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  • Xander's Lie in Becoming

    We've been discussing this in the Mark Watches Buffy thread. We're going to continue the discussion here.

    My opinion is here:

    1) Xander didn't plan to lie to Buffy. He was going to tell her the truth, but changed his mind when he noticed Buffy being hopeful.

    2) I think he shouldn't have lied. I think it's understandable why lied and I don't think he was being manipulative.

    3) I think Xander was scared to tell Buffy and Willow the truth afterwards. I think he knew what he had done was wrong and that it would anger Buffy and Willow. He kept it to himself, which was a coward move IMO.
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  • #2
    I think he went there planning to not bring it up, and that he lied because he mistakenly tipped his hand about an urgent point about Willow and saw Buffy crumble before his eyes in terms of fighting focus. He lied to save the world, he did exactly the right thing at that point that a responsible person should do -- he passed the "WWGD" test, certainly (what would Giles do?).

    I also disagree that he thought, let alone "knew" what he did was wrong, because it was not. I think he didn't tell Buffy and Willow because no good could come of them knowing it, and, yeah, sure, he was afraid of losing their friendship. They had neither one exactly demonstrated this profound sense of objectivity or perspective about the Angel situation. I do think telling Giles would have been a good move, and it would have made a good scene, but oddly enough the level of the interest shown in that kind of rich development for him was already plunging at the point at which that could have happened. I absolutely think Giles would have been proud of him for doing the hard thing, the "thing other people can't... shouldn't have to".
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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      II also disagree that he thought, let alone "knew" what he did was wrong,
      I'm basing it on the guilty/awkward look he had later when Willow mentioned Buffy and Angel. Which was the only clue we have. The whole storyline was dropped. Like we shouldn't take Xander's lie seriously until a writer decided years later to bring it up.
      Made by Trickyboxes
      Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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      • #4
        Replying to points made in the "Mark Watches Buffy" thread. So apparently the new bone of contention isn't that Xander didn't tell the truth, it's the specific lie he used. Seriously? So if he had said nothing that would have been perfectly okay but a lie that didn't change the situation at all is unforgivable? Colour me confused.

        Also, it's funny that Buffy being ready to sacrifice every human being in the world for the sake of her fake sister is viewed by most fans as perfectly understandable while Xander valuing his own skin and the survival of the world more than the very small chance of saving Buffy's twu luv is seen as the crime of the century.

        Originally posted by dina View Post
        And besides, only the fact that so many people are angry at Xander about it, it must prove something. Even Xander's fans find it wrong.
        Argumentum ad populum is rarely convincing, especially in regards to art. The Buffy fandom is so broken into various factions that many people dislike almost every scene that is even slightly controversial.
        Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 01-02-12, 07:42 PM.
        Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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        • #5
          1) Xander didn't plan to lie to Buffy. He was going to tell her the truth, but changed his mind when he noticed Buffy being hopeful.
          Watch the scene again. There is no hope from Buffy's side. Nothing about hope written in the shooting script or in the transcript. Xander stops Buffy from walking, turns to her, starts talking, says that Willow has a message, stops talking, Buffy waits to hear what's Willow's message, no reply just an open mouth by Xander, so she asks, what? There is no hope there just puzzlement about what is the message and why Xander stopped talking.


          2) I think he shouldn't have lied. I think it's understandable why lied and I don't think he was being manipulative.
          Never admitted that, one should wonder why. And remember all those times that Xander lied and never said anything or admitted it the very last moment. Like trying to rape Buffy when possessed but pretending he didn't remember anything while being possessed. Like never forgetting who Spike was and how many Spike had killed unless Spike was needed as a babysitter, those moments he just happened to get a total black out about Spike's past. Like not admitting to Anya that his proposal was one made in the heat of the moment when he thought they would die and spent months keeping it from his friends. And then spend more months not telling Anya that he had regretted it, lying to her that he still wanted to marry her, when even the same night that he announced it to his friends he was making funny faces at Willow's comments (having Anya and her eccentricities by his side for the rest of his life) or going out of the house with Buffy to take some air because he was feeling getting drawn while his fiancée was inside the house celebrating the same fact. And many more occasions that right now I'm not in a mood to spend my time thinking about Xander's story.


          3) I think Xander was scared to tell Buffy and Willow the truth afterwards. I think he knew what he had done was wrong and that it would anger Buffy and Willow. He kept it to himself, which was a coward move IMO.
          Coward and hypocrite. But won't be the first or the last time for Xander.

          He lied to save the world, he did exactly the right thing at that point that a responsible person should do -- he passed the "WWGD" test, certainly (what would Giles do?).
          It was his choice to lie in the first place. And never admitted it. That's not what a responsible person does, that's what a mercenary does. And Xander isn't Giles. As for the rest you have said, they're just your opinion about it and sorry, I don't want to argue about opinions, you have every right to believe whatever you choose.

          So apparently the new bone of contention isn't that Xander didn't tell the truth, it's the specific lie he used. Seriously?
          It's not the specific lie, it's the lie and the fact that he put words into someone's mouth. The same someone that was risking her life, again, trying to curse Angelus. Last two times that that happened Jenny and Kendra died and she almost got a brain damage.

          for the sake of her fake sister
          Fake sister? Millions of people with adopted children or siblings will tell you the opposite. Family is not who is blood related to you, family is who raises you. And Buffy had every memory of Dawn's life into her mind. She's her sister, end of story. Dawn is much more related to Buffy than her actual father that has abandoned them.

          Argumentum ad populum are rarely convincing, especially in regards to art. The Buffy fandom is so broken into various factions that many people dislike almost every scene that is even slightly controversial.
          And I'm sure that the Buffy fandom is full of hardcore Xander fans. Oh wait, it's the opposite, it's full of Xander haters or Xander.don't.care.about.him fans.

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          • #6
            Fake sister? Millions of people with adopted children or siblings will tell you the opposite. Family is not who is blood related to you, family is who raises you. And Buffy had every memory of Dawn's life into her mind. She's her sister, end of story. Dawn is much more related to Buffy than her actual father that has abandoned them.
            Buffy's love for Dawn is based to a great extent on the fake memories. And fine, call Dawn a real sister, doesn't make Buffy's attitude any less selfish and despicable to me, especially considering Dawn was going to die in the apocalypse too.

            And I'm sure that the Buffy fandom is full of hardcore Xander fans. Oh wait, it's the opposite, it's full of Xander haters or Xander.don't.care.about.him fans.
            And this supports your point how exactly? If anything, the more Xander haters there are, the less the general opinion for "the lie" can be considered objective. I couldn't care less if 99.99% of other fans think my opinion of Xander or anything else is wrong, wrong, wrong. This doesn't prove anything at all. If tomorrow you find out that everyone on this forum has suddenly started to love Xander this wouldn't change your own opinion of him, would it?

            It's not the specific lie, it's the lie and the fact that he put words into someone's mouth. The same someone that was risking her life, again, trying to curse Angelus. Last two times that that happened Jenny and Kendra died and she almost got a brain damage.
            And you yourself suggested in the other thread that it would have been okay if Xander had put other words in Willow's mouth ("Willow told me to...wish you luck"), so yes, it's the specific lie you seem to have a problem with. And Kendra died because Buffy was blinded by the hope of curing Angel, so if anything this field Xander's unwillingness to fully trust Buffy's resolve.
            Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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            • #7
              Buffy's love for Dawn is based to a great extent on the fake memories. And fine, call Dawn a real sister, doesn't make Buffy's attitude any less selfish and despicable to me, especially considering Dawn was going to die in the apocalypse too.
              Are you trying to change the subject or get me off topic again twice in the same day? I've already gone off topic once today. Because I thought that this thread was specifically opened about Xander not about Buffy and if she was right in "The Gift"

              And this supports your point how exactly? If anything, the more Xander haters there are, the less the general opinion for "the lie" can be considered objective. I couldn't care less if 99.99% of other fans think my opinion of Xander or anything else is wrong, wrong, wrong. This doesn't prove anything at all. If tomorrow you find out that everyone on this forum has suddenly started to love Xander this wouldn't change your own opinion of him, would it?
              Because that was the turning point for Xander. Up until then there were people that hated him, after that the numbers of haters became enormous that Xander had to be turned into a comic relief character in order to survive in the show.
              And you yourself suggested in the other thread that it would have been okay if Xander had put other words in Willow's mouth ("Willow told me to...wish you luck"),
              I'm sure Willow was wishing good luck to Buffy so that wouldn't have been a lie actually. Unless you believe that Willow was wishing Angelus good luck.

              And Kendra died because Buffy was blinded by the hope of curing Angel, so if anything this field Xander's unwillingness to fully trust Buffy's resolve.
              The team thought that Kendra died because Angelus had found out about them trying to curse him. It was Spike that told Buffy that Angel had Giles and the attack was to get Giles not because Angelus had found out that they were trying to curse him. Xander had no idea that the plan was to get Giles, he thought together with the others that Angelus somehow found out about it and did exactly the same thing like he did with Jenny:attack.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
                I'm basing it on the guilty/awkward look he had later when Willow mentioned Buffy and Angel. Which was the only clue we have. The whole storyline was dropped. Like we shouldn't take Xander's lie seriously until a writer decided years later to bring it up.
                That only shows that he felt bad about what he did, which doesn't mean he regretted doing it. I think he regretted having to do it, but I doubt he ever felt what he did was wrong. And why should he anyway? The world was at stake and he erred on the side of caution. If Buffy is really as "about the mission" as people claim, she'd understand.
                “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” -- Albert Einstein

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  Watch the scene again. There is no hope from Buffy's side. Nothing about hope written in the shooting script or in the transcript. Xander stops Buffy from walking, turns to her, starts talking, says that Willow has a message, stops talking, Buffy waits to hear what's Willow's message, no reply just an open mouth by Xander, so she asks, what? There is no hope there just puzzlement about what is the message and why Xander stopped talking.
                  Personally i've watched that scene lots of times and every time I see that hope and hear it in her tone of voice. There's a switch in her focus, an absolute rapt attention to Xander that says she's paying very careful attention to what he's about to say. It's not "yeah, what's the message" it's "tell me what" as Willow has actively been trying to work out the curse I think Buffy is smart enough to figure out what any message might purport to so it's there in the scene for me. If you don't see it though you don't see it I guess. I do though and I'm gonna go with what I see on the screen.


                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  Never admitted that, one should wonder why. And remember all those times that Xander lied and never said anything or admitted it the very last moment. Like trying to rape Buffy when possessed but pretending he didn't remember anything while being possessed. Like never forgetting who Spike was and how many Spike had killed unless Spike was needed as a babysitter, those moments he just happened to get a total black out about Spike's past. Like not admitting to Anya that his proposal was one made in the heat of the moment when he thought they would die and spent months keeping it from his friends. And then spend more months not telling Anya that he had regretted it, lying to her that he still wanted to marry her, when even the same night that he announced it to his friends he was making funny faces at Willow's comments (having Anya and her eccentricities by his side for the rest of his life) or going out of the house with Buffy to take some air because he was feeling getting drawn while his fiancée was inside the house celebrating the same fact. And many more occasions that right now I'm not in a mood to spend my time thinking about Xander's story.
                  Okay so obviously a fan then. As i said elsewhere i think Xander doesn't mention it again partly because he himself is traumatised by what he had a hand in Buffy doing. He was a part in Buffy killing Angel and that almost destroyed her. I don't think I would particularly look to bring it up again. Similar would go for the hyena thing (shame mainly), the spike thing is no different from just about anyone else and I call the Anya thing a radical interpretation of a nervous man who isn't sure he can make his relationship with the woman he loves work and fears that he would hurt her too much if it failed


                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  Coward and hypocrite. But won't be the first or the last time for Xander.
                  Orrrr brave, loyal, and ready to take on the forces of darkness time and time again with no training and no special powers.

                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  It was his choice to lie in the first place. And never admitted it. That's not what a responsible person does, that's what a mercenary does. And Xander isn't Giles. As for the rest you have said, they're just your opinion about it and sorry, I don't want to argue about opinions, you have every right to believe whatever you choose.
                  A mercenary kills people for money. People lie though, people lie everyday for all sorts of reasons and (correct me if I'm wrong here King) the point is that Giles is a utilitarian in such matters. If a lie or a death is necessary he won't hesitate, he won't look to be the hero but he will do what's needed. I think that's what Xander is certainly, at the least, trying to do.

                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  It's not the specific lie, it's the lie and the fact that he put words into someone's mouth. The same someone that was risking her life, again, trying to curse Angelus. Last two times that that happened Jenny and Kendra died and she almost got a brain damage.
                  And yet in the other thread you gave several examples of other lies which would have been more acceptable so it is looking like it's this lie you have problems with. Also Willow was risking her life whether Xander lies or not so that's really not the issue here.

                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  Fake sister? Millions of people with adopted children or siblings will tell you the opposite. Family is not who is blood related to you, family is who raises you. And Buffy had every memory of Dawn's life into her mind. She's her sister, end of story. Dawn is much more related to Buffy than her actual father that has abandoned them.
                  Okay. Personally i'd be happy with real sister. She's still ready to put the life of that sister above the lives of everybody on the planet. I'd still see that as morally more questionable than Xanders lie.

                  Originally posted by dina View Post
                  And I'm sure that the Buffy fandom is full of hardcore Xander fans. Oh wait, it's the opposite, it's full of Xander haters or Xander.don't.care.about.him fans.
                  Well there's a few of us about. Personally i'm more of a Willow fan but Xander is up there as well and I think he is a wonderful, rounded, sometimes flawed character that gives fantastic balance to the show and that he shows himself throughout the show to be a young man who's maturity grows and grows and is capable of some amazing acts of selflessness. By the look of this thread it would seem I'm not alone so maybe there are a few Xander lovers, maybe a few more than you thought.
                  Last edited by tangent; 01-02-12, 08:51 PM.
                  JUST ENOUGH KILL

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                  • #10
                    Are you trying to change the subject or get me off topic again twice in the same day? I've already gone off topic once today. Because I thought that this thread was specifically opened about Xander not about Buffy and if she was right in "The Gift"
                    Yes, the thread is about Xander, doesn't mean we can't compare the fan reaction to his actions to the fan reaction to problematic actions of other characters.

                    Because that was the turning point for Xander. Up until then there were people that hated him, after that the numbers of haters became enormous that Xander had to be turned into a comic relief character in order to survive in the show.
                    Again, what exactly does this prove? That Joss would cave to pressure from fans? So?

                    I'm sure Willow was wishing good luck to Buffy so that wouldn't have been a lie actually. Unless you believe that Willow was wishing Angelus good luck.
                    It is a lie since Willow didn't tell Xander to say that to Buffy. If Buffy said "Willow told me to tell you she loves you" this would have been a lie even if we know that Willow did love Xander.

                    The team thought that Kendra died because Angelus had found out about them trying to curse him.
                    Be that as it may, the plan to stall for time had been a disaster. If anything went wrong this time the world was over. In this situation I find it completely bizarre that Xander is expected to value Angel's life or anything else above maximizing the chance for saving the world. The only way I can justify this is if I assume he knows he is a character in a TV show and the world wasn't really going to end, so he better be honest because he doesn't risk anything by doing that. This attitude seems to come up a lot when people say things like "well, nothing bad happened when Buffy was hiding Angel" or "Willow was right to send Vamp!Willow back to her reality since she was staked immediately", as if the characters could have known that at the time they took those decisions. The fact of the matter is that Buffy had had months to kill Angel and many people had paid with their lives for her inability to do so. And yes, it's horrible and heartbreaking that she is put in such a tough situation but it's also perfectly natural of Xander to doubt that Buffy would go all out if she is still clinging to the hope of Angel being cured. Stalling for time would have been a very, very risky strategy considering Xander didn't know that Spike had switched sides and there was still Giles being held as a hostage.
                    Last edited by Jack Shaftoe; 01-02-12, 08:48 PM.
                    Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                    • #11
                      Personally i've watched that scene lots of times and every time I see that hope and hear it in her tone of voice. There's a switch in her focus, an absolute rapt attention to Xander that says she's paying very careful attention to what he's about to say. It's not "yeah, what's the message" it's "tell me what" as Willow has actively been trying to work out the curse I think Buffy is smart enough to figure out what any message might purport to so it's there in the scene for me. If you don't see it though you don't see it I guess. I do though and I'm gonna go with what I see on the screen.
                      AThe shooting script says nothing about hope or change in attitude or whatever. And when opinions differ, that's the job of the shooting script.

                      Okay so obviously a fan then. As i said elsewhere i think Xander doesn't mention it again partly because he himself is traumatised by what he had a hand in Buffy doing. He was a part in Buffy killing Ange land that almost destroyed her. I don't think I would particularly look to bring it up again.
                      And just forgot to mention anything to Willow 3 months that Buffy was missing.

                      similar would go for the hyena thing (shame mainly), the spike thing is no different from just about anyone else and I call the Anya thing a radical interpretation of a nervous man who isn't sure he can make his relationship with the woman he loves work and fears that he would hurt her too much if it failed
                      Only lies like in OMWF that he was pretending to be searching for the demon in question when he was the one responsible for summoning him.
                      And yet in the other thread you gave several examples of other lies which would have been more acceptable so it is looking like it's this lie you have problems with. Also Willow was risking her life wether Xander lies or not so that's really not the issue here.
                      Not examples of lying, examples of hiding what he had to say. Huge difference between lying about something and not saying something.

                      Okay. Personally i'd be happy with real sister. She's still ready to put the life of that sister above the lives of everybody on the planet. I'd still see that as morally more questionable than Xanders lie.
                      Which I'd be happy to talk about in the specific thread if you open it. Here we don't talk about Buffy in the gift.

                      Yes, the thread is about Xander, doesn't mean we can't compare the fan reaction to his actions to the fan reaction to problematic actions of other characters.
                      In a specific thread, yes, this one was opened specifically about Xander.

                      Again, what exactly does this prove? That Joss would cave to pressure from fans? So?
                      Proves how much wrong he was for deciding to lie in the first place. The hating against him wouldn't have been the same if that scene had been played with him not saying anything, but just following Buffy to help her instead.

                      It is a lie since Willow didn't tell Xander to say that to Buffy. If Buffy said "Willow told me to tell you she loves you" this would have been a lie even if we know that Willow did love Xander.
                      Then if you prefer "Willow said....nothing important", or "Willow said...I'll tell you later."

                      Be that as it may, the plan to stall for time had been a disaster. If anything went wrong this time the world was over. In this situation I find it completely bizarre that Xander is expected to value Angel's life or anything else above maximizing the chance for saving the world. The only way I can justify this is if I assume he knows he is a character in a TV show and the world wasn't really going to end, so he better be honest because he doesn't risk anything by doing that. This attitude seems to come up a lot when people say things like "well, nothing bad happened when Buffy was hiding Angel" or "Willow was right to send Vamp!Willow back to her reality since she was staked immediately", as if the characters could have known that at the time they took those decisions. The fact of the matter is that Buffy had had months to kill Angel and many people had paid with their lives for her inability to do so. And yes, it's horrible and heartbreaking that she is put in such a tough situation but it's also perfectly natural of Xander to doubt that Buffy would go all out if she is still clinging to the hope of Angel being cured. Stalling for time would have been a very, very risky strategy considering Xander didn't know that Spike had switched sides and there was still Giles being held as a hostage.
                      And everything you say would be exactly the same if Xander had actually decided not to mention anything instead of lying aobut it and putting words in Willow's mouth in order to manipulate Buffy into killing Angel because he had lost his belief in her that she would be able to find the strength to do it. Everything would have been the same if he hadn't talked at all instead of lying. But he chose to lie. And it's not the first or the last time that we see Xander lying. And I'm sure it won't be the last either.

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                      • #12
                        Proves how much wrong he was for deciding to lie in the first place. The hating against him wouldn't have been the same if that scene had been played with him not saying anything, but just following Buffy to help her instead.
                        Says who? You are the first person I have ever seen say that and I have read many, many arguments about "the Lie". Pretty much everybody else who complains about this scene dislikes Xander not telling the truth, not Xander's specific lie. Or at least thinks not telling the truth is far worse than putting words in Willow's mouth. I am not saying that my personal observations cover the entire spectrum of opinions in the fandom but I don't think you can just assume people weren't going to hate Xander had he just said nothing.

                        Which I'd be happy to talk about in the specific thread if you open it. Here we don't talk about Buffy in the gift.
                        Not every thread needs to stay 100% on topic all the time. If you don't like to talk about The Gift here then don't, but don't tell us to do the same.

                        AThe shooting script says nothing about hope or change in attitude or whatever. And when opinions differ, that's the job of the shooting script.
                        Generally it's entirely possible, especially when the director also happens to be the writer of the episode, to change some things during the actual shooting, so to me the episode itself is far more telling than the shooting script. If you don't see what other see in the Xander-Buffy conversation, that's fine but this not being mentioned in the shooting script proves nothing. Not every character reaction is mentioned in those scripts anyway, IIRC.
                        Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                        • #13
                          Says who? You are the first person I have ever seen say that and I have read many, many arguments about "the Lie". Pretty much everybody else who complains about this scene dislikes Xander not telling the truth, not Xander's specific lie.
                          Christ, you say it yourself, "dislike him for not telling the truth" meaning for lying, not dislike him for hiding something.

                          Or at least thinks not telling the truth is far worse than putting words in Willow's mouth. I am not saying that my personal observations cover the entire spectrum of opinions in the fandom but I don't think you can just assume people weren't going to hate Xander had he just said nothing.
                          And I've read many arguments posting that Xander is a liar and a hypocrite giving Becoming II as the first example. Wonder why.

                          Not every thread needs to stay 100% on topic all the time. If you don't like to talk about The Gift here then don't, but don't tell us to do the same.
                          Talk about whatever you want, that's your right. But please don't quote me when doing that because you may do, but I certainly have no intention of talking about Buffy or the Gift.

                          Generally it's entirely possible, especially when the director also happens to be the writer of the episode, to change some things during the actual shooting, so to me the episode itself is far more telling than the shooting script.
                          When feelings or changes in attitude are involved, the shooting script always mentions them so the actor that reads it and tries to memorise it knows what the writer wants to say. And the shooting script said nothing about hope in Buffy's voice or change in her attitude or whatever. Joss felt no need to warn in advance his actors about the way to perform the scene. Wonder why again.

                          If you don't see what other see in the Xander-Buffy conversation, that's fine but this not being mentioned in the shooting script proves nothing. Not every character reaction is mentioned in those scripts anyway, IIRC.
                          Like KOC said, the shooting script is there to help us when opinions differ. And here the shooting script agrees with me. Want to see the scene differently? Be my guest. But let me also see it my way, which happens to agree with the shooting script. Wonder for the third time why.
                          Last edited by dina; 01-02-12, 09:55 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Christ, you say it yourself, "dislike him for not telling the truth" meaning for lying, not dislike him for hiding something.
                            What? Not telling the truth isn't necessarily lying, your own argument is that a lie of omission is preferable to an outright lie, is it not?

                            And I've read many arguments posting that Xander is a liar and a hypocrite giving Becoming II as the first example. Wonder why.
                            So do you believe that people are generally pissed at the specific lie Xander told rather than him not saying the truth? Because in my experience the answer is overwhelmingly the latter option. Stop dodging the question, please.

                            Talk about whatever you want, that's your right. But please don't quote me when doing that because you may do, but I certainly have no intention of talking about Buffy or the Gift.
                            You quoted my post that mentioned The Gift, remember?

                            Like KOC said, the shooting script is the to help us when opinions differ. And here the shooting script agrees with me. Want to see the scene differently? Be my guest. But let me also see it my way, which happens to agree with the shooting script.
                            Well, I took your "when opinions differ, that's the job of the shooting script" remark to mean that this solves the argument, not that you agree to disagree. If I have misunderstood you, I am sorry, it's not my intent to tell you how to interpret the scene. But shooting scripts are not the final authority on the matter - for instance in the Some Assembly Required script it says:

                            There there.

                            Xander, without looking at Cordelia and without feeling, pats her shoulder.
                            while in the episode itself Giles did that, not Xander. You aren't going to say it was Xander just because it says so in the script, are you?
                            Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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                            • #15
                              What? Not telling the truth isn't necessarily lying, your own argument is that a lie of omission is preferable to an outright lie, is it not?
                              You are kidding me here, right? If I don't tell you the truth about something, doesn't it mean that I lie to you? If I don't tell you the truth it doesn't mean that I hide something and it doesn't mean that I don't lie. When somebody doesn't say the truth that means he lies, that means that he says a lie or lies.

                              So do you believe that people are generally pissed at the specific lie Xander told rather than him not saying the truth? Because in my experience the answer is overwhelmingly the latter option. Stop dodging the question, please.
                              Yes i truly believe that not so many people would have hated Xander if he hadn't said anything at all. But instead he lied which boosted sheer the bitter hatred against him.

                              You quoted my post that mentioned The Gift, remember?
                              Which was a reply to points made in the "Mark Watches Buffy" thread as you wrote yourself. And those points were made by me.

                              while in the episode itself Giles did that, not Xander. You aren't going to say it was Xander just because it says so in the script, are you?
                              Yeah, also in Beneath you Spike's finally scene is different. Joss changed it. But both of those two episodes weren't written by Whedon, unlike Becoming II. So I don't believe that he made such fundamental changes at the end since both shooting script and transcript are almost the same.

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