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Why Did Angelus Want To End The World?

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  • #31
    My guess is that as the season was wrapping up the writers needed another apocalypse to end the season with. If "Becoming" was meant to be the last time we saw Angel(us) then the story would't be a big problem. However we learn more of Angel(us) later, and everything we learn makes it seem pretty clear that he has no interest in ending the world.

    Some people make a case that Angelus still has feelings for Buffy, and that he wants to end the world in an act to prove that he has no humanity left in him. The problem with this theory is that if Angelus still does have feelings for Buffy that means that he still has humanity, in which case the Judge should have been able to kill him.
    Last edited by Lostsoul666; 06-05-12, 06:40 AM.
    My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
      My guess is that as the season was wrapping up the writers needed another apocalypse to end the season with. If "Becoming" was meant to be the last time we saw Angel(us) then the story would't be a big problem. However we learn more of Angel(us) later, and everything we learn makes it seem pretty clear that he has no interest in ending the world.

      Some people make a case that Angelus still has feelings for Buffy, and that he wants to end the world in an act to prove that he has no humanity left in him. The problem with this theory is that if Angelus still does have feelings for Buffy that means that he still has humanity, in which case the Judge should have been able to kill him.
      As Willow said: "You're still all he thinks about". Of course he still had feelings for her and they were as strong as before, but they weren't love because he's incapable of feeling love when soulless. Angelus clearly has humanity whatever Judge says or not. Things like stalking your ex-girlfriend, being upset when another guy taunts you that were her "lapdog", or having endless pissing contests with another guy, are recognizably human. Sadism is also human.

      The Judge just seemed to have his own ideas of humanity, but there's no reason to consider him a great thinker. Frankly he came off a bit dumb. He seemed to be using "humanity" as another word for "goodness", and in that case, I'd agree - Angelus had no goodness or empathy in him. But The Judge also thought that affection and jealousy was "human", and neither of those are good by default, especially not jealousy. He also thought reading books makes one "human" (as opposed to demon), which makes no sense at all.
      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

      Comment


      • #33
        kana

        My quote: Dru wanted to use the Judge; Dru wanted to use Acathla.

        It's a possibility but Angelus never expresses a desire to please Drusilla.
        Are you implying that Angel didn’t care about what Dru wanted?

        Whatever his reason, he seem enthusiatic about it happening.
        This is true of Acathla. My point has always been that these are things that Dru wanted to do and Angel did them. And that were not for Dru wanting to do them, we don’t know if Angel would have done them. And of what we know of his history, and how he is in AtS s4, he’s never been apocalyptic.

        My quote: That vile kill seemed to be enough. Why would Angel consider that the world going to hell was going to ‘fix’ his love for Buffy?

        Like others have said it was the 'ultimate sin' so it's possible that a vile kill wasn't enough to 'cure' him of his feelings.
        First off, it’s not certain that Angel would consider that the “ultimate sin”. Secondly, there’s simply no evidence or proof that he was doing the Acathla thing in order to try to end his love for Buffy.

        character consistency, as far as I'm concerned, seems like a better way to go.
        If this is your argument then you should conclude that he was doing it for Drusilla as Drusilla was the one who was into the idea of using the Judge to kill everyone with humanity and that of what we know of Angel’s history, he’s never been apocalyptic.

        My quote: Or he didn’t want an apocalypse to happen. Killing the Beast was about Angel wanting direct contact with the Big Bad.

        But it was also an example of Angelus not wanting to be anyone's lacky.
        I don’t think it was ever implied that he could take whoever or whatever was the boss of the Beast or that he thought he could. He simply didn’t like the idea of ‘taking orders’ from someone’s lackey.

        He hates the idea of someone else being his 'Master'.
        He seemed to subordinate himself to Darla.

        He speculated that the Beast's Master was more powerful than the Beast and even then he still wasn't willing to follow orders or anyone elses plans.
        He was following the Beast’s Master’s orders and he continued to do so after he killed the Beast.

        So this is why him doing it for Dru or following Dru's wishes seems out of character added to the fact there is no proof.
        Um, he was following Dru’s wishes. I don’t reason it possible to argue against that unless you are trying to argue that she didn’t want to do the Judge and Acathla’s things. And she clearly did want to try to do those things.

        Well we know Angelus about sadism, so it's at least a guess based on character consistency,
        It’s not though. Angel was interested in the individual, not people as a whole. “A good kill, a clean kill, it takes pure artistry.” Spike was the one who fought against mobs. Drusilla was the one who was enjoying the general carnage of the Boxer Rebellion.



        TimeTravellingBunny

        As Willow said: "You're still all he thinks about". Of course he still had feelings for her and they were as strong as before, but they weren't love because he's incapable of feeling love when soulless.
        I consider that he loved Darla, Drusilla, and Spike. His feelings for Buffy at this point were simply evil feelings. He wanted to mentally torture her, perhaps physically torture her, and maybe kill her.

        Angelus clearly has humanity whatever Judge says or not.
        Not by the Judge’s definition.

        Things like stalking your ex-girlfriend, being upset when another guy taunts you that were her "lapdog", or having endless pissing contests with another guy, are recognizably human. Sadism is also human.
        The Judge was probably using things like kindness, compassion, love, etc. He could burn Spike and Dru because they were in love with each other. Dalton seemed to be a kindhearted, compassionate, and sensitive guy or whatever. The Judge probably would have been able to burn vampire Harmony and vampire Buffy (from “Nightmares” (1.10?)).

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
          kana

          My quote: Dru wanted to use the Judge; Dru wanted to use Acathla.

          It's a possibility but Angelus never expresses a desire to please Drusilla.
          Are you implying that Angel didn’t care about what Dru wanted?
          No I'm saying that there is no evidence that he was trying to please Dru or has ever tried to please Dru.

          This is true of Acathla. My point has always been that these are things that Dru wanted to do and Angel did them.
          Yet it's a statement that has implications. You once admitted that Angelus wanted to open Acathla and Dru didn't force or manipulate him to do it. In the absence of Angelus asking what Dru wanted, it's far too speculative to think he's trying to please her.

          And that were not for Dru wanting to do them, we don’t know if Angel would have done them.
          We don't know if he wouldn't have either. If Dru didn't do anything to compel Angelus to open Acathla for example, and he merely found out about it, then it's totally reasonable to assume that he was interested in the information itself, rather than the decision being based on Dru's desire to want it to happen.

          And of what we know of his history, and how he is in AtS s4, he’s never been apocalyptic.
          He's allowed to change his mind and if he was dead against it, why was he so happy to do it in Season 2 without any indication he's trying to please anyone.

          As for Season 4 he said he was looking forward to the Apocalypse.

          First off, it’s not certain that Angel would consider that the “ultimate sin”. Secondly, there’s simply no evidence or proof that he was doing the Acathla thing in order to try to end his love for Buffy.
          Here I was speculating but I was trying to work out what he meant about freeing Acathla leading to his own 'freedom'. Freedom from what? The only thing that appeared to irk him was the memory of his feelings for Buffy.

          If this is your argument then you should conclude that he was doing it for Drusilla as Drusilla was the one who was into the idea of using the Judge to kill everyone with humanity and that of what we know of Angel’s history, he’s never been apocalyptic.
          I shouldn't because Angelus has never had a history of trying to please Dru.

          I don’t think it was ever implied that he could take whoever or whatever was the boss of the Beast or that he thought he could.
          Well, yeah ultimately he didn't but he expressed a desire not to be left in the dark. He wanted to know what was going on, he didn't want to be manipulated ("have his strings yanked")

          He simply didn’t like the idea of ‘taking orders’ from someone’s lackey.
          He clearly didn't want to take orders from anybody. When the Beast's Master said he had plans for Angelus, he stated that he makes his own plans and was clearly annoyed at having the call someone Master. He only did it because he was literally forced to, showing that if he wasn't he wouldn't normally be inclined to do what someone else wanted unless he wanted to do it anyway.

          He seemed to subordinate himself to Darla.
          In your opinion, but I don't remember Angelus indulging Darla anymore than she indulged him. Angelus wanted to go to France, they went to France. Angelus wanted to sire Dru against Darla's wishes, and he got to do so. Clearly he didn't always get his own way, but I don't think Darla 'outranked' Angelus or even vice versa. They both seemed very self-possessed.

          He was following the Beast’s Master’s orders and he continued to do so after he killed the Beast.
          Yes, but not willingly, he was literally forced to do so, with a specific threat.

          Um, he was following Dru’s wishes.
          That argument is incidental. For the Judge, she merely invited him and he accepted. She was asking him what he wanted and he ultimately accepted the invitation, therefore she was giving him an option as to whether or not he wanted to be a part of it.

          As for Acathla, he made a decision after he found out the Acathla was a viable option, he never asked her what she wanted to do or if she thought it was a good idea.

          I don’t reason it possible to argue against that unless you are trying to argue that she didn’t want to do the Judge and Acathla’s things. And she clearly did want to try to do those things.
          Or that they both wanted these things to happen. We never see Angelus reluctant to do any of these things and seemed happy for them to happen. This is what we see on screen and this is what I go by. It's why he wanted to do that we don't know about.

          It’s not though. Angel was interested in the individual, not people as a whole. “A good kill, a clean kill, it takes pure artistry.” Spike was the one who fought against mobs. Drusilla was the one who was enjoying the general carnage of the Boxer Rebellion.
          Yes, but Dru never tried to destroy the world, as far as we know after season 2. I'm not going to simply assume he was trying to please Dru in absence of another theory. For whatever reason, he liked the idea of Apocalypse from Season 2 onwards and stated so in Season 4 of Ats. What changed his mind? I don't know, but I'm not going to assume it's Dru.
          Last edited by kana; 06-06-12, 03:54 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            kana

            To begin, there’s no solid evidence that Angel did either the Judge thing or the Acathla thing because those were simply things he wanted to do and not things he did simply because Dru wanted to do them. And there’s also no evidence that if Angel didn’t want to do either the Judge thing or the Acathla thing that he thought that he could stop them from being done.

            I'm saying that there is no evidence that he was trying to please Dru or has ever tried to please Dru.
            For the bolded part, how do you explain the giving of the heart in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16)? For the former, there’s no evidence that he wasn’t trying to please Dru by doing the Acathla thing. And same for the Judge thing.

            My quote: This is true of Acathla. My point has always been that these are things that Dru wanted to do and Angel did them.

            Yet it's a statement that has implications.
            Sure, but that’s what happened. The only arguable thing is why Angel did them.

            You once admitted that Angelus wanted to open Acathla and Dru didn't force or manipulate him to do it.
            I didn’t “admit” anything. My point has always been that Dru didn’t have to force Angel or manipulate Angel. I also said that there’s no solid evidence that Angel thought he could ‘overrule’ Dru.

            In the absence of Angelus asking what Dru wanted, it's far too speculative to think he's trying to please her.
            He knew that she wanted to use the Judge and he knew that she wanted to open Acathla. That’s almost like saying that Spike didn’t know whether or not Buffy wanted the Judge destroyed and whether or not she didn’t want the world literally going to hell.


            My quote: And that were not for Dru wanting to do them, we don’t know if Angel would have done them.

            I consider this fact.

            If Dru didn't do anything to compel Angelus to open Acathla for example, and he merely found out about it, then it's totally reasonable to assume that he was interested in the information itself, rather than the decision being based on Dru's desire to want it to happen.
            Its’ not “totally reasonable” and perhaps it’s not even “reasonable” to assume that. Angel before BtVS S2 and after BtVS S2
            Spoiler:
            (until BtVS S8)
            has never been apocalyptic.
            Spoiler:
            And even the thing in BtVS S8 was about his being able to be with Buffy.


            My quote: And of what we know of his history, and how he is in AtS s4, he’s never been apocalyptic.

            He's allowed to change his mind and if he was dead against it, why was he so happy to do it in Season 2 without any indication he's trying to please anyone.
            I gave the quote from “Becoming Part I” (2.21) when he promises both Spike and Dru that they will get their Armageddon. And he tries to mollify Dru when she gets concerned about their being able to open Acathla. And he wasn’t “dead against it” and it’s not a given that he did change his mind.

            As for Season 4 he said he was looking forward to the Apocalypse.
            Quote? He killed the Beast and didn’t want to be Evil Cordelia’s b)tch either.

            [quote] My quote: First off, it’s not certain that Angel would consider that the “ultimate sin”. Secondly, there’s simply no evidence or proof that he was doing the Acathla thing in order to try to end his love for Buffy.

            I was trying to work out what he meant about freeing Acathla leading to his own 'freedom'. Freedom from what? The only thing that appeared to irk him was the memory of his feelings for Buffy.
            He said something like: “and you [Acathla] will be free and so will we all.” So, again, there’s little to no indication that it was about Angel wanting to try to end his love for Buffy.

            My quote: If this is your argument then you should conclude that he was doing it for Drusilla as Drusilla was the one who was into the idea of using the Judge to kill everyone with humanity and that of what we know of Angel’s history, he’s never been apocalyptic.

            I shouldn't because Angelus has never had a history of trying to please Dru.
            He’s never had a history of being apocalyptic. We don’t know enough about Angel/Dru to determine if he’s had a history of trying to please Dru.

            My quote: He seemed to subordinate himself to Darla.

            In your opinion, but I don't remember Angelus indulging Darla anymore than she indulged him. Angelus wanted to go to France, they went to France. Angelus wanted to sire Dru against Darla's wishes, and he got to do so. Clearly he didn't always get his own way, but I don't think Darla 'outranked' Angelus or even vice versa. They both seemed very self-possessed.
            Well, Darla did outrank Angel if we are considering the Order of Aurielus. And it seems it’s pretty much only Spike who regarded Angel as the Fang Four’s leader. It seems the rest considered that Darla was.

            My quote: Um, he was following Dru’s wishes.

            That argument is incidental. For the Judge, she merely invited him and he accepted. She was asking him what he wanted and he ultimately accepted the invitation, therefore she was giving him an option as to whether or not he wanted to be a part of it.
            She asked him if he wanted to join in the fun. Angel at this point is clearly subordinate to both Spike and Dru. And he asks them to wait a day so that he can focus on getting back at Buffy. And nothing suggests that either couldn’t have refused this request.

            As for Acathla, he made a decision after he found out the Acathla was a viable option, he never asked her what she wanted to do or if she thought it was a good idea.
            Dru gleefully discusses Acathla and it is certain that she wants to use Acathla. Angel agrees to help open Acathla. Your quote is worded in a way that makes it seem as if Angel found out about Acathla being in town from someone else, made the decision by himself to open Acathla only after finding out that it could be done and that throughout this process “he never asked [Dru] what she wanted to do or if she thought it was a good idea”. And that’s simply not the sequence of events that happened.

            My quote: I don’t reason it possible to argue against that unless you are trying to argue that she didn’t want to do the Judge and Acathla’s things. And she clearly did want to try to do those things.

            Or that they both wanted these things to happen. We never see Angelus reluctant to do any of these things and seemed happy for them to happen. This is what we see on screen and this is what I go by. It's why he wanted to do that we don't know about.
            What we see on screen is Dru wanting to do these things and Angel either agreeing or going along.

            My quote: It’s not though. Angel was interested in the individual, not people as a whole. “A good kill, a clean kill, it takes pure artistry.” Spike was the one who fought against mobs. Drusilla was the one who was enjoying the general carnage of the Boxer Rebellion.

            Yes, but Dru never tried to destroy the world, as far as we know after season 2.
            Dru’s also in love with Spike and Spike didn’t want the world destroyed.

            I'm not going to simply assume he was trying to please Dru in absence of another theory.
            That he was is a reasonable consideration.

            For whatever reason, he liked the idea of Apocalypse from Season 2 onwards and stated so in Season 4 of Ats.
            I need a quote from AtS s4 because Angel was trying to stop the Beast and simply had no power to stop the Beast Master.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by MikeB View Post
              kana

              To begin, there’s no solid evidence that Angel did either the Judge thing or the Acathla thing because those were simply things he wanted to do and not things he did simply because Dru wanted to do them.
              As I keep saying, you're using a negative to try to prove a positive. I accepted that it's unclear why Angel attempts to open Acathla. I'm not assuming he didn't want to do it for Dru, but I'm also not assuming he is doing it for Dru. If you're simply saying it's a possibility, then that's fine, but it's also possible he's not. I don't see anymore likelyhood that he's doing it from Dru than him not necessarily doing for Dru. All we really know is that Angelus attempted to open Acathla and he seemed ok with the Judge plan going ahead.


              And there’s also no evidence that if Angel didn’t want to do either the Judge thing or the Acathla thing that he thought that he could stop them from being done.
              But now you're arguing hypotheticals. I'm arguing about what actually happened and about his actual motivations, not what would happen if Angelus didn't want to do these things. Even if we speculate what would happen if he didn't want to take his front seat at the Judge 'destructo-show' or he ignored what Dru said about Acathla, it doesn't prove anything about his actual motivations for doing these things.

              For the bolded part, how do you explain the giving of the heart in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16)?
              Possibly undermining Spike. Angelus couldn't take his eyes off Spike when he was flirting with Dru, but that's another topic.

              For the former, there’s no evidence that he wasn’t trying to please Dru by doing the Acathla thing. And same for the Judge thing.
              For probably the 100th time, if you're trying to argue something you have to provide 'positive indications' that he was doing it for Dru.

              Sure, but that’s what happened.
              Not necessarily in the way you're implying it happened. If you construct the sentence in this way: "Dru wanted to do these things and Angelus did them" then it implies he did it because she wanted those things to happen. This is not a factual statement, it's even arguable if it's even implied that Dru had anything to do with Angelus' decision to open Acathla. As for the Judge, it's debatable that he 'did it' at all. Unless you think walking along side the Judge and making comments was what Dru 'got him to do'.

              The only arguable thing is why Angel did them.
              But this also includes whether or not he did it for Dru. If there is no implication, then just it's one of many theories.


              I didn’t “admit” anything. My point has always been that Dru didn’t have to force Angel or manipulate Angel.
              This is my point though. If she didn't do anything to get Angelus to do it, then it means that Angelus chose to do it of his own free will.

              I also said that there’s no solid evidence that Angel thought he could ‘overrule’ Dru.
              Again this arguing hypothetical situations. If Angelus simply chose not to go with Dru to see the Judge destroy the world, or if he simply ignored what Dru said about Acathla, we have no idea what would happen. That in itself is speculation.

              He knew that she wanted to use the Judge and he knew that she wanted to open Acathla. That’s almost like saying that Spike didn’t know whether or not Buffy wanted the Judge destroyed and whether or not she didn’t want the world literally going to hell.
              Knowing that she wanted to do something is not the same as saying he must have done because she wanted him to do it.

              My quote: And that were not for Dru wanting to do them, we don’t know if Angel would have done them.

              I consider this fact.
              Not really because it makes the assumption that Angelus wanting to do it is based upon Dru's wishes. The only thing we know is, at least as far as Acathla is concerned, is once he found out about it, he did it. That is assuming the very least if anything at all. This is factually what happened.

              Its’ not “totally reasonable” and perhaps it’s not even “reasonable” to assume that.
              Unless he asked her for her opinion is actually the only thing we can assume.

              Angel before BtVS S2 and after BtVS S2
              Spoiler:
              (until BtVS S8)
              has never been apocalyptic.
              Spoiler:
              And even the thing in BtVS S8 was about his being able to be with Buffy.
              Dru has never shown such tendencies aside from Season 2 either so what's your point?

              I gave the quote from “Becoming Part I” (2.21) when he promises both Spike and Dru that they will get their Armageddon. And he tries to mollify Dru when she gets concerned about their being able to open Acathla.
              Yes, I demonstrated how that doesn't necessarily mean he's trying to please them. He doesn't try and 'mollify' Dru, she asked him what they are going to do and Angelus told her.

              And he wasn’t “dead against it” and it’s not a given that he did change his mind.
              Well he did, because it's, like canon. Unless you're arguing that Angelus was forced to destroy the world.

              Quote? He killed the Beast and didn’t want to be Evil Cordelia’s b)tch either
              .

              If you insist :

              CORDELIA
              Oh, but it is. Just in time for the primo apocalypse that's coming. Too bad. I know how you love those.

              ANGELUS
              Been looking forward to it all day. Still am.
              To me, it's such a throw away comment that it's pointless to assume he's lying. If Angelus believed that the Beast Master was behind the Apocalypse then the Beast wouldn't necessarily be needed. There is no evidence that Angelus believed the Beast was necessary nor that it would halt the Apocalypse if he was killed. As for not wanting to be the Beast Master's lackey? That's my point! Although this doesn't prove he was against the apocalypse itself.

              [QUOTE]
              My quote: First off, it’s not certain that Angel would consider that the “ultimate sin”. Secondly, there’s simply no evidence or proof that he was doing the Acathla thing in order to try to end his love for Buffy.
              He said something like: “and you [Acathla] will be free and so will we all.” So, again, there’s little to no indication that it was about Angel wanting to try to end his love for Buffy.

              You're right, this was one of many theories. I was trying to link into any clues in what Angelus might have said, but as I've always maintained, it's not made explicit why Angelus did it. I just don't believe he was doing it for anyone else.



              He’s never had a history of being apocalyptic. We don’t know enough about Angel/Dru to determine if he’s had a history of trying to please Dru.
              See above, we have no evidence that Dru has tried before or after Season 2, either.

              Well, Darla did outrank Angel if we are considering the Order of Aurielus.
              That means very little seen as Angelus didn't associate with the Order of Aurielus, he's only linked to them by bloodline. If we are to use that logic, Angelus outranks Dru.

              And it seems it’s pretty much only Spike who regarded Angel as the Fang Four’s leader. It seems the rest considered that Darla was.
              No one was officially in charge, well at least this wasn't stated, but it never seemed as though Angelus was 'following' Darla. He seemed to do whatever he wanted.

              She asked him if he wanted to join in the fun.
              No disagreement there.

              Angel at this point is clearly subordinate to both Spike and Dru. And he asks them to wait a day so that he can focus on getting back at Buffy.
              That's because The Judge was their plan. Of course at this point Dru and Spike were in charge of the minions at this point, so it makes sense that Angelus didn't make any demands, but any respect, asking them to wait doesn't mean he was doing what Dru wanted to do. I mean he was addressing Spike and Dru anyway, under that logic, he'd do what Spike wanted, and their character history is certainly not consistent with that.


              And nothing suggests that either couldn’t have refused this request.
              I'm not saying they couldn't have, but it doesn't mean that Angelus did what Dru wanted.

              Dru gleefully discusses Acathla and it is certain that she wants to use Acathla. Angel agrees to help open Acathla.
              Just because she was grinning when mentioning about the box with the 'surprise' inside it doesn't mean that the grin is reason for Angelus deciding to open Acathla. For all Angelus knew, her grin was merely example of her standard insanity.

              Also Angelus never 'agreed' to anything, because Dru never asked to do anything. Quote?

              Your quote is worded in a way that makes it seem as if Angel found out about Acathla being in town from someone else,
              No it's not. I said he found out from Dru. It's just not explicit or even implicit that Dru giving him the information has anything to do with his motivation.

              made the decision by himself to open Acathla only after finding out that it could be done
              That's what happened, apart from he didn't find out from someone else.

              and that throughout this process “he never asked [Dru] what she wanted to do or if she thought it was a good idea”.
              Are you telling me, he did? Again, quote?

              And that’s simply not the sequence of events that happened.
              What I said happened, is what happened. There was nothing perculiar about how I worded it.

              What we see on screen is Dru wanting to do these things and Angel either agreeing or going along.
              Angelus was impetus behind Acathla. Dru gave him the information after he asked her. That is what is happened.

              Dru’s also in love with Spike and Spike didn’t want the world destroyed.
              This is speculation as well. There is no reason to believe that's why she didn't want to destroy the world after the events of Season 2. Also, did she even know that Spike had reservations? I don't remember him saying anything to her. He argued to her that he did what he did for her (from Lover's Walk). Even if she did know, there isn't any evidence that she's refraining from doing it for that reason.

              That he was is a reasonable consideration.
              I tell you what: Even if we agree to disagree, I'll certainly list it under one of the many possible theories. .

              I need a quote from AtS s4 because Angel was trying to stop the Beast and simply had no power to stop the Beast Master.
              I gave the quote earlier. . Also Angelus wasn't trying to stop the apocalypse, he killed the Beast to get the Beast Master's attention and to give him the message that he doesn't want to be anyone's lacky. He never mentioned anything about being against the world ending.
              Last edited by kana; 05-07-12, 08:43 AM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by kana View Post
                I apologize if this has been asked before...

                In any event, why do you think Angelus tried to destroy the world in Season 2?
                Wanted to go into this question cold, so I only skimmed the rest, and read no comments. My thoughts are as follows:

                Angelus, upon his reemergence, had been crushed by a soul, unnatural and an abomination to vampires, for over a hundred years. During that time, Angel did things that Angelus totally abhorbed--acts of heroism and self loathing. And most recently...loving the Slayer, a vampire's natural enemy, and the murder of his beloved, Darla.

                I think the weight of the soul, the death of Darla, and the feelings of love for Buffy drove Angelus insane, making him want to end the world and everyone and anything in it. When he re-emerges in s4, he's more mellow, the Darla stuff had been sussed out, more or less, and he had no need for the chaos, unless it was chaos of his own design. This is why the Beast, stealing the sun and giving all night dwelling demons free reign, had to go.
                "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

                -Abraham Lincoln

                Comment


                • #38
                  Again, I’m going to try to get at the most critical things.



                  1) Spike and Drusilla had already gotten the Judge together before Angel arrived. Dru gleefully asks Angel, “We’re going to destroy the world? Want to come?” Angel goes along with the Judge plan.

                  Dru only asks if Angel wants to come. She tells him that they are going to destroy the world. And nothing in BtVS S2 suggests that Angel could have stopped this plan.

                  2) Spike was reading the paper on the Acathla artifact thing and Drusilla was excited about using Acathla. And she’s excited throughout the opening Acathla process. She expresses bitter disappointment when Angel fails to open Acathla.

                  Anyway, what is a fact is that Angel did the Judge and Acathla things already knowing that Dru wanted to do them. And Dru was involved in both things.

                  What is not a given is that Angel wanted to do these things and it had nothing to do with Dru’s wants.

                  It’s not a given that if Dru didn’t want to do them that Angel would have done them.


                  And, really, the only reason why the Judge was there is because Spike thought it’d be a nice ‘birthday?’ present for Dru. And it’s possible that Angel wouldn’t even know about Acathla if Dru hadn’t told him that it was in Sunnydale.


                  And nothing suggests that in BtVS S2 Spike or Dru ever considered Angel as their ‘leader’ or ‘boss’ and nothing suggests that if Dru didn’t want to open Acathla that Angel could have done it anyway.


                  I consider the biggest problem is that Angel tends to be viewed by viewers as more powerful than he actually is and Dru tends to be viewed as less powerful than she actually is. Angel in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16) seemed afraid of Dru. And when Angel did something she didn’t like – try to kill Xander – she very casually grabs him and tosses him into a tree, threatens his life if he touches Xander again, and then pretty much ignores Angel and offers to sire Xander right there with Angel watching.

                  Uncursed Angel’s focus in BtVS S2 was hurting Buffy. It was Dru’s focus to ‘have fun’ by doing things like killing everyone with humanity and sending the entire world to hell. Even in “Becoming Part I” (2.21), Angel makes sure to take the opportunity to hurt Buffy emotionally.

                  What I can buy into is that part of the reason Angel would want to send the world to hell because it’d be the most damaging thing for Buffy.

                  With Drusilla, he turned a chaste pure sweet nun with the Sight into an evil murderous demon.

                  With Buffy, he’d be sending the world – that Buffy is supposed to protect – literally to hell.

                  The only problem with this theory is that unless Angel fully believed that Buffy would destroy the Judge, he pretty much only emotionally hurt her by being a jerk to her about their night together before the next night Dru and he went to go use the Judge.




                  kana

                  It seems you still won’t acknowledge that Angel knew that Dru wanted to use Acathla. I don’t see how it’s reasonable to believe that Dru would be happily talking about “the tomb with a surprise inside” if she didn’t want to use Acathla. Given this; for me, it’s pointless to continue to discuss with you the Dru ingredient in Angel’s possible motivations and/or reasons for why he did the Acathla thing.

                  And now in this post you imply that perhaps the only reason for why Angel agreed to do the Judge thing is because Spike and Dru were in charge of the minions. This implies that he could overrule Spike and Dru if they didn’t have minions. But during the Acathla thing, it seems Angel had more control over the minions than Spike had and yet you don’t say that Angel could have stopped the Acathla thing if he didn’t want that to happen.


                  I'm arguing about what actually happened
                  What actually happened is that Spike and Dru wanted to do the Judge thing and Angel did it and what happened is that Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing and Angel did it.

                  My quote: For the bolded part, how do you explain the giving of the heart in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.16)?

                  Possibly undermining Spike. Angelus couldn't take his eyes off Spike when he was flirting with Dru, but that's another topic.
                  This implies that you consider that Spike was still the boss in 2.16.

                  My quote: For the former, there’s no evidence that he wasn’t trying to please Dru by doing the Acathla thing. And same for the Judge thing.

                  For probably the 100th time, if you're trying to argue something you have to provide 'positive indications' that he was doing it for Dru.
                  Well, it’s merely my consideration. But like I say above, it’s fact that he did these things knowing that Dru wanted to do them.

                  Any other explanation for why Angel went along with the Judge thing and the Acathla thing is speculation. And that’s my entire point. We don’t know why Angel did those things. But we do know that Dru wanted to do them and we know that Angel knew that she did before he ‘signed on’ to help do them.

                  it never seemed as though Angelus was 'following' Darla. He seemed to do whatever he wanted.
                  Really? That’s not what the AtS flashbacks show. They show that Angel was pretty much Darla’s puppy.

                  That's because The Judge was their plan.
                  The Judge was something that they wanted to do. Acathla is something that Dru wanted to do and it seems Angel assumed that Spike also wanted to do it.

                  Of course at this point Dru and Spike were in charge of the minions at this point, so it makes sense that Angelus didn't make any demands, but any respect, asking them to wait doesn't mean he was doing what Dru wanted to do. I mean he was addressing Spike and Dru anyway, under that logic, he'd do what Spike wanted, and their character history is certainly not consistent with that.
                  Huh? First off, Spike was left in the factory while Drusilla and Angel took the Judge out. Secondly, you seem to imply that it’s only because Spike and Dru had minions that Angel had to agree to the Judge thing. The minions weren’t even around when Angel came in.

                  ______

                  Anyway, I consider even the thread title flawed because it takes as a given that Angelus wanted to end the world.

                  I’ve made my points about his knowing that Dru wanted to do the Judge and Acathla things. You don’t argue that Angel could have overruled Dru (the same thing goes for the Beast Master: it’s never suggested that Angel thought he could ‘overrule’ the Beast Master or stop her. He ends up being the Beast Master’s lackey) or that he could have done the Judge and/or Acathla things if Dru didn’t want to do them.



                  Beverly

                  I think the weight of the soul, the death of Darla, and the feelings of love for Buffy drove Angelus insane, making him want to end the world and everyone and anything in it.
                  Angel in BtVS S2 never mentioned Darla. And Angel wasn’t the one actively looking for ways to end the world. Angel had been focused on Buffy.

                  When he re-emerges in s4,
                  He’s focused on trying to hurt his Fang Gang.

                  he had no need for the chaos, unless it was chaos of his own design.
                  Angel was never into chaos. He liked to hurt the individual. If anything, chaos was Spike’s thing.

                  This is why the Beast, stealing the sun and giving all night dwelling demons free reign, had to go.
                  Angel ended up working for the BeastMaster.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    MikeB


                    My problem with the direction of this debate is that somehow it's descended into a Drusilla vs Angelus thread. This is not a discussion about who's the coolest, most powerful vampire in the whole Verse. I wanted to focus the arguments specifically on Angelus' motivations and how those motivations are implied on the show.

                    I'm not interested in:

                    i)Whether Angelus could 'overrule' Dru or even take her in a fight. This is irrelevent, because there was never any conflict or indication that Angelus was doing anything under duress.

                    ii)Any hypothetical situations involving what would happen if Angelus chose not the destroy the world. Totally pointless! If you want to create the thread on it, then do so, but this thread is about what actually happened and why it happened, not what would happen if....(insert pointless hypothetical here)



                    kana

                    It seems you still won’t acknowledge that Angel knew that Dru wanted to use Acathla.
                    You once again misrepresenting my argument. I'm not arguing if Angelus acknowledged that Dru wanted bring forth Acathla, I'm struggling to see how that automatically would mean it would equate to his motivation. Angelus gave no indication that he was trying to please Dru and that's my point.

                    I don’t see how it’s reasonable to believe that Dru would be happily talking about “the tomb with a surprise inside” if she didn’t want to use Acathla.
                    Again, with whom are you debating? Did I say that Drusilla didn't want to use Acathla?

                    I'm going to be as clear as possible so there is little misunderstanding:

                    Just because Dru wanted to open Acathla, it doesn't mean that it is the reason that Angelus wanted to do it. Which has nothing to do with what would happen if he chose to ignore the information that Dru had.

                    It seems that it is you who ignore how excited Angelus is about the whole thing happening and how disappointed he was when it didn't work.

                    Given this; for me, it’s pointless to continue to discuss with you the Dru ingredient in Angel’s possible motivations and/or reasons for why he did the Acathla thing.
                    It's pointless because it's speculation. My arguments take into account both Dru and Angelus wanting to do it. Yet this seems to be something you can't understand because you seem to require Dru and Angelus having a drawn out discussion about opening Acathla.

                    And now in this post you imply that perhaps the only reason for why Angel agreed to do the Judge thing is because Spike and Dru were in charge of the minions.
                    I never said that, but I admit I wasn't clear. My main point is that his request for them to wait wasn't necessarily an indication that he wanted to please Dru. If anything he was asking them to do him a favour that could be of mutual benefit.

                    This implies that he could overrule Spike and Dru if they didn’t have minions.
                    My actual point is that we don't know what would happen if Angelus and Dru had seriously conflicting interests.

                    The problem with hypotheticals is that there could be a million of them, but if we simplify. Angelus could have either not to be a part of the Judge's destruction or he could have tried to stop it. Now the results of what would happen is pointless to discuss because we're not discussing it. We are looking at motivations not who is the strongest vampire.

                    I've never implied that Angelus is more powerful than Dru. I fail to see how it's relevent in this thread unless Drusilla is actually using her said power to make Angelus do anything. If you can't give a specific indication without simply stating that Dru mentioned it (Acathla) or merely invited Angelus for a fun day out (The Judge) then it's pointless to discuss. I'm not arguing Dru's motivations or power. We're supposed to be discussing Angelus' motivations.

                    But during the Acathla thing, it seems Angel had more control over the minions than Spike had and yet you don’t say that Angel could have stopped the Acathla thing if he didn’t want that to happen.
                    Stopping Acathla? Angelus was the one bringing him forth. We are not discussing what would happen if he chose not to do it.

                    What actually happened is that Spike and Dru wanted to do the Judge thing and Angel did it
                    Not what happened is Spike and Dru did 'the Judge thing' and Drusilla invited Angelus to watch the show, to which he graciously accepted.

                    and what happened is that Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing and Angel did it.
                    I've discussed this use of language before Mike, here:

                    Originally posted by kana
                    Not necessarily in the way you're implying it happened. If you construct the sentence in this way: "Dru wanted to do these things and Angelus did them" then it implies he did it because she wanted those things to happen. This is not a factual statement, it's even arguable if it's even implied that Dru had anything to do with Angelus' decision to open Acathla. As for the Judge, it's debatable that he 'did it' at all. Unless you think walking along side the Judge and making comments was what Dru 'got him to do'.
                    And once again, you've ignored it. I'm not sure if you are doing this by choice to try and avoid the point I'm making or if you simply don't understand th point I'm making.

                    Your use of language is implicit that Dru desire was influencing Angelus decision, but it doesn't prove that. Then we proceed to go round in circles because when I address this, you argue that I'm implying either that Dru didn't want to Acathla to be opened or that Angelus was simply unaware that Dru wanted to open Acathla. WRONG! One does not imply the other and I've also said on many occasions that I acknowledge that Dru wanted it to happen, but that doesn't mean Angelus only wanted to do it because Dru wanted to do it. I don't understand why this concept is so hard for you to understand.

                    This implies that you consider that Spike was still the boss in 2.16.
                    No it doesn't. I didn't say undermine his authority, I simply said undermining him. To me this was indicative of Angelus highlighting Spike's lack of power.

                    Well, it’s merely my consideration. But like I say above, it’s fact that he did these things knowing that Dru wanted to do them.
                    I'm glad you said that. It's a theory and I respect all opinions, i just don't think there is any indication that it's true. Angelus mentions or implies nothing about pleasing Dru. There is simply no dialogue or scenes that demonstrate this, but if it's 'merely your consideration' then that's fine. I don't necessarily agree, but I'll accept it's at least a possibility, but no more likely then any other theory.

                    Any other explanation for why Angel went along with the Judge thing and the Acathla thing is speculation. And that’s my entire point. We don’t know why Angel did those things.
                    No we don't, but saying that he's doing it for Dru is also speculation when there is nothing to indicate it.

                    But we do know that Dru wanted to do them and we know that Angel knew that she did before he ‘signed on’ to help do them.
                    As for Acathla he didn't sign on to do anything. He simply chose to do it once he found out that Acathla was in town. There is no link in the dialogue that links Dru wanting to do it and Angelus doing it. Angelus never asked Dru what she wanted, only what she saw. He asked for information and made a decision based upon that information. Anything else is speculation and requires quotes to prove it.

                    Really? That’s not what the AtS flashbacks show. They show that Angel was pretty much Darla’s puppy.
                    How? I gave examples of how Angelus got to do what he wanted, but you've given none that demonstrate he was her 'puppy'. I'm not saying that Darla would do anything to please Angelus, but it seems both of them had their own will and motivations.

                    The Judge was something that they wanted to do. Acathla is something that Dru wanted to do and it seems Angel assumed that Spike also wanted to do it.
                    But as I keep saying knowing that someone wants to do something is not an indication that it is the reason they are either supporting it, letting it happen or involving themselves with it.

                    Huh? First off, Spike was left in the factory while Drusilla and Angel took the Judge out. Secondly, you seem to imply that it’s only because Spike and Dru had minions that Angel had to agree to the Judge thing. The minions weren’t even around when Angel came in.
                    They may have not currently been around but it doesn't mean there weren't available if needed. Spike and Dru were the one's who actually put the Judge together, all Angelus did was turn up and watched the show. Drusilla never said, "We're going to destroy the world, want to help", she merely 'invited him' to her party after Spike and herself did the hard work of planning it.

                    Anyway, I consider even the thread title flawed because it takes as a given that Angelus wanted to end the world.
                    I don't think it's flawed at all. Unless you're aguing that Angelus was forced to open Acathla. If you're not, then it's indicative that Angelus wanted to end the world. What is not clear is why.

                    I’ve made my points about his knowing that Dru wanted to do the Judge and Acathla things.
                    And I've more than addressed them. Sometimes, you've skated over or flat out ignored my argument though.

                    You don’t argue that Angel could have overruled Dru
                    That's irrelevent and I've explained why. We not talking about Dru or Angelus' relative power, we're talking about Angelus' motivations. These are seperate issues unless you're arguing that Dru somehow made Angelus do it. I believed you once stated this isn't the case, so with that in mind it's pointless to argue what would happen if Angelus chose not to do it, because we're arguing why he chose to do it.

                    (the same thing goes for the Beast Master: it’s never suggested that Angel thought he could ‘overrule’ the Beast Master or stop her. He ends up being the Beast Master’s lackey)
                    I agree with that and that's actually my point. We have specific indications of how Jasmine got Angelus to dance to her tune, but we don't have this same indication with Dru.

                    or that he could have done the Judge and/or Acathla things if Dru didn’t want to do them.
                    This is meaningless because we don't know that he couldn't have. This is why I want to focus on what actually happened.

                    To be honest, we're going round and round in circles here. If you want to believe that Angelus did it because Dru wanted him to do it then fine. I've merely highlighted the flaw with your assumptions. A much as anything it's a possibility, but there is little indication.
                    Last edited by kana; 19-08-12, 01:58 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Madhermit
                      Sidenote: Many people would not like to think this - but Angel probably considered staking himself many times over the years. This seems a reasonable assumption because it is synonymous with Angelus' desire to 'end the world'. This abated somewhat after meeting Buffy but the existential issue was still a looming problem. He seems to come to grips with it later in ATS.
                      Regarding Angel and suicide, I wonder if he may still have remnants of his Catholic upbringing, with the fear of Hell and belief that suicide leads you to Hell. Dear Boy made it seem like he still has some belief in God, though he doesn't talk about it most of the time.
                      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zarus View Post
                        Vampires are a symbol for the decline of aristocracy.
                        Wow. What a fertile area for further discussion! It deserves it's own thread, really. I never really looked at the undead in such a way before. Can you expand on that thought?
                        "Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do."

                        (BtVS, ep 3x10, "Amends", 40:56)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          All caught up

                          _______

                          I’m going to try to get at basic and essential points if possible. Arguing minutiae and hypotheticals is time-consuming and oftentimes unnecessary. I do read everything posted.


                          Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing and mentioned the Acathla thing to Angel. Angel already knew that Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing and agrees to do the Acathla thing.

                          Angel doing the Acathla thing because Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing is a reasonable argument for why he did it.

                          Any other explanation is baseless speculation other than the theory of “Angel would want to send the world to hell because it’d be the most damaging thing for Buffy.

                          With Drusilla, he turned a chaste pure sweet nun with the Sight into an evil murderous demon.

                          With Buffy, he’d be sending the world – that Buffy is supposed to protect – literally to hell.”

                          But, again, “The only problem with this theory is that unless Angel fully believed that Buffy would destroy the Judge, he pretty much only emotionally hurt her by being a jerk to her about their night together before the next night Dru and he went to go use the Judge.”




                          kana

                          Angelus gave no indication that he was trying to please Dru
                          This isn’t true; if it were, he wouldn’t much care what Drusilla and Spike thought of his failure in “Becoming Part I” (2.21) to reawaken Acathla.

                          My quote: Given this; for me, it’s pointless to continue to discuss with you the Dru ingredient in Angel’s possible motivations and/or reasons for why he did the Acathla thing.

                          It's pointless because it's speculation.
                          You don’t seem to understand what the word “speculation” means. It basically means “an opinion or reasoning based on incomplete facts or information”. Doing it because Dru wanted to do it is not based on speculation. It has precedence: “Innocence” (2.14).

                          My arguments take into account both Dru and Angelus wanting to do it.
                          Your arguments take as a given that Angel wanted to the Acathla thing independent of Dru wanting to do the Acathla thing. Your arguments are speculation; mine are reasoning and/or considerations.

                          Yet this seems to be something you can't understand because you seem to require Dru and Angelus having a drawn out discussion about opening Acathla.
                          Huh? I said that Dru wanted to use Acathla and Angel agreed. I don’t know where you are getting this from.

                          My quote: What actually happened is that Spike and Dru wanted to do the Judge thing and Angel did it

                          Not what happened is Spike and Dru did 'the Judge thing' and Drusilla invited Angelus to watch the show, to which he graciously accepted.
                          I’m referring to “Innocence” (2.14). Angel did at about as much as possible to be involved in the Judge thing. So, yes, he certainly “did it”.

                          Your use of language is implicit that Dru desire was influencing Angelus decision, but it doesn't prove that.
                          Then we proceed to go round in circles because when I address this, you argue that I'm implying either that Dru didn't want to Acathla to be opened or that Angelus was simply unaware that Dru wanted to open Acathla.
                          This is completely false. My problem is that you’ve never said that Angel before agreeing to do the Acathla thing already knew that Dru wanted to do it.


                          * My quote: But we do know that Dru wanted to do [the Judge and Acathla things] and we know that Angel knew that she did before he ‘signed on’ to help do them.

                          This is fact, which is why your saying
                          As for Acathla he didn't sign on to do anything. He simply chose to do it once he found out that Acathla was in town. There is no link in the dialogue that links Dru wanting to do it and Angelus doing it. Angelus never asked Dru what she wanted, only what she saw. He asked for information and made a decision based upon that information.
                          is untrue. You act like Dru simply brought Acathla up for no reason, Angel on his own decided to do the Acathla thing, and Dru later agreed. If you acknowledge that Angel already knew that Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing, it would pretty much decimate your argument that Angel doing the Acathla thing had nothing to do with Dru.

                          Anything else is speculation and requires quotes to prove it.
                          I gave you the quotes and you continue to not acknowledge what happened.

                          My quote: Really? That’s not what the AtS flashbacks show. They show that Angel was pretty much Darla’s puppy.

                          How?
                          Really, that’s another thread topic.

                          Spike and Dru were the one's who actually put the Judge together, all Angelus did was turn up and watched the show.
                          That is canonically incorrect.

                          Drusilla never said, "We're going to destroy the world, want to help", she merely 'invited him' to her party after Spike and herself did the hard work of planning it.
                          And Angel ended up going with her and having the minions block the exits. Angel ended up being as involved in the Judge thing as he could have been.

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