Announcement

Collapse
1 of 2 < >

No HTML

HTML is turned off for security reasons.

Please do not use html in your posts or messages. If you are copy and pasting something from another website and you are having problems with it showing, then it may have html in it. This could be in the form of a website link or a viewable image or an emoji or a special chacter. I am not sure this is the reason we have errors posting.

Some html code can be simply swapped with our Bulletin Board code by changing the greater than/ less than signs with bracket signs. Other BB code needs to done using the buttons in the advanced post editor.
2 of 2 < >

Home Page

The home page address has changed to: http://buffyforums.net/forums/
Please update your bookmark. Otherwise, the home page does not show you are logged in and/or will not let you type into the log in box in the top right. The link at Buffyforums.net to the forums has not yet been updated. So you will experience the error when you enter the forum through that link.
See more
See less

Did Buffy make Angel lose his soul?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by bespangled View Post
    Yes - Angel lost his soul waking up with Buffy. Agreed no one was at fault. This is more about how we speak of what happened, and how we view of it. Joss told us from the start that Buffy sleeping with Angel and causing him to lose his soul was a metaphor for all women who sleep with a man, and then find he has changed. We were told and we accepted that Buffy was the cause of Angel's change. Isn't this victim blaming at it's best? Metaphor morphs into causality. The seductive woman once again causes the ruin of a good man.

    There are echoes of centuries worth of misogynist warnings against women's sexuality in what Joss tells us to see - Buffy slept with Angel and caused him to lose his soul. Saying this about Buffy causes no controversy. It fits with centuries of mythos - Delilah cut Samson's hair and cause him to lose his strength. Helen of Troy's beauty was the cause of the Trojan war. No one is overtly attempting to blame Buffy when they say that, but no one is active in trying to protect her from blame. This view of reality not only fits with the experience of women, the arbitrary blame is part of the entire package. She made a mistake. She gave herself to someone who was changed afterward. Her choice - his ruin.

    Buffy slept with Angel and caused him to lose his soul. I almost never read anyone saying Angel slept with Buffy and lost his soul Getting away from the technicalities as to the exact moment the soul was lost, the second explanation is avoided because it's said that it blames Angel. The usual response is that Angel knew nothing about the curse. There is a strong fan blow back protecting Angel.

    If saying this is blaming Angel, the surely saying it was Buffy sleeping with him is blaming Buffy. Our language choices underline our bias. We ignore the fact that Angel is not only responsible for his change, he is also responsible for his choices. Language creates reality. Buffy's choice was not the event that precipitated Angel losing his soul. Angel was responsible for a series of choices that set the event in motion.
    bespangled

    i understand your point, and i agree that the language of
    which you speak is predominant in fandom—

    it has just never been part of my language:

    i have never blamed either buffy or angel for the loss
    of angel's soul, and i do not see it as an either/or
    choice—that one or the other of them must be blamed—

    both of them are victims of the perversity of the curse,
    and although only buffy, really, must pay for it, given
    that angel, once soulless, does not have to pay, as
    he no longer cares—*

    moreover, no matter what joss says—and i am not much
    one for authorial intent—the text clearly shows, through
    giles' words, that buffy is not to blame: she blames herself,
    but that, too, is shown to be her own excessive self-guilting
    out of love, love and her own fall into patriarchal norms—

    those who blame buffy are not attending to the text—

    all that said, as i wrote above, angel may be slightly more
    responsible than buffy, as he was older and should have
    learned more about the curse, but only slightly—

    that means that in our wording, we should take account
    of that, rather than falling into easy blaming of buffy, as
    you point out, for that does fall back into a long
    misogynist history—simplifies the text, ignores the
    curse, which has its own misogynist implications,
    simplifies our own interpretations into normative
    patriarchal modes of understanding—


    *until, once soulled again, he is sent to hell—or, were
    he to have been soulled before he had been
    sent to hell, he would have suffered for what he had
    done while unsoulled....
    Last edited by StateOfSiege97; 17-08-19, 12:20 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      I was listening to Still Pretty's review on The Harsh Light of Day and it reminded me of my post:

      Lani: So we have Xander's view of sex here, that it should be about connection and personal intimacy as much as about sex itself. It's clear that despite his repeated grossness about women that this is how he feels. We've seen this before when Buffy tries to seduce him in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, he turns her down 'cause she's under the influence. He wants to be chosen for himself, not just for the sex. And in the end he says about Anya's advances, "Still more romantic than Faith." Like he clearly requires some level of romance for sex. Like remember with Faith when he said, "We have a connection." They've had sex. They didn't have a connection, he'd misunderstood that as a connection, and when he tries to talk to her, she almost kills him. We see this element in Xander that sex for him is about more than just this conquest or this physical experience you can have with a certain person. For Xander, he really needs this romance and that connection.

      Noelle: We've certainly seen him talk this talk of objectifying women, but when it's there staring him in the face, it's not what he actually wants. He wants love.


      Now Sosa is speaking, I don't see what's so difficult to understand here. I've been saying this for years. Xander's grossness is just a facade, it's just talk to make Xander seem manly, 'cause he thinks that's how he's supposed to talk, that's what it means to be to be a man, it was how how father and society expected of him, and he didn't want to be the exception. But it's not who he really is! People call him Nice Guy, ****boy, Women-hater, Incel and all these new fancy words because of his comments, which are just a shield, the real Xander is the one who was massaging Willow's head, and when she said, "Stop," he said, and I quote, "Stop means no. And no means no, so, stop." And he stops. That right there is the exact definition of respecting someone's consent, and he understood it well.
      Made by Trickyboxes
      Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

      Comment


      • #18
        The story is Buffy POV, so I think that's the real reason, but the connotations remain the same. The Angelus arc is about about punishing her for having sex. Whedon doesn't even deny it was about that.

        The overall notion that women are responsible for sex is there. It's played out again with Buffy and Spike.

        The attitude toward sex is very selective and tends to focus on certain archetypes and attempts to act to govern their sexuality. Buffy, Cordy, Darla. The sort of queen b characters that often read as the popular girls. I don't think it's really a coincidence.

        Comment


        • #19
          Now Sosa is speaking, I don't see what's so difficult to understand here. I've been saying this for years. Xander's grossness is just a facade, it's just talk to make Xander seem manly, 'cause he thinks that's how he's supposed to talk, that's what it means to be to be a man, it was how how father and society expected of him, and he didn't want to be the exception. But it's not who he really is! People call him Nice Guy, ****boy, Women-hater, Incel and all these new fancy words because of his comments, which are just a shield, the real Xander is the one who was massaging Willow's head, and when she said, "Stop," he said, and I quote, "Stop means no. And no means no, so, stop." And he stops. That right there is the exact definition of respecting someone's consent, and he understood it well.
          In many ways i agree with you, but how are the women on the show meant to tell? Personally I don't think they should have to waste their time on men who are either gross woman haters (incels etc.), or men who are sensitive and sweet, but don't know how to show that. That's not their problem. Men should sort themselves out and I think the absolute lowest bar to set for anyone is that No means No, and applauding someone for actually getting that seems a bit much. The good thing about Xander's character is that we the audience understand him, and he does improve as the show goes on.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Priceless View Post
            In many ways i agree with you, but how are the women on the show meant to tell? Personally I don't think they should have to waste their time on men who are either gross woman haters (incels etc.), or men who are sensitive and sweet, but don't know how to show that. That's not their problem. Men should sort themselves out and I think the absolute lowest bar to set for anyone is that No means No, and applauding someone for actually getting that seems a bit much. The good thing about Xander's character is that we the audience understand him, and he does improve as the show goes on.
            The women on the show like Xander. Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, Anya, Dawn, Tara, Ampata ... etc liked him just fine. The only woman who had a problem with Xander's inappropriate jokes, as far as I can tell, was Miss Calendar, and it was shown once in the episode Surprise. Cordelia made it a game between her and Xander where each one gives as good as they get. Perhaps it's because at that time, Xander's jokes weren't as offensive as they are now, heck even women at that time joked like Xander. The women on the show also enabled Xander's insecurity about his masculinity: Cordelia accused him of "running like a woman", Buffy assumed he must be sexually experienced, Buffy and Willow found it funny that Xander gets beaten up by another boy for a whole year, Cordelia mocks Xander for waiting for Buffy to save them, called him a wuss on many occasions and didn't think he was man enough.

            Xander was a 16 year old kid with no one - except for that one remark by Jenny Calendar - to set him straight or teach him how to treat and respect women. His male examples are his father and Uncle Rory who both disrespect women. Giles never showed an interest in him other than keeping him alive. Xander had to teach himself on his own from his experiences, which led to the fine young man he became in S7. He had to do it on his own. And by S7 he was only 21/22. I certainly didn't have a speck of maturity at that age.

            About my paragraph, I was talking about the audience rather than the characters. I was taken aback by Lani and Noelle's shock that Xander actually sought love and connection in relationships instead of being a sex-crazed maniac. Xander's words never really matched his actions, especially in regards to consent. He never touched a woman inappropriately - the way Larry did in Phases - like slap her on the behind or squeeze her butt or demand sex after a date, and he never took advantage of women, especially in BB&B when they were throwing themselves at him and would actually murder him if he doesn't reciprocate.
            Made by Trickyboxes
            Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

            Comment


            • #21
              Just to circle back around to the original topic of the thread - I completely understand what bespangled is getting at. Whether it's intentional or not fans, myself included, tend to phrase the events as "Buffy slept with Angel and caused him to lose his soul" which does have the implication that Buffy caused what happened. Buffy herself even feels guilt over this in "I Only Have Eyes For You" when she relates to James destroying/'killing' his lover in a moment of blind passion. Even in "Revelations" there's an element of blame involved when Xander asks "What? Wait for Angel to go psycho again the next time you give him a happy!?" So it's brought up in the text. I will say that when I phrase it in such a way it's certainly not my intention to blame Buffy. Despite Buffy and Angel obviously being responsible for the choices they made, neither of them could've possibly known what would happen and therefore cannot be held responsible for Angel losing his soul.

              I think bespangled has done a great job of articulating how whether this is intentional or not, the phrasing and it's implications have a pretty loaded history when it comes to women, sex and misogyny.

              I guess the only POV I would offer is that I think part of the reason fans phrase it in this way is also because Buffy is the protagonist and Buffy carries such agency and force within the series itself that it's natural for fans to describe events with Buffy as the instigator, if you will. I think it's understandable that fans phrase it in such a way that emphasises Buffy's role in what happened because Buffy has such a commanding presence. Despite the story elevating Angel to Big Bad status and obviously giving him substantial screen time, the story is still very much shown through Buffy's POV.
              - "The earth is doomed" -

              Comment


              • #22
                Angel gets to hear it a lot, just not in season 2. Giles says Angel got "complacent about [his] existence. The Major chides him for starting a relationship with a girl he can never have a happy life with. Xander and Cordelia are ruthless in their jokes.

                The thing is, though, that this is Buffy's story. It is about how she deals with loving someone who starts treating her badly. Because of the way souls work in the Buffyverse, the allegory doesn't work from Angel's perspective. In "Innocence," Angel plays the part of boyfriend-turned-cruel. In "Passion," he plays the part of boyfriend-turned-stalker. In "IOHEfY" he plays a cougar who gets killed by the young man/woman he/she seduces. But none of these characters are really Angel. They are just personas that evil!Angel takes on. The emphasis is on how Buffy deals with it all.

                There wouldn't be much to gain to explore the details of this from Angel's side. Real life people don't loose their souls.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Well, it isn't just Buffy or Xander than suggest it's Buffy's fault. Even the more objective characters suggest it or agree with it. Jenny agrees when Buffy says it's her fault. Giles is the only one that takes the less-incriminating viewpoint of it but even that is more about him not judging so much her not being a victim in it. There's inherent blame in the statement he makes. "It's not your fault you were attacked in that alley, but your behavior was rash in being there alone at night." Even though it's only figurative, I'd say even Angel subconsciously blames her given the goldfish metaphor in Soul Purpose. It's backed up again previously by him saying her name during the fantasy to lose his soul in S4.

                  Angel gets grief for the relationship, mostly after and specifically regarding S3, but not specifically regarding the sexual angle. The Mayor's comment is more about everything else. That everything else is more subsequent to the fact that they can't sleep together.

                  All in all, it's one of those metaphors that don't work very well. In real life, a guy doesn't turn into an ass after you sleep with him. He was always an ass, you just were played. The metaphor makes the change an actual result of her sexuality.

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X