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Was Spike "the doctor"?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
    I'm not talking about the characters, but the story itself. Neither of them give a genuine account. We see what is depicted, which is often at times in direct conflict with what either character says.
    Yes what the characters say is often in conflict with what they do. It's part of seeing where they are uncertain/unaware/kidding themselves etc. If the dissatisfaction is with the writing of the episode focussing on the same aspect over a few eps (showing Buffy's draw to Spike despite showing his moral limitations), I just think that it draws emphasis on a feeling of grasping at wanting to keep escaping but steadily moving more towards the end of being able to shrug at it for Buffy and her need to reassert her own moral boundaries by ending it. So for me, I think the repetitive aspects in the writing works to show the conflict and as a cumulative build up which ends with exposure being the final push to face the issues and then to their break. Or I've totally lost track of what we're talking about. Either way, we've gone a bit off topic.

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    • #47
      If Spike is the head of an international arms dealer ring (operating from a public telephone booth?) how could Riley just let him walk away?

      flow
      ................................ Banner by buffylover

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      • #48
        Okay...I'm quite happy to accept Spike as "the Doctor", just as I'm happy to accept he's doing it to make her feel better (just as her "do you love me" is to similar ends). Isn't that what Doctors do...make people feel better? But I'm calling BS on R/S's definition of the Doctor...which simply makes them look/feel better (and makes everyone else look/feel bad).
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        • #49
          Originally posted by Stoney View Post
          Yes what the characters say is often in conflict with what they do. It's part of seeing where they are uncertain/unaware/kidding themselves etc. If the dissatisfaction is with the writing of the episode focussing on the same aspect over a few eps (showing Buffy's draw to Spike despite showing his moral limitations), I just think that it draws emphasis on a feeling of grasping at wanting to keep escaping but steadily moving more towards the end of being able to shrug at it for Buffy and her need to reassert her own moral boundaries by ending it. So for me, I think the repetitive aspects in the writing works to show the conflict and as a cumulative build up which ends with exposure being the final push to face the issues and then to their break. Or I've totally lost track of what we're talking about. Either way, we've gone a bit off topic.
          But it is not depicted as repetitive. Somewhere between A and B, while Spike was busy setting up his side business, she forgot he was evil. Off screen. As she says in the ep: I should have remembered. Seriously. So it's not a confirmation of anything. It's a pretend everything from OMWF to Older and Far Away didn't happen sort of thing.

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by flow View Post
          If Spike is the head of an international arms dealer ring (operating from a public telephone booth?) how could Riley just let him walk away?

          flow
          The telephone booth thing is the least of the problems. That's how the mob used to do business before the days of burner phones.

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          • #50
            All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




            * Look up "FOB Shipping Point" and "FOB Destination Point". Spike was the Doctor. He would be correct that he was 'holding the eggs for a friend' if his contract was to get the demon eggs to Sunnydale.


            * Spike cured Drusilla, got the Judge put together, and found the Gem of Amarra. Spike's not being the Doctor makes almost no sense.


            * The only problem with Spike is "Where is all the money?" My personal canon is that Spike still owns and runs--probably through a management company--the Pratt estate.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
              But it is not depicted as repetitive. Somewhere between A and B, while Spike was busy setting up his side business, she forgot he was evil. Off screen. As she says in the ep: I should have remembered. Seriously. So it's not a confirmation of anything. It's a pretend everything from OMWF to Older and Far Away didn't happen sort of thing.
              To be honest I think it just shows the contradiction that was always happening. She was calling him evil etc, seeing his moral limitations but also turning to him not only to escape but relying on him, leaning on him as muscle/help to find Dawn and reliable to care for her and take her to the hospital but then is dismissing his ability to integrate with her friends the next. Their overly relaxed attitude about his 'safety' because of the chip has been commented on through the seasons and S6 is no different for showing him being disregarded and also accused on being dangerous. I don't think she forgot he was evil off screen I think that she is too complacent about what it means because she expects the chip and his feelings for her to stop him doing anything that would be a real issue. It is no different to Jonathan pointing out in Superstar that he is still a threat or them seeing that he could betray them still in The Yoko Factor. So I don't think it is unfair to think that she was being dismissive of the problems/evil that he could still get up to, regardless of the chip and his feelings for her. That even his feelings for her can't hold him back either is the further progression to come of course.

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              • #52
                We already knew that from Dead Things. And it's not like she stopped relying on him after.

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                • #53
                  I don't see your point. You said she forgot he was evil off screen and I'm saying that her dismissal of him being evil is there throughout the season. The difference in AYW is that she is questioning her own behaviour in dismissing it and in somewhat assuming he'll be trying to do what she wants. It is in line with the way they/she have behaved around him and it all builds up to her taking her own behaviour in using him, what that is doing to her, on top of being caught out to face it on a different level. Which leads to her taking action to break up with him. I can't see what the issue is with them showing either the repetitions of what they say and do, the contradictions in what they say and do or that it would take something further to make her change her choices. That she would look on something differently because of the context in which she was viewing it this time. Either from a character or writing point of view I'm lost as to what the issue is (but I'm fairly sure it still isn't on topic ).

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                    I don't see your point. You said she forgot he was evil off screen and I'm saying that her dismissal of him being evil is there throughout the season. The difference in AYW is that she is questioning her own behaviour in dismissing it and in somewhat assuming he'll be trying to do what she wants. It is in line with the way they/she have behaved around him and it all builds up to her taking her own behaviour in using him, what that is doing to her, on top of being caught out to face it on a different level. Which leads to her taking action to break up with him. I can't see what the issue is with them showing either the repetitions of what they say and do, the contradictions in what they say and do or that it would take something further to make her change her choices. That she would look on something differently because of the context in which she was viewing it this time. Either from a character or writing point of view I'm lost as to what the issue is (but I'm fairly sure it still isn't on topic ).
                    Was she dismissing it in Dead Things? They establish throughout the whole show that Buffy considers him an "evil soulless thing" and her hook-ups with him and her feelings for him spur a whole ton of ambivalent feelings specifically related to his evilness. She attempts to kick him out of her house just the episode prior for not being able to restrain himself. They are not repeating that she forgets he's evil. They repeat the opposite, that he's evil and she is fully aware of it but it's the only time she feels anything.

                    Then, suddenly, in the very next episode she's forgotten all of this and has to be reminded by Riley that he's evil because offscreen and unbeknownst to her or anyone else, he's playing Lord of War with demon eggs. The whole scenario is constructed for the single episode. He's a criminal mastermind and she's got amnesia.

                    The episode reads like legitimate Riley fanfic. He swoops back into town, puts Buffy on the right track as well as Xander and Willow and then swoops back off into a helicopter. Given the number of times the writers (even Greenberg in the last podcast thing he did) talked about fans seeing Spike as a good guy, the whole thing comes off as finger-wagging at those fans and using the characters to do it.

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                    • #55
                      I take your point but she has been dismissing it, dismissing that he could be any real threat or problem to her. Yes she is totally conscious that he is the evil soulless thing through their affair, but she isn't worried by him or what he might do. In that way she is relying on both the chip and his feelings to regulate him, despite having many examples of why he can do things exactly like the eggs. Her comfort with her option of control, what Dead Things also establishes, is in great part because of the inequality of the power in the relationship because of the extent of his feelings against the limitation of hers. So yes, in that sense she has 'forgotten' what he is can command him. I don't think that the idea of her having dismissed him to some degree is incompatible with what has gone before, but I do see the point of why it bothers you.

                      I do agree that the pro-Riley aspect of the ep to make his new life feel so precious compared to the mess that Buffy et al have gotten themselves into is way over the top. I don't listen to the writer commentaries and rarely read interviews, basically never listen to podcasts, but I can understand the writers frustration to be honest. Yes they have shown sympathetic sides to Spike and the character's potential to be influenced in positive ways, but they have always shown the negative/bad sides alongside it. In this way I can see that the 'reminder' that he is bad is too directed at the fans that were missing the points and that they wanted to hit over the head with the lack of moral boundaries he has, but Buffy's dismissal of the threat he could still be and her belief that he can draw the line when it comes to her and be able to state he doesn't hurt her is going to be a pertinent point. The idea that she has been reminded of the risk he poses and yet still doesn't really see the risk he still poses is going to be relevant again. I see the issues, I just don't think it doesn't work entirely. Not for me anyway.
                      Last edited by Stoney; 01-08-19, 12:19 AM.

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                      • #56
                        I think that the writers might for Spike to be the doctor, but I don't think that it comes off very convincingly in the episode. The way that James plays Spike he seems just as confused as the audience.

                        Spike being an international demon arms dealer has always seemed very silly to me. Spike has no real way to communicate with the world outside of Sunnydale. He lives in a krypt that has no internet connection, so how is he getting in contact with foreign hostile powers?
                        My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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                        • #57
                          He lives in a krypt that has no internet connection, so how is he getting in contact with foreign hostile powers?
                          There's a public T.E.L.E.P.H.O.N.E. in the alley behind the magic box. We used to use public phones to contact drug dealers/hostile powers/spies friends before mobiles were invented.
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                          • #58
                            The drug dealers/hostile owners/spies would have had to cruise by Willies to set up a meeting first. I don't think they're listed in the yellow pages.


                            “I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
                              The drug dealers/hostile owners/spies would have had to cruise by Willies to set up a meeting first. I don't think they're listed in the yellow pages.
                              Nah - that's only the case in Canada...
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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by TriBel View Post
                                There's a public T.E.L.E.P.H.O.N.E. in the alley behind the magic box. We used to use public phones to contact drug dealers/hostile powers/spies friends before mobiles were invented.
                                Gotta have a huge amount of change for making deals with international cartels and foreign govt. Though the operator interruptions would be hella fun to watch.
                                Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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