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Xander's Lie in Becoming

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  • 34 days between posts. Holy Thread Necro Batman.

    I'm going to sort of summary reply because, frankly, there's not much new here anyway. Your consistent habit of basically requiring, demanding, that everybody, but Xander especially, have absolutely and unquestioned moral certainty in Buffy at all times and in all matters is wrongheaded, and will never form the basis for an argument that will convince me that KFC sells chicken, let alone that Xander or Giles or Willow have to act this way or that way toward Buffy. There is zero evidence at all, let alone certainty, that Xander was ever informed of what Buffy told Willow and Giles, and really, there's only reason to think she wouldn't have told him because she probably couldn't bear any ambiguous sympathy on the subject.

    If you think that "liking research" is the most important consideration when comparing someone to a Watcher, or describing their behavior is "Watcher-like", my first assumption would be that you were new to the series and still working through the first few episodes. Since I know that's not true, there's not much I can do with it. I was referring to the moral quality of Watchers as making world-minded decisions that don't take into consideration the lives, let alone feelings, of individuals; the way Watchers do. The most Watcher-like thing Xander ever did was decide Buffy's heartbreak and Willow's good intentions and Angel's very existence were acceptable losses if it meant saving the world.

    I love that you basically say, in almost as many words "there's Buffy, then there's God" in terms of moral authority in the Buffyverse, and expect this to be a point taken seriously in discussion. Xander is an independent actor because he's a human being, and that comes standard, whether it's used or not. He has no obligation to just do whatever Buffy says when Buffy says it or to substitute Buffy's judgment for his own, the notion is absurd. He is entitled to make his own bet, basically, on whether Buffy can take the guy out if she is still hung up on saving him, and he did.

    That’s your right, but it’s not certain that Joss doesn’t think what Xander did is wrong.
    That's what he said, though, so you can put a tooth under your pillow or whatever else you can do to find "uncertainty" and wish he really means something else. That's your right.
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    • KingofCretins

      34 days between posts. Holy Thread Necro Batman.
      I don’t have the time or inclination to be constantly on this Board. My posting weeks after a post is not new. As-is, I’m on this Board 10 plus hours a week.

      Your consistent habit of basically requiring, demanding, that everybody, but Xander especially, have absolutely and unquestioned moral certainty in Buffy at all times
      Huh? I don’t even know where this comes from. Buffy’s concerns are more important than Xander’s concerns. I’d add that Willow’s and Giles’ concerns are as well.

      There is zero evidence at all, let alone certainty, that Xander was ever informed of what Buffy told Willow and Giles, and really, there's only reason to think she wouldn't have told him because she probably couldn't bear any ambiguous sympathy on the subject.
      If this refers to the Big Lie, the point is that Xander never told Buffy about it.

      If you think that "liking research" is the most important consideration when comparing someone to a Watcher,
      This is laughable. “Liking research” is in the job description for a Watcher.

      or describing their behavior is "Watcher-like",
      We see actual Watchers in the Buffyverse. Xander was never Watcher-like.

      I was referring to the moral quality of Watchers as making world-minded decisions that don't take into consideration the lives, let alone feelings, of individuals; the way Watchers do.
      This implies that Xander was being completely objective and had no personal bias in the matter. This also degrades Willow’s resolve in doing the Resurrection Spell.

      The most Watcher-like thing Xander ever did was decide Buffy's heartbreak and Willow's good intentions and Angel's very existence were acceptable losses if it meant saving the world.
      No, the most Watcher-like thing Xander ever did was in “The Freshman” (4.01) when he got Buffy’s emotional state better.

      Again, Xander in “Becoming Part I” (2.21) – along with the rest of the Scoobies and Kendra – reasoned that Buffy could hold Angel off. That didn’t change in “Becoming Part II” (2.22).

      I love that you basically say, in almost as many words "there's Buffy, then there's God" in terms of moral authority in the Buffyverse,
      I’m not sure what the point of your statement is but, other than the Knights of Bzyanthium existing, there’s no evidence of God in the Buffyverse.

      Buffy is the highest moral authority in the Buffyverse. And it seems here that you are implying that somehow Xander is a higher moral authority than Buffy. Frankly, it’s silly to say that Xander is a moral authority in “Becoming” – he’s biased. He doesn’t want Buffy/Angel happening again. He still wants to be with Buffy.

      Also, you are implying that Xander is somehow a higher moral authority than Giles and Willow – both who want the re-ensouling spell to be done on Angel.

      Xander is an independent actor […]
      That’s simply false: he’s a member of the Scooby Gang and is subordinate to Buffy.

      He has no obligation to just do whatever Buffy says when Buffy says it or to substitute Buffy's judgment for his own,
      He is a member of the Scooby Gang and Buffy is the leader of the Scooby Gang.

      My quote: That’s your right, but it’s not certain that Joss doesn’t think what Xander did is wrong.

      That's what he said, though,
      No, it’s not. And you seem to want to ignore that Joss said that what Xander did in “Becoming Part II” (2.22) is a bad trait of Xander’s. He wasn’t lauding Xander for what he did.

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