Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Better Or Lucky

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Stoney No a great deal of it is purely unconscious but it does result in fairly regular direct references or comments that show another contrast is being made, that he lurks in the backgrounds in different ways for them both. Not one season goes by without it. So yeah, it doesn't feel out of nothing that a triangle is played in S7 when he literally appears to me.

    I posted this elsewhere but you might find it interesting. A friend (a Victorian specialist) was looking at a shot of the bed scene in Touched - specifically the shot where Spike kisses the top of Buffy's head. She's never seen BtVS. She said the arrangement of the shot reminded her of a Pre-Raphaelite painting by Simeon Solomon "The Sleepers and the One Who Watcheth". Here: http://preraphaelitepaintings.blogsp...th-simeon.html

    I asked her who the third person in the triangle was - the "Watcher" the sleepers are unaware of - it's an angel.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #92
      Of course, she's "lucky" in this particular context. She's got leadership role only because her status as a slayer and she's got completely blinded by it. She's got so delusional that she'd thought that she could just ignore everyone's concerns. She had decided that she could sacrifice anyone for the goal. She became similar to Giles in this matter, with one very big difference. Giles unlike her, never thought about her as just a voiceless pawn. She was his champion and he would sacrifice her to save the world, but he would never do that against her will. We had this discussion before and I know that I am minority in my opinion here, but that scene in Empty places was very satisfying to me. Buffy was incredibly arrogant and deserved that. When people say about her friends "betraying" her, the one who saved them many times, I disagree. Yes she had saved them many, many times, but they also did that for her. They literally brought her back to life. It's two way street, she couldn't just ignore her friends and then be surprised that they have said enough to that.

      She's also crappy leader. A leader is a person who inspire his/her followers, makes them confident in his/her abilities and decisions. She's literally none of that. She ignored everyone, but Spike, so no surprise that everyone, but Spike had turned against her. Her only argument was "I'm a slayer, so I'm right". Yep, you're a slayer, but you aren't the only one.

      As for her being shown to be right in the end, I'd say meh.. to that. Stupid McGuffin storyline wouldn't change my opinion here. If anything it's just another example of pure luck.

      I know that I sound very harsh, but it's just as I see it. It was lowest point in my opinion of Buffy ever and I'm glad that this had lead to this cathartic scene and afterward to her scene with Spike where I could relate to her and like her again.
      Last edited by Alce; 03-02-20, 02:59 AM.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Alce View Post
        Of course, she's "lucky" in this particular context. She's got leadership role only because her status as a slayer and she's got completely blinded by it. She's got so delusional that she'd thought that she could just ignore everyone's concerns. She had decided that she could sacrifice anyone for the goal. She became similar to Giles in this matter, with one very big difference. Giles unlike her, never thought about her as just a voiceless pawn. She was his champion and he would sacrifice her to save the world, but he would never do that against her will. We had this discussion before and I know that I am minority in my opinion here, but that scene in Empty places was very satisfying to me. Buffy was incredibly arrogant and deserved that. When people say about her friends "betraying" her, the one who saved them many times, I disagree. Yes she had saved them many, many times, but they also did that for her. They literally brought her back to life. It's two way street, she couldn't just ignore her friends and then be surprised that they have said enough to that.

        She's also crappy leader. A leader is a person who inspire his/her followers, makes them confident in his/her abilities and decisions. She's literally none of that. She ignored everyone, but Spike, so no surprise that everyone, but Spike had turned against her. Her only argument was "I'm a slayer, so I'm right". Yep, you're a slayer, but you aren't the only one.

        As for her being shown to be right in the end, I'd say meh.. to that. Stupid McGuffin storyline wouldn't change my opinion here. If anything it's just another example of pure luck.

        I know that I sound very harsh, but it's just as I see it. It was lowest point in my opinion of Buffy ever and I'm glad that this had lead to this cathartic scene and afterward to her scene with Spike where I could relate to her and like her again.
        Lucky? Let's see.

        Season one - Buffy has been kicked out of school for burning down a building and general delinquency. Her parents got divorced because of the pressures. She was briefly in a clinic for the mentally ill. When she comes to Sunnydale and tries to live a normal life she can't date a normal person, or join the cheer leading squad, or tell anyone what she does. Her night hours are spent fighting for the whole town.. After being almost raped by hyena Xander, and saving her friends repeatedly, Buffy goes to fight the Master knowing she will die at the age of 16. Lucky girl.

        Season 2 - Buffy continues to save her friends from the bezoar, from penis metaphors, mummy girl, Eyghon, several hired killers, etc. She sleeps with her boyfriend and he goes insane, killing her friends, killing her teacher, almost killing her watcher - and she has to kill him. Her mother kicks her out and she is expelled from school. Lucky girl.

        I'm not gonna keep listing all the lucky things that come with being a slayer because you get my drift. I will point out that in season 5 she dies to save her friends and the world. Lucky girl to die at 20 years old. Her friends rip her out of heaven because they need the slayer "Bring back the warrior of the people" They won't deal with her pain and trauma but they expect her to take care of them as usual. Lucky girl

        Buffy thinks she in charge in season 7 because Giles put her in charge. He told her trepeatedly that she alone can save them all. No pressure there. Giles claims her life is chaos, but it wasn't until he arrived and saddled her with saving the world again that her life became chaotic. Lucky girl

        When she gets beaten to a pulp the only concern is that Buffy may not be useful - and she was the only plan to defeat this menace. I can't really come up with more than one short scene where Giles helps with the potentials even though he is a watcher and that's what he is trained to do. I doubt he knows their names. Xander repairs stuff - and has sexual fantasies about the potentials. Willow seems to be the most helpful, but I don's see her interacting with any potentials other than Kennedy. Giles conspires to have her lieutenant killed while lecturing her on making choices and being a general - undercutting her ability to make choices. Lucky girl

        Buffy works directly with the slayers - taking them out for training more than once but it is not enough for Faith.. She is beaten unconscious by Caleb, comes home to find that Giles (who yelled at them for joking around about dating) has told Faith to take the potentials out drinking and dancing. Giles again wants instant forgiveness for his betrayal of everything they had - for using their history to stall her. When Buffy gets there the girls are drunk and brawling in the street. When she objects, Faith accuses her of being responsible fore everything that has gone wrong, including the deaths of two girls. Because even though it was Wood who suggested it, and the others wanted to do to go after Caleb - Buffy is completely responsible. Lucky girl

        That's how lucky she is to be the slayer. Her life has been unmitigated hell - she has died three times. She has a war to fight, and the deadline is now!! Is she distant? To a degree - but then sitting down and comforting each girl, holding back and training them slowly, taking on solving everyone's personal problems - that is gonna get them all killed. By and large the girls believe that they are their to be protected - that Buffy will somehow defeat the First on her own - because Giles told them Buffy will protect them. It is all on her shoulders. Lucky girl - she gets to be bitched at for everything that goes wrong, put in charge by Giles then betrayed by him, forced to have her entire house filled with strangers and told she has to keep them all safe, and then blamed because she leads the girls into a trap.

        Then the potentials decide they would rather have party girl Faith in charge and kick her out of her own home - while Giles, Willow, and Xander encourage the potentials to turn against her.. Knowing that they are protected by Willow's wards, knowing Buffy was beaten unconscious already once that day and that she is the person the First really wants dead, they send her off without anyone to watch her back. The people she has saved repeatedly send her out to die, or live, and they clearly don't care which. Lucky girl

        Yeah, I sound harsh but you know what - I really don't care. It infuriates me the way people she has saved, supposed friends and family, don't care enough to kick out the potentials and Wood, and Anya and sit down to talk. Wood and Giles get to have their revenge because Buffy got angry at them for their treason. Willow and Xander choose Faith to lead them - the girl who sided with the Mayor and tried to get them all killed, the murderer, the slayer who has been in prison for years, the slayer who dedicated her life in Sunnydale to taking everything Buffy had and trying to kill her, the slayer who has no leadership skills and doesn't play well with others. Her sister kicks her out and none of her friends care enough to say a word in her defense..

        Ding, dong, the witch is dead - lucky girl. They are hateful, ungrateful pieces of crap and Buffy should have let them all die. But she is better than that. Not luckier - better.
        Last edited by bespangeled; 05-02-20, 01:25 AM.
        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

        Comment


        • #94
          I didn't put "in this particular context" for no reason. It's irrelevant if being a slayer had positive or negative overall impact on her life. She became slayer, because she was born as potential and previous slayer had been killed. It's a matter of luck, if this was a good or bad luck is another story that had no connection to what Anya had said. She's no better than others, she had no moral or intellectual superiority over others just because she's a slayer. And here the thing, being a slayer was enough to became leader, but it's not sufficient to be one.

          Yes, girls were there for protection and why wouldn't they? They were told that she's the only one who could protect them. So how it's happened that they had "betrayed" her, their only protector? Let's see. First. A murderous monster that is under control of the very thing that want to kill them all is roaming among them and Buffy, who as they all know is/was his lover, does absolutely nothing about that. Second. Girl is dead and Buffy clearly shows that she don't care about that because she had bigger concerns than that. Third. Two girls were killed because of her decisions (and no, you can't blame anyone else here, she was the leader and it was her decision in the end, no matter who had suggested it) and she still insisted that there would be no discussions, because she's a slayer and she's in charge. Sorry, but, as I see it, dumping her and choosing Faith instead was the most sensible thing those girls could ever do. From their point of view there just wasn't any reason to not do that. And that's all because she had completely failed as their leader. They didn't believe in her and they had absolutely no reason to do so.

          She had brought all that on herself. Luckily in the end all of that not only humbled her, but also did help her to became a better leader.
          Last edited by Alce; 05-02-20, 10:21 AM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Priceless View Post
            Anya tells Buffy she isn't better than everyone else, she's just luckier. Do you think being the Chosen One is a stroke of luck? Does being chosen make you better; morally, physically or any other way? Is Anya right?
            No, I don't think Anya was right. Buffy was better - she was determined, trained hard and worked at a life outside of slaying. Not all slayers could do that, certainly not all people. The chosen part just gave her a higher capacity in survival skills, it didn't add to her heart and smarts.

            Perhaps she was "chosen" because of her nature, she was the strongest candidate at a weak point at the time the Power was looking for a new host. I would not call that lucky.

            Comment


            • Stoney
              Stoney commented
              Editing a comment
              I tend to think being chosen isn't a totally random selection too.

          • #96
            Originally posted by Alce;n688056[QUOTE
            ]I didn't put "in this particular context" for no reason. It's irrelevant if being a slayer had positive or negative overall impact on her life. She became slayer, because she was born as potential and previous slayer had been killed. It's a matter of luck, if this was a good or bad luck is another story that had no connection to what Anya had said. She's no better than others, she had no moral or intellectual superiority over others just because she's a slayer. And here the thing, being a slayer was enough to became leader, but it's not sufficient to be one.
            Luck is more than just blind chance. Luckier has a value distinction. It's only valid if becoming the slayer is a good thing. So when another slayer died and she was called, did that make Buffy luckier?. I just wrote a listen of reasons why it didn't - why it made her life much harder - as rebuttal to what Anya said. For six and a half years Buffy has led everyone just fine. She's kept them alive and undamaged. But now the potentials are in the mix and the expectation is that she alone will be able to keep them all unharmed regardless of what they face.

            Yes, girls were there for protection and why wouldn't they? They were told that she's the only one who could protect them. So how it's happened that they had "betrayed" her, their only protector?
            The potentials no longer had to worry about being stabbed by a bringer. Actually the potentials are as safe as Buffy could manage, but the ante was raised considerably.

            I don't think the potentials - including Kennedy - should have a say in the matter. They are panicked kids with no demon fighting experience. So I really don't care a lot about their choices. The betrayal is from those who have followed Buffy and trusted her, and called her their friend.

            Normally Giles is the voice of reason. But Giles and Wood work together to take away the power of a female leader because she won't do what they think should be done. That's part of the theme of the entire season. Giles left so that Buffy would grow into herself and she has. Now that he's back, he's upset that Buffy no longer sees him as her watcher. For the first time Buffy is treating him like a peer, an equal, and he's finding he doesn't like it. I can actually understand why he is doing what he does - taking control away from Buffy.

            Xander lost an eye, so I can see why he's hesitant. But Buffy isn't responsible for what happened. Xander was where he wanted to be, taking the same kind of risks he has always taken. If you say that Buffy is responsible now then you're saying that Buffy should have been able to keep everyone safe and uninjured for the whole seven seasons. Xander had free will and he used it.

            Willow is the one I really can't figure out. She's the one I would expect to see suggesting they go off and talk away from the kids. Willow and Buffy are best friends, who were using their strength to grow back skin just a few months ago. I haven't seen any sign that she has a problem with Buffy at all. If her feelings were hurt, Willow would speak up. If she thought Buffy was being reckless or out of touch she would have talked to her. Why does she let everyone attack without saying a word of support for her best friend? Why does she sit next to Anya and make no comment about that vitriolic speech. Having been almost killed by Faith, why does she support Faith as the new leader?

            The betrayal is that not one of these people cared enough about Buffy to foresee how this was gonna work out. They didn't get rid of the crowd, and then sit down and have a civil conversation. Instead they allowed for a public humiliation and blamed her for everything that had gone wrong.

            Let's see. First. A murderous monster that is under control of the very thing that want to kill them all is roaming among them and Buffy, who as they all know is/was his lover, does absolutely nothing about that.
            As far as the potentials are concerned, they don't seem to care. Four of them were mildly upset early on. But when the subject of Spike came up, it was dismissed immediately. You have a problem with this – they didn't.

            Second. Girl is dead and Buffy clearly shows that she don't care about that because she had bigger concerns than that. Third. Two girls were killed because of her decisions (and no, you can't blame anyone else here, she was the leader and it was her decision in the end, no matter who had suggested it) and she still insisted that there would be no discussions, because she's a slayer and she's in charge.
            Not one person went to that battle under duress. Not one person was forced to fight. They knew the risks and they were willing to take them. Buffy is not to blame – Caleb is. Buffy is not to blame for Chloe's death – the First had a hand in it and Kennedy calling her a maggot probably didn't help. Buffy is trying to win a war. It's the only way to save the world. She can't sit and hold everyone's hands, and make absolutely certain no one will ever get injured in any battle.

            Sorry, but, as I see it, dumping her and choosing Faith instead was the most sensible thing those girls could ever do. From their point of view there just wasn't any reason to not do that. And that's all because she had completely failed as their leader. They didn't believe in her and they had absolutely no reason to do so.
            Again, I can see why the potentials want Faith. She's the friend who takes them out to drink and parties with them. But Faith has never led anyone. I know why Giles was okay with that – he wants a slayer who will do what he wants. He wants to be the power behind the throne that he has always been. But Xander and Willow? Faith held a knife to Willows throat and tried to kill her. She has murdered at least 3 people. For that Willow turns against her best friend? That is the betrayal.

            She had brought all that on yourself. Luckily in the end all of that not only humbled her, but also did help her to became a better leader.
            I don't think it humbled her. It's just that Faith got a lot of girls killed and injured, and there was no one left to lead. The girls turned against Faith immediately, because that's what the potentials do. They wanted Buffy back – even said they were being punished for pushing her out.





            Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

            Comment


            • #97
              Lucky enough to die twice? To lose all her childhood? Be expelled twice? To bear the weight of saving the planet? Yeah, no, she is not lucky. She is better. She is bloody amazing!

              She could have walked away from so many conflicts, avoided so many wounds, so much pain.

              Destitution. Raising a child alone while saving the world without so much as a salary? After digging out of her grave? Just having to dig out of her cold, dark, airless prison is nightmare fuel forever. Not my idea of lucky. Not even close.

              Being gifted with a super power center and living for over 1100 years and changing lives and history to your whim? That might be considered lucky! Punishing those you deem unworthy? Yeah, that does not make you better or even good. And Anya much as i love her character NEVER repented, regretted or renounced her centuries of distruction and she thinks SHE should judge the person who has actually saved her repeatedly! A world of hell no!

              Comment


              • #98
                Originally posted by bespangled View Post

                Luck is more than just blind chance. Luckier has a value distinction. It's only valid if becoming the slayer is a good thing. So when another slayer died and she was called, did that make Buffy luckier?. I just wrote a listen of reasons why it didn't - why it made her life much harder - as rebuttal to what Anya said.
                It isn't. Expressions "good luck" and "bad luck" exist by a reason. Yes, usually it means good luck, but not always and Anya is completely right with using it in her speech. She was born as future Slayer, she didn't earn that. It wasn't a question of if she was better in life as slayer, it was question of her claiming her leader role, because she's a slayer.


                For six and a half years Buffy has led everyone just fine. She's kept them alive and undamaged. But now the potentials are in the mix and the expectation is that she alone will be able to keep them all unharmed regardless of what they face.The potentials no longer had to worry about being stabbed by a bringer. Actually the potentials are as safe as Buffy could manage, but the ante was raised considerably.

                I don't think the potentials - including Kennedy - should have a say in the matter. They are panicked kids with no demon fighting experience. So I really don't care a lot about their choices. The betrayal is from those who have followed Buffy and trusted her, and called her their friend.
                She haven't lead them for 6 and a half years. In her speech she claimed that she kept them alive for 7 years and that's something we all could agree with. She kept them alive and they kept her alive too. She would be dead without them by her side. As for potentials, the very moment she started using them as her foot soldiers they did get the right to have and express their opinion on that. Like, I know, we don't really care about them as characters, but some of them had died following her, so no, they should be having equal voice to anyone else in that group.


                Normally Giles is the voice of reason. But Giles and Wood work together to take away the power of a female leader because she won't do what they think should be done. That's part of the theme of the entire season. Giles left so that Buffy would grow into herself and she has. Now that he's back, he's upset that Buffy no longer sees him as her watcher. For the first time Buffy is treating him like a peer, an equal, and he's finding he doesn't like it. I can actually understand why he is doing what he does - taking control away from Buffy.
                First a little side note. When I first read this laughable theory about Giles suddenly becoming this needy, pathetic man, who desperately needs Buffy to give him meaning in life, I was a little shocked. Like where do people get that nonsense from? Maybe I don't understand something? I think I even join this forum partly because of that. But after I haven't seen a single argument for that, I just realized that it was just unconscious protection of Buffy. Instead of arguing about substance, like who are right in Spike's situation for example, we just call Giles a patriarchal relic and will be done with that.

                Also about Buffy treating him as equal for the first time. Firstly I actually think that their relations were that of equals before that, he had mostly role of adviser, not her superior. But anyway, even if we could argue about that, she clearly didn't treat him as equal at that moment. In fact when he said that they aren't together on that she literally demanded that him and others fall in line with her. It was her exact words to him "That's why you have to fall in line". I wouldn't blame him if he was upset about this line.

                As for "she won't do what they think should be done", the very problem in that scene was that it was them, all of them, who didn't want to do what she want. And they didn't even refuse it completely, they just all were saying that they need more information than that. And in that very moment, she decided to play her slayer card. Which had failed miserably. She brought that mutiny on herself, by being arrogant and ignoring all others.


                Not one person went to that battle under duress. Not one person was forced to fight. They knew the risks and they were willing to take them. Buffy is not to blame – Caleb is. Buffy is not to blame for Chloe's death – the First had a hand in it and Kennedy calling her a maggot probably didn't help. Buffy is trying to win a war. It's the only way to save the world. She can't sit and hold everyone's hands, and make absolutely certain no one will ever get injured in any battle.
                Buffy isn't to blame for Chloe's death and nobody's blaming her. But she had shown that she don't care and it was one of the reason why they had lost trust in her. Their main motivation was to stay alive and nobody wants to have leader who doesn't care about their life. As for "no one was forced", yes, no one was forced, but they didn't even replace her as a leader because of that battle, they replaced her, because she insisted on going there again. Against their will. If that isn't "forcing", I don't know what is. And again as leader she's the one who makes decisions and if that looks like a bad decision, then you looks like a bad leader.


                Again, I can see why the potentials want Faith. She's the friend who takes them out to drink and parties with them. But Faith has never led anyone. I know why Giles was okay with that – he wants a slayer who will do what he wants. He wants to be the power behind the throne that he has always been. But Xander and Willow? Faith held a knife to Willows throat and tried to kill her. She has murdered at least 3 people. For that Willow turns against her best friend? That is the betrayal.
                Potentials would replace her with any slayer, problem wasn't that they liked Faith more than Buffy, problem was that they didn't trust Buffy at all. I already said all I wanted about this Giles' nonsense. As for Xander and Willow , they are her friends, but it doesn't mean that they should comply with her on everything. She couldn't convince them to do what she wanted, so she had tried to force them. She's got what she deserved here. She left them no choice.
                Last edited by Alce; 06-02-20, 06:38 AM.

                Comment


                • #99


                  It isn't. Expressions "good luck" and "bad luck" exist by a reason. Yes, usually it means good luck, but not always and Anya is completely right with using it in her speech. She was born as future Slayer, she didn't earn that. It wasn't a question of if she was better in life as slayer, it was question of her claiming her leader role, because she's a slayer.
                  ANYA You really do think you're better than we are. But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.

                  Not lucky - luckier. As I said, luckier has a value distinction - it's a standard scale that moves in one direction. It's only valid if becoming the slayer is a good thing. Unless you want to make the case that Xander is luckier because he's now blind in one eye.


                  She haven't lead them for 6 and a half years. In her speech she claimed that she kept them alive for 7 years and that's something we all could agree with. She kept them alive and they kept her alive too. She would be dead without them by her side. As for potentials, the very moment she started using them as her foot soldiers they did get the right to have and express their opinion on that. Like, I know, we don't really care about them as characters, but some of them had died following her, so no, they should be having equal voice to anyone else in that group.
                  What do you mean, Buffy used them as foot soldiers? How the heck was she supposed to protect them if she didn't teach them how to fight back? That war is more theirs than hers at this time. Killing the thousands of potentials in the world would take some time, and others would be born. They came to her for help against the bringers who were killing them. Given that situation I have to say that too many of them are entitled, immature brats. Instead of pitching in and learning how to fight they complain that they just don't feel protected enough. I can see how hard it must be to get one good slayer out of a crowd like that. So I still don't think the kids in the classroom get to choose a new teacher when they don't want to take a test. These kids are learning how to fight back so they can survive.

                  First a little side note. When I first read this laughable theory about Giles suddenly becoming this needy, pathetic man, who desperately needs Buffy to give him meaning in life, I was a little shocked. Like where do people get that nonsense from? Maybe I don't understand something? I think I even join this forum partly because of that. But after I haven't seen a single argument for that, I just realized that it was just unconscious protection of Buffy. Instead of arguing about substance, like who are right in Spike's situation for example, we just call Giles a patriarchal relic and will be done with that.
                  I like the sharing of ideas even when I completely disagree. Especially when I completely disagree.

                  Thematically the struggle between Buffy and Giles works, this season being about power. It's about power is stated several times in the first episode, and the season ends with the potentials being empowered. The Council is a fundamentally misogynistic group whose inception was the rape of a young woman chained to a rock. They represents the male power structure, and Giles is part of that structure. That's where the misogyny angle comes from.

                  Giles has always been the power behind the throne because Buffy trusted him absolutely, even after Helpless. But he left when she needed him. I honestly think he was right to leave. Buffy needed to recognize that her responsibilities were her responsibilities even if they sucked . She did grow up, and by the time he returned she didn't need him as a watcher Giles on the other hand, had just gone through one helluva trauma. The destruction of the Council building must have cost him friends. It was a place he had spent years in and it was gone. Then he had to collect potentials and keep them safe, getting them to Buffy. He knows what he wants his slayer to do.

                  But Buffy isn't his slayer anymore, and she thinks she gets to make the decisions. Quite frankly, the battleground is Spike. Giles wants Spike gone for a lot of reasons - Buffy wants him there for a lot of reasons. That murder attempt was purely a power move. Giles took Buffy out on a fake training mission and lectured her about how she had to makes hard decisions (kill Spike) while he was taking the power of decision away from her (killing Spike). He had another lecture planned for after the murder but Buffy stopped him on that one. This was not supposed to be just a killing, it was also an important lesson for Buffy on who had the power. Giles wanted Buffy to know that he's had Spike killed because she wouldn't do it.

                  Also about Buffy treating him as equal for the first time. Firstly I actually think that their relations were that of equals before that, he had mostly role of adviser, not her superior. But anyway, even if we could argue about that, she clearly didn't treat him as equal at that moment. In fact when he said that they aren't together on that she literally demanded that him and others fall in line with her. It was her exact words to him "That's why you have to fall in line". I wouldn't blame him if he was upset about this line.
                  Pretty much the last time Giles saw Buffy she was begging him to stay and take care of her. That is not a position of equals. They've been buddies, but Buffy has never felt herself to be his equal before.

                  GILES: Buffy, we all understand the severity of the situation, but there must be another way.
                  BUFFY: (harshly) No. We stay, we die. Show of hands for that option....All right. Nobody goes home, nobody tells anybody we're leaving. Just pack up whatever supplies we need and that's it, we're gone.


                  That's season five, and Buffy was making demands. It's something that she has always done. Once again, where are Giles, Willow and Xander? They know how to deal with her sort of mania, to get her to calm down and start thinking. That's how these characters work. They understand each other. I don't expect them to agree with her or comply with her. I do expect them at least try to defuse this situation.

                  As for "she won't do what they think should be done", the very problem in that scene was that it was them, all of them, who didn't want to do what she want. And they didn't even refuse it completely, they just all were saying that they need more information than that. And in that very moment, she decided to play her slayer card. Which had failed miserably. She brought that mutiny on herself, by being arrogant and ignoring all others.
                  She came to them with a destination, and the rationale behind it. She didn't set a deadline - in fact she said she was open to discussing it and having them help make the plan but this was where they had to go. Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan.

                  Giles, instead of doing his normal job of bringing the scoobies together adds fuel to the fire. He definitely sent Spike, Andrew, Faith and the potentials away so he could have private time with Buffy. When he realized she wasn't going to trust him anymore, he withdrew his support. He twisted the words she said to him in a private conversation, and made the accusation that Buffy had told him she didn't trust anyone in the room. He was instrumental in getting her kicked out.

                  You keep saying Buffy saved them and they saved her. Where was that sentiment now? Like I said, they'd seen Buffy demanding and harsh before. They've all seen each other at their worst. Where was that friendship? Willow's worst nightmare would be to be stuck in this sort of situation, standing alone with everyone tearing you down. Was this because Buffy wouldn't stay and play cards? You keep ignoring this overal question, and you know it's not about compliance. Is this because you need to protect Giles, Xander and Willow? Maybe there was fault all around.


                  Buffy isn't to blame for Chloe's death and nobody's blaming her. But she had shown that she don't care and it was one of the reason why they had lost trust in her. Their main motivation was to stay alive and nobody wants to have leader who doesn't care about their life. As for "no one was forced", yes, no one was forced, but they didn't even replace her as a leader because of that battle, they replaced her, because she insisted on going there again. Against their will. If that isn't "forcing", I don't know what is. And again as leader she's the one who makes decisions and if that looks like a bad decision, then you looks like a bad leader.

                  I've been through more battles with Buffy than you all can ever imagine. She's stopped everything that's ever come up against her. [Buffy and Faith walk in] She's laid down her life -- literally -- to protect the people around her. This girl has died two times, and she's still standing. You're scared? That's smart. You got questions? You should. But you doubt her motives, you think Buffy's all about the kill, then you take the little bus to battle... I've seen her heart, and this time, not literally. And I'm telling you, right now, she cares more about your lives than you will ever know. You gotta trust her. She's earned it.

                  That's how much Xander lost trust in her over the season. That's how much he didn't believe she cared. In fact, I didn't really see either he or Willow having trouble with her this season.

                  The potentials did remove her over the battle because they were panicked after the battle. They were a whole crowd of kids who had been told that this mythical slayer could keep all of them safe. Guess what, she turned out to be human. They went to battle and Buffy couldn't keep them all safe and unharmed despite what Giles had promised them. Reality has hit. What you don't mention is that the First didn't care whether the girls were ready. It wasn't going to sit back and wait until everyone felt alright and ready to go back out there. When there were just the scoobies they understood that. But the potentials had never been through the battles the scoobs had been through together. They knew it was risky out in the world with the bringers. They didn't want to accept that they were also not safe unless they fought back until they won.


                  Potentials would replace her with any slayer, problem wasn't that they liked Faith more than Buffy, problem was that they didn't trust Buffy at all. I already said all I wanted about this Giles' nonsense. As for Xander and Willow , they are her friends, but it doesn't mean that they should comply with her on everything. She couldn't convince them to do what she wanted, so she had tried to force them. She's got what she deserved here. She left them no choice
                  You have a real problem with Buffy don't you? You really want to see her punished.

                  There are always choices. You can convince a bunch of scared kids that slayers are interchangeable. Send them out with a rookie who has never taken any sort of team anywhere. That's the choice that Willow, Xander, and Giles made. Faith didn't do any better than Buffy did.

                  I assume you'll just say the writers wanted to put in all the parts you don't want to look at.
                  Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by bespangled View Post



                    ANYA You really do think you're better than we are. But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us.

                    Not lucky - luckier. As I said, luckier has a value distinction - it's a standard scale that moves in one direction. It's only valid if becoming the slayer is a good thing. Unless you want to make the case that Xander is luckier because he's now blind in one eye.
                    A little more context would be helpful

                    Buffy: "You need someone to lead you."
                    Anya: "And that's automatically you." and then your quote.

                    So, yep, I should agree, she talked about luck in positive sense. But my original thought is still stands. She doesn't talk about what being a slayer does for Buffy's life, she talk specifically about her claims on leadership in the group. And all her words are still true. Buffy did come in to the world with certain advantages. She stronger, faster, has insane innate healing. That's a fact. And it still doesn't make her automatically better than others.



                    What do you mean, Buffy used them as foot soldiers? How the heck was she supposed to protect them if she didn't teach them how to fight back? That war is more theirs than hers at this time. Killing the thousands of potentials in the world would take some time, and others would be born. They came to her for help against the bringers who were killing them. Given that situation I have to say that too many of them are entitled, immature brats. Instead of pitching in and learning how to fight they complain that they just don't feel protected enough. I can see how hard it must be to get one good slayer out of a crowd like that. So I still don't think the kids in the classroom get to choose a new teacher when they don't want to take a test. These kids are learning how to fight back so they can survive.
                    What do I mean? Seriously? Do you understand that my words weren't even about Buffy? It was in answer on your:
                    I don't think the potentials - including Kennedy - should have a say in the matter.
                    They fight, they die, they have the right to say what they think, it's simple as that.



                    I like the sharing of ideas even when I completely disagree. Especially when I completely disagree.

                    Thematically the struggle between Buffy and Giles works, this season being about power. It's about power is stated several times in the first episode, and the season ends with the potentials being empowered. The Council is a fundamentally misogynistic group whose inception was the rape of a young woman chained to a rock. They represents the male power structure, and Giles is part of that structure. That's where the misogyny angle comes from.
                    You surely mean being raped, don't you? Let's get this clear. I had no problem neither with spell, nor with initiation of first slayer when I watched the show first time. I mean, I was raised as a boy in country where all men had to serve in Army for two years, so I consider slayer initiation to be equivalent of draft. Over time, reading others here, I became more critical of that, but still I see it as just unfortunate necessity. I'll accept any opinion on this as valid point of view, but what I'll never agree with is hypocritical double standards. Whether it's empowerment, whether it's rape or anything in between, it's the same deal for both cases. And, no, I don't care what Buffy had said in her speech. She did exactly the same as Shadowmen did, gave power to girls to use them in battle.

                    Giles has always been the power behind the throne because Buffy trusted him absolutely, even after Helpless. But he left when she needed him. I honestly think he was right to leave. Buffy needed to recognize that her responsibilities were her responsibilities even if they sucked . She did grow up, and by the time he returned she didn't need him as a watcher Giles on the other hand, had just gone through one helluva trauma. The destruction of the Council building must have cost him friends. It was a place he had spent years in and it was gone. Then he had to collect potentials and keep them safe, getting them to Buffy. He knows what he wants his slayer to do.
                    I don't. Him leaving her after resurrection was stupidest thing ever. I would even say that Giles as we know would never do that. It was just a plot device to leave her without his support. But as it's too important for the story I should accept it. GiIes left her alone. This fact makes me think that Mayor actually was better father figure for Faith, than Giles for Buffy. I'm serious.

                    He doesn't know anything. He stupidly put all the burden on the shoulders of an young girl. It was unfair to her and also was part of the reason why Buffy became so arrogant.


                    But Buffy isn't his slayer anymore, and she thinks she gets to make the decisions. Quite frankly, the battleground is Spike. Giles wants Spike gone for a lot of reasons - Buffy wants him there for a lot of reasons. That murder attempt was purely a power move. Giles took Buffy out on a fake training mission and lectured her about how she had to makes hard decisions (kill Spike) while he was taking the power of decision away from her (killing Spike). He had another lecture planned for after the murder but Buffy stopped him on that one. This was not supposed to be just a killing, it was also an important lesson for Buffy on who had the power. Giles wanted Buffy to know that he's had Spike killed because she wouldn't do it.
                    Not a lot of reasons, just one. Spike was under control of the First. There's absolutely no need to invent any hidden reasons for that. Murder attempt was absolutely what Giles would do. You should remember that Giles murdered Ben and he also was for murdering Dawn. Why did he do that? Was it also power move? Obviously, not, it wouldn't even make any sense. He just always believed in sacrificing for greater good. That's his main difference from Buffy who would never do that. I respect Giles for who he is, but I love Buffy, because of who she is.

                    Giles was a part of plan to murder a man Buffy was in love with. His speech to her was just in attempt to mitigate consequences. He's not an idiot, he knew exactly that she would never forgive him for that, but he was ready. He was ready to murder Dawn, he murdered Ben and now he did sacrifice his relations with Buffy. All for the greater good.



                    Pretty much the last time Giles saw Buffy she was begging him to stay and take care of her. That is not a position of equals. They've been buddies, but Buffy has never felt herself to be his equal before.
                    She did need him, obviously. It doesn't makes them unequal. She also didn't want to part with Angel, Riley or Spike. Does it make them superior to her too? He was a big part of her life.



                    GILES: Buffy, we all understand the severity of the situation, but there must be another way.
                    BUFFY: (harshly) No. We stay, we die. Show of hands for that option....All right. Nobody goes home, nobody tells anybody we're leaving. Just pack up whatever supplies we need and that's it, we're gone.


                    That's season five, and Buffy was making demands. It's something that she has always done. Once again, where are Giles, Willow and Xander? They know how to deal with her sort of mania, to get her to calm down and start thinking. That's how these characters work. They understand each other. I don't expect them to agree with her or comply with her. I do expect them at least try to defuse this situation.
                    They had agreed with her at that time. They haven't liked what she had proposed, but they didn't have alternative and there was nothing to lose. In this case they could lose everything, so they declined. Then Buffy decided to escalate situation and play her slayer card, she declared that she's leader because of that. And they did rebel against her, starting with Anya speech to her.


                    She came to them with a destination, and the rationale behind it. She didn't set a deadline - in fact she said she was open to discussing it and having them help make the plan but this was where they had to go. Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan.

                    Giles, instead of doing his normal job of bringing the scoobies together adds fuel to the fire. He definitely sent Spike, Andrew, Faith and the potentials away so he could have private time with Buffy. When he realized she wasn't going to trust him anymore, he withdrew his support. He twisted the words she said to him in a private conversation, and made the accusation that Buffy had told him she didn't trust anyone in the room. He was instrumental in getting her kicked out.
                    She said that's the plan, they disagreed on that. What's the point to discuss anything relating to plan they all thought was suicide?

                    You keep saying Buffy saved them and they saved her. Where was that sentiment now? Like I said, they'd seen Buffy demanding and harsh before. They've all seen each other at their worst. Where was that friendship? Willow's worst nightmare would be to be stuck in this sort of situation, standing alone with everyone tearing you down. Was this because Buffy wouldn't stay and play cards? You keep ignoring this overal question, and you know it's not about compliance. Is this because you need to protect Giles, Xander and Willow? Maybe there was fault all around.
                    Just to remind you that it wasn't one way street. You did write this:
                    "It infuriates me the way people she has saved, supposed friends and family, don't care enough to kick out the potentials and Wood, and Anya and sit down to talk.
                    But it works other way around too. Instead of being arrogant and dismissive to all others, including Xander and Willow, she probably should listen to them and not just say that she's in charge so it'd be only as she want? I mean she's left exactly two choices to them, do what she wants or replace her. They have chosen option two. As they should.


                    I've been through more battles with Buffy than you all can ever imagine. She's stopped everything that's ever come up against her. [Buffy and Faith walk in] She's laid down her life -- literally -- to protect the people around her. This girl has died two times, and she's still standing. You're scared? That's smart. You got questions? You should. But you doubt her motives, you think Buffy's all about the kill, then you take the little bus to battle... I've seen her heart, and this time, not literally. And I'm telling you, right now, she cares more about your lives than you will ever know. You gotta trust her. She's earned it.

                    That's how much Xander lost trust in her over the season. That's how much he didn't believe she cared. In fact, I didn't really see either he or Willow having trouble with her this season.
                    It's very easy to lost trust of people who's opinion you ignore and dismiss. Buffy had changed over season and not all changes were positive.

                    The potentials did remove her over the battle because they were panicked after the battle. They were a whole crowd of kids who had been told that this mythical slayer could keep all of them safe. Guess what, she turned out to be human. They went to battle and Buffy couldn't keep them all safe and unharmed despite what Giles had promised them. Reality has hit. What you don't mention is that the First didn't care whether the girls were ready. It wasn't going to sit back and wait until everyone felt alright and ready to go back out there. When there were just the scoobies they understood that. But the potentials had never been through the battles the scoobs had been through together. They knew it was risky out in the world with the bringers. They didn't want to accept that they were also not safe unless they fought back until they won.
                    We are starting to make laps here. I've already had given my opinion on that 2 post ago. I repeat one more time, they lost trust in her mainly because of three reasons. 1) She's reckless (Spike'strigger), 2) She doesn't care about their life (Speech on Chloe's death), 3) She's a bad leader (she wanted to repeat attack that already lead to deaths).

                    That's why they replaced her. And they were ready to fight, they just didn't want that Buffy was the one who leads them in battle.


                    You have a real problem with Buffy don't you? You really want to see her punished.

                    There are always choices. You can convince a bunch of scared kids that slayers are interchangeable. Send them out with a rookie who has never taken any sort of team anywhere. That's the choice that Willow, Xander, and Giles made. Faith didn't do any better than Buffy did.

                    I assume you'll just say the writers wanted to put in all the parts you don't want to look at.
                    I did. I had admitted it so much already. I haven't liked how Buffy was arrogant, reckless and dismissive through all of that. I was completely agree with Anya on everything in that scene. Buffy had needed it for herself also. She had to understand that she's not the center of universe. Her being a slayer, a chosen one, started to seriously cloud her judgement (there was hints on that even in her conversation with Holden). She wasn't alone in all that and she hadn't to be acting as she is. In the end she did understand that. Herself, Willow, poten..., no, other Slayers, her friends and Spike, all they were needed for success in that battle.

                    As for Faith wasn't any better that Buffy... I don't care about Faith, never did, never will. Nothing that I had said in this conversation has anything to do with Faith. In fact in my last post I already said that Faith wasn't her problem, Buffy herself was.
                    Last edited by Alce; 07-02-20, 01:36 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Alce View Post
                      You surely mean being raped, don't you? Let's get this clear. I had no problem neither with spell, nor with initiation of first slayer when I watched the show first time. I mean, I was raised as a boy in country where all men had to serve in Army for two years, so I consider slayer initiation to be equivalent of draft. Over time, reading others here, I became more critical of that, but still I see it as just unfortunate necessity. I'll accept any opinion on this as valid point of view, but what I'll never agree with is hypocritical double standards. Whether it's empowerment, whether it's rape or anything in between, it's the same deal for both cases. And, no, I don't care what Buffy had said in her speech. She did exactly the same as Shadowmen did, gave power to girls to use them in battle.
                      In my opinion, the two situations are quite different for several reasons.

                      For a start, Buffy was acting to an existing and present threat that was targeting the Slayer line specifically. The Potentials were being hunted across the world which placed a target on their back regardless of whether they were imbued with the Slayer power or not. By giving them power Buffy was not enlisting them in a war to use them in battle. The girls were already in the middle of a war and were being attacked regardless. The Slayer power didn't put them under any further danger that they weren't already in, but it did give them the ability to protect themselves from forces seeking to wipe them out.

                      Secondly, the spells aren't really the same. The Shadowmen plucked a completely ordinary girl and forced a demon essence inside of her. She had no pre-existing "destiny" that made the demon essence pick her. On the other hand, Buffy awakened a "potential" already residing in these girls. They had been identified as "Potential Slayers" who could be the next Slayer and were therefore already different from a regular girl. In Potential Buffy even states that in their pre-Slayer states that they still have "abilities other girls do not have" and this is shown later in the episode when Amanda dusts a vampire on pure adrenaline and instinct. In Chosen Willow's spell appears very different from the Shadowmen ritual which is a testament to this. We saw no demon essence float into all these girls. The scythe glows white and girls all around the world seemingly feel something awaken inside of them. That's the clearest indication to me that the Empowerment Spell simply awoke the, um, potential, in the Potentials, which is not the same as picking a girl at random and forcing a demon essence inside of her.

                      Thirdly, Buffy did at least give all of the Potentials she could a "choice." Granted, a lot of Potentials around the globe were not given that choice but Buffy did the best she could by presenting the option to all the representative of the Potentials that she did have. Throughout history you'd be lucky to find any movements that were made with the complete and unanimous backing off the demographic it will ultimately effect. For instance, there were women who voted against giving themselves the right to vote but the majority opinion won out in the end and those women were given that right whether they wanted it or not. It wasn't possible for Buffy to ask every Potential in the world but she did ask the ones in front of her to "make a choice" and, presumably, they did.

                      I do understand why people have issues with the Empowerment Spell. I don't want to downplay those issues because I do think they're a valid POV to have and even as someone who supports the decision I can recognise it would have some negative consequences down the line. But I do disagree that it's "exactly the same" as what the Shadowmen did because I don't think that's true at all. Not factually (as I said the spell appears to be blatantly different) and not ethically, either.

                      "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by vampmogs View Post

                        In my opinion, the two situations are quite different for several reasons.

                        For a start, Buffy was acting to an existing and present threat that was targeting the Slayer line specifically. The Potentials were being hunted across the world which placed a target on their back regardless of whether they were imbued with the Slayer power or not. By giving them power Buffy was not enlisting them in a war to use them in battle. The girls were already in the middle of a war and were being attacked regardless. The Slayer power didn't put them under any further danger that they weren't already in, but it did give them the ability to protect themselves from forces seeking to wipe them out.
                        Didn't it though? If only thing that slayer power does is to give you a speed, strength and toughness, then what would be even a problem? You would say, oh, lucky girl and that would be it. And yet we have a discussion about how unlucky it's for Buffy to be a slayer. And even I, who are completely agree with Anya in case of specific question of leadership in the group, don't use that argument in general sense. Because apparently there's more than that in these spells. No slayer could just retire, even if there are opportunities for that as in Nikki's case. Something in this spell changes your mentality, makes you a fighter who seeks danger. So, no, I would disagree with that, this spell definitely made life of these girls more dangerous. Also, do we know why it was necessary to make First Slayer? Did they do that for their amusement or it was necessary for their survival at that time? You can have any opinion on those guys, but they definitely took their duties seriously. Even thousands of years after their death, their spirits were still around, waiting for next slayer.

                        Secondly, the spells aren't really the same. The Shadowmen plucked a completely ordinary girl and forced a demon essence inside of her. She had no pre-existing "destiny" that made the demon essence pick her. On the other hand, Buffy awakened a "potential" already residing in these girls. They had been identified as "Potential Slayers" who could be the next Slayer and were therefore already different from a regular girl. In Potential Buffy even states that in their pre-Slayer states that they still have "abilities other girls do not have" and this is shown later in the episode when Amanda dusts a vampire on pure adrenaline and instinct. In Chosen Willow's spell appears very different from the Shadowmen ritual which is a testament to this. We saw no demon essence float into all these girls. The scythe glows white and girls all around the world seemingly feel something awaken inside of them. That's the clearest indication to me that the Empowerment Spell simply awoke the, um, potential, in the Potentials, which is not the same as picking a girl at random and forcing a demon essence inside of her.
                        I have my doubt about first slayer to be just ordinary girl, but even if she was, does it makes a big difference? According to comics a spell had awakened thousands of slayers through all the world, which is probably more that there was slayers in history before that (even if we assume an average life of a slayer as little as one or two years). Even if we ignore comics it's still at least hundreds of slayers. Hundreds of girls who could spend their life as ordinary girls if not for Willow and Buffy. I don't blame Willow and Buffy here, they did what they had to do, but I just fail to see a significant difference between that and what Shadowmen did. Both spell had changed lives of thousands of girls. Shadowmen just did it throughout thousands of years and Willow did it instantly.

                        Thirdly, Buffy did at least give all of the Potentials she could a "choice." Granted, a lot of Potentials around the globe were not given that choice but Buffy did the best she could by presenting the option to all the representative of the Potentials that she did have. Throughout history you'd be lucky to find any movements that were made with the complete and unanimous backing off the demographic it will ultimately effect. For instance, there were women who voted against giving themselves the right to vote but the majority opinion won out in the end and those women were given that right whether they wanted it or not. It wasn't possible for Buffy to ask every Potential in the world but she did ask the ones in front of her to "make a choice" and, presumably, they did.
                        What kind of choice it was? If spell isn't directional, but affect all potentials in the world, is it really a choice? I don't think that. There was no real choice at all here. At least for potentials.

                        I do understand why people have issues with the Empowerment Spell. I don't want to downplay those issues because I do think they're a valid POV to have and even as someone who supports the decision I can recognise it would have some negative consequences down the line. But I do disagree that it's "exactly the same" as what the Shadowmen did because I don't think that's true at all. Not factually (as I said the spell appears to be blatantly different) and not ethically, either.
                        As I said I also accept any opinion on that. I understand why they did it. It's like murder of Ben, I admire Buffy who wouldn't do it, but I understand why Giles had to do that. I don't see it neither as rape nor as empowerment. It just something that has to be done for survival. Unfortunate, but necessary. For both cases.
                        Last edited by Alce; 08-02-20, 10:09 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Alce View Post
                          Didn't it though?
                          Well not really, no. Because, as I said above, the Potentials were literally being hunted down all over the world and slaughtered by Bringers. They were already facing impending death so how could they be any worse off with their Slayer powers then that? Even if you wanted to argue that being a Slayer puts another target on their back the fact of the matter is they had a target on their back already but at least after the Empowerment Spell they had the power to defend themselves.

                          If only thing that slayer power does is to give you a speed, strength and toughness, then what would be even a problem? You would say, oh, lucky girl and that would be it. And yet we have a discussion about how unlucky it's for Buffy to be a slayer.
                          Buffy gave these girls power. Buffy did not burden these girls with the weight of the world on their shoulders and the sole responsibility of being the "Chosen One." By activating hundreds of Slayers Buffy redefined what it even means to be a Slayer and girls were no longer forced to carry that burden alone or even carry that burden at all if they didn't want to. Faith says this exact thing to Buffy herself at the edge of the crater - "You're not the one and only chosen anymore. Just gotta live like a person. How does that feel?"

                          None of these girls will ever have to know what it's like to be THE Slayer. It isn't "one girl in all the world" anymore. There's literally hundreds, if not thousands, of Slayers globally. Unlike previously where a Slayer felt obligated to protect the world because she alone stood between it and it's total destruction, that responsibility can now be shared by many and those who don't wish it for themselves can go on knowing there's other girls out there still battling evil.

                          Because apparently there's more than that in these spells. No slayer could just retire, even if there are opportunities for that as in Nikki's case. Something in this spell changes your mentality, makes you a fighter who seeks danger.
                          It's an interesting theory but it's also just your fanon. We have no way of knowing if the spell/power itself changes the Slayer mentally or if it's the emotional toll of having to fight for their lives, witness horrific evil, and kill things with their bare hands on a nightly basis, that ultimately changes them mentally. I'd lean more towards the latter than the former myself.

                          So, no, I would disagree with that, this spell definitely made life of these girls more dangerous.
                          Again, I just can't fathom how things could be any MORE dangerous for them than they already were when all the Potentials in the world were literally being hunted down and murdered. If Buffy hand't empowered them then they'd have continued to be slaughtered and picked off one by one.

                          Also, do we know why it was necessary to make First Slayer? Did they do that for their amusement or it was necessary for their survival at that time? You can have any opinion on those guys, but they definitely took their duties seriously. Even thousands of years after their death, their spirits were still around, waiting for next slayer.
                          I think the Slayer is absolutely necessary (it would defeat the purpose of the show otherwise) but I think it's a hard sell to argue that chaining up a poor girl and forcing a demon essence inside of her was necessary. Why didn't the Shadowmen do it to themselves instead? Because women were seen as disposable, I imagine.

                          I have my doubt about first slayer to be just ordinary girl, but even if she was, does it makes a big difference? According to comics a spell had awakened thousands of slayers through all the world, which is probably more that there was slayers in history before that (even if we assume an average life of a slayer as little as one or two years). Even if we ignore comics it's still at least hundreds of slayers. Hundreds of girls who could spend their life as ordinary girls if not for Willow and Buffy. I don't blame Willow and Buffy here, they did what they had to do, but I just fail to see a significant difference between that and what Shadowmen did. Both spell had changed lives of thousands of girls. Shadowmen just did it throughout thousands of years and Willow did it instantly.
                          But they couldn't continue leading ordinary lives because The First evil was locating them and killing them off all around the world! Like, they were being hunted down and murdered on by one. They were all on borrowed time. And as I said, the Empowerment Spell does not mean that a Slayer has to fight evil. I don't consider the comics canon but even Buffy herself says in the very first issue of S8 that there's over 2000 Slayers identified throughout the world but only 500 of them are working for her. Presumably, that means the other 1500 have either respectfully declined to work for her and are either a) choosing to fight evil alone or, b) were choosing to lead a normal life instead. So even if I were to take the comics as canon I don't think the spell meant what you think it means. And I can't see why that would be any different when I imagine a world post-Chosen when I ignore the comics.


                          What kind of choice it was? If spell isn't directional, but affect all potentials in the world, is it really a choice? I don't think that. There was no real choice at all here. At least for potentials.
                          Well as I said, when it comes to progress people often have to make choices/votes on behalf of a whole group of people. There's people who have specifically tried to deny themselves rights that were then afforded to them against their will because others out voted them. It's not perfect, but it works for me.
                          "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

                          Comment


                          • You probably right, there are some differences in situations here, so they aren't completely the same. Although I still don't think that those differences are big enough to call one thing a rape and other empowerment. It's still in the core an act of giving power to girls to fight evil. We can justify it as necessary, but that's would be it. And if we know why it should be done in case of Willow's spell, we don't have enough context for the case of First Slayer to make deeper comparison.

                            Couple moments though.

                            Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                            Why didn't the Shadowmen do it to themselves instead? Because women were seen as disposable, I imagine.
                            I don't know why they didn't give power to themselves, but I suspect that the spell wouldn't work on men. As for "disposable women" where did this even come from? You can say many things that were wrong about treating women in different times and in different cultures, but this never was one of them. Men were always disposable gender, "cannon fodder", not woman. I think that if shadowmen had the choice they would give the power to one of the warriors.


                            Well as I said, when it comes to progress people often have to make choices/votes on behalf of a whole group of people. There's people who have specifically tried to deny themselves rights that were then afforded to them against their will because others out voted them. It's not perfect, but it works for me.
                            I'm not convinced. That could be used to excuse too many things. Including initiation of the first Slayer. They did make the choice for others, because they wanted to survive. There's nothing more to that. To call this " progress"..., no, just no.
                            Last edited by Alce; 11-02-20, 10:58 PM.

                            Comment


                            • One thing I think could be said in favour of the empowerment spell, which I am still a bit uncertain of to be honest, is that it removes the restriction on the single slayer which presumably was a part of the original spell. It all depends on how much we are willing to see the potential that some women are born with to be a slayer as a natural part of who they are. Is it genetically theirs but restricted and held back by the original spell? That slayers are perhaps a separate genetic line in humans (or however the correct terms would describe it). Even though it was originated by a spell, does it now exist in its own right? There doesn't seem any reason to restrict the power to a single woman at a time other than to try to control them as a tool. As the shadowmen seem to be the start of the watcher's council I think believing there was an element of wanting the slayer to be their asset and that this played into why there could be only one slayer at a time makes some sense. Looked at this way the empowerment spell tore away the control that a group of men had placed on the power a group of women held within them. It stopped that power being suppressed until, when/if, the council required another warrior to be called and allowed the woman to benefit from her own strength and also choose for herself how to use it.

                              I'm still not completely comfortable with the empowerment spell but I think that Mogs' point that those women were being targeted to be killed for the potential within them is a great reason to allow them the ability to fight with that power to save themselves. If I also see the power as inherently theirs, held back by the men that started the slayer line but a natural power within them that has been contained, then it is again a better thing that they have the option of all that it offers as well as the danger that it brings.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X