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"Touched" (B 7.20): Did 'the Faith group' assume Spike would accept Faith as leader?

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  • #61
    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * I'll go through this thread later--I'm delighted the Board is still active enough for a thread to get over 1,000 views.

    But I'm irked that I still need to repeat the following: SHOOTING SCRIPTS AREN'T CANON. Shooting scripts if anything should tell us what is NOT canon given the stuff in them didn't make it to the TV Buffyverse.

    I don't even discuss dailies--things actually shot--and I don't try to use what's in dailies to inform the actual canon.

    Moreover, "Empty Places" (B 7.19) was done because of Faith the Vampire Slayer ; if it weren't for that, Buffy very likely would have never been ousted. "Touched" (B 7.20) was done because Eliza Dushku declined FtVS. Still, we need things to make sense and so we work with what is in the series.


    * I'll also point out that Spike was sent on a mission to find potentially important information about Caleb. And that it seems Andrew Wells also didn't inform 'the Faith group' regarding that information.

    And it's obvious the 'Faith group' would have preferred Spike's accept Faith's leadership. The group already lost Buffy. And now they'd lose Buffy and Spike.


    * Finally, I'll point out that attacking the vineyard again wouldn't be the same plan. Willow could be involved. Buffy could wield the Troll God Hammer. Faith could wield the rocket launcher.

    Maybe Xander and Dawn aren't involved.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by MikeB View Post
      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




      * I'll go through this thread later--I'm delighted the Board is still active enough for a thread to get over 1,000 views.

      But I'm irked that I still need to repeat the following: SHOOTING SCRIPTS AREN'T CANON. Shooting scripts if anything should tell us what is NOT canon given the stuff in them didn't make it to the TV Buffyverse.

      I don't even discuss dailies--things actually shot--and I don't try to use what's in dailies to inform the actual canon.

      Moreover, "Empty Places" (B 7.19) was done because of Faith the Vampire Slayer ; if it weren't for that, Buffy very likely would have never been ousted. "Touched" (B 7.20) was done because Eliza Dushku declined FtVS. Still, we need things to make sense and so we work with what is in the series.


      * I'll also point out that Spike was sent on a mission to find potentially important information about Caleb. And that it seems Andrew Wells also didn't inform 'the Faith group' regarding that information.

      And it's obvious the 'Faith group' would have preferred Spike's accept Faith's leadership. The group already lost Buffy. And now they'd lose Buffy and Spike.


      * Finally, I'll point out that attacking the vineyard again wouldn't be the same plan. Willow could be involved. Buffy could wield the Troll God Hammer. Faith could wield the rocket launcher.

      Maybe Xander and Dawn aren't involved.
      Mike you say don't discuss stuff that wasn't on screen then mentioned the Troll Hammer which was (retconned into a God hammer then) forgotten about in the Gift 2 years previously
      I mean if we are bring other stuff. Why didn't Angel bring Wes and Gun and the whole Armed Response Unit and Assault Helicopters too

      Come to think of it how did Angel know to show up in that crypt to save Buffy from Caleb anyway

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
        Come to think of it how did Angel know to show up in that crypt to save Buffy from Caleb anyway
        He's a vampire. He can track her by scent - "Didn't anyone ever tell you that the whole smelling people thing is a little gross?"

        Originally posted by MikeB View Post
        [
        But I'm irked that I still need to repeat the following: SHOOTING SCRIPTS AREN'T CANON. Shooting scripts if anything should tell us what is NOT canon given the stuff in them didn't make it to the TV Buffyverse.

        I don't even discuss dailies--things actually shot--and I don't try to use what's in dailies to inform the actual canon.
        MikeB, if you don't wish to discuss Shooting Scripts or dailies then don't but others are free to do so. Furthermore, BtVS Fan did not claim the Shooting Script was "canon." They were asking which version of the script people would've preferred to have been used.
        - "The earth is doomed" -

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
          He's a vampire. He can track her by scent - "Didn't anyone ever tell you that the whole smelling people thing is a little gross?"
          Good point

          Comment


          • #65
            vampmogs:
            LOL it's not slightly different! It's VERY different! And, IMO, it's waaaayyy better.
            I agree. It's really like very line they have altered was better in the shooting script. Which begs the question, why did they change material from better to worse? It's not just stuff they have cut out for time limitations. They have altered the lines and made them worse by doing so.

            I especially like Buffy and Xander's dialogue.

            And I loved this line from Anya, although this was really a minor loss considering the impact of the scene:

            ANYA
            Andrew's got plenty of tears left in
            him, just tell him they canceled
            Stargate.
            flow
            ................................ Banner by buffylover

            Comment


            • #66
              God, that shooting script was much better! What the hell happened ?
              Still, I do think that the Scoobies had better reasons to gang up on Buffy this time around than in Dead Man's Party. In DMP, the actors are convincing enough that you buy into it, but looking at it objectively, I honestly don't get why they're so pissed at Buffy. It felt more contrived than Empty Places, imo. That's not to say it doesn't deserve criticism, but I'm mostly defending the idea that a lot of the problems that bug people in S7 were already present at various points in the show, and it feels weird to single out only S7.
              What a challenge, honesty
              What a struggle to learn to speak
              Who would've thought that pretending was easier

              Comment


              • #67
                I am probably the only one, but I don't think the shooting script is very good at all. Empty Places has a lot of issues, but I don't think this script helps repair any of them. I find Buffy sweeping an ornament off a side table really overblown and melodramatic. Giles seems even more authoratarian then what we actually saw in the episode and is virtually blaming Buffy for Jenny's death, which is completely out of order and I'm not sure their relationship could come back from that, if that's what Giles really believes.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                  I am probably the only one, but I don't think the shooting script is very good at all. Empty Places has a lot of issues, but I don't think this script helps repair any of them. I find Buffy sweeping an ornament off a side table really overblown and melodramatic. Giles seems even more authoratarian then what we actually saw in the episode and is virtually blaming Buffy for Jenny's death, which is completely out of order and I'm not sure their relationship could come back from that, if that's what Giles really believes.
                  I think it gives the other characters more agency and nuance (especially Willow), and it feels more grounded with references that harken back to earlier seasons.
                  That said, it's entirely possible that the acted out, shot scene would have been worse or just plain terrible. Maybe the pacing wasn't right and it didn't flow well, we don't know. There is much more to an episode than the shooting scripts.
                  What a challenge, honesty
                  What a struggle to learn to speak
                  Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                    I think it gives the other characters more agency and nuance (especially Willow), and it feels more grounded with references that harken back to earlier seasons.
                    That said, it's entirely possible that the acted out, shot scene would have been worse or just plain terrible. Maybe the pacing wasn't right and it didn't flow well, we don't know. There is much more to an episode than the shooting scripts.
                    You could be right. We can only go by what if sounds like reading it to ourselves It does feel much longer than what we got, so time might have been a big decider on which way to take the scene.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                      God, that shooting script was much better! What the hell happened ?
                      Still, I do think that the Scoobies had better reasons to gang up on Buffy this time around than in Dead Man's Party. In DMP, the actors are convincing enough that you buy into it, but looking at it objectively, I honestly don't get why they're so pissed at Buffy. It felt more contrived than Empty Places, imo. That's not to say it doesn't deserve criticism, but I'm mostly defending the idea that a lot of the problems that bug people in S7 were already present at various points in the show, and it feels weird to single out only S7.

                      Nobody (here at least) has stated that it's inconceivable that the Scoobies would gang up on Buffy in S7, though. I agree with you that there's some fairly understandable and logical reasons why they would doubt her leadership and had it been written better I would have been ok with it. As I've repeated several times now, it's more about the execution and the total and utter failure to address it in the following episode(s). You've said this several times and I've spent time trying to explain what, IMO, the differences are between S7 and S3/S4 (Willow and Xander's lack of voice throughout the fight, the extremity of kicking Buffy out of her own house, the characters seemingly not caring at all in Touched etc) and you haven't really acknowledged any of it and then just repeat the same thing again. At this point, I don't really know how else to say it

                      In regards to Dead Man's Party, whilst I really hate how the Scoobies behave in that episode (mostly Xander but Willow's passive aggressiveness is unpleasant too) I do get it on an emotional level. Whilst Becoming had a huge emotional toll on Buffy it also had a significant toll on the others too. Giles endured sadistic torture for hours, Willow suffered significant injuries and was temporarily wheelchair-bound, and Xander specifically states that he watched Joyce "go through hell" all summer worrying about Buffy. Buffy left the Scoobies in what would reasonably be considered a fragile, broken mess and they're not even aware that she checked up on them from afar (at the high school) before she fled town. I can understand how, to them, that would feel like abandonment, not just of her slayer duties but as a friend.

                      On top of that, Buffy worried them sick for 3 months not knowing where she was and concern often turns to resentment because of the emotional toll it inevitably takes on you. Xander mentions this specifically when he brings up witnessing the toll this took on Joyce ("you should have seen what you put her through") and the effect it had on all of them ("thanks for ruining our lives for the past 3 months"). To add further, Willow feels hurt and confused that Buffy chose to run away instead of talking to her (she doesn't know about Xander's lie and that "Willow's" message to "kick Angel's ass" would've made Buffy feel like Willow doesn't understand and wouldn't be sympathetic to her trauma) and is also upset because "she went through all this scary life stuff" and she no longer had Buffy to talk to either ("... and you were my best friend"). Also, as unfair as it may be, it's perfectly consistent with Xander's characterisation at this point (his anger in Passion and Becoming) that he'd be so dismissive and bitter about Buffy's heartache over Angel and that he wouldn't want to understand it. And to cap it all off, Buffy left Sunnydale defenceless for 3 months, and they had the extremely scary task of risking their lives every night to battle vampires without the aid of any supernatural support and with the weight/burden of knowing they're the Hellmouth's only defenders.

                      Now, I can flip all of that around in defence of Buffy because I am completely and totally supportive of her throughout Dead Man's Party and I both sympathise and understand why she had to run away. The events of Becoming (Kendra's death, her expulsion, her fight with Joyce, "kick his ass", her guilt over the emotional and physical pain Bangel caused her friends, and of course having to kill re-ensouled Angel) would be deeply traumatic and harrowing. If Buffy had to run away to cope with that, then I get it. If Buffy had to take time of Slaying, then I support it. And I think Xander is way out of line in how he speaks about Buffy and treats Buffy throughout the episode, I think Willow's passive aggressiveness is cowardly and upsetting, and Joyce's public drunken rant is her worst moment as a mother by far. But on an emotional and logical level it all makes sense to me and despite it being very unpleasant to watch it also feels really realistic to me and I think everyone is in-character and well-written. It's also true to the characters in the sense that, despite the ugliness of their fight, as soon as the zombies attack they have each other's backs within an instant and without missing a beat ("Xander!" *Buffy throws him a weapon* "Got your back!") which is a far cry from the Scoobies throwing Buffy out alone into a First-controlled Sunnydale and then not even mentioning her or worrying about whether she's ok in the following episode. As I've said repeatedly now, whilst I may find Empty Places poorly written, it is Touched that's indefensible for me.
                      - "The earth is doomed" -

                      Comment

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