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"Touched" (B 7.20): Did 'the Faith group' assume Spike would accept Faith as leader?

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  • "Touched" (B 7.20): Did 'the Faith group' assume Spike would accept Faith as leader?

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    It's trial-and-error to get a good title to fit.



    * I reason Buffy wouldn’t have been deposed in “Empty Places” (B 7.19) had Spike been in the room simply because Giles and Wood wouldn’t have dared spoken up and the assembled group would visually realize they’d lose both Buffy and Spike in favor of an unproven leader aka Faith. Kennedy’s desire to be in charge wouldn’t trump that.

    But that's perhaps another thread topic.


    In “Touched” (B 7.20), when Spike and Andrew Wells arrive, Faith has firmly asserted herself as the leader of Buffy and Co. and they already had gotten the Bringer and thus were already in the middle of their plan. Buffy was already gone and Spike’s not accepting Faith as leader wouldn’t result in Buffy and Co. having someone else as leader.

    ‘The Faith group’—or simply Willow—decided Willow would be the best person to inform Spike that Buffy was no longer ‘around’. That’s simply because Willow is actually the most powerful of ‘the Faith group’, Willow has been the leader of Buffy and Co. before, and Spike has accepted Willow’s leadership, and Spike still likes Willow and wouldn’t unnecessarily try to harm her.

    Willow tells Spike that Buffy is merely taking ‘a break’; so, it’s clear that at least Willow knows Spike would never accept Faith—or Willow—as permanent leader if Buffy were still viable.

    - Dawn even in Season 8 is not fully okay with Spike; so, she probably doesn't much care if Spike wouldn't follow Faith--outside of not having Spike as 'another Slayer'.

    - Giles would probably prefer Spike accept Faith’s leadership, but how much of that is because Giles wouldn’t want Spike’s trying to reinstate Buffy’s leadership?

    - Faith seems to regard Spike’s accepting her leadership as a Faith/Spike vs. Buffy/Spike thing and seems hurt that Spike clearly chooses Buffy/Spike.
    9
    Yes
    0.00%
    0
    No
    22.22%
    2
    The group as a whole didn't care if Spike's accepted Faith leadership
    44.44%
    4
    Some of the group didn't care if Spike's accepted Faith's leadership
    11.11%
    1
    Maybe/I don't know
    0.00%
    0
    I don't care
    22.22%
    2

  • #2
    Great question Mike. It's really hard to know for sure as not many people get to comment on Spike's attitude. I think most of the potentials expect Spike to fall into line, because they are so far removed from the central group they'd have little knowledge of the emotions and history at play.

    I think Willow and Giles both hope Spike will fall into line long enough for Buffy to reconsider, for things to calm down and for her to come back. I assume Xander doesn't care, but is wise enough at this point to say nothing. Faith also probably doesn't care and would perhaps think he'd just get in the way of her leadership and second guess her ideas. Dawn is probably hoping Spike will see falling into line another way to pay off his debts for being evil and would think him not accepting Faith was another sign he was not to be trusted.

    There are so many emotions at play here, and so many different characters, it's really hard to say for sure.

    Comment


    • #3
      Nope. Willow spoke up because they have at the very least a diplomatic history. Neither Giles or Xander is not going to confront a chipless Spike. But no, none of them ever expected him to group with them. They know it as soon as he arrives.

      But I would also say Will and Xander are not Team Faith so much as Team Giles. Giles is Team Faith because he thinks he can control her, not because he thinks she's some special leader. He's still a watcher at heart and slayers are weapons. I think Will, Xander and Dawn were well aware they were throwing some dice.
      Last edited by HardlyThere; 31-12-19, 01:29 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with Hardly There. For me it's a no brainer. I can't see any of the Scoobies (or Faith) anticipating Spike's loyalties lying anywhere except with Buffy. The others - meh, they don't count.
        sigpic

        Comment


        • #5
          No way in hell would they expect Spike to side with them (or anyone for that matter) over Buffy. The way they immediately tense up when he shows up also tells you they know he is going to be thoroughly pissed.
          What a challenge, honesty
          What a struggle to learn to speak
          Who would've thought that pretending was easier

          Comment


          • #6
            Hadn't Buffy already said to Giles that Spike was the only one who had her back (or something to that effect)? God I miss the buffy world shooting g scripts ...I can't remember if this was foreshadowing that statement or proving it.


            I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
              Hadn't Buffy already said to Giles that Spike was the only one who had her back (or something to that effect)? God I miss the buffy world shooting g scripts ...I can't remember if this was foreshadowing that statement or proving it.
              I think she says it in Empty Places so Touched is proving it.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
                Hadn't Buffy already said to Giles that Spike was the only one who had her back (or something to that effect)? God I miss the buffy world shooting g scripts ...I can't remember if this was foreshadowing that statement or proving it.
                She said Spike was watching her back. Giles distorted that into Buffy believed no one here (in the room) was watching her back - when he was pushing her out because she wouldn't obey him. Volcanic rage as I write this.....
                Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The exact exchange is;

                  BUFFY
                  You've sent away the one person that's been watching my back - again.

                  GILES
                  We're all watching your back

                  BUFFY
                  Funny. That's not what it feels like.


                  In Dirty Girls Xander, literally, moves Buffy to tears after she walks in on him defending her to all of the Potentials and arguing why she should have their trust and respect ("You've gotta trust her. She's earned it"). He unequivocally had her back and he paid a hefty price for it with the loss of his eye after he followed her into battle, despite the fact he believed it was a trap ("Buffy this thing has trap written all over it"). This takes place just one episode before Empty Places.

                  In Get it Done Willow defended Buffy both privately and publicly when Buffy verbally lashed out at everyone for being ineffectual and insulting Chloe. Willow tells the group that Buffy "isn't out line", much to Kennedy's displeasure, and then in Buffy's bedroom she tells Buffy it's ok that she was on hard on them as "she has to be." When Buffy expresses guilt that she didn't take more power from the Shadowmen, despite attacking others, including Willow, for not using the power they have, Willow again tells her that it's ok and that "they'll get by, they always do." In fact, Willow has been so reliable in her defence of Buffy that in Empty Places Kennedy even angrily snaps "Why are you always sticking up for her!?" There's nothing between Get it Done to Empty Places to justify Buffy losing faith in Willow's loyalty and support to her.

                  Buffy's words in Empty Places aren't proof of anything. They were an awful slap in the face to two people who'd defended her, followed her, reassured her, had faith in her, and stood by her side in battle not just in Season 7 but for 7 years. Just one measly episode earlier Xander's loyalty towards Buffy literally brought tears to her eyes and now that he's resting in a hospital bed, maimed and disfigured after following her into battle, Buffy says he's not "watching her back?" It's an awful comment.

                  I often think when it comes to this statement and the subsequent mutiny in Empty Places that people are putting the cart before the horse. Was Buffy on to something or was it the reveal to the group that Buffy doesn't trust them that pushed Willow and Xander to unfollow her? Giles reveals their discussion in front of Willow and Xander during the argument;

                  GILES
                  Didn't you say earlier today that you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that needs to be addressed


                  After their unwavering support of her throughout Season 7 and the outrageousness of that comment, I can only imagine that this upset Xander and Willow a lot. Especially after what Xander had just went through and how much this had devastated Willow also (her breakdown in the hospital). Prior to this scene they certainly hadn't done something to make Buffy doubt they still loved her. Willow had intended for her, Xander and Buffy to spend the day together "playing card games" and being there for each other and Xander. It was Buffy that pushed away and said she had to prioritise the information they'd received about Caleb and even when she did Xander still defended her once again ("It's ok. I get it. It has to be done").

                  I will never defend throwing Buffy out of her house. I will also never comprehend how the Scoobies are written in Touched and how much this episode destroys their relationship that I love so much (more-so, even, than Empty Places IMO). But Buffy's statement in Empty Places was unwarranted, undeserved, and frankly really disgusting. It's proof of nothing.
                  - "The earth is doomed" -

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I really believe the others want him gone.

                    He's a reminder that Buffy exists out there, alone without spells to protect her, the prime target of Caleb who had already beaten her that day. Being reminded would lose Dawn the moral high ground, as much as it would upset her. She's already on the brink.

                    Xander and Will probably have conflicted feelings they're repressing as well. Hell, Willow still believes that she is somehow acting out of friendship. Xander at least is suffering from same severe trauma.

                    Giles is willing to sacrifice Buffy for a slayer who will follow orders and fight the war his way. After all, in a war anyone is dispensable.

                    Kennedy sees a chance for power and a space in the inner circle.

                    Faith would love to steal Buffy's white knight because she still has that petty streak much as I love her, but she's also the most blameless in the entire bunch. She didn't want the job, and she is completely fussed on getting it done the best she can. Angel is the person she emulates - which apparently includes trying to kick Spike's ass to get him to shut up.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                    The exact exchange is;

                    BUFFY
                    You've sent away the one person that's been watching my back - again.

                    GILES
                    We're all watching your back

                    BUFFY
                    Funny. That's not what it feels like.


                    In Dirty Girls Xander, literally, moves Buffy to tears after she walks in on him defending her to all of the Potentials and arguing why she should have their trust and respect ("You've gotta trust her. She's earned it"). He unequivocally had her back and he paid a hefty price for it with the loss of his eye after he followed her into battle, despite the fact he believed it was a trap ("Buffy this thing has trap written all over it"). This takes place just one episode before Empty Places.

                    In Get it Done Willow defended Buffy both privately and publicly when Buffy verbally lashed out at everyone for being ineffectual and insulting Chloe. Willow tells the group that Buffy "isn't out line", much to Kennedy's displeasure, and then in Buffy's bedroom she tells Buffy it's ok that she was on hard on them as "she has to be." When Buffy expresses guilt that she didn't take more power from the Shadowmen, despite attacking others, including Willow, for not using the power they have, Willow again tells her that it's ok and that "they'll get by, they always do." In fact, Willow has been so reliable in her defence of Buffy that in Empty Places Kennedy even angrily snaps "Why are you always sticking up for her!?" There's nothing between Get it Done to Empty Places to justify Buffy losing faith in Willow's loyalty and support to her.

                    Buffy's words in Empty Places aren't proof of anything. They were an awful slap in the face to two people who'd defended her, followed her, reassured her, had faith in her, and stood by her side in battle not just in Season 7 but for 7 years. Just one measly episode earlier Xander's loyalty towards Buffy literally brought tears to her eyes and now that he's resting in a hospital bed, maimed and disfigured after following her into battle, Buffy says he's not "watching her back?" It's an awful comment.

                    I often think when it comes to this statement and the subsequent mutiny in Empty Places that people are putting the cart before the horse. Was Buffy on to something or was it the reveal to the group that Buffy doesn't trust them that pushed Willow and Xander to unfollow her? Giles reveals their discussion in front of Willow and Xander during the argument;

                    GILES
                    Didn't you say earlier today that you can't trust us? Maybe there's something there that needs to be addressed


                    After their unwavering support of her throughout Season 7 and the outrageousness of that comment, I can only imagine that this upset Xander and Willow a lot. Especially after what Xander had just went through and how much this had devastated Willow also (her breakdown in the hospital). Prior to this scene they certainly hadn't done something to make Buffy doubt they still loved her. Willow had intended for her, Xander and Buffy to spend the day together "playing card games" and being there for each other and Xander. It was Buffy that pushed away said she had to prioritise the information they'd received about Caleb and even when she did Xander defended her once again ("It's ok. I get it. It has to be done").

                    I will never defend throwing Buffy out of her house. I will also never comprehend how the Scoobies are written in Touched and how much this episode destroys their relationship that I love so much (more-so, even, than Empty Places IMO). But Buffy's statement in Empty Places was unwarranted, undeserved, and frankly really disgusting.
                    You're right. I remembered that wrong. And they were watching her back, but she felt her back needed to be watched against Giles at this time, and it did.

                    What exactly is the relationship between watching my back and I can't trust all of you? Giles is so clearly manipulating everyone. He is putting into action everything he told Buffy in the graveyard. Anyone is expendable. Buffy won't follow orders from her watcher - she is expendable. The council remains - the slayer is the weapon .
                    Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bespangled View Post
                      What exactly is the relationship between watching my back and I can't trust all of you?
                      To be honest, I think the relationship is pretty clear. Buffy's accusation that Giles deliberately sent away the "one person" that's been watching her back implies that he's orchestrated Spike's departure so that Buffy is left with a bunch of people who she cannot count on to look out for her. What is that if not a lack of trust in Xander and Willow? I could never "trust" someone if I didn't think they'd have my back so I don't see how else you could interpret that statement.

                      I'm actually going to avoid getting into a debate about Giles' motivations as it never ends well between us and will only derail the discussion. My only interest is to debunk some of the statements made in this thread that Buffy's statement is justifiable or proven by Empty Places or Touched at all. It certainly wasn't, at least not at the time she made it. I'd argue it was more of a self-fulfilling prophecy and a really undeserved and awful comment.
                      - "The earth is doomed" -

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think the first was playing with peoples mindset an extent, making people suspicious and paranoid.

                        I also think Giles was misreading Buffy's intent with that statement. She didn't say she didn't trust or value everyone else. She looked upon Spike as the only other warrior. Just like needing him to fight glory she needed Spike nearby to help her physically in the event of an attack. Giles
                        , presumably under the first's influence, misread buffy wanting Spikes strength nearby to buffy not needing anyone else.


                        I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          But Spike wasn't the only other warrior and he wasn't even the second strongest warrior in their ranks. They now had Faith, another Slayer, who is stronger than Spike and who put up a much better fight against Caleb than Spike did in Dirty Girls. Not to mention that in the same episode Buffy also calls Willow "her most powerful weapon." And in First Date Buffy privately admits to Spike that her wanting him around has nothing to do with him being a warrior ("No, you have to stay" "You've got another demon fighter now" "That's not why I need you here" "Is that right? Why's that then?" "'Cause I'm not ready for you to not be here") so we already know that's not her reasoning when it comes to Spike.
                          - "The earth is doomed" -

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Buffy's statement wasn't a statement of fact. She says herself it's how she "feels". She could be feeling that way for a number of reasons. It's how she perceives things at the time.
                            Last edited by TriBel; 01-01-20, 01:20 AM.
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              I think Giles was right when he said "you rely on him, and he relies on you". It was complicated and I don't think buffy could explain her feelings about Spike to anyone, including herself but there was a connection. She felt it, she knew with utmost certainty what was right and it wasn't sending him away


                              I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

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