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  • The flashbacks in "Fool For Love" (B 5.07) are what Spike tells Buffy.

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * The only parts of the flashbacks in "Fool For Love" (B 5.07) that may not have happened as we see them are the actual fights with the Slayers. And that's simply because (1) Spike was tailoring his lessons to Buffy, (2) Spike may still need to defeat Buffy in a fight, and (3) we know Nikki Wood begged for her life.


    * The flashbacks are what Spike tells Buffy. Spike wants Buffy to know him. He wants her to replace Drusilla, who loves all of him.


    * The flashbacks are the reason Buffy tosses the loose bills at Spike and tells him "You're beneath me."


    * The flashbacks are why Buffy feels so bad and lowly when Spike visits her at the DoubleMeat Palace.


    * The flashbacks are why Buffy "lights up" when Spike in "Hells Bells" (B 6.16) tells her, "You glow."


    * The flashbacks are why Buffy is affected by Spike's in "Same Time, Same Place" (B 7.03) telling her: "Look at you. You're glowing. What's a word means glowing . Gotta rhyme."


    * "What can I tell you, baby. I've always been bad.":

    Drusilla is prescient. "I see you. A man surrounded by fools who cannot see his strength. His vision. His glory." "Your wealth lies here (heart) and here (brain). In the spirit and imagination. You walk in worlds the others cannot begin to imagine."

    Drusilla sees immense darkness within William. And William becomes the Spike that Buffy knows.


    * "I was through playing by society's rules. Decided to make a few of my own. In order to do that, I had to get a gang."

    "Fool For Love" (B 5.07) is the first time we see the Fanged Four.

    Spike quickly changed the dynamics of the Fanged Four. He wasn't the leader, but they soon became less cautious and less careful.

    Spike's changing the dynamics of the Fanged Four had Angel and Darla knowing Spike and Dru would be in the Boxer Rebellion.


    * Spike 'opened up' to Harmony Kendall. She knows he's sensitive. She knows about Spike/Dru. Why would Spike lie to Buffy about his past? He wants Buffy to love all of him.

  • #2
    The flashbacks are what happens, but Spike does not tell Buffy the full truth. He tells her that he has always been bad, and then it cuts to him looking for a rhyme for his love poetry. He tells that he found himself a gang, and then it cuts to him being bossed around by Angelus.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Willow from Buffy View Post
      The flashbacks are what happens, but Spike does not tell Buffy the full truth. He tells her that he has always been bad, and then it cuts to him looking for a rhyme for his love poetry. He tells that he found himself a gang, and then it cuts to him being bossed around by Angelus.
      Yep. I always thought that this was very clear.

      How else would've their conversation had gone?

      "What can I tell you baby. I've always been bad... except for the time I wasn't"

      "But first I had to get myself a gang... but it was Angelus' gang and he was throttling me"

      That makes no sense. The flashbacks we are seeing are not the story that Spike is telling Buffy.

      Buffy echoing Cecily's words is meant to be coincidental just as Buffy echoing Darla's words in Becoming was ("Close your eyes"). That's why it packs such a punch.

      All this aside, there's also no way that Spike would expose his vulnerabilities to Buffy like this at this point in the story. Not only did he spend 100 years carving out a new persona for himself that he's not going to just throw away in mere minutes of sitting down with her but there's not a chance he'd tell Buffy that Angel of all people was bossing and pushing him around.
      Last edited by vampmogs; 29-11-19, 11:32 PM.
      "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

      Comment


      • #4
        I totally agree. We are seeing the actual truth as Spike is spinning a tale that presents him as always having 'been bad' because his image is greatly a reaction to the perceived weakness of William and an attempt to feel far removed from his human self's vulnerabilities. The flashbacks and what Spike is telling Buffy clearly start to become more 'in sync' as he gets towards the end and the image he has built for himself matches more the image he is presenting of himself. Buffy saying he is beneath her hurts so much because it proves that no matter how much he has worked on his image and separating himself from William he is greatly connected still and was again getting rejected. It is so impactful because she happens upon the same phrase, not because she is just repeating an insult he told her about.

        I don't believe that Dru looked into William and saw how bad/dark he was within either. I think she saw what she could make of him by siring him into being a soulless version of the man he was. There's a continuity between the human and the vampire of the personality and memories, the strengths and weaknesses of the human affect who the vampire becomes. Dru saw that with the promise of being 'seen', being understood and being loved, William would become intensely loyal to her. It was feeling alone and left out of the Angel/Darla dynamic which made her want to find a playmate after all. But there was nothing to suggest that William was an evil/bad person within him. He hadn't 'always been bad' at all. No more than anyone has the capacity to have their worst side brought out by becoming soulless.
        Last edited by Stoney; 30-11-19, 08:59 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
          It is so impactful because she happens upon the same phrase, not because she is just repeating an insult he told her about.
          Yep. This.

          If Buffy was just repeating Cecily's words to upset Spike then, pffft, big deal. Spike would know it was just out of spite and whilst it would probably still upset him it's easier to rationalise as Buffy just being vindictive and that it doesn't hold much weight. But as you say, the words cut so deep because no matter how much he's tried to change over the past century and no matter what reputation or persona he's built for himself, he realises he's still William the Bloody Awful poet.

          It's so much more powerful that way. Not that I even think it's ambiguous, mind you.
          Last edited by vampmogs; 30-11-19, 02:52 AM.
          "The earth is doomed!" - Banner by Nina

          Comment


          • #6
            But he beat Angel. That entire incident was about what a ponce Angel was, and how Spike refused to give in to him.

            As for the Cecily scene, Spike didn't have to give a blow by blow of the party but he was never shy about how becoming a vampire saved him from a life of mediocrity so I doubt he felt he had much to hid about how his human self was less than stellar that was no more a vulnerability than Buffy being an airhead before she was called as a slayer.
            Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

            Comment


            • #7
              Even though as I remember it I'd agree part of the purpose in that scene was showing him standing up to Angel and being defiant, it was hardly showing that Spike got himself a gang and as supporting what he was saying. It is showing that he was far from the alpha male that saying he got himself a gang suggests but was building up to it and challenging/pushing back against where he was and looking to change things. His image building is still more 'in progress' than he's letting on. And just thinking about it, in what world could he believably suggest to Buffy that Angel and Darla were following him and her roll with that? I think that would have just made her laugh at him.

              I really don't agree about Spike not wanting to hide who he was as a human too. Calling his human existence one of mediocrity is very general and just about talking up becoming a vampire, about seeing it as stepping up and greatly again about hand waving/dismissing who he'd been as irrelevant to who he became. His whole need to build an image is to try to convince himself that he isn't weak like William was, can shield himself from mockery like William was treated to, and the reason he was so suicidal in Doomed is because he felt reduced to being weak again. He got a lift out of mocking Willow and Xander because it made him feel separate to them when he was fearing being like they were again, but he only truly shook off his melancholy when he could physically dominate and appear strong again. I can see the argument that he feels he isn't like William anymore so he wouldn't feel it was necessary to hide the truth of who William was, but that directly contradicts him saying he's always been bad being undercut by us seeing that to be far from the truth. The switch from that line with his bravado in its delivery to William at the party shows that he isn't being honest. And that's because in truth, underneath all the posturing and leather, Spike very much fears not really having changed, and so that's why he wants to hide the truth of who he was.

              It's also why Angel is able to taunt him so accurately because he saw William and he saw Spike's need/wish to build a separation and create an image, rename himself. But the real deep kick really does come in Buffy's rejection mirroring Cecily's and proving to him that after all those years and that steadily built image, he hasn't succeeded. This is why the flashbacks become interspersed with reality as he's talking about the fight with Nikki, his account is becoming closer to what we're seeing when he feels it is an image he's happy to share, the image he feels he now 'is', but of course it isn't the whole truth and Buffy's line cuts through the shielding it gives. To see him as having just told Buffy all that we're seeing really reduces the complexity of the episode and character exploration I think.
              Last edited by Stoney; 30-11-19, 05:44 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think Drusilla saw what she was looking for, her knight in shining armor who would lover her, kneel at her feet and pamper her. She saw that he would be fun in a chaotic neutral sense like her. I'd class Angelus and Darla as Lawful Evil. This way Dru could go out and have her fun and have someone to share the blame, someone willing to take the blame if she wanted to avoid punishment though punishment was foreplay for her and Angelus.
                Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                  Yep. I always thought that this was very clear.

                  How else would've their conversation had gone?

                  "What can I tell you baby. I've always been bad... except for the time I wasn't"

                  "But first I had to get myself a gang... but it was Angelus' gang and he was throttling me"

                  That makes no sense. The flashbacks we are seeing are not the story that Spike is telling Buffy.

                  Buffy echoing Cecily's words is meant to be coincidental just as Buffy echoing Darla's words in Becoming was ("Close your eyes"). That's why it packs such a punch.

                  All this aside, there's also no way that Spike would expose his vulnerabilities to Buffy like this at this point in the story. Not only did he spend 100 years carving out a new persona for himself that he's not going to just throw away in mere minutes of sitting down with her but there's not a chance he'd tell Buffy that Angel of all people was bossing and pushing him around.
                  Plus the fact that the whole Crossover with Ats Darla shows that Spikes perspective is wrong. In FFL he was shown to be in Darla's words "the first drooling idiot that came along" for Dru to turn. He also thinks Angelus is just jealous of him yet that episode shows he's disgusted because of his soul.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                  Even though as I remember it I'd agree part of the purpose in that scene was showing him standing up to Angel and being defiant, it was hardly showing that Spike got himself a gang and as supporting what he was saying. It is showing that he was far from the alpha male that saying he got himself a gang suggests but was building up to it and challenging/pushing back against where he was and looking to change things. His image building is still more 'in progress' than he's letting on. And just thinking about it, in what world could he believably suggest to Buffy that Angel and Darla were following him and her roll with that? I think that would have just made her laugh at him.

                  I really don't agree about Spike not wanting to hide who he was as a human too. Calling his human existence one of mediocrity is very general and just about talking up becoming a vampire, about seeing it as stepping up and greatly again about hand waving/dismissing who he'd been as irrelevant to who he became. His whole need to build an image is to try to convince himself that he isn't weak like William was, can shield himself from mockery like William was treated to, and the reason he was so suicidal in Doomed is because he felt reduced to being weak again. He got a lift out of mocking Willow and Xander because it made him feel separate to them when he was fearing being like they were again, but he only truly shook off his melancholy when he could physically dominate and appear strong again. I can see the argument that he feels he isn't like William anymore so he wouldn't feel it was necessary to hide the truth of who William was, but that directly contradicts him saying he's always been bad being undercut by us seeing that to be far from the truth. The switch from that line with his bravado in its delivery to William at the party shows that he isn't being honest. And that's because in truth, underneath all the posturing and leather, Spike very much fears not really having changed, and so that's why he wants to hide the truth of who he was.

                  It's also why Angel is able to taunt him so accurately because he saw William and he saw Spike's need/wish to build a separation and create an image, rename himself. But the real deep kick really does come in Buffy's rejection mirroring Cecily's and proving to him that after all those years and that steadily built image, he hasn't succeeded. This is why the flashbacks become interspersed with reality as he's talking about the fight with Nikki, his account is becoming closer to what we're seeing when he feels it is an image he's happy to share, the image he feels he now 'is', but of course it isn't the whole truth and Buffy's line cuts through the shielding it gives. To see him as having just told Buffy all that we're seeing really reduces the complexity of the episode and character exploration I think.
                  Agreed and again on Darla when she is threatening the gypsy family, its shown her giving orders to Spike and Dru, she even states it "Do as your told"

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by bespangled View Post
                  But he beat Angel. That entire incident was about what a ponce Angel was, and how Spike refused to give in to him.

                  As for the Cecily scene, Spike didn't have to give a blow by blow of the party but he was never shy about how becoming a vampire saved him from a life of mediocrity so I doubt he felt he had much to hid about how his human self was less than stellar that was no more a vulnerability than Buffy being an airhead before she was called as a slayer.
                  I'm not sure the writers knew what Ponce meant when they wrote it. It means effeminate man in a derogatory way. The idea that a guy who paints his nails and wears a womans coat can call another man that is simply ridiculous.
                  Besides which Angel beats him anyway

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I agree with those—vampmogs, Buffy from Willow, Stoney,
                    BtVS fan
                    —who see Spike as telling Buffy another story (what it is does not matter) than the one we are shown—

                    But I would twist and emphasize the account a bit:

                    What is at stake here is not Spike's attempt to best Angel in Buffy's mind—that is a detail—or to gain Buffy's sympathy—if he had begun a revealing narrative of his journey from abjection to badness, one replete with details of his humiliations and sexual initiation, Buffy would have cut him off as quickly as she does when he attempts to embark upon a discussion of American beers. She, after all, is not "huddled in a dark corner with a creature [she] hate[s], dredging up details of past uglies" to learn Spike's life story...

                    At stake is the narrative of his becoming-Spike and his inability to forget what he was—an inability that at once makes him proud of the self he has made and haunts him with the possibility it was all for naught, that William may not in fact be dead, may still lurk within him, shaping. And when [I]we[I] see William at that party, see him crying in the alley, we realize that we have seen William before, that he has never ceased surfacing about the veneer of badness Spike has created: we saw him in S2 most of all, in Spike's powerless blusterings before the baiting, the taunts of Angelus, heard him in Spike's words to Buffy about his motivations for working with her: “I want Dru back. I want things to go back to the way they were—the way she acts with him…” He almost whispers the last phrase, the one he cannot complete, suggesting it emerges not of his will, would express things he could not bear to think, even as he cannot avoid thinking them. William has always been there: try as he might, Spike has found himself unable to fully bury him, has found him rising at points of romantic rejection—points that repeat Cecily’s rejection. I thus cannot believe he would relate this aspect of his past to Buffy—even if he could that night make her listen to his tale—for it resonates with weakness, shame, defeat, none of which he overcame when he was turned, much as he sought to, much as he fashioned “Spike” precisely to do so.

                    And this self-fashioning lies at the heart of FFL—a self-fashioning that works on multiple levels; within the narrative of William’s becoming-Spike, we see him acquire the central aspects of his vampire-self: his name, his accent and class association, his way of presenting himself, his scar, his sexual swagger, the coat. At the same time, following the narrative arc of the episode as a whole, we see William’s becoming-Spike as a becoming-story, a story he can tell, a self with a history he can progressively relate more and more fully. The relation between what we see and what Spike tells Buffy is thus asymptotic: the distance, the difference between what he remembers—and remembers actively, affectively at that moment—and what he says progressively narrows as the episode itself goes on. The gap between the two as Spike gives the story of his siring yawns abyssally, but with each instalment it becomes slimmer—until we come to the killing of Nikki Wood. This story we see, hear Spike narrate directly to Buffy, see, hear him alternate between the past of his doing and the present of his telling, for in this story Spike has become the self whose story he is able to tell, willing to tell, proud to tell. This story of Spike is one that Spike can tell as Spike: tell it as he remembers it, for the remembered self and the self whose story he can without editing, revision, or censorship tell—these two selves finally coincide. Or so he thinks...

                    In this way, we see Spike not only accumulating the material pieces of himself: we experience with him his becoming not only a self whose stories he is willing to tellbut one whose stories he is eager to brag about: What am I saying? I love to brag—! (SH).

                    Hence, as vampmogs has pointed out, the depth to which Buffy's "You're beneath me" cuts, coincidental as it is, its violent affect upon him: while Buffy has heard the story of Spike's siring and killing of two slayers, Spike has also affectively re-experienced his own becoming, both its thick humiliations and their overcoming. This returns him to himself, to the self he lost in his chipping, to the self who embodies power. At the end of his story, the end of his speech to Buffy, the one that so spooks her, Spike faces her not as the silicon-chained vampire he has become: he faces her as the freely enfleshed vampire who mastered Nikki Wood, suffused with the power that surged through him at the instant he snapped her neck and dawned her coat. Were it not for this suffusion of power, he would never have attempted to kiss Buffy... The chipping, I think, has brought William closer to the surface—I am thinking her of Stoney's reference to Doomed, in particular, but also, more generally, about his way of being in the world. Yet even as memory returns Spike, if only illusorily, to the height of his powers, at his greatest distance from the William he had sought to still, to kill, he encounters not the graceful, if arch, surrender of Drusilla but the harsh dismissal of Cecily, a dismissal that shears the self he had sought to build over William's grave, that send him crashing back down into that William, into his tears, his emasculation. Hence the shotgun—a desperate attempt to salvage some material semblance of power through its force, to recover Spike in all his glory once more...

                    The gun, the rush to kill Buffy, whom he now sees not as herself, not as the Slayer he could never kill, not as the woman he loves, but as a figure for all those who disdained and humiliated William himself and the William within Spike—Cecily, concatenated by Dru, as that last surfacing memory details her abandonment. But seeking them, together, seeking to kill them once and for all, and William with them, he finds, instead, Buffy in tears. Buffy vulnerable. Buffy feeling unutterably powerless. And he is moved—moved as William would have been. Then something crucial happens, something different, the first tectonic shift that will, later, eventuate Spike's becoming: when Spike drops the gun, drops his grasp for mastery and murder, when he responds to Buffy's vulnerability and powerlessness with concern, with gentleness, making himself vulnerable in turn—there he meets not the dismissal, the cruelty William knew; he meets an opening...

                    Buffy does not lash out at him. She lets him stay, accepts his awkward gestures of comfort...

                    Buffy’s response shows Spike that vulnerability will not always be met with force and rejection, that care will not always be read as weakness. This gives Spike to experience the persistence of William within him differently, as something that need not be pushed down, that affectively opens, ever so slimly, another way of moving through the world, of being in relation—relation based neither upon mastery nor humiliation, relation lived elsewise, experienced with others and his varying selves, their varying stories....


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                    • #11
                      All caught up.

                      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.





                      These weren’t addressed at all:


                      * The flashbacks are what Spike tells Buffy. Spike wants Buffy to know him. He wants her to replace Drusilla, who loves all of him.

                      Does any viewer actually think Spike in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) doesn’t want Buffy to actually know him?

                      Spike is staying in Sunnydale to be with Buffy.

                      Does any viewer actually Spike think doesn’t want Buffy to love all of him?


                      * The flashbacks are the reason Buffy tosses the loose bills at Spike and tells him "You're beneath me."

                      At-most, posters ‘brush this off’ by saying something like ‘Buffy just happened to use the same phrase Cecily did’.

                      Cecily’s words hurt because she considered William literally beneath her on the social scale/ladder, that she could marry someone higher up.

                      Buffy as a Slayer pre-Spike had never been with someone who was actually her equal. And she rejected Dracula who was arguably her superior at the time.

                      Socio-economically, Buffy was superior to all her pre-Spike love interests except maybe Tom Warner (“Reptile Boy” (B 2.05)).


                      * The flashbacks are why Buffy feels so bad and lowly when Spike visits her at the DoubleMeat Palace.

                      Why else would Buffy feel particularly bad and lowly when Spike visits her at the DMP when she didn’t when around her friends. It’s canon she does feel bad and lowly when Spike visits her.


                      * The flashbacks are why Buffy "lights up" when Spike in "Hells Bells" (B 6.16) tells her, "You glow."


                      * The flashbacks are why Buffy is affected by Spike's in "Same Time, Same Place" (B 7.03) telling her: "Look at you. You're glowing. What's a word means glowing . Gotta rhyme."


                      This is simply not addressed at all in any of the posts.

                      Can anyone come up with a reasonable explanation for Buffy’s ‘lighting up’ in “Hells Bells” that it isn’t because of the effulgent thing?

                      “Same Time, Same Place” (B 7.03) also doesn’t make sense if Spike didn’t tell about the effulgent thing.


                      * "I was through playing by society's rules. Decided to make a few of my own. In order to do that, I had to get a gang."

                      "Fool For Love" (B 5.07) is the first time we see the Fanged Four.


                      Spike doesn’t say, ‘I had to immediately lead a gang’.





                      * Spike tells Buffy why he became a vampire. Cecily rejects him. Drusilla immediately falls in love with him and sires him, before that telling him how excellent, special, and wonderful he is, and that he’s “dashing”.

                      Spike at the end of “Out of My Mind” (B 5.04) owns to being in love with Buffy. He wants Buffy to be in love with him. He’ll later tell Anya that he initially simply ‘wanted to see what it was like’ to have sex with a Slayer. But then he goes to get his soul back and BtVS S7 and Season 8 and Season 9 happens.

                      Spike doesn’t simply want to have sex with Buffy.

                      And there is simply around zero evidence that Spike didn’t tell Buffy what we see in the flashbacks.


                      * Spike/Dru as relates to “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) has Spike essentially telling Buffy that Drusilla wasn’t fully his until after he killed the Chinese Slayer. Spike wasn’t the “alpha” until that happened.


                      * It’s interesting that Spike doesn’t tell Buffy that he’s essentially the only reason Buffy/Angel could have happened. He prevented Angel’s being uncursed.



                      vampmogs

                      * Buffy’s words of “You’re beneath me.” “packs such a punch” because of what Spike told her of his story. Buffy’s intentionally being mean/hurtful. Spike had just told her he was staying in Sunnydale for the opportunity to kill her. And then he tries to kiss her. Then Spike grab her and tells her: “I can feel it Slayer. You know you wanna dance.” Buffy: “Say it’s true. Say I do want to. It wouldn’t be you, Spike. It would NEVER be you. You’re beneath me.”

                      Spike in “Out of My Mind” (B 5.04) would have successfully killed her if the chip were out. Spike had beaten Buffy in “School Hard” (B 2.03). Buffy even in “Tabula Rasa (B 6.08) and “Smashed” (B 6.09) is naturally—at least somewhat—scared of Spike. And Buffy certainly is in “Crush” (B 5.14) when she sees Spike back in his ‘Spike clothes’ and sees he has blood on his mouth.


                      * Regarding the 1880 A.D. mine shaft flashback, Spike told Buffy that “William the Bloody” was already infamous/famous. And that Angel and Darla were scradey-cats.


                      * Spike sometime before BtVS S2 begins considers Angel beneath him. Angel was trying to boss around, and Angel pushed around less than a year-old Spike. Spike doesn’t find that embarrassing. Spike was goading Angel.



                      Stoney

                      * Drusilla is prescient. And you ignore that Drusilla tells Angel and Darla: “I could pick the wisest and bravest knight in all the land. And make him mine forever with a kiss.”



                      BtVS fan

                      * Drusilla used her criteria. A major point of “Darla” (A 2.07) and “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) is Darla didn’t think Drusilla could pick someone superior to Angel. Yet, in the end Angel gets cursed with a soul and isn’t even ‘much’ evil anymore and Spike becomes a Vampire Slayer Slayer. And now Drusilla considers herself superior to Darla and ‘her man’ superior to Darla’s man.


                      * Angel in 1900 A.D. during the Boxer Rebellion IS jealous that Spike killed a Slayer and Angel is jealous that Drusilla now completely prefers Spike to Angel.

                      Spike in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) knows that Angel cannot beat a Slayer. Spike and Buffy know that both Spike and Drusilla are Vampire Slayer Slayers.


                      * Spike in “Darla” (A 2.07) doesn’t follow Darla’s orders and that he doesn’t think much of Darla. Drusilla instead of following Darla’s orders immediately goes to find Spike. Darla was the actual leader of the Fanged Four, but it’s simply Spike’s considering Angel the leader that very soon resulted in Angel’s being the leader.



                      StateOfSiege97

                      * William wasn’t a virgin before Drusilla.


                      * Spike likes that Drusilla calls him “William”. Spike likes that Drusilla loves “William”.

                      Spike in BtVS S7 doesn’t like that Buffy apparently doesn’t want “William”. She forces him to become “Spike” again.


                      * It’s easily argued that Spike decides to kill Buffy in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) precisely because she seemingly rejected William.
                      Last edited by MikeB; 30-11-19, 09:22 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by StateOfSiege97 View Post
                        I agree with those—vampmogs, Buffy from Willow, Stoney,
                        BtVS fan
                        —who see Spike as telling Buffy another story (what it is does not matter) than the one we are shown—

                        But I would twist and emphasize the account a bit:

                        What is at stake here is not Spike's attempt to best Angel in Buffy's mind—that is a detail—or to gain Buffy's sympathy—if he had begun a revealing narrative of his journey from abjection to badness, one replete with details of his humiliations and sexual initiation, Buffy would have cut him off as quickly as she does when he attempts to embark upon a discussion of American beers. She, after all, is not "huddled in a dark corner with a creature [she] hate[s], dredging up details of past uglies" to learn Spike's life story...

                        At stake is the narrative of his becoming-Spike and his inability to forget what he was—an inability that at once makes him proud of the self he has made and haunts him with the possibility it was all for naught, that William may not in fact be dead, may still lurk within him, shaping. And when [I]we[I] see William at that party, see him crying in the alley, we realize that we have seen William before, that he has never ceased surfacing about the veneer of badness Spike has created: we saw him in S2 most of all, in Spike's powerless blusterings before the baiting, the taunts of Angelus, heard him in Spike's words to Buffy about his motivations for working with her: “I want Dru back. I want things to go back to the way they were—the way she acts with him…” He almost whispers the last phrase, the one he cannot complete, suggesting it emerges not of his will, would express things he could not bear to think, even as he cannot avoid thinking them. William has always been there: try as he might, Spike has found himself unable to fully bury him, has found him rising at points of romantic rejection—points that repeat Cecily’s rejection. I thus cannot believe he would relate this aspect of his past to Buffy—even if he could that night make her listen to his tale—for it resonates with weakness, shame, defeat, none of which he overcame when he was turned, much as he sought to, much as he fashioned “Spike” precisely to do so.

                        And this self-fashioning lies at the heart of FFL—a self-fashioning that works on multiple levels; within the narrative of William’s becoming-Spike, we see him acquire the central aspects of his vampire-self: his name, his accent and class association, his way of presenting himself, his scar, his sexual swagger, the coat. At the same time, following the narrative arc of the episode as a whole, we see William’s becoming-Spike as a becoming-story, a story he can tell, a self with a history he can progressively relate more and more fully. The relation between what we see and what Spike tells Buffy is thus asymptotic: the distance, the difference between what he remembers—and remembers actively, affectively at that moment—and what he says progressively narrows as the episode itself goes on. The gap between the two as Spike gives the story of his siring yawns abyssally, but with each instalment it becomes slimmer—until we come to the killing of Nikki Wood. This story we see, hear Spike narrate directly to Buffy, see, hear him alternate between the past of his doing and the present of his telling, for in this story Spike has become the self whose story he is able to tell, willing to tell, proud to tell. This story of Spike is one that Spike can tell as Spike: tell it as he remembers it, for the remembered self and the self whose story he can without editing, revision, or censorship tell—these two selves finally coincide. Or so he thinks...

                        In this way, we see Spike not only accumulating the material pieces of himself: we experience with him his becoming not only a self whose stories he is willing to tellbut one whose stories he is eager to brag about: What am I saying? I love to brag—! (SH).

                        Hence, as vampmogs has pointed out, the depth to which Buffy's "You're beneath me" cuts, coincidental as it is, its violent affect upon him: while Buffy has heard the story of Spike's siring and killing of two slayers, Spike has also affectively re-experienced his own becoming, both its thick humiliations and their overcoming. This returns him to himself, to the self he lost in his chipping, to the self who embodies power. At the end of his story, the end of his speech to Buffy, the one that so spooks her, Spike faces her not as the silicon-chained vampire he has become: he faces her as the freely enfleshed vampire who mastered Nikki Wood, suffused with the power that surged through him at the instant he snapped her neck and dawned her coat. Were it not for this suffusion of power, he would never have attempted to kiss Buffy... The chipping, I think, has brought William closer to the surface—I am thinking her of Stoney's reference to Doomed, in particular, but also, more generally, about his way of being in the world. Yet even as memory returns Spike, if only illusorily, to the height of his powers, at his greatest distance from the William he had sought to still, to kill, he encounters not the graceful, if arch, surrender of Drusilla but the harsh dismissal of Cecily, a dismissal that shears the self he had sought to build over William's grave, that send him crashing back down into that William, into his tears, his emasculation. Hence the shotgun—a desperate attempt to salvage some material semblance of power through its force, to recover Spike in all his glory once more...

                        The gun, the rush to kill Buffy, whom he now sees not as herself, not as the Slayer he could never kill, not as the woman he loves, but as a figure for all those who disdained and humiliated William himself and the William within Spike—Cecily, concatenated by Dru, as that last surfacing memory details her abandonment. But seeking them, together, seeking to kill them once and for all, and William with them, he finds, instead, Buffy in tears. Buffy vulnerable. Buffy feeling unutterably powerless. And he is moved—moved as William would have been. Then something crucial happens, something different, the first tectonic shift that will, later, eventuate Spike's becoming: when Spike drops the gun, drops his grasp for mastery and murder, when he responds to Buffy's vulnerability and powerlessness with concern, with gentleness, making himself vulnerable in turn—there he meets not the dismissal, the cruelty William knew; he meets an opening...

                        Buffy does not lash out at him. She lets him stay, accepts his awkward gestures of comfort...

                        Buffy’s response shows Spike that vulnerability will not always be met with force and rejection, that care will not always be read as weakness. This gives Spike to experience the persistence of William within him differently, as something that need not be pushed down, that affectively opens, ever so slimly, another way of moving through the world, of being in relation—relation based neither upon mastery nor humiliation, relation lived elsewise, experienced with others and his varying selves, their varying stories....


                        And then by the very next episode he is sniffing her sweater and stealing her underwear

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                          Stoney

                          * Drusilla is prescient. And you ignore that Drusilla tells Angel and Darla: “I could pick the wisest and bravest knight in all the land. And make him mine forever with a kiss.”
                          I don't understand why you're saying I ignore this. I'm sure that Dru could see what William would become when she killed and sired him and was pleased that he would be devoted to her. She made him promises that he'd finally be seen and used her sight to say precisely the right things to seduce him into believing he was being offered all he'd ever desired. But he had no idea what was really going to happen to him and the monster that he would become. I can believe that Dru saw that William would become Spike, faithful, loyal and devoted, and that is what she wanted. But she was never going to be 'just his' in the way that he wished to be loved and even when soulless imagines how they will be devoted to each other. Despite that clear disappointment and hurt we see in Destiny he does indeed of course stay loyal and devoted and Dru gets exactly what she wanted/saw in him. Until post S2 she realises that he's become surrounded by images of another of course.

                          Buffy doesn't reject William in S7, she just needs Spike to reconnect to the fighter he used to be again too for the fight.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
                          And then by the very next episode he is sniffing her sweater and stealing her underwear
                          Because he's still a soulless demon who lacks the moral boundaries he'll need before he could ever offer her a healthy relationship and be a suitable partner.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                            [i] All caught up.

                            All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what

                            BtVS fan

                            * Drusilla used her criteria. A major point of “Darla” (A 2.07) and “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) is Darla didn’t think Drusilla could pick someone superior to Angel. Yet, in the end Angel gets cursed with a soul and isn’t even ‘much’ evil anymore and Spike becomes a Vampire Slayer Slayer. And now Drusilla considers herself superior to Darla and ‘her man’ superior to Darla’s man.


                            * Angel in 1900 A.D. during the Boxer Rebellion IS jealous that Spike killed a Slayer and Angel is jealous that Drusilla now completely prefers Spike to Angel.

                            Spike in “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) knows that Angel cannot beat a Slayer. Spike and Buffy know that both Spike and Drusilla are Vampire Slayer Slayers.


                            * Spike in “Darla” (A 2.07) doesn’t follow Darla’s orders and that he doesn’t think much of Darla. Drusilla instead of following Darla’s orders immediately goes to find Spike. Darla was the actual leader of the Fanged Four, but it’s simply Spike’s considering Angel the leader that very soon resulted in Angel’s being the leader.



                            Your first point doesn't make much sense. Of course Angel isnt "much evil anymore" if he is cursed with a soul. That's the whole point . While Dru simply picked the first drooling idiot that came along, instead of a brave Knight. Again the whole point

                            No. Spike thinks Angel is jealous but Darla shows that he is simply disgusted due to his Soul. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!

                            How does Spike know that. Where does it say that in the text. Please tell me ?

                            Know she doesn't go to find Spike, she says ok and follows orders, Spike goes to her and they dance and Darla tells them to show no mercy. How did Spike considering Angelus the leader make him the leader ? That makes no sense.

                            Sometimes Mike with your posts, I can't tell if your being serious or just having a laugh/ or that it's a language problem (English not being your first) or age (are you young ?) or you might simply be slow. It's really hard to tell sometimes with your posts

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                            • #15
                              I love that "bravest knight in all the lands" and "drooling idiot" both fit Spike equally well.

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