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  • Fade to Black

    This has been discussed before, but that's never stopped anyone from kicking a dead horse topic.

    So I've been rewatching the show a bit while work has been shut down. I've been thinking about the infamous fade to black scene in Chosen and the whole did they/did they not angle of it. I think it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a storytelling aspect that they didn't. Looking at the progression of S7 and the last couple eps in particular, to me it makes the most sense. You have them showing throughout the season that feelings were still there and Buffy pretty much embraced that they were there. Everyone has accepted the intimacy between them at that point. You have the first scene where nothing happens, but you have a clear display of said intimacy. You don't lay on a tiny cot in your basement stroking the hand of your platonic friend. Then you have the First chiding her that she wasn't asleep with her lover. While the comment itself doesn't really prove anything, Buffy's immediate head-jerk toward Spike says a lot. *She* views him that way.

    But we know from the script and commentary, THAT scene isn't meant to be seen as sexual. That moves us to the fade-to-black scene later where Joss, in his typical contradicting way, tells us it's perfectly acceptable to think they had sex. Which itself is a point in the favor of them doing it. For one, suddenly it's on the table. For another, there really isn't a reason for the scene if they don't since all the intimacy save the physical is established and expressed in the previous one. For what other reason is it there? To establish they *don't* do it again? That they just sleep? The scene is played as if something significant is about to happen.

    Obviously it's a bit of a Schrodinger's Scene. We'll never really know. They *could* after all have just gone back upstairs and spent the night playing D&D with the gang. But in terms of rational plausibility of the context in which it all goes down, like Buffy contemplating her last night on Earth. It seems like the most likely scenario, IMO. About the only thing I can think going against it is the idea of them doing it with everyone upstairs, but that's not a major obstacle.

    It goes without saying the comics are treated with the same BTVS canonicity as the floral print on my toilet paper in this post.

  • #2
    I think it works far better if they didn't. S7 is about them changing the way they influence each other, about positively empowering rather than abusing power. So it not being physical sexually whilst still being intimate is a change that I think it moves to in a positive way. I also think it is important that it isn't something that they are readily able to return to after the AR. As Joss says in the commentary for Chosen (as transcribed by Stormwreath)...
    [Spike and Buffy lie down on his bed together to sleep]

    The idea behind their sleeping together was very important. It was that their relationship had enough trust in it: that it was physical and romantic but not sexual. That was, of course, in response to the rape issue of last year, when he had attempted to rape her because he didn't understand the boundaries of their relationship – he was soulless. But having gotten his soul and having fought to become a person, we wanted to say this man can be redeemed from that.

    Not – and I've said this before, but I'll say it again – not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in the way of he's still a human being who did a wrong thing and we still count him as a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. Without saying "Okay, now they're going to become lovers again", because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very fine line.
    Yes it was left for the viewers to make their mind up but I really do think it works better for where they were that season and where they had come from for them to not have gone there yet.

    And yes, the comics pretty much confirmed that they hadn't. Their whole conversation in the hellmouth in S10 and how the start of their relationship in that was written would be odd if they had already slept together since S6. Of course choosing to ignore the comics is personal choice. But it makes sense that was the way it went as clearly Joss' own view is that they wouldn't have so the writing of them progressing as that being the truth isn't surprising.

    Comment


    • #3

      And what about Buffy?

      Really?

      Season 10! Yeah. THAT is more like it. (Even after “Joss” continues with the “metaphoric” ? rape of Buffy by her “trustworthy friends” thinking for her in season nine).

      This need to show trust and betrayal is central to discussions, not only of love, but of power, as season seven was stated to show. I was Buffy’s age and took this show really personally and I can’t help but be really upset STILL how much of a “miss” this was regarding Buffy and the subject of SELF EMPOWERMENT when it comes to rape. Crying out loud, she is still holding a torch for Angel to the blooming end!

      Somebody musta reminded Joss of how rape victims feel in the way one’s power is actually restored “after.” It isn’t about the rapist. So…this WAS NOT IT. I was super disappointed because so much of season seven was about power—what it is, where it comes from, how to wield it and what it means in “becoming” (an adult).

      The show was called BUFFY the vampire slayer and not Spuffy the vampire layer.

      I’m sorry but this whole “gotta redeem Spike” in time to bump him off in HIS transition/transfiguration, ultimate “shanshu” and giving Buffy a twitch that ‘hand stroking’ is the big and EQUAL show of “I am not marked,” “I’ve understood what I think is actually controlling all my choices” is B.S. And not in the way of Spuffy, which was shown to flower for Spike: that Spike offered himself and his body to her FOR HER in the true rest of “sanctuary” and he felt the depth of HIS responsibility for his feelings and for her instead of “what I want.”

      And the excuse that “there wasn’t enough time” to focus on Buffy’s getting over “betrayals by vampire lovers” is only on Joss’s use of it: three shows at once he never could do—all suffered and especially when so much “stuff” really was superfluous that really wasn’t the point Joss used to say everything had to be: ALL ABOUT BUFFY.

      Hugs!
      sybil

      P.S. I don't mean to be a thread killer


      Comment


      • #4
        HardlyThere
        It goes without saying the comics are treated with the same BTVS canonicity as the floral print on my toilet paper in this post. @
        You've got toilet paper?

        The way I see it, the relationship between Buffy and Spike in late season 7 is about being close. It is about intimacy. Spike says it pretty clearly himself.

        "I've never been close. Until last night."
        And it is made very clear that during the night he refers to they did not have sex.

        You can have sex. You can be intimate. And you can have sex and be intimate. I'd rule out that Buffy and Spike did the first of those three options during the last night in the basement. They definitely shared a night of intimacy. And maybe they had sex. But I don't think it even matters because it would not have made any difference to them or to their relationship at that point. It would not have changed the course of things nor would it had changed how they felt about each other.

        There is the argument that both of them might have expected to not make it through the battle. But imho that does not tip the scale either towards sex or against it. Is impending death really a catalyst for sex? Again, I wouldn't rule it out. Certainly not. But I don't think having sex in this situation is the more obvious thing to do in comparison to playing card games or talking or knitting or just lying in each other's arms.

        flow



        ................................ Banner by buffylover

        Comment


        • debbicles
          debbicles commented
          Editing a comment
          Flow, I’m with you there on the issue of loo roll!

      • #5
        I don’t think they got down and dirty in the fade-out. I think Spike had problems seeing himself as worthy of her. I think he had grasped it on an intellectual level before, as witness his conversation with Clem in Seeing Red (one of my favourite Spike scenes), but he’d never really felt it in his heart until he won his soul back and was able to see, as he stated in NLM, that he never realised how truly wretched he was. So count me as one of those who thought they either played checkers alone, and just talked about life, or went up to watch everyone playing D and D. Because even then I don’t think Giles would’ve tolerated Spike there in the game.

        And I feel a deep conversation would’ve indicated true intimacy and confidence in each other.
        You know what I am. You've always known. You come to me all the same.

        "There's a lot of comedy to be gotten from the world's doom spiral right now." Tracey Ullman, June 2018

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by flow View Post
          HardlyThere

          You've got toilet paper?
          Yup. One advantage of living in the middle of nowhere. No real shortages. Except for yogurt and potatoes which are apocalypse foods, apparently. Apples, oranges, bananas, grapes, milk and cheese... lots. Yogurt and spuds? Empty.

          And it is made very clear that during the night he refers to they did not have sex.
          That is largely part of my point. All of this is established without that scene. In the previous episode, both acknowledge they were there and it was the first connection they had. Then they go a step further in the final episode both by again establishing physical (not sexual) and emotional intimacy in the first basement scene, but that scene is bookended by sexually-tinged remarked so it's a progression.

          Which again goes back to the fade-to-black. Why is it there and why such build-up to it if it's meant to be a rehash of established statuses? Buffy is contemplating her existence then goes to the basement where it appears Spike is doing the same. He rises and they stare at each other... for retread of a scene already established. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

          Comment


          • #7
            Well the scene at the house between them when Buffy had been kicked out was him giving her strength and reassurance when she was losing confidence in herself. Going there again made it about them having become emotionally connected on a different level. Going from "We were never close" in Touched to being there with him. So in Chosen it becomes about choosing that knowingly rather than having fallen into that situation by accident perhaps. A solidification that it wasn't just a glitch. But importantly also that she still doesn't need to know what it means, and it doesn't have to mean more right at the moment. It meets the whole idea that she can want to be with him here and now, they can have become closer than they have ever been before and yet still not commit to anything more than what it currently is at this point in time.

            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by Stoney View Post
              Well the scene at the house between them when Buffy had been kicked out was him giving her strength and reassurance when she was losing confidence in herself. Going there again made it about them having become emotionally connected on a different level. Going from "We were never close" in Touched to being there with him. So in Chosen it becomes about choosing that knowingly rather than having fallen into that situation by accident perhaps. A solidification that it wasn't just a glitch. But importantly also that she still doesn't need to know what it means, and it doesn't have to mean more right at the moment. It meets the whole idea that she can want to be with him here and now, they can have become closer than they have ever been before and yet still not commit to anything more than what it currently is at this point in time.
              That describes the first scene.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by sybil View Post

                The show was called BUFFY the vampire slayer and not Spuffy the vampire layer.

                I’m sorry but this whole “gotta redeem Spike” in time to bump him off in HIS transition/transfiguration, ultimate “shanshu” and giving Buffy a twitch that ‘hand stroking’ is the big and EQUAL show of “I am not marked,” “I’ve understood what I think is actually controlling all my choices” is B.S. And not in the way of Spuffy, which was shown to flower for Spike: that Spike offered himself and his body to her FOR HER in the true rest of “sanctuary” and he felt the depth of HIS responsibility for his feelings and for her instead of “what I want.”

                And the excuse that “there wasn’t enough time” to focus on Buffy’s getting over “betrayals by vampire lovers” is only on Joss’s use of it: three shows at once he never could do—all suffered and especially when so much “stuff” really was superfluous that really wasn’t the point Joss used to say everything had to be: ALL ABOUT BUFFY.

                Hugs!
                sybil

                P.S. I don't mean to be a thread killer

                Yeah - the show was out of balance but that wasn't because of Spike. If you look at his onscreen time it is less than Willow's (and NB's drinking made him to hard to work with at this time). The real problem I see is that no one else had a compelling arc. Willow was afraid of doing magic, and she had a girlfriend she spent a lot of time with. That was a large part of her arc in season 6, and it was done far better in season 6. The closeness Willow and Buffy have is nicely shown early on, but once Willow meets Kennedy she and Buffy only meet to discuss strategies. The fact that the writers wrote her a lousy arc is not because of Spuffy.

                As for dealing with a sexual assault - let's start by defining rape because every rape victim in the world would differ with you calling what happened rape. There is a huge difference! And you are showing real disrespect to rape victims by not acknowledging that difference. I can tell you that by personal experience.

                Buffy has been stabbed, beaten, and almost killed. She found her mother dead, and died to save her sister. The show has a history of not dealing with trauma and stress realistically, otherwise the first finding of a dead body would have closed down the school and traumatized everyone. Even Willow finding a room full of dead classmates is over that shock and ready to party within hours. What you want is to make this assault more important than any trauma Buffy has ever suffered. You want weeks of therapy, and Buffy focusing on recovery.

                You may think that this is the only real way of showing how a sexual assault affects a victim. In fact, the message you are given to those of us that have been abused, raped or simply attacked is that the worst thing in the world is being an assault victim and we are truly screwed for life. It's worse than having a friend murdered, worse than anything other than being ripped out of heaven. It means we are scarred for life and can never recover. I can't think of a more toxic message for this show to dramatize. Victims have the right to respond in any way without being judged. As it is, after Spike told Buffy he had a soul, Buffy told Spike 'I don't care enough to try and rescue you.' Since Buffy forgives everyone, that is a strong message and a lot more realistic for this universe.

                As for everything having to be all about Buffy, there are plenty of episodes where she plays a minor role - and in most seasons the other characters have complete arcs. So I don't think Joss meant what you seem to believe he meant. Willow going insane and torture murdering Warren wasn't about Buffy - nor was her rehabilitation. Anya killing an entire fraternity was not about Buffy. Spike having an atonement arc has to be in part about Buffy because he is atoning for something he did to her. So most of what I am hearing is that you hate Spuffy - which is fine. but kinda same old stuff.

                .

                As for what happened that night - I think one factor that plays into this is whether Buffy knew that Spike was going to die. Angel told Buffy she couldn't wear it because he couldn't risk her, and Buffy told Angel she couldn't risk him wearing it. That has always bothered me, and it always will because it undercuts the importance that Spike has to Buffy. I mean Spike knew that an amulet from an unreliable source to be used as an extreme measure was probably going to kill him. So did Buffy make Spike her champion knowing he would probably die? Did she go down the stairs knowing they probably only had one more night together? If so, I think sex was more likely. If she thought they had more time together then I can see them holding off until after they defeated the First and were more able to talk.
                Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                  That describes the first scene.
                  I am talking about how Chosen adds on to what happened before in Touched. How having experienced becoming close after having only just acknowledging that they hadn't been close before (when they had been having sex galore) was then continued by them sharing a bed in Chosen (without I believe it being sexual again). I've described how one episode adds to another, not how one scene adds to what came before.

                  When Buffy walks down into the basement again the night before the battle and Spike stands there is a note of facing what is to come together. It isn't more sexually charged than the previous time when she had gone down to him and was about to walk away but he stopped her, despite her Angel breath. If anything it is less so and more focused on what is to come. But both are the same thing in terms of being different from where they have been before and not feeling she has to justify wanting that closeness with him now and the strength it gives her to stay with him, be held by him, by knowing where it might go in the future.

                  EDIT: They left it open because Joss outright says in the commentary they wanted the audience to make up their own minds... (transcribed by Stormwreath as before)...
                  [Buffy goes downstairs to see Spike]

                  And this bit here I did actually add on set. Not just the picture of Butthead on the punching bag but this, where I said I wanted to get a couple of shots. We were going fast – and that one, I didn't know if I was going to use the two of them. And to me it's almost the most important shot in the show because it really shows the mystery of their relationship. And that's one where I wanted the audience to fill in the blanks. I wanted them – I wanted whatever you want to have happened, to have happened. If people believe that on their last night together they made love, great! If they believe that on their last night together they talked all night, great! If they believe that they had a fight, great!

                  Whatever it is, it's up to the viewer and I think that the viewer has earned that, and I love that elliptical nature of their last night together. I think that there should be work for the viewer to do, in that sense, emotionally, because I think it makes it more textured. And that shot of the two of them looking at each other, I just find beautiful.
                  But, from my pov, as he felt it was right that they didn't go there only the previous scene when they slept together I don't think it would be different later. Or that the relationship shift/focus has to change later. I still think for all the reasons I've given that it works better for the season and where they had come to if they are just sharing time together again, without it being physical now but about emotional intimacy between them. Supporting and strengthening each other before the battle as they have been already. And yeah, I do think the canonical comics confirm they didn't go there at that point, if you follow the continuation.

                  Originally posted by bespangeled View Post
                  As for what happened that night - I think one factor that plays into this is whether Buffy knew that Spike was going to die. Angel told Buffy she couldn't wear it because he couldn't risk her, and Buffy told Angel she couldn't risk him wearing it. That has always bothered me, and it always will because it undercuts the importance that Spike has to Buffy. I mean Spike knew that an amulet from an unreliable source to be used as an extreme measure was probably going to kill him. So did Buffy make Spike her champion knowing he would probably die? Did she go down the stairs knowing they probably only had one more night together? If so, I think sex was more likely. If she thought they had more time together then I can see them holding off until after they defeated the First and were more able to talk.
                  I don't think Buffy knew that the amulet would kill Spike. I think Buffy knew that they were all at great risk going into that battle and that having someone else outside of it that could potentially find another way to challenge The First if they were all defeated, that second front, was just a tactically wise choice. Other than that, I think that she also realised, and Angel's response to what she said about Spike showed, that the posturing and jealousy could be potentially disruptive and undercut the advantage of just adding one more fighter to the mix in that battle.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    I am pretty much with Stoney here,
                    on all points—

                    So I will not repeat what she has said...

                    I'll only add this:

                    The argument that Buffy and Spike
                    had to take the next step is problematic
                    for me in its progressive teleology—

                    It assumes that relationships, that time
                    itself, flows in one direction, that the
                    past can lead to only one determined
                    future, that Buffy and Spike reaching
                    emotional intimacy means that they
                    just had to have sex or nothing makes
                    sense, that sex was the only possible
                    thing that could happen between them—

                    But neither time nor becoming work
                    that way:

                    If there is to be any future at all, it
                    must be radically open—

                    Yes, it draws upon the resources
                    of the past, is shaped by them, but
                    it is not determined

                    Buffy's entire history has showed us
                    this, so why should her final night in
                    Sunnydale, her final night before the
                    battle, her final night with Spike be
                    any different—

                    In Touched they found their way
                    to true intimacy, but that does not
                    mean that all the textures and
                    possibilities of that intimacy were
                    fully explored, exhausted that
                    night or the next one in the basement,
                    that they had nothing more to say
                    to each other, nothing more to
                    give in simply holding each other
                    in what they both realized might
                    be their last moments—

                    To insist that they had to have
                    sex, that their not doing so made
                    their facing each other meaningless—
                    that turns their relationship into a
                    simple algebraic equation with
                    only one possible solution...

                    Relations, becoming—

                    These flow between all the points
                    mapped out in simple progressions,
                    are far richer, more complex—


                    PS I, too, do not think that Buffy
                    realized that Spike would die—the
                    look on her face when she knows
                    he must tells her this, tells her she
                    was not prepared for it...


                    Comment


                    • #12

                      Hello! Bespangled!
                      Thank you! Major, madly seriously!

                      Greetings, Stoney and State of Siege, too! I hope I don’t kill the thread AGAIN! “Add spam.” Hee.

                      First, I am most sorry to hear you even had to go through all the steps that make you even realize you are a *successful * survivor. I most sincerely hope that you have given yourself everything you need to actually heal in full empowerment of both your autonomy and choices. I take “being marked” as a very serious “crippler.” And, yeah, that “me, too thing” comes down to one in three (or four if you are ‘endowed’ as male) and NUMBER ONE for murder if you are pregnant. (In US).

                      This topic is personal for way too many of us human beings, and I do understand there is a legal understanding and what was shown is meant to convey more than “scientific degrees of penetration” or even the power dynamics of “sex games.”

                      I do not think that the number of minutes on the screen of Spike’s journey, is relevant to the “journey’ that has been clearly in evidence since “ever” and I count him as a protagonist, even if you feel that “he” is lost in the “show” of season seven—especially surrounding the nature of power and the use, fear of , or claiming of it. I don’t think that reduces my claim that this is also to show a duality of body and of emotion/spirit, as set forth in the mythic setting of “shock” the ‘hero” often endures to change.

                      It is clear to me (season 6) that Buffy was in the room of expected privacy, the water was running to suggest she was going to remove her clothing and the water running was not some dribble, but to show the element that “drowns” Buffy’s f”fire” was “running hot.” Further, that expectation of privacy in the one room “bodily functions” are too private for social display, the present setting was no barrier to “what Spike wanted,’ and it was ignored, even after some length of time of Buffy basically saying, ‘No, no more, and no further” for whatever else went on in their previous relationship of season six. It also is her house; and ‘mommy vamp’ is kinda gone and doesn’t take care of ANY of Spike’s needs—whatever happened to a MASTER vampire?

                      What the “problem” with all of this is that Spike was the “female” principle, who is supposed to represent all the negative of male energy/principle’ in season six Buffy ‘becoming’ the vampire. She was a (male) vampire and “she” was beating (herself) to a pulp.

                      Because Spike was soulless in season 6, HE goes through the shock to change and goes for his soul—but “FOR her/’”beat” Angel,’ until his journey continues with choosing his soul because he wants it for himself: to know and to accept the responsibility of change in its meaning for HIM. Which is what drove a lot of season 7 on his journey to be “fit enough a hero’ to be killed for the third time and finally “make it.”

                      Meanwhile, season six, Buffy’s trauma, shock and also now, emotional self hate unto self-annihilation is what Spike IS: The eternally “stuck’ vampire, no change-Buffy’s own female principle being both physically and emotionally stuck/unchanging/ and dead to forever be annihilated.

                      “Get it out” is everything Spike is: expression. This is supposed to be a confrontation of male/female principles within the self.

                      The problem is that the “show’ is of a male body, who crawls over a female body, who clearly and absolutely is KNOWING what is about to happen and is actually living the “experience” of sexual assault, because her autonomy and choice are ALREADY being VIOLATED, both physically and ‘of mind’-emotional/spiritual.

                      She clearly, says “No”—which many can’t even muster in the horror of betrayal, disrespect, and even triggering of all the cultural reasons for WOMEN in particular to feel “less” and even deserving of this appalling power dynamic aka “abuse.”

                      Buffy, further shows ‘water’ literally leaking out of her: she cries, she even sobs; she does not look at her attacker because she is trying to “disembody” in any kind of ‘self protection’ she can muster. YOU may well know “living through it” happens even before “it” happens in a whole process of hope, betrayal, disbelief, disrespect, outward and inward ‘flight/fight’ and is not just some legal version of “chunga chunga” while filing fingernails.

                      And the ‘muster of will’ is really wonderful for Buffy to “take back” herself and not be in some “mythical metaphor.” BUT IT IS NOT ENOUGH.

                      Yes, it’s a big “yea!” moment, which many being victimized can’t begin to do in RL, but I never saw that “self-empowerment” that all HUMANS (including the attacker, in the ‘what’s your damage’ sort of way), must do and it isn’t enough to hand me a ‘myth,’ yet again, in some “union of opposites” in Buffy/Faith; and in Buffy/Willow—particularly well done in Willow a literal goddess and having conquered ‘fear of herself, her power.”

                      But, the crazy of “trust” because BUFFY needed it to trust herself, is really that ‘like with like’ thing and the point, to me, in season 7 is that (1) Spike is a protagonist in the story, so a person has to pay attention. ( 2). WHO CARES about Kennedy, et al, compared TO THAT? Some, dizzying “aspects of Buffy,’ who actually are not some ‘metaphor’ or “POV” is clearly NOW shown in that they EACH have a mind and talents of their own. THAT is why the ‘metaphoric’ isn’t getting the job done in the very fact season six DEPARTED from it. We are leaving childhood for adulthood.

                      While I never had therapy, I had Buffy and a child, I don’t negate anyone’s idea of the worst. I can’t comprehend the encyclopedia of evil people can even IMAGINE to do to each other. I was a rabid atheist, and saw religion in all culture as the job of the oppressed to be oppressors. See women.

                      It was manic/depressive Dolores Huertas of ‘Caesar Chavez’ fame, with absolutely nothing in the middle of nothing nowhere, with eight kids, groveling in the dirt to God for any help, direction that told me to STFU. I can’t describe how much murder goes on in crime or disease that leave all helpless.



                      I have to admit, sometimes, self quoting “examples” within narrative with the “what about” defense seems weaker to me than the story bringing up something ‘major’ and actually ‘showing’ all the reasons ‘why’ for the TITULAR character I am supposed to be watching.

                      Yes, other protagonists absolutely must be “relevant” because we have to take them seriously in their own observations and choices, that, IN THIS STORY, actually were to show “all about Buffy.’ Spike made a journey because of Buffy, but you find many fans who do see his journey is actually quite his own and “stands” for itself. (I think that is not as true for any other—a lot of “magic” and ‘mind wipe’ and cough-cough, cuz I sez is thrown in there. Perhaps, because no one person can be absolutely completely revealed in each second of time and ‘make sense’ of it, as well. Let alone ‘understand all these ‘prophetic visions/dreams.” I do recognize the main protagonists also support/destroy, mirror, themselves in their own development that Buffy is “all wet”—and get out the metaphor drawer.

                      The problem.

                      However, I see the ‘forgiveness of Spike’ is the “sign” of some sort of “normal” Buffy. But! The process, however short or long, is figuring out how long it takes YOU to “process” even to “laugh at yourself,” forgive yourself for “being owned” by ANY trauma that limits your own choice and free expression, is also how to ‘laugh again’ and claim your autonomy and power. Being surprised at laughing in the “middle of a funeral” is a pretty common (nervous/relief) response. And yes, that is a metaphor.

                      However! It isn’t just intimacy and trust of another, who is really, really I mean REALLY sorry, (Spike) but in the ability to accept what another can give, and thus, taking comfort as a gift to give yourself and a sign that forgiveness Buffy is famous for. THIS is what many Spuffy wanted to see as the process of “mutualness” and healing between Buffy and Spike, what is offered and given is both offered and given in the taking to both.

                      But, for me, the “point,” is AGAIN the ‘hand touching/clasping’ with Spike in the moments before battle is, once again, a ‘union of opposites’ moment, both physically and spiritually, but Buffy is rendered as KALI, why she dances over skulls; and why “Lord of the Dance” SHIVA for the “flip over,” typical of “the new myth telling,’ is in showing Spike’s ‘death to life” “Moment of Stillness” transformation/ transfiguration is “what’s to be understood” in the plotty/story “journey of becoming” to achievement (adulthood)—but for the necklace as soul catcher, of course.

                      The fact that Spike lost his body, suggests, as ‘like with like’ persona to Buffy, that she hasn’t really done the work to claim her own. No kidding…


                      AND THAT is why the “being taken over” or ‘divided,’ over and over, is NOT a good sign for the integrated self, whoever you are. Which is a huge subject of the comics to actually SHOW that the writers, flat out, DID NOT deal with the actual trauma of rape in both power and betrayal. The “problem” is Buffy! Otherwise we wouldn’t have had five more seasons (of comics) HARPING on it.

                      Agreed, that “balance” of season seven is a wild swing into “Blah, Blah, speechify and testify; and whuh, huh? along with a spinning blender of stories of characters, old and new, that barely even hang together, with some sorta drive to ‘filling time/plot” with a separate sound stage for any and all forms into the meaning of “intimacy.” (Kinda making up whole stories of lives, as you whiz by people when riding a train—which is actually a book.

                      Just sayin’ Buffy has a little jerk of the hand, an emotional expression she almost tries to cover in her body’s immediate response; and Spike goes through every possible “permutation” of past, present, fear of future in trying to ‘argue’ he wants/doesn’t want/deserve his soul. The rest? Now you see us, now you don’t.

                      Not to mention, we know limbs have been expressions/metaphors of the phallus—whether female or male genetalia. Thatsa, thatsa all, FOLKS!! This is on balance with the “hand” referenced in my previous post. The hand of intimacy is also a hand of the body showing expression, in giving or taking.

                      NO, I do not hate Spuffy because I LOVE myths; and that is how I see it—just as I describe many couples in terms of “like with like” or ‘male/female principle” or the great “forever moment” in ‘union of opposites.’ I think that the “show” of the latter is absolutely clear in Hindu myth that makes Spuffy everything a “Spuffy’ would consider “perfect, divine, forever moment—love.” I think that ‘facing each other” is critical in “knowing what to see” as a “show’ of ‘human’ because that is even how we ‘join’ as well.

                      This stuff to which I speak my seem all on a spiritual view, as it were, because, IMO, Buffy has done absolutely everything to “stay a child” because to me, Dawn is the ‘normal person’ actually ‘becoming’ ==and I hate ! it) and it happened in season six: Buffy became the avatar, even as Spike—NOT Buffy—“achieved (normal) adulthood.”

                      “Risk” is not an “absolute,” and that teensy potential of surviving, is hope and important in how we fight for life in the face of death none will escape: not today! While I do think that Buffy/Spike is a mirror of “like with like” and I do think the ‘union of opposites” kinds of intimacy showed me Buffy’s ‘acceptance of self’ in her place, at this time, it is also not enough.

                      Buffy is in preparation for it. It is actually shown best in “Chosen” in the mythic “point” of Spuffy. BUT BUFFY has not achieved herself, as did Spike. SHE didn’t die—that mythical, fairy-tale, “third death” because DEATH is the floorboard of transformation/change since day one of the story.
                      The entire point of the ‘forever moment’ between Spike and Buffy to me, is exactly that ‘more time’ ‘more place’ ‘more anything’ is non sequitor. Buffy goes to the beginning, but is not alone, and she has learned many lessons as a woman who is the slayer—they can’t be divorced from each other—for that is to deny the whole of the self. Integrated, autonomous, free will, leap of faith- self? She gets on the yellow school bus, doesn’t she?

                      Here let me wipe off that drool and wake up the rest to go home. Now begins your weeping with joy. Hee!
                      Hugs!
                      sybil









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                      • #13
                        HardlyThere :
                        Why is it there and why such build-up to it if it's meant to be a rehash of established statuses? Buffy is contemplating her existence then goes to the basement where it appears Spike is doing the same. He rises and they stare at each other... for retread of a scene already established. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
                        Spike and Buffy carried a lot of baggage with them through the course of season 7. You see a small part of it in the way Buffy flinches when Spikes touches her face in Touched. The first night (in a stranger' s home) they spend together enables them to leave this baggage behind them and finally become close.

                        But even without this baggage they both still have to deal with their own insecurities and issues. That's what they do in that second night (the first one in the basement).

                        So, when the third night (the second in the basement at Revello Drive) comes, you see Buffy and Spike facing each other. She is coming down the stairs, he is raising from the cot. and they standing there as equals, finally able to bridge the gap that has always been there and separating them. It is visualized in the shot before the screen fades to black. Finally, they are free to meet each other, to embrace each other. And that's what they do. There is a huge difference between the first and second nights and this final night. Of course, they are also free to have sex. But in this very moment and at that point in their relationship it is
                        irrelevant if they had sex or not.

                        Or, to put it another way around - what difference would it have made - in your opinion - if they did have sex as opposed to not have had sex?

                        bespangeled
                        I think one factor that plays into this is whether Buffy knew that Spike was going to die
                        No, she didn't It is very clear that she did not tell Spike she loved him in that final night in the basement and the reason she didn't tell him is - in my opinion - that she thought she would have time enough after the final battle. Buffy told Spike (the night before) "we are going to win this" and there is so much enthusiasm in her demeanor that I believe the possibility of deaths had completely slipped her mind.

                        I do think on the other hand that Spike very much expected to not make it. It's in his the way he looks at the amulet the second before Buffy comes down the stairs.

                        flow

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                        • #14
                          Obviously I don't know, and I often flip from one opinion to another. But I tend to think Spike and Buffy are both very physical people, they communicate best through touch and it's often words that get them into trouble with each other. So I think it is highly possible they had sex that last night. That thought doesn't reduce their relationship in my eyes, because I know they would have taken comfort in each other and strength from each other.

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                          • #15
                            If they did anything, it was to make love for the very first time as opposed to just having sex.
                            Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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