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Was Spike "the doctor"?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
    Spike obtained those eggs for the trio - that's why it's "the doctorI]
    The Trio is the Doctor? That’s actually something I‘ve never heard before. Which doesn’t mean it’s not possible. It’s just a completely new theory to me.

    flow
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Stoney View Post
      Yes the message is definitely repeated but that isn't unrealistic for someone to need before they truly face up to the situation they're in. As you say, as it was in S6 it wasn't going to get anywhere. But early on Buffy is looking past the bad to some degree as she wants to keep doing it. It does feel to me that she faced what being in the relationship despite her awareness of that did to her sense of self in AYW in a way that she kept trying to avoid most of the time. So the 'killing me' I think is a significant/different step in realising (or just finally fully accepting perhaps) that she can't get better and be the person she feels she should be and wants to get towards being again whilst still seeing him. She openly uses his feelings for her in AYW in a way she hasn't before in asking him to say he loves her, something she normally shuts down, and I think that paves into wanting to break away from who she is being by using him like this. There is an extra element that is at play through being exposed/shamed in the way it pans out that makes her face it and want to break away. I can see what you're saying about closing down any hope he has, but calling him William also acknowledges him in a way she hasn't been before too and I think ties to her deciding using him as she has been is doing something to her too. All these issues are at play I think as it's a really complicated mix of factors/feelings. But essentially the additional exposure alongside the compare/contrast to what relationship Riley has moved on to made her face her choices in a different light. Not that it was all new revelations, just an accumulation of reminders along with additional highlighting made her want to change the situation.
      It's not really learning something when the same character has been saying repeatedly. She's not looking past the bad at all. The bad is why she keeps doing it. The nature of their relationship is perhaps too characterized by each POV without a moderating viewpoint. Even in the episode, they make it clear she had already changed the situation. She no longer goes to Spike's crypt. He goes to her house and wears down her resolve. That is probably the biggest weak point in S6. The writers were perhaps too foolish in what can be considered overuse of unreliable narrators.

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      • #33
        The Trio is the Doctor?
        No, Spike is the doctor.

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        • #34
          All the doctors in, or mentioned in, BtVS are associated with duplicity/doubleness: Ben (Glory), Doc (helper/adversary), Dr Gull (ministers to The Queen by day. Kills prostitutes at night). Even the description of Doctor Isaac implies he's of extremes. "Guy's great, but he doesn't have the bone in his head that tells him when to back off". In short, to use the title of the episode when we're introduced to Ben and Isaacs, they all have a "shadow" self capable of killing/doing the wrong thing. "The Doctor" as in Dr Who (and yes - I've heard the theory before) is different - he has multiple selves - in theory, anyone can be the doctor. Maybe there is no ONE doctor?

          LOL! I quite like the fact that the episode poses the question Who is the Doctor?

          I agree - he wants the money for Buffy.
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          • #35
            So, who is the Trio then?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by flow View Post
              So, who is the Trio then?

              flow
              Tennant, Smith and Capaldi would be my choice. Though I could be persuaded to swap Matt for Jodie.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                It's not really learning something when the same character has been saying repeatedly. She's not looking past the bad at all. The bad is why she keeps doing it. The nature of their relationship is perhaps too characterized by each POV without a moderating viewpoint. Even in the episode, they make it clear she had already changed the situation. She no longer goes to Spike's crypt. He goes to her house and wears down her resolve. That is probably the biggest weak point in S6. The writers were perhaps too foolish in what can be considered overuse of unreliable narrators.
                In considering at all whether there could be any potential she's wishing for it to be something it can't be as the situation stands. That sets up for what it could be 'if only' of course and then feeds into what it becomes. But here and now it is about what it isn't. And yes, part of why it is wrong is an aspect of the escapism it provided. I don't think that they are overusing the perspectives and points simply because you can have contradictory responses to the same thing. The push/pull factor has always been a massive part from both characters and the mess that is the relationship at this point alongside the potential it has I think benefits from the repetition. It gives weight to the sense both of the genuine draws as well as the genuine and important barriers.

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                • #38
                  I'm not sure there is more epic headcanon in the Buffyverse than these Doctor excuses. It's even worse than "Damage" rationalizations.
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                  • #39
                    I think the most similar conflict to Spike being the doctor is " Did Xander summon Sweet". Both are just such totally bizarre actions for the character. I do believe Spike was telling the truth when he said he was holding the eggs for a friend. And I guess I can believe Xander too but I really Do wish it was Dawn.


                    “I like who I am when I’m with him. I like who we are together.”

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Stoney View Post
                      In considering at all whether there could be any potential she's wishing for it to be something it can't be as the situation stands. That sets up for what it could be 'if only' of course and then feeds into what it becomes. But here and now it is about what it isn't. And yes, part of why it is wrong is an aspect of the escapism it provided. I don't think that they are overusing the perspectives and points simply because you can have contradictory responses to the same thing. The push/pull factor has always been a massive part from both characters and the mess that is the relationship at this point alongside the potential it has I think benefits from the repetition. It gives weight to the sense both of the genuine draws as well as the genuine and important barriers.
                      I'm not talking about the characters, but the story itself. Neither of them give a genuine account. We see what is depicted, which is often at times in direct conflict with what either character says.

                      Originally posted by GoSpuffy View Post
                      I think the most similar conflict to Spike being the doctor is " Did Xander summon Sweet". Both are just such totally bizarre actions for the character. I do believe Spike was telling the truth when he said he was holding the eggs for a friend. And I guess I can believe Xander too but I really Do wish it was Dawn.
                      I use that parallel myself, but in terms of what we're apparently supposed to think rather than whether or not it's in-character. I don't think it's OOC for Spike to hide eggs or be the Doctor. There's just... no set up for it. You have to create a scenario of your own, which is a problem. It leads to frustration with the text because there is a level of judgment in the writing toward the reader.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by a thing of evil View Post
                        Spike obtained those eggs for the trio - that's why it's "the doctor", I mean, look at this, from Smashed:

                        Andrew: You're English, right?

                        Spike: Yeah.

                        Andrew: I've seen every episode of Doctor Who. Not Red Dwarf, though, 'cause, um...

                        Jonathan: 'Cause it's not out yet on DVD.

                        Andrew: Right. It's not out on...DVD.

                        Why does Spike work for the trio? Money, see this exchange from Doublemeat Palace:

                        Buffy: I need the money.

                        Spike: I can get money. Walk with me now, come on.
                        Really? If one of these demons can destroy a city then I guess the Trio really does intend to rule the world. Where will they keep them before they deploy them. I am hoping this is ironic, I really am. So many holes in it.

                        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                        I'm not talking about the characters, but the story itself. Neither of them give a genuine account. We see what is depicted, which is often at times in direct conflict with what either character says.



                        I use that parallel myself, but in terms of what we're apparently supposed to think rather than whether or not it's in-character. I don't think it's OOC for Spike to hide eggs or be the Doctor. There's just... no set up for it. You have to create a scenario of your own, which is a problem. It leads to frustration with the text because there is a level of judgment in the writing toward the reader.
                        I agree - there's kind of a weird back and forth in the episodes dealing with Spike and Buffy. I always took it as Marti and Dave Fury both trying to get their viewpoint shown.

                        I don't see Spike as able to plan how to hold eggs, let alone how to become and international demon seller that is being tracked by the authorities. Were this true he would be showering Buffy with diamonds and gold, just like he did Dru. This isn't a one deal thing according to Riley.

                        RILEY: Sam and I have been tracking a Suvolte demon through Central America. Killing machine. Nearly mature.
                        SAM: Yeah, three months old and growing fast.
                        RILEY: These things start to kill the minute they're hatched. And leave a real clear trail.
                        SAM: Yeah. Just follow the villages with nothing in them but body parts.
                        ***
                        SAM: We think they're gonna be sold on the black market. There are some foreign military powers that would love to have their own Suvolte. You could never train it, but drop it on an urban population...
                        RILEY: And it cleanses the area.
                        DAWN: Is that a nice way of saying it kills people?
                        SAM: Lots of 'em. Money's been exchanged. There's a dealer in town, calls himself the, The Doctor. Willow, you think you can help with a little locating spell?


                        I am stunned that anyone could believe Spike capable of coming up with a plan, being part of an international demon trade business, and hiding all his wealth and status.

                        I vote holding them for someone who claims to be a friend. I'm thinking someone knew the heat was on and bolted leaving Spike with the contraband. And I hate that episode with a bloody passion.
                        Can we agree that the writers made everyone do and say everything with a thought to getting good ratings and being renewed. This includes everything we love as well as everything we hate.

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                        • #42
                          As I suggested above - Whedon seems to have a very ambivalent relationship with Doctors. Here's an extract from an article on the cast for The Nevers.

                          Denis O’Hare (Big Little Lies) as Dr. Edmund Hague – A gifted American surgeon, he uses his skills in the coldest, most brutal way possible. But it’s all in the name of progress! https://ew.com/tv/2019/07/30/joss-wh..._medium=social
                          It's possible Spike IS the doctor but he's done the wrong thing for the right reason (money for Buffy). The text's attitude to doctors and the comment about money constitutes a set-up for me.
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                          • #43
                            Spike the Doctor? Yeah, that would work well. An arms dealer that hasn't even got his own phone.

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                            • #44
                              The idea that he's getting money for Buffy never washed with me. Even Spike is not delusional enough to think Buffy would ever accept anything from him. In fact, he'd know she'd immediately demand to know where he got it.

                              The whole thing is dumb. Apparently it was all set up in the ten or so weeks between OaFA and AYW.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                                Spike the Doctor? Yeah, that would work well. An arms dealer that hasn't even got his own phone.
                                Yes - but isn't it Riley/Sam who claim he's an international arms dealer? The more important their adversary, the better they look. It's about being defined by "the other" - irrespective of whether "the other" is a scar, a snazzy uniform and an equally snazzy wife, an arms dealer...or a vampire boyfriend.
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