to fight Angel.

                        And Buffy must send Angel to hell instead of soulless Angelus.
                        Why are you blaming Xander for that instead of Willow or bad luck? Seriously, I would love to hear how if Xander had told the truth Buffy would have defeated Angel faster and would have been easier for her to send him to hell.

                        You're right, there is a change in attitude and in voice. But not in Buffy. Buffy is determined all the way. The change in attitude and in voice and in way of acting is in Xander. Look at the way he talks to her when he first finds her and look at the way the scene ends.
                        So? Even if you are right and Xander did misread Buffy this still shows he changed his mind and wasn't planning a lie with his Machiavellian ingenuity all along. The very fact that Buffy stops walking, never mind they are in a rush to save the world points to me that yes, she was quite interested in what Willow might have to say and Xander recognized that.

                        Like @Vampmogs said, they kind of revisited it already. Only the second time he was ready to die in order to stop Willow.
                        Apples and oranges much? It's not like Xander had the means to kill Willow and refused.

                        People had fake memories about him and whatever they felt about him faded once they learned the truth.
                        No, it faded after the spell was broken.

                        Something that she was still very angry at 5 years later when she mentioned it again.
                        If Buffy believes Willow would say "kick his ass " then try the spell anyway and never apologize for that then Buffy is a moron and her being extremely close to Willow in S3-4 makes no sense whatsoever. Personally I ignore the silly continuity porn in Selfless, everything makes total sense if you assume that Buffy did like me and didn't even remember what Xander had said after all the shocks of that day. Or, gasp, she knew that Xander did it and understood why.

                        If Angel hadn't said anything, she would have finished everything with him right there.
                        You mean like she did in Go, Fish? Oh, wait, she didn't even bother chasing him.

                        So don't tell me that the love that people felt for her wasn't real, because Whedon certainly wasn't planning to tell us that adopted children have only fake love.
                        He kind of screwed the adoption metaphor with the Summers blood nonsense, me thinks.
                        Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
                          Yeah, because she would have used her teleport abilities to stop Angel from pulling that sword. Oh, wait, she doesn't have such abilities. And of course, the whole thing could have easily failed anyway since Spike wasn't on the plan and instead of pummelling Angel he could have just staked him. That would have been kind of cool, IMO. Anyway, the point is Buffy had all the reasons in the world to try to stop Angel from pulling the sword ASAP, lie or no lie, as for all she knew Acathla might have sent the world to hell in one minute, leaving her no time to fight Angel.



                          Why are you blaming Xander for that instead of Willow or bad luck? Seriously, I would love to hear how if Xander had told the truth Buffy would have defeated Angel faster and would have been easier for her to send him to hell.
                          Yeah, read again my posts, you misunderstood what I said. Was talking hypothetically there. Never said that if Buffy had known the truth it would have been easier for him to send him to hell. I meant the way that that fact made her feel later and drove her to run away from home, that would have been easier.



                          So? Even if you are right and Xander did misread Buffy this still shows he changed his mind and wasn't planning a lie with his Machiavellian ingenuity all along. The very fact that Buffy stops walking, never mind they are in a rush to save the world points to me that yes, she was quite interested in what Willow might have to say and Xander recognized that.
                          Xander stops walking. Turns on Buffy. The camera is on him. Xander stops Buffy from walking to tell her what Willow said. And then he decides to lie about it. That's the way that the scene was directed. Camera on Xander, he's the one that stops and stops Buffy.


                          Apples and oranges much? It's not like Xander had the means to kill Willow and refused.
                          Had every mean to let Buffy kill Anya though, but instead he was ready to die in order to protect Anya from Buffy.
                          No, it faded after the spell was broken.
                          No, they were still able to remember things even after the spell was broken. But the love for Jonathan had already started fading away. Everybody still loves Dawn even when they learn the truth about her.

                          You mean like she did in Go, Fish? Oh, wait, she didn't even bother chasing him.
                          She wasn't ready yet at that point.

                          He kind of screwed the adoption metaphor with the Summers blood nonsense, me thinks.
                          Well he had to justify Buffy's sacrifice after all, probably that's the best he found

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                          • #28
                            The lie did have a significant fallout, IMO. I think it's pretty clear from Selfless that Buffy harboured resentment towards both Xander and Willow because of that line. If Willow had really said it, which Buffy believed she had, it would display an amazing insensitivity towards her friend and would prove without question that she had completely misread Buffy's feelings on the situation. Buffy was left feeling like her friend didn't get it at all and, as she says in Dead Man's Party, "wouldn't understand" the pain she was going through. I most certainly consider it one of the main reasons Buffy ran away and couldn't bring herself to approach the gang when she stood outside the high school. I also think it's the reason Buffy was so closed off from Willow upon her return and I feel for Willow greatly because she had no way of knowing why.

                            When she throws that line back in Xander's face in S7 I think it's evident that it had a profound impact on her. After all those years she never forgot. And, yes, I agree 100% with all those who have commented on how angry she seemed when she finally brought it up. The fact she says "both of you" when claiming they "cheered her on" to kill Angel is evidence enough that she never knew it was a lie. Which means that for all these years it has hurt her and bubbled under the surface.

                            As I've said, since Xander didn't plan on lying I don't really hold this against him. It's not reasonable to expect someone to foresee all these consequences when they say something in the heat of the moment. Though it's a reminder of how powerful words can be and how just one sentence can have a lasting impact on someone far more than it was ever intended. To be honest, I think Xander barley remembered that he had even said it which is why when Buffy snaps at him after he says "if you knew how I felt..." it's such a dramatic moment. "Do you even remember that?", indeed.

                            Originally posted by dina View Post
                            Xander stops walking. Turns on Buffy. The camera is on him. Xander stops Buffy from walking to tell her what Willow said. And then he decides to lie about it. That's the way that the scene was directed. Camera on Xander, he's the one that stops and stops Buffy.
                            I think what people are saying is that when Xander says "Willow said to tell you..." that for a moment, when Buffy says "tell me what?", she looks hopeful. I honestly don't know. The camera doesn’t really focus on Buffy’s expression there and I think it could be interpreted multiple ways. I do think it's absolutely clear from that scene though that Xander intended on relaying Willow's message to Buffy and it was halfway through doing it when he changed his mind. He most certainly didn’t plan on lying to her all along as if that were true it would have been far easier to just not mention Willow at all.
                            Last edited by vampmogs; 02-02-12, 05:56 AM.
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                            • #29
                              The lie did have a significant fallout, IMO. I think it's pretty clear from Selfless that Buffy harboured resentment towards both Xander and Willow because of that line.
                              That's why I describe it as retcon. A writer can't just drop such a bomb four years later. If they want me to believe Buffy showed resentment towards Willow and Xander, they had to actually show it in S3. If Buffy really thinks Willow lied to her like that, her being far more hostile to Xander than to Willow in DMP and Revelations makes no sense whatsoever. I suspect Drew Goddard just wanted to show off how much he knew the earlier episodes (sort of like Christos Gage who seems to be indulging in a lot of continuity porn in A&F), so he had to bring up "The Lie". It's a textbook example of telling rather than showing. Needing to clarify an important plot point four seasons later usually means you didn't do a good job the first time around...or you want to retcon something.

                              I also think it's the reason Buffy was so closed off from Willow upon her return and I feel for Willow greatly because she had no way of knowing why.
                              Buffy is so closed off that Willow stands her up in DMP, rather than vice versa and they are back to being extremely close at the end of the episode and remain so until Dawn appears.

                              If Willow had really said it, which Buffy believed she had, it would display an amazing insensitivity towards her friend and would prove without question that she had completely misread Buffy's feelings on the situation.
                              Why would Buffy believe Willow had actually instructed Xander to say "Kick his ass"? First, if she didn't want to give Buffy false hopes, she didn't need to instruct Xander to say anything. Second, Willow is Bangel shipper number one. Third, Willow is a terrible liar and prone to self-flagellation, you would think that it would have seemed a little odd to Buffy that Willow shows no guilt whatsoever when the subject of Angel comes up except for a bit in Faith, Hope and Trick and there Buffy seems very sincere in accepting Willow's apology. If Buffy remembered Xander's words (I think everything until Selfless makes perfect sense if we go with the interpretation that she forgot that incident) and still thought that Willow lied to her, rather than Xander, well I would say she really doesn't know Willow or Xander very well.

                              I most certainly consider it one of the main reasons Buffy ran away and couldn't bring herself to approach the gang when she stood outside the high school.
                              I don't. I think Buffy felt guilty for the injuries Willow, Xander and Giles had sustained and felt she shouldn't expect them to feel bad that Angel's gone. Also, she just wanted to be alone for a while. I see no resentment in her towards Willow or Xander or anyone else.

                              Had every mean to let Buffy kill Anya though, but instead he was ready to die in order to protect Anya from Buffy.
                              I can't help but notice that I never defended Selfless. I hate Selfless. Xander's "When our friends go all crazy and start killing people, we help them." line epitomises the complete moral bankruptcy of the show at this point, IMO. And Selfless being a bad rip-off of Becoming epitomises the creative bankruptcy.

                              Everybody still loves Dawn even when they learn the truth about her.
                              But would they love her so strongly if the memories were totally gone? I doubt it.

                              She wasn't ready yet at that point.
                              She claims she is ready in Killed By Death. Why should Xander trust her claims in Becoming any more than he did in say Go, Fish? He can't exactly take a chance as the fate of the world depends on Buffy's resolve.
                              Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 02-02-12, 06:01 AM.
                              Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                              • #30
                                Well, "do you even remember that" was in reference to something that happened after the lie, and would have pretty much happened anyway even in the best case scenario, and that Xander didn't even find about for months. She was admonishing him for not remembering how much it hurt her to kill Angel because he was accusing her of being tone deaf to his feelings about Anya. She was not referring, with those words, to the lie, she wasn't admonishing them for having "cheered her on" toward killing Angel, just for not having remembered that that's what she had to do.

                                But, again, nothing to apologize for. To me, it's incidental whether he set out to lie to Buffy or not with regard to holding it against him -- I can't hold against him because it was the right thing to do. Not an okay thing to do, but the affirmatively right thing to do, superior than other choices. As if to say, if he had looked Willow right in her Resolve Face and said "you do what you want, but I'm going after Buffy and I'm going to make sure she sees this through", that he'd have been making the right decision.

                                Could he have said something about it afterward? Sure. Must he have? I don't know. Would it have helped her? Would it have any ministrative value, benefited Buffy at all to know? Or is the idea that he should have told her because Buffy and Willow both might have hated him and that is an end unto itself for some in the audience?
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