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  • #76
    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
    I watched Awakening again the other day and I think more is often made of Angel saying Buffy's name than it may have meant.
    I think your interpretation is logical and as plausible as any other. However, I also think the writers weren't naive enough to believe that in the height of fandom they could name drop Buffy like that and not cause a huge ruckus. Basically, they're trolls

    It's funny, though. This discussion has reminded me what a hot contentious topic this used to be back in my earlier days of fandom and nowadays you don't see it mentioned at all. I think this is the first time I've seen it discussed in years. It makes me wonder what other topics have been buried over the last few years that I've forgotten about

    HardlyThere, in The Wish it is stated that smashing Anya's amulet will "reverse all the wishes she's granted" which clearly doesn't pan out. I do think it more or less reversed Cordy's wish though as, IMO, Anya never actually created the wishverse but instead transported Cordy to a AU. That's more fitting with Anya being toted as an alternate dimension expert in Superstar and Blood Ties and the Wishverse still existing despite Cordy's death being reversed.

    They remember the amulet/pendant up until Older and Far Away (they try to grab Halfrek's to save themselves from her curse). At the very least it should have been discussed as a possibility to neuter Anya when Buffy and Xander were fighting over Buffy having to slay her.

    I agree that the supernatural strength is annoyingly inconsistent. But to be fair, it's actually Two to Go and Grave that f*ck up in that respect. Anya had supernatural strength in The Wish too ("I'm not afraid of you. Your only power lies in the wishing" *Anya grabs Giles by the throat and throws him up against the wall* "Wrong!") so S7 is consistent with her original appearance. I really wish they'd been more consistent. Whenever she's screaming for help against Willow it always takes me out of the scene
    - "The earth is doomed" -

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
      I think your interpretation is logical and as plausible as any other. However, I also think the writers weren't naive enough to believe that in the height of fandom they could name drop Buffy like that and not cause a huge ruckus. Basically, they're trolls
      I think they did it in part perhaps also to clearly flag what was happening, so that the audience would definitely make the connection like they did in the fake out after Angel slept with Darla in mirroring the soul loss moment from BtVS. But yeah, also to troll the fans.

      It's funny, though. This discussion has reminded me what a hot contentious topic this used to be back in my earlier days of fandom and nowadays you don't see it mentioned at all. I think this is the first time I've seen it discussed in years. It makes me wonder what other topics have been buried over the last few years that I've forgotten about
      Having missed being a part of fandom when the show aired most topics are new to me, so if you think of any other past contentious topics it would be interesting to hear what they were.

      Comment


      • #78
        Similarly, the amulet makes Spike "look like Elizabeth Taylor". He's feminised...at the same time Willow draws on the power of "The White Goddess"
        Oh lord, imo Spike's character was 'feminized' long before he stuck a bit of over the top bling around his neck. As the seasons went on he played more and more a role traditionally aimed at female characters in TV. The 'other half', the 'dirty little secret' the 'abused ex'. I had no issues with that by the way but I think It's worth pointing out.

        Comment


        • #79
          It was Anya that mentioned the amulet. It's possible the Scoobs don't actually know anything about it. Only Anya remembers The Wish. I think this is also an explanation why they don't take Anya's past all that seriously when she's human. They witnessed none of it.

          I don't recall ever seeing the shooting script for Awakening...

          Someone asked Fury about it way back when. He said he didn't remember it, suggesting it was a Joss rewrite.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
            Oh lord, imo Spike's character was 'feminized' long before he stuck a bit of over the top bling around his neck. As the seasons went on he played more and more a role traditionally aimed at female characters in TV. The 'other half', the 'dirty little secret' the 'abused ex'. I had no issues with that by the way but I think It's worth pointing out.
            LOL! I agree...I only used the "Elizabeth Taylor" quote because it's from Chosen. I think that's precisely Spike's role. I don't think it's coincidence he figures more in Buffy's life after Joyce dies...
            sigpic

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            • #81
              Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
              I don't recall ever seeing the shooting script for Awakening...

              Someone asked Fury about it way back when. He said he didn't remember it, suggesting it was a Joss rewrite.
              Me neither. I don't think I've ever seen shooting scripts for AtS, I should have said transcript rather than abbreviating it which could have been misleading. The transcript has Angel saying Buffy's name as a question and I think that was a fair interpretation of the way he says it from my watch the other day. If it isn't a question it is faint and still works with that sense of the connection of events and the spell pulling him back into reality as his soul is going creates the association to the previous time and prompts her name, rather than him having been imagining Buffy in order to lose his soul because she wasn't who he literally was imagining, we saw that was Cordelia. It's all subjective though of course.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                So who's to say he couldn't sleep with Buffy? For one thing, knowing that he could very well lose his soul, and the anxiety and weariness that would bring, IMO, would rule out Angel ever achieving true "perfect" happiness in that moment again. .
                But wouldn't that render the entire Buffy/Angel arc entirely pointless ? I think that would undercut and diminish way too much of their story if it went that way.

                Stoney I think Angel "is a constant presence"(which I would argue with) in the Buffy/Spike affair only in so far as he pretty much scarred Buffy for life. Every relationship she's had after Angel has his shadow looming over them because his relationship with her utterly traumatised her and changed the way she handles romantic relationship forever. Don't think that makes it a triangle though.

                Now to get back on topic, I find Anya's anger towards Buffy incredibly irritating and jarring. I want to say, somewhat similar to the way Cordelia blamed Buffy for what happened between her and Xander in the Wish, only even less comprehensible. If anything, it only highlights how much more of a free pass she had had over the seasons compared to other morally ambiguous characters (mainly Spike).
                What a challenge, honesty
                What a struggle to learn to speak
                Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                  Stoney I think Angel "is a constant presence"(which I would argue with) in the Buffy/Spike affair only in so far as he pretty much scarred Buffy for life. Every relationship she's had after Angel has his shadow looming over them because his relationship with her utterly traumatised her and changed the way she handles romantic relationship forever. Don't think that makes it a triangle though.
                  Buffy's relationship with Angel, how she views it and 'them' is always informing her subsequent relationships. How she views other people and potential in relationships that follow. Spike's insecurities and compare/contrast against Angel inform his views of who he is and who he could be and what Buffy might want of him too (hence the soul). So whilst I was acknowledging that it wasn't a literal triangle until it became one in S7 when Angel was physically present and aware of Buffy and Spike's relationship, I don't feel that it was a triangle that was created out of thin air as some people do because Angel had a significant presence in the minds of both Buffy and Spike in ways that affected choices they made and how they responded to each other repeatedly before. The direct references to him, to Buffy's relationship with him, and to compare him against Spike that are made through S5-7 illustrate this. In this way I'm arguing that they expanded on what was already established rather than created something with no scaffolding to it that was already very much there to back it up.

                  Now to get back on topic, I find Anya's anger towards Buffy incredibly irritating and jarring. I want to say, somewhat similar to the way Cordelia blamed Buffy for what happened between her and Xander in the Wish, only even less comprehensible. If anything, it only highlights how much more of a free pass she had had over the seasons compared to other morally ambiguous characters (mainly Spike).
                  Anya was given a clean slate with the gang when she became human in a way that was certainly questionable as she showed no remorse towards the vengeance she enacted for centuries. Not until she had led a human life for a time and made connections, created a life, which she then lost when she returned to being a vengeance demon. Her path has always seemed more like Faith's to me because she made the negative choices she took without the souled/unsouled distinction playing a key part as it does with vampires. This is why her redemption has to come from her choosing to take a different route. But, like Faith, there is a lot of hangups about how she is treated by others and how much easier other people have it that generates a good deal of resentment. I think Faith had moved further beyond this than Anya possibly managed before she sacrificed herself. But that element of criticising Buffy for feeling/being superior is true to them both.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                    Buffy's relationship with Angel, how she views it and 'them' is always informing her subsequent relationships. How she views other people and potential in relationships that follow. Spike's insecurities and compare/contrast against Angel inform his views of who he is and who he could be and what Buffy might want of him too (hence the soul). So whilst I was acknowledging that it wasn't a literal triangle until it became one in S7 when Angel was physically present and aware of Buffy and Spike's relationship, I don't feel that it was a triangle that was created out of thin air as some people do because Angel had a significant presence in the minds of both Buffy and Spike in ways that affected choices they made and how they responded to each other repeatedly before. The direct references to him, to Buffy's relationship with him, and to compare him against Spike that are made through S5-7 illustrate this. In this way I'm arguing that they expanded on what was already established rather than created something with no scaffolding to it that was already very much there to back it up.
                    I assumed you meant he was a "conscious" presence on either Buffy's or Spike's end (as in, Angel was constantly present in their minds), and I assumed you meant in a straight forward, romantic fashion (on Buffy's end, though bespangeled might give us an argument for Spike ).


                    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                    Anya was given a clean slate with the gang when she became human in a way that was certainly questionable as she showed no remorse towards the vengeance she enacted for centuries. Not until she had led a human life for a time and made connections, created a life, which she then lost when she returned to being a vengeance demon. Her path has always seemed more like Faith's to me because she made the negative choices she took without the souled/unsouled distinction playing a key part as it does with vampires. This is why her redemption has to come from her choosing to take a different route. But, like Faith, there is a lot of hangups about how she is treated by others and how much easier other people have it that generates a good deal of resentment. I think Faith had moved further beyond this than Anya possibly managed before she sacrificed herself. But that element of criticising Buffy for feeling/being superior is true to them both.
                    I agree that it's something they tried to commit to in S7 (and here and there beforehand), but unfortunately it was too little too late. It's hard to make up for several seasons of presenting human Anya and demon Anya as essentially the same person and her showing no remorse whatsoever for her past deeds. Faith's antagonism to Buffy works because it was better set up and written, and there is a genuine sense of unfairness when comparing Faith's life to Buffy's (from Faith's POV); with Anya though ? Not so much. Buffy was never her foil nor a particularly important character in her story.
                    What a challenge, honesty
                    What a struggle to learn to speak
                    Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                      I agree that it's something they tried to commit to in S7 (and here and there beforehand), but unfortunately it was too little too late. It's hard to make up for several seasons of presenting human Anya and demon Anya as essentially the same person and her showing no remorse whatsoever for her past deeds. Faith's antagonism to Buffy works because it was better set up and written, and there is a genuine sense of unfairness when comparing Faith's life to Buffy's (from Faith's POV); with Anya though ? Not so much. Buffy was never her foil nor a particularly important character in her story.
                      Still don't see where the idea is coming from that Anya was resentful of her or her life pre-S7 or even in S7. The only time it's brought up is Anya considered her a hypocrite in Never Leave Me. Her view is not different than a comment Andrew makes, which Buffy shoots down by saying he had free will (so did Anya) vs being mind-controlled.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                        Still don't see where the idea is coming from that Anya was resentful of her or her life pre-S7 or even in S7. The only time it's brought up is Anya considered her a hypocrite in Never Leave Me. Her view is not different than a comment Andrew makes, which Buffy shoots down by saying he had free will (so did Anya) vs being mind-controlled.
                        That's what I was trying to say in so many words, yes
                        I think they wanted someone who was critical of Buffy but not too emotionally involved and they picked Anya because it was something to do for her.
                        What a challenge, honesty
                        What a struggle to learn to speak
                        Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                          I assumed you meant he was a "conscious" presence on either Buffy's or Spike's end (as in, Angel was constantly present in their minds), and I assumed you meant in a straight forward, romantic fashion (on Buffy's end
                          No a great deal of it is purely unconscious but it does result in fairly regular direct references or comments that show another contrast is being made, that he lurks in the backgrounds in different ways for them both. Not one season goes by without it. So yeah, it doesn't feel out of nothing that a triangle is played in S7 when he literally appears to me.

                          I agree that it's something they tried to commit to in S7 (and here and there beforehand), but unfortunately it was too little too late. It's hard to make up for several seasons of presenting human Anya and demon Anya as essentially the same person and her showing no remorse whatsoever for her past deeds. Faith's antagonism to Buffy works because it was better set up and written, and there is a genuine sense of unfairness when comparing Faith's life to Buffy's (from Faith's POV); with Anya though ? Not so much. Buffy was never her foil nor a particularly important character in her story.
                          I don't think it is anywhere near as direct and specific to Buffy with Anya as it was with Faith though. Whether Xander still held a flame for Buffy and Anya feeling like an outsider were constant issues in her relationships with the group. But it wasn't Buffy specific in the way her resentment comes across in what she says to Buffy in S7. That her current situation and lack of direction may be making her more bitter and inclined to lash out could be true. The suggested resentment, although unfair, of what happened to Hallie. But I think the years that Anya had lived a different life and integrated with the group is why her decision to change her path works like Faith's did. But that doesn't mean that it has to be smooth thereafter, particularly if she is feeling somewhat adrift. A lot of what we saw her go through in her relationship with Xander was about feeling like there should be set markers that she achieves in life as a human. At the end of Selfless she decides to just be herself and that perhaps just doesn't go easily.

                          Yet another thing for me to try to remember to look more closely at and consider when the rewatch gets there. I think I'm pretty near to 'look at it all/everyone more closely'.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                            That's what I was trying to say in so many words, yes
                            I think they wanted someone who was critical of Buffy but not too emotionally involved and they picked Anya because it was something to do for her.
                            But that would require her having a point. She doesn't. Anya is a very, very self-centered person so it makes some sense for her to have that view, but it's not, like, exposition. It's just set'em-up/knock'em down writing. Anya was always used for that. Sometimes Cordy was, too. Spike as well.

                            The problem you run into is, for some really bizarre reason, people agree with those characters no matter how bizarre their view is. Maybe because they are blunt so they think it's truth. But that's not really failed writing so much as the audience disavowing the story told, a major problem with 5-7 and latter seasons of shows in general. Numerous times in S7 characters present false versions, false equivalences and the like. The First uses one to tempt Andrew in First Date, claiming he's the only one who has to atone in a house filled with killers...but Andrew isn't atoning any more than anyone else is. Yet I've seen meta claiming The First has a point there. It's weird.

                            Anyway, I don't think the writing failed in that respect. You can't tell someone something they don't want to hear.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                              I think Buffy is more significant to Spike than just as a trophy to prove himself against Angel and that it's really reducing how he feels about her to overly focus on that aspect. I don't think he spends so many years with her without Angel present with the main focus being to try to best Angel's relationship with her. Spike was driven by wanting to be loved and be accepted in a relationship long before he ever met Angel. So as much as his relationship with Angel is clearly relevant and can constantly affect how he feels within the relationship, it is just a background factor, not the driving force. There's no doubt that, particularly in AtS 5, Spike's relationship with Buffy and feelings about her is on the surface level reduced like that, but that's greatly because without Buffy there it is all about Angel's and Spike's jealousies and insecurities, both of their competitiveness towards the other. In truth it is much more than that, but of course that is the focus their different relationships with Buffy generates when they are facing off, so to speak. I totally agree that Spike was hung up on how he compared to Angel way before Buffy was around, but I don't think that affects my point. I was raising a couple of times other than just the mention of Angel in Crush that showed the constantly significant factor and presence of Angel in Spike's mind during his relationship with Buffy before his reappearance in S7. The time in BY you raised from S7 would count as well. Angel and his relationship with Buffy is shown to have a meaningful influence and presence to both Spike and Buffy during their relationship and these other times he's raised I believe supports the background presence in their minds. That the two vampires will most likely outlive Buffy and continue to spend time together wasn't relevant to the point being raised. Ha, or either to the original point of the thread I suppose, so we probably shouldn't continue to derail it.
                              Completely agree. Dru lifted him out of mediocrity. Buffy literally lifted him out of evil. She showed him he had choice, and he took a huge leap because of her. I think he loves her more than anyone he has ever known. But I think there is a familiarity to that feeling - a familiarity to having Angel lay claim to whatever Spike cared about.

                              You can take what you want, have what you want, but nothing is yours....if Angelus can take it away.

                              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                              Smile Time put to rest the notion that Angel is unable to have a sexual relationship with someone. Wesley tells Angel that the likelihood of him achieving personal happiness again, considering how so few many people do, is really slim, and that he should date Nina. Then in Power Play Angel and Nina have just slept together and Angel's soul is intact. Granted, Nina jokingly states that she has a stake nearby just in case and she specifically asks him if he's "thinking of her little roman friend" (aka Buffy) but it's entirely possible for Angel to sleep with someone and keep his soul.

                              He also slept with Eve in Life of the Party.
                              True. We were discussing the conversation in Chosen, and Angel hadn't slept with anyone at that time. So making a play for Buffy didn't make sense if we were sticking to the canon.

                              Much as I can't stand the world breaking, I gotta admit I do find Angel kind of adorable.

                              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                              So who's to say he couldn't sleep with Buffy? For one thing, knowing that he could very well lose his soul, and the anxiety and weariness that would bring, IMO, would rule out Angel ever achieving true "perfect" happiness in that moment again. Further, Angel's life was much less complicated in BtVS S2 and his happiness/salvation was All. About. Buffy and how "she made him feel like a human being." She accepted and loved him and that's literally all that mattered to him in the world at that point in time. Whereas, Angel now has his own mission and ties to the world besides Buffy (his friends, his son) and for him to truly achieve "perfect" happiness they'd need to be considered too. Long Day's Journey proved that when it wasn't just the Angel/Cordy sex that robbed Angel of his soul. The fantasy first had to have Angel mend his relationship with both Wesley and Connor, have Angel defeat The Beast and bring back the sun, and have Cordelia (and mutter "Buffy" which is open to interpretation).
                              That's always been my objection to the canon that they couldn't risk sexual intimacy. Angel knows what can happen now and he's not gonna relax. However the canon reason why he left was that he and Buffy can't have a real relationship because of the personal happiness clause. You can't make this a key to their dysfunction and then hand wave it away.
                              Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Very interesting thread. I definitely think Anya was just being bitter during her speech in "Empty Places". Her words on their own might be worth contemplating, but she was just so damn salty and rude in her attitude towards Buffy in that scene (and throughout the season) that I can't really take her all that seriously. In regards to her dynamic with Buffy, the two of them were never friends. They had, like, three one-on-one conversations over the course of four years. That's not a friendship. I consider Buffy and Anya to be acquaintances, not overly fond of one another but they respect and get along with each other well because they both love Xander. If anything, Buffy liked Cordelia more than she liked Anya.

                                When Buffy reached out and called her a friend in "Him", she was pretty much just blowing smoke IMO. But I'll talk about that more in the S7 rewatch thread as I am set to review that ep.
                                Last edited by Andrew S.; 02-02-20, 07:34 AM.

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                                • BtVS fan
                                  BtVS fan commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  Tbf she never had a single conversation with Joyce either yet the show expected the audience to accept her being devastated by her death

                                • Andrew S.
                                  Andrew S. commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  I never took Anya as being devastated by Joyce's death itself so much as the reaction to and overall experience of Joyce's death. Anya constantly doled out death as a demon, but "The Body" was the first time she had been on the other side of it. She was experiencing grief for the first time and didn't know how to handle it. Her convo with Xander back in "The Replacement" even established her newfound but very anxiety-inducing fear of mortality due to being human again. While Anya didn't love Joyce, the people around her really did, so yeah, I was able to buy her mini-existential crisis in Willow's dorm room.
                                  Last edited by Andrew S.; 02-02-20, 08:08 AM. Reason: Edited for spelling errors
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