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"Same Time, Same Place" (B 7.03): Why could Willow see Spike and Anya and vice versa?

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  • "Same Time, Same Place" (B 7.03): Why could Willow see Spike and Anya and vice versa?

    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




    * I previously considered that Willow could see Spike and Anya and vice versa simply because Spike and Anya weren't as important to Willow as Buffy, Xander, and Dawn were.

    But does Willow actually like Dawn more than Willow likes Spike? Willow never casually put Spike in danger. Willow never casually tried to or wanted to kill Spike (maybe outside of "School Hard" (B 2.03)).

    Willow could see Giles and vice versa because Giles was understanding and 'forgave' Willow. He actually gave her seemingly permanent magical power (meaning Willow had her own magic). Sidenote: Drusilla seems to have some of Dru's own magic.

    Willow killed ONE human. Willow would know Spike's killed many thousands of humans. Willow knows Anya was a vengeance demon for over 1,100 years and that Anya has killed or been responsible for the deaths of many humans. So, Willow would reason Spike and Anya would be more forgiving of Willow and not as judgemental.

    Regarding Willow's trying to destroy the world: Anya's okay with Angel and Anya was never friends with Angel. Willow doesn't even know Spike knows Willow tried to destroy the world. Willow does know Spike got the Judge together.

  • #2
    She never cared for Anya and Spike is an afterthought for her. She was concerned about Buffy, Dawn and Xander's reaction. She thawed to Anya after S5 and was sociable to Spike, but I would not classify either as good friends. If she never saw either again, I do not believe she'd be too tore up about it.

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    • #3
      I agree with Hardly There. I don't think Willow particularly cared what Anya or Spike thought of her. Her worry was that her closest friends wouldn't accept her.

      I do think there is an issue with Dawn, in that she wasn't a close friend of Willow's and is also 5 years younger, so not a great part of Willow's life prior to S5 (if that makes sense - in the Buffyverse I assume Dawn had little to do with Willow or Xander while she was growing up) But I do think the way she treated Dawn at the end of S6 made Willow incredibly guilty because Buffy accepted Dawn as her sister.

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      • #4
        I think Willow's reaction to inadvertently getting Dawn hurt in Wrecked showed she did care for her quite a bit. I don't fixate very much on the end of S6 because she tried to kill everyone.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
          I think Willow's reaction to inadvertently getting Dawn hurt in Wrecked showed she did care for her quite a bit. I don't fixate very much on the end of S6 because she tried to kill everyone.
          I agree. I think Willow associated Dawn with Buffy so much, that Dawn was visible to her in this episode. It's not so much that she likes Dawn more than she likes Spike and Anya (though I think she probably does now she's aired her grievances) but that she loves Buffy and Dawn is part of Buffy in Willow's mind.

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          • #6
            Willow lived with Dawn after Buffy died. I am pretty sure she has some kind of meaningful connection with her. Besides she didn't try to kill Spike. There is no specific guilt regarding him. But she probably feels guilty about how she threatened to kill Dawn.

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            • #7
              I was always the impression that Willow/Dawn had a really close relationship even pre-Buffy's death. In Real Me Willow calls Dawn her "favourite chess partner" and Dawn describes Willow as "the coolest" in her diary. She also goes on to state how much "cooler" witchcraft is to slaying and seems really enamoured with Willow and says "even her friends are cool" when mentioning Tara. Then in No Place Like Home Willow tells Buffy she has "all this involuntarily empathy for Dawn because she's, like, you know, a big spaz." In Forever Dawn then asks to stay with Willow and Tara as she feels comfortable with them and in Tough Love Willow again empathises with Dawn and sticks up for her to Buffy.

              It seemed to me that the monks had created a special bond between Willow/Dawn. Dawn seemed to really look up to her and I got the impression that Dawn remembers Willow being extra nice to her which would be appealing as Dawn normally feels neglected and ignored. I imagine she'd have grown even closer to Willow (and Tara) during Buffy's passing. I think Willow was particularly distraught in Wrecked because they'd had such a significant bond and she'd ruined it.
              Last edited by vampmogs; 26-11-19, 03:42 PM.
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              • #8
                Perhaps you're right, but I always thought Dawn was closer to Tara than Willow. Dawn looked up to both Willow and Xander as she was growing up, but I don't think Willow took any special interest in her that I remember, although she did stick up for her several times.

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                • #9
                  I think that initially Dawn was much closer to Willow based on her narration in Real Me;

                  DAWN
                  Willow's the awesomest person. She's the only one I know who likes school as much as me. Even her friends are cool! Like Tara.


                  Back then Tara was just Willow's "cool friend" but the fact she was cool, in Dawn's eyes, was just further proof of Willow's "awesomeness." Which makes sense as at this point Dawn knew very little about Tara and she wasn't even aware that she was Willow's girlfriend. Whereas, she'd known Willow for 4 years and based on this exchange they did seem to have unique relationship;

                  WILLOW
                  Hey Dawnie! (hugs) How's my favourite chess partner? Still leading with your knight?


                  I think this implies Willow and Dawn must've played chess together and that Willow probably taught her how to play. I doubt this meant that Willow and Dawn hung out regularly without Buffy but I imagined that Willow gave her special attention whenever she was at the Summer's house. It fits with Out of My Mind where Buffy, Willow and Dawn are hanging out together in Buffy's bedroom. The bond between the three of them was also shown in Into the Woods where Buffy and Willow are comfortingly interlocking their arms with Dawn's on either side of her as they walk through the hospital together.

                  However, after Willow's magic abuse in Season 6 and especially after Wrecked I do agree that she seemed to grow closer towards Tara. Dawn slowly came to empathise with Willow and forgive her in Doublemeat Palace but Dawn was obviously very hurt and shaken by Willow's behaviour and resentful of Willow's addiction and it's intrusion in her life (Gone). I think for a fifteen year old it was natural she'd gravitate more towards Tara who seemed stable and motherly in comparison. I also think she had Willow on a pedestal and that seeing her in such a state really shattered her opinion of her.

                  Also, I don't consider Season 8 canon and I wouldn't expect anyone else to take this into consideration if they didn't feel inclined, but in S8's The Long Way Home Whedon wrote Dawn as telling Buffy that "Willow was like a mom to her" which is probably a good indication of how Joss perceived their relationship, for what it's worth.
                  Last edited by vampmogs; 26-11-19, 04:16 PM.
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                  • #10
                    I think we see in the show how much Dawn cared for and loved Willow. But did Willow feel the same, or as deeply? I am doubtful. Dawn is 5 years younger, so Willow wouldn't have hung around with her much. They are not on the same level. Your friends little sister might think you're wonderful, but would you really feel the same about them? They're your best friends little sister, so you'd be nice to them, but they wouldn't become one of your circle or a close friend. It's the same with Xander. Dawn has a massive crush on him, but he sees her as a little girl, and certainly doesn't have the same feelings for her (at least not on the show).

                    I really thought it was Tara who saw Dawn as separate from Buffy. As someone with her own personality, not just as an off shoot of Buffy. I felt Tara thought of Dawn as an outsider, just as she was, and they bonded over not being a scoobie.

                    I don't doubt Willow loved Dawn, but I also think she is in the same bracket as Anya and Spike in that Willow wouldn't necessarily care what Dawn thought about her, except on how Dawn's feeling impact on how Buffy will feel and deal with Willow's return.

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                    • #11
                      All caught up.

                      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.





                      * During my responding to the posts, I realized the likely reason Willow could see Spike:

                      Willow seemingly didn’t much feel the need for Spike’s forgiveness given Spike wasn’t harmed in any way by Dark Willow’s actions and Spike would be perfectly fine that Willow tortured and killed Warren Meers.

                      A non-chipped Spike finds out Warren shot Buffy and Buffy possibly almost died…

                      And Spike liked Willow enough that he did what he did in “Family” (B 5.06).

                      Willow’s knows Spike is fine with vengeance demon Anya in “Entropy” (B 6.18) and after simply because he finds it okay she wanted to do vengeance on Xander for dumping her at the altar.




                      HardlyThere

                      * It’s arguable Willow cared more about Anya than Willow cared about Cordelia.

                      It’d argue Willow cared more about Anya that Willow cared about Riley Finn. Riley was simply Buffy’s boyfriend and Willow didn’t like the Initiative and didn’t like how much Buffy associated with the Initiative. Willow was arguably friendlier with D’Hoffryn than she was with the Initiative.

                      Angel is simply Buffy’s love interest to Willow. There doesn’t seem to be much of any caring about Angel outside of Buffy’s regard for Angel and outside of Angel’s role in the fight against evil. Willow cared about Anya at least somewhat independent of Xander.


                      * Saying Spike was an afterthought to Willow is directly opposed to canon. He’s not as important to her as Buffy and Xander are, but those 2 are her best friends.

                      Tara was dead and it’s arguable whether Willow cared about Kennedy more than Willow cared about Spike.

                      It’s arguable Spike in “Same Time, Same Place” (B 7.03) was the 4th most important non-Willow person to Willow after Buffy, Xander, and Giles.

                      ___________________________________________

                      * Willow felt bad in “Wrecked” (B 6.10) that her actions almost got Dawn killed. My point is Willow could so casually put Dawn in danger. And as Dark Willow, Willow casually threatens Dawn with death. Outside of Scooby stuff, Willow after “The Initiative” (B 4.07) never put Spike’s life in danger.



                      Priceless

                      * It’s canon that Willow “cared what Anya or Spike thought of her”. Re-watch “Same Time, Same Place” (B 7.03). Willow’s cared about what Spike’s thought of her since “The Initiative” (B 4.07) at-latest.


                      * Willow’s guilt regarding Dark Willow is Willow’s killing Warren Meers the way she did and hers trying to destroy the world. See: “Orpheus” (A 4.15).

                      Willow cared about Buffy’s and Xander’s forgiveness. And at least somewhat Anya’s—because of the Magic Box damage.

                      _____________________________________________

                      * What in BtVS S7 indicates Willow likes Dawn more than Willow likes Spike?

                      Dawn is Buffy’s sister. Willow’s relatively liked and relatively has supported Spike since “The Initiative” (B 4.07).


                      * Willow possibly deduced that Buffy in BtVS S6 was apparently hanging out with Spike all the time and not hanging out with the Scoobies and Dawn. “Older and Faraway” (B 6.14) happened. I consider it unlikely Willow would consider Spike wasn’t important to Buffy.



                      vampmogs

                      * The point in BtVS S8 regarding Dawn’s saying “Willow’s like a mom to her.” is that Buffy essentially mostly ‘abandons’ Dawn post-“Lessons” (B 7.01). Dawn is used for Scooby stuff, but Buffy more focuses Buffy’s attention on Spike and then Spike and the Potentials Slayer.

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