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Contradiction between 'After the Fall' and season 8 that no one seems to mention.

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  • Contradiction between 'After the Fall' and season 8 that no one seems to mention.

    In my last re-read of season 8, I noticed something weird:

    In issue 36 ('Last Gleaming, part one'), we see Angel's past before season 8, the events that made him become Twilight. We see Angel falling from a portal in the sky to the ground near the Hollywood sign, THROUGH the Hollywood sign. His first thoughts are: "Ruins. Sometimes I forget that's all the world is. I flash back to the L.A. I lived in, that I tried to save, and for a moment it seems like it never happened. Like we never lost the war. I look and expect to see lights. Just for a moment." And then we see Angel looking toward L.A and seeing that it's fine, and he seems to be surprised as he says "Hmm. Long moment."

    To me, this seems to imply that Angel lost the battle in the alley in 'Not Fade Away', and spent some time in demon-ruled L.A, like we see in 'After the Fall', and that he is only now coming back to the regular reality in which L.A. isn't a demon playground. In other words - it seems to contradict the ending of 'After the Fall', in which we see Angel coming back to the regular L.A. in mid-fight, in the alley with Spike and Illyria and Gunn.

    Does anyone have an explanation for how this can be made to make sense with 'After the Fall'?

    (I kinda hope there isn't any explanation, since I never really loved 'After the Fall' anyway, and I'd love an excuse to disregard its full canon-ness...)
    Last edited by Guy; 30-07-16, 10:44 AM.
    Come on, I'm not a dog. I'm talking through the dog. He was nearby. I am a power without name, from a realm far above your petty-- Hey! Balls!
    HAHNANUMMANUMMA-SLURP-MMNN... Ho! Wait! Wait! Whoah! I can't help it! I'm housed in this animal. It's complicated!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Guy View Post
    To me, this seems to imply that Angel lost the battle in the alley in 'Not Fade Away', and spent some time in demon-ruled L.A, like we see in 'After the Fall', and that he is only now coming back to the regular reality in which L.A. isn't a demon playground.
    It's my understanding as well. Unfortunately, that bit on After the Fall seems to be ignored.
    My Tumblr: Dog is My Copilot

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    • #3
      Although we don't know exactly where Angel is coming from at that point it is clearly referencing losing the battle and demon ruled LA. Scott Allie did an interview with CBR about #36, which confirms that this was the ending that Joss had intended, although he had written it after collaborating with Brian so that is probably why it doesn't fit smoothly...
      What strikes me about the opening of this issue is that coming right on top of the news that Angel is headed back to Dark Horse after IDW wraps its run and synchs it up with what Joss has been doing in "Buffy." As Angel lands into the Hollywood sign here, we get our first direct reference to the IDW plotline with Angel's expecting to see ruins in Los Angeles. I'm assuming you and Joss have known that "Angel" would be returning to Dark Horse for a while?

      Yeah, we've known that for a long time. But in terms of Angel crashing through the Hollywood sign, that's something Joss wrote after co-plotting "After The Fall" with Brian [Lynch].
      Whedonopolis tried to explain/link it when reviewing the issue...
      The main confusion here is that in Angel: After The Fall, we witness “Angel” and his crew returning instantly from the hell dimension to the middle of the alley battle they started in the final episode of Angel season five. We could assume that, with his new powers, “Angel” could easily zip from the Hollywood sign to the alley behind the Hyperion in a matter of seconds. We could even hypothesize that, since “Angel” is dead briefly before the “Angel” gang returns from the hell version of Los Angeles, perhaps, his conversation with the “powers that be” in dog form could take place moments before the others return: the very instant that “Gunn” lops “Angel’s” head off.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by betta View Post
        It's my understanding as well. Unfortunately, that bit on After the Fall seems to be ignored.
        Yep, it's as if AtF is, like, HALF-canon.

        Stoney

        Thanks! Huh. They're saying it as if Joss just changed his mind, but it makes a lot more sense that he just FORGOT 'After the Fall' when he wrote 'Last Gleaming'. Hell, maybe Joss didn't even REALLY co-plot AtF, maybe he just gave Brian Lynch his Angel season 6 notes and wished him luck. It's really very sloppy... Oh well.
        Come on, I'm not a dog. I'm talking through the dog. He was nearby. I am a power without name, from a realm far above your petty-- Hey! Balls!
        HAHNANUMMANUMMA-SLURP-MMNN... Ho! Wait! Wait! Whoah! I can't help it! I'm housed in this animal. It's complicated!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Guy View Post
          Yep, it's as if AtF is, like, HALF-canon.
          That seems to be exactly what it is. As far as I know, Joss and Dark Horse editors never actually came out and called it canon, except Gage, who seems to regard it canon, but it is questionable if others share that opinion.

          There have been several threads in the past on whether this or that comic is canon. There are a lot of comics in that murky semi-canon territory: After the Fall, the IDW Spike series where he got his spaceship, "Into the Light" - which featured Dylan. It's questionable whether including or referencing characters and plot points from these comics makes everything in them canon, or just parts of them.
          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
            That seems to be exactly what it is. As far as I know, Joss and Dark Horse editors never actually came out and called it canon, except Gage, who seems to regard it canon, but it is questionable if others share that opinion.

            There have been several threads in the past on whether this or that comic is canon. There are a lot of comics in that murky semi-canon territory: After the Fall, the IDW Spike series where he got his spaceship, "Into the Light" - which featured Dylan. It's questionable whether including or referencing characters and plot points from these comics makes everything in them canon, or just parts of them.
            Yeah... I generally prefer to not let issues of canon ruin stories for me (I really loved Brian Lynch's "I hate official cannon" gag in 'Spike: Shadow Puppets'), but it's a shame that the IDW comics couldn't have been made to work more cohesively with the Dark Horse comics. 'After the Fall' should have been made to make more sense as the beginning of Angel's journey toward being Twilight, for example. In AtF, we saw that the Shanshu prophecy was going to lead to Angel fighting on the side of evil, without losing his soul - which makes a lot of sense as predicting the events of 'Last Gleaming', but for some reason season 8 never mentioned the Shanshu prophecy... So that was a missed opportunity. And it could have been cool if we saw Beck instead of Dylan in season 10, for example. And maybe Betta George could have been part of the magic council...

            Well, it's all under one roof NOW, at least.
            Come on, I'm not a dog. I'm talking through the dog. He was nearby. I am a power without name, from a realm far above your petty-- Hey! Balls!
            HAHNANUMMANUMMA-SLURP-MMNN... Ho! Wait! Wait! Whoah! I can't help it! I'm housed in this animal. It's complicated!

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            • #7
              Except, don't expect to see any characters introduced in the IDW comics to appear in Dark Horse comics. To date, Joss and whoever's in charge at of Dark Horse's Buffyverse comics have shown no interest or desire whatsover to show or introduce the likes of Bette George, Cordelia the Dragon, Spider, Beck, etc.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Guy View Post
                They're saying it as if Joss just changed his mind, but it makes a lot more sense that he just FORGOT 'After the Fall' when he wrote 'Last Gleaming'.
                I'm not a writer, but I think the whole Twilight plot came to Joss, and he couldn't shake it off, no matter what - character assassination (poor Angel), plot inconsistencies etc - he just had to put it on paper and published it: Destiny, the Universe dictating things, Prophecy, "Yin to her Yang", a conscious new dimension... I do like S8 now - but it took me some time to accept what was done to Angel, what Angel did. And then, till today, they have been dealing with the down fall, trying to withewash Angel whenever they have an opportunity.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by Guy View Post
                And it could have been cool if we saw Beck instead of Dylan in season 10, for example. And maybe Betta George could have been part of the magic council...
                Originally posted by Skippcomet View Post
                Except, don't expect to see any characters introduced in the IDW comics to appear in Dark Horse comics. To date, Joss and whoever's in charge at of Dark Horse's Buffyverse comics have shown no interest or desire whatsover to show or introduce the likes of Bette George, Cordelia the Dragon, Spider, Beck, etc.
                Betta George in the Council - I would have loved (duh, I'm betta, after all...), BUT then he would be dead by now. (he died once and was brought back, though...)

                It would be awesome to see again Beck and Spider, I very much like them. And Cordy the dragon, as well - she could be in the new Angel title... but I doubt.
                My Tumblr: Dog is My Copilot

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Skippcomet View Post
                  Except, don't expect to see any characters introduced in the IDW comics to appear in Dark Horse comics. To date, Joss and whoever's in charge at of Dark Horse's Buffyverse comics have shown no interest or desire whatsover to show or introduce the likes of Bette George, Cordelia the Dragon, Spider, Beck, etc.
                  Yeah, I think it's also a legal thing - Dark Horse got the rights to the Angel characters in 2011, but I think the new IDW characters (Betta George, Beck, etc) still belong to IDW. I could be wrong, though.

                  betta

                  I'm not a writer, but I think the whole Twilight plot came to Joss, and he couldn't shake it off, no matter what - character assassination (poor Angel), plot inconsistencies etc - he just had to put it on paper and published it: Destiny, the Universe dictating things, Prophecy, "Yin to her Yang", a conscious new dimension... I do like S8 now - but it took me some time to accept what was done to Angel, what Angel did.
                  Well, it really was a great idea, IMO. I wish the execution had been better (season 8 has a lot of rough edges, sadly), but still, as a whole, the Twilight arc in season 8 is INCREDIBLY powerful (even when the story had hiccups, it never stopped being interesting, and it always had a very purposeful drive), and the ending is just amazing.

                  If I may speculate... I think that Joss never really liked Angel. He said in an interview that he had trouble relating to Angel, because Angel always reminded him of the guys who would pick on him in school - all tall, dark and handsome. He said that he always built stories that break Angel down to nothing and build him back up, because that's the only way he could see Angel as a hero. And... I kinda feel the same way. Angel was never one of my favorite characters. So, Angel's turn as a villain in season 8 never bothered me. It made sense given where he was before (in 'Not Fade Away', Angel was all righteous fury and revolutionary pragmatism, and season 8 just took it to the next step), and Angel was always prone to going evil, so I had zero problems buying it. I did think we could have gotten more explanation of Angel's motivation to join up with Twilight, and I wished they could do it without going with mind control, but it still worked. plus, I am one of the very few people who were NOT spoiled for Twilight's secret identity, and that reveal was just SO powerful.

                  And then, till today, they have been dealing with the down fall, trying to withewash Angel whenever they have an opportunity.
                  Well, Angel's whole shtick was always redemption, right? I actually loved the fact that season 8 FINALLY gave Angel something TRULY worth atoning for, and not just the usual "I feel bad for things I did while I was soulless" crap. Season 9 was the first time I was REALLY invested in Angel's desire to atone, because it was the first time he really had things to atone for.

                  Betta George in the Council - I would have loved (duh, I'm betta, after all...), BUT then he would be dead by now. (he died once and was brought back, though...)

                  It would be awesome to see again Beck and Spider, I very much like them. And Cordy the dragon, as well - she could be in the new Angel title... but I doubt.
                  Spider never did much for me... But Betta George and Beck were great! I wish we'd at least get some form of cameo for them. Maybe they could get Brian Lynch to write a story for Dark Horse? Victor Gischler was really weak on the last season of 'Angel & Faith', so maybe Lynch could replace him?
                  Come on, I'm not a dog. I'm talking through the dog. He was nearby. I am a power without name, from a realm far above your petty-- Hey! Balls!
                  HAHNANUMMANUMMA-SLURP-MMNN... Ho! Wait! Wait! Whoah! I can't help it! I'm housed in this animal. It's complicated!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Guy View Post
                    Well, Angel's whole shtick was always redemption, right? I actually loved the fact that season 8 FINALLY gave Angel something TRULY worth atoning for, and not just the usual "I feel bad for things I did while I was soulless" crap. Season 9 was the first time I was REALLY invested in Angel's desire to atone, because it was the first time he really had things to atone for.
                    Yeah, that's very true. What the vampires did when they didn't have a soul hardly can be their fault, so Angel has always brooded (excessively) over things he had no control. But Twilight... he has tons to atone for.

                    Spider never did much for me... But Betta George and Beck were great! I wish we'd at least get some form of cameo for them. Maybe they could get Brian Lynch to write a story for Dark Horse? Victor Gischler was really weak on the last season of 'Angel & Faith', so maybe Lynch could replace him?
                    Beck could have worked in Dylan's place - she was very young and had a crush on Spike and she put him on a pedestal: he was her hero. By S10, she would be older and wiser, still admiring Spike, but not blindly, like youth sometimes do.

                    I liked Angel & Faith - I think Gischler dropped the ball in the last arc. It was like he got disheartened, and wrote the thing just to get over it. The final battle was a big brawl at the square, and Dru shamelessly running away was sad - in a very wrong way.

                    Having Lynch for a new Angel could be great. I still think the delay is because they are trying to get some very good writer for Angel...
                    My Tumblr: Dog is My Copilot

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Guy View Post
                      Well, it really was a great idea, IMO. I wish the execution had been better (season 8 has a lot of rough edges, sadly), but still, as a whole, the Twilight arc in season 8 is INCREDIBLY powerful (even when the story had hiccups, it never stopped being interesting, and it always had a very purposeful drive), and the ending is just amazing.

                      If I may speculate... I think that Joss never really liked Angel. He said in an interview that he had trouble relating to Angel, because Angel always reminded him of the guys who would pick on him in school - all tall, dark and handsome. He said that he always built stories that break Angel down to nothing and build him back up, because that's the only way he could see Angel as a hero.
                      Hm. Well, be that as it may, Joss clearly loves casting actors who look exactly like that, he's done it over and over in practically everything he's done. He said he had a "mancrush" on Tahmoh Penikett on BSG, so he cast him in Dollhouse. And Angel may not be one of Joss' favorites, but I'll be willing to bet on large sums of money that Mal Reynolds is, and Mal Reynolds is tall, dark and handsome (and played by one of Joss' favorite actors to cast in anything he possibly can). Maybe the problem is more that Angel, as written in most of BtVS, was the brooding, mysterious variant of the tall, dark and handsome type, and Joss prefers funny and snarky characters (though he actually wrote Angel in the BtVS pilot as a snarky type with a belligerent UST with Buffy - and for some reason, that characterization suddenly changed in his next appearance).

                      If I were to guess, I'd say Joss has a problem with a stereotypical image of a masculine hero and feels it needs to be deconstructed. He and his brothers seem obsessed with that character type and with deconstructing it in various (and quite different) ways. Even Mal is a deconstruction, as Joss wanted a hero who's nothing like a hero is supposed to be. In extreme cases, the tall, dark and handsome typical hero may actually be a ridiculous moron (Captain Hammer), or a villain; in less extreme, he turns out to be a damsel in distress more often than anything, is treated humorously, or keeps ****ing up and not getting things right. One may even say that Angel kind of emcompasses all of these things at some point (well, except for being a total moron), although he straddles the line between hero and antihero and even falls into villainy as Twilight. (And of course, when soulless he's definitely as villainous as possible.)

                      ETA: Plus, let's not forget The Cabin in the Woods, which mocks and deconstructs the "jock", "nerd" and "fool/funny guy" stereotypes, alongside the "virgin" and "whore" stereotypes, showing
                      Spoiler:
                      how a group of young people who don't fit any of these stereotypes are randomly assigned these roles by the people who are making them into victims in the real life slasher horror movie. So, just like the two women are forced to be a "slut" and a "virgin", though neither or them fits either role, one of the two smart, athletic and nice young men (the tall, blond and handsome/hunky Chris Hemsworth) is forced into the role of the jerk jock, while the other one (the tall, dark [in this case, also non-white] and handsome/hunky Jesse Williams) is forced into the role of the shy nerd.


                      Well, Angel's whole shtick was always redemption, right? I actually loved the fact that season 8 FINALLY gave Angel something TRULY worth atoning for, and not just the usual "I feel bad for things I did while I was soulless" crap. Season 9 was the first time I was REALLY invested in Angel's desire to atone, because it was the first time he really had things to atone for.
                      Eh, that's very questionable. I must disagree. I'm not one of the people who think that lack of soul is a complete get out of the jail card that means that vampires with a soul, or former vampires restored to humanity (like Darla), are absolutely not responsible for what they did while soulless, the way that possessed Cordelia was not responsible for Jasmine's actions. The shows themselves never treated the issue like that. It was always stressed that soul/no soul makes a big difference, but it's never been treated as something that means Angel or Spike with a soul are not responsible at all for what they did. It's one of those murky cases of compromised agency, but not lack of agency. The best comparison I can draw is, if you had a mental illness or an addiction, and you were cured, you're not the same anymore, and can't be held accountable in the ways you would if you were in a normal state of mind, but you would probably still feel responsible, and be tormented by memories of what you did. So, now we have to imagine what it would be like if people could literally contract psychopathy - if someone removed their conscience and capacity for empathy and remorse - and possibly get cured later by getting the missing part of their psyche back. I imagine that's what it would be like to lose your soul and/or get it back in Buffyverse. You wouldn't be the same person, but that doesn't mean that you would literally be someone else. You were still that person, sort of, you had your own thoughts and desires and emotions and memories and will, similar to those you have as your normal self, but warped by lack of conscience. I imagine that being a vampire would also mean having increased violent impulses compared to being a human. And when you get your soul/conscience back, you'd still remember all the things you did, know that you did it out of your own free will (even though you were different then), and you'd feel terrible.
                      Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 31-07-16, 09:06 PM.
                      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by betta View Post
                        Beck could have worked in Dylan's place - she was very young and had a crush on Spike and she put him on a pedestal: he was her hero. By S10, she would be older and wiser, still admiring Spike, but not blindly, like youth sometimes do.
                        Exactly! It would make a lot more sense than with Dylan...

                        I liked Angel & Faith - I think Gischler dropped the ball in the last arc. It was like he got disheartened, and wrote the thing just to get over it. The final battle was a big brawl at the square, and Dru shamelessly running away was sad - in a very wrong way.
                        I think Gischler just didn't really know how to plan plots over an entire season... He had some good short-term plots, but the long-term stuff always fell apart and turned into cliches.

                        Having Lynch for a new Angel could be great. I still think the delay is because they are trying to get some very good writer for Angel...
                        Yeah... Although, the most worrying thing about their recent anouncements was that they said that Angel and Faith would probably be split up. That's just not a good idea. Angel needs people to balance him, and Fred and Koh aren't enough. And what would they do with Faith if she isn't with him? shove her into Buffy? There's too many characters there already. Faith needs to stay with Angel.

                        TimeTravellingBunny:

                        Hm. Well, be that as it may, Joss clearly loves casting actors who look exactly like that, he's done it over and over in practically everything he's done. He said he had a "mancrush" on Tahmoh Penikett on BSG, so he cast him in Dollhouse. And Angel may not be one of Joss' favorites, but I'll be willing to bet on large sums of money that Mal Reynolds is, and Mal Reynolds is tall, dark and handsome (and played by one of Joss' favorite actors to cast in anything he possibly can). Maybe the problem is more that Angel, as written in most of BtVS, was the brooding, mysterious variant of the tall, dark and handsome type, and Joss prefers funny and snarky characters (though he actually wrote Angel in the BtVS pilot as a snarky type with a belligerent UST with Buffy - and for some reason, that characterization suddenly changed in his next appearance).

                        If I were to guess, I'd say Joss has a problem with a stereotypical image of a masculine hero and feels it needs to be deconstructed. He and his brothers seems obsessed with that character type and with deconstructing it in various (and quite different) ways. Even Mal is a deconstruction, as Joss wanted a hero who's nothing like a hero is supposed to be. In extreme cases, the tall, dark and handsome typical hero may actually be a ridiculous moron (Captain Hammer), or a villain; in less extreme, he turns out to be a damsel in distress more often than anything, is treated humorously, or keeps ****ing up and not getting things right. One may even say that Angel kind of emcompasses all of these things at some point (well, except for being a total moron), although he straddles the line between hero and antihero and even falls into villainy as Twilight. (And of course, when soulless he's definitely as villainous as possible.)
                        Yes, you're right, I described it wrong. Joss's problem was with Angel being a classic masculine Batman-y hero, not just with him being attractive, heh.
                        Angel and Paul Ballard both fall into this type, and both of them were constantly criticised by the stories they were in. Angel was character-assassinated on a yearly basis (Being revealed as a vampire in season 1, turning evil in season 2, being a little too good at pretending to be Angelus in season 3, being momentarily evil in 'Eternity', turning into an ******* in 'Reunion', attempting to kill Wesley in 'Forgiving', losing his soul AGAIN in 'Awakening', and going machiavellian in 'Power Play'), and Paul Ballard was constantly called out on the fact that he just wanted to get into Echo's pants.

                        Eh, that's very questionable. I must disagree. I'm not one of the people who think that lack of soul is a complete get out of the jail card that means that vampires with a soul, or former vampires restored to humanity (like Darla), are absolutely not responsible for what they did while soulless, the way that possessed Cordelia was not responsible for Jasmine's actions. The shows themselves never treated the issue like that. It was always stressed that soul/no soul makes a big difference, but it's never been treated as something that means Angel or Spike with a soul are not responsible at all for what they did. It's one of those murky cases of compromised agency, but not lack of agency. The best comparison I can draw is, if you had a mental illness or an addiction, and you were cured, you're not the same anymore, and can't be held accountable in the ways you would if you were in a normal state of mind, but you would probably still feel responsible, and be tormented by memories of what you did. So, now we have to imagine what it would be like if people could literally contract psychopathy - if someone removed their conscience and capacity for empathy and remorse - and possibly get cured later by getting the missing part of their psyche back. I imagine that's what it would be like to lose your soul and/or get it back in Buffyverse. You wouldn't be the same person, but that doesn't mean that you would literally be someone else. You were still that person, sort of, you had your own thoughts and desires and emotions and memories and will, similar to those you have as your normal self, but warped by lack of conscience. I imagine that being a vampire would also mean having increased violent impulses compared to being a human. And when you get your soul/conscience back, you'd still remember all the things you did, know that you did it out of your own free will (even though you were different then), and you'd feel terrible.
                        I agree that a soul is not a COMPLETE get-out-of-jail-free-card when it comes to guilt, and I don't consider Angel and Angelus to be completely seperate people. I can understand why Angel would feel guilty about the actions he did when he was soulless - it's like a drunk who feels bad for the things he did while he was drunk (Although, in Angel's case, it's like an alcoholic whose drink was spiked, because Angel never CHOSE to lose his soul). The problem is that redemption is pretty much Angel's ENTIRE motivation as a character, and when Angel spends so much time seeking redemption for things that he's only partially (at most) responsible for, his motivation is weak, and his character isn't very compelling to me. I can understand why he'd feel guilty, but I don't really care about it.

                        By contrast, when Faith's entire story is about guilt after 'Who Are you', I can TOTALLY get behind her motivation, because she really DOES have things to atone for - she had the ability to choose, and she CHOSE to do terrible things. Because of this, her redemption arc was always much stronger than Angel's for me. When Faith tried to get Angel to kill her in 'Five by Five', I totally understood her - if I did the things she did, I would probably want to die too. Angel's guilt just wasn't as moving as Faith's, to me, because his evil past had very significant extenuating circumstances.
                        And in season 8, Angel finally lost these extenuating circumstances, and did terrible things of his own choice (well, there was mind control later on, but at least SOME of it was of his own choice). And that made his redemption arc in season 9 much more compelling than before, for me. When Angel was catatonic in Faith's apartment, I had a lot of sympathy for him - how does one go on after doing things like this? That's something that I never really felt for him before season 8. Not even in 'Amends', when the show went out of its way to really show Angel's guilt.

                        Also, it REALLY helped that I saw season 9 through Faith's eyes. Faith was always one of my favorite characters, and if I see her spending an entire season rooting for Angel's redemption, then I start rooting for his redemption too, simply out of identification with her.
                        Come on, I'm not a dog. I'm talking through the dog. He was nearby. I am a power without name, from a realm far above your petty-- Hey! Balls!
                        HAHNANUMMANUMMA-SLURP-MMNN... Ho! Wait! Wait! Whoah! I can't help it! I'm housed in this animal. It's complicated!

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