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  • #61
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    I totally get this. This is why I can't dismiss the importance of canon as readily as others do. If there's no canonical continuity, no 'official' story, then anyone can pick and choose any story they like to help inform their opinion of a character/arc/episode etc and it would make discussing the series nigh impossible.
    I think the ‘no canon’ idea makes certain kinds of discussions harder to have, but I don’t think discussion would be nigh impossible if people’s ideas of canon are different. If so, the discussions on this very forum between the pro-comics and anti-comics people wouldn’t even exist. Stoney (and many other posters on this forum, I’m assuming) considers all of S8-S12 to be canon and I don’t, but that doesn’t prevent us from taking part in many discussions of the characters/arcs/episodes and considering each other’s different points of view despite us differing in our points of reference.

    Originally posted by vampmogs
    But I don't think the comics have a broad enough appeal or the ability to reach a wide enough audience for them to ever really be "canon." Leaving aside the millions of viewers who are only familiar with the original TV series as opposed to the 10k-20k reading the comics, you also have people within the hardcore fandom who aren't even reading them. Their readership is just so small that whatever happens in them is never going to be as wildly accepted as the TV series either because people choose to ignore it or because people have no idea it even happened.

    My gut feeling is that Joss probably knew that which is why he was ready to toss the comics aside if given the opportunity to work with the actors again and why, for instance, when he was asked about where the characters would be now during 20th anniversary celebrations, he acted as if the comics didn't even exist.

    The more Disney branches out with the series I think that the likelihood is that the only "canon" is the original TV series and everything else is it's own spinoff linage/world/canon. The BOOM series is just the beginning, IMO. And I think the DH comic continuations have already been boxed away in their own little universe divorced not only from future continuations but from the show too.
    Also, aren’t the DH comics out-of-print now? I think that’s also a factor in them being on a different level than S1-S7 as the TV shows are and will always be readily accessible for people to watch and discuss.

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    • #62
      Aren't Boom collating all the Angel stories from during the show as well as others into new compilation volumes and issuing the missing library edition of S11 too? I think it may just be that the rights to print them changed too and how they are addressing making their own stories as relevant/equal is to remove any boundaries and have them all as the back catalogue. I'm not sure and I don't think I've seen anything similar come out about the BtVS previous books, not yet anyway, so that might not be right at all.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Stoney View Post
        I think giving something the OK and seeing books as those that are following the show and continuing the canon story are just different things, even if both get endorsed. The books that came before the end of the show aren't ones I've read I don't think. Of course DH are always going to press Joss' involvement to aid sales, but aside from the times when he's credited as writing/cowriting issues I've only ever assumed the main involvement he's given has been the writers' summit. And I'm okay with that, even if it was limited and his interest greatly reduced, he was still having a say in where it was going and that's enough for me.
        A summit is nothing more than a meeting. Which happened with the other merchandise.



        Yes I wasn't saying AtF was a season, my point was exactly that it wasn't in fact. The comics called 'seasons' are clearly intended to follow the show, that's not hard to see, but AtF was intended to follow Angel too and that isn't titled as a season, so not everything which definitely deliberately followed the shows is. And of course AtF continued past what Joss was involve in too. Recently DH repackaged AtF 1-30 and included Joss' name on both outer volumes but inside it still doesn't credit him as writing past #17 I believe.
        ATF is a single storyline, just as Buffy's seasons. All the books have a qualifying slugline saying "this takes place during..." It's just a way to keep things in order.

        Joss' name isn't on the Lynch 8 books, but the bugship at the very least is confirmed by its use in the main canon title and particularly because we know that the included introduction in Lynch's Spike story happened at Joss' request. Joss did then oversee Willow's inclusion, but that doesn't mean he impacted the actual story direction Lynch was writing, just that he wanted to check out how Willow was being used in exchange for introducing the bugship.
        This is what I'm saying. Joss's name isn't there, but they are meant to be canon... or no? How is this different than S10 when Gage and NB were pitching plotline?

        Ah yes, working it back through once it has been revealed can be forgotten. Not always intentionally of course. I was really asking whether once Twilight happened if the risk was gone. It is only an ongoing reason Angel and Buffy can't be together, in addition to the curse, if it could reoccur.
        It was a one-time deal, but the whole of the Buffyverse led up to it.

        I'd have to read how they described the different sunlight in Pylea and who said what. But my natural inclination is instantly to start trying to find a way to connect and accept both inclusions. I go for the all-in for everything that is the canon continuation as well as the show and that's why I want to know what is and what isn't 'in'.
        The explanation is the two suns cancel each other out. UV light doesn't make sense. Spike would not be able to get around during overcast days because clouds don't block UV light. Florescent bulbs give off UV light. So do street lights.

        I can totally accept that it became primarily a money maker for Joss and his investment became limited, but just knowing which stories are part of the continuation and which are 'others' seems like an answerable question. Some are clear definites, like the main seasons, and some are less clear and that's why people debate it constantly and the boundaries can seem hazy as you say. But whilst I think you're right to suggest that selectiveness for personal preference can play a part too, it isn't necessarily the case though that everyone only wants to pick their favourite parts. I genuinely just want to know what to take into account.
        There's no money in comics. Joss probably makes more money in a week of Buffy/Angel residuals than a DH comic run. My belief is he just likes to keep some form of Buffy running so fans will stop asking about it. I do not think he cares.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
          A summit is nothing more than a meeting. Which happened with the other merchandise.
          Okay, but it still means that Joss had input in S8 through to 12 comics specifically whilst they were being visualised, and as a continuation to follow after the show. How much he had a meeting/call to just give a nod to the others and how much he actively participated in choosing the direction of the story and character developments I don't know. In that sense I'm unclear where the lines/differences lie and without knowing how the other stories were positioned and the levels of involvement, I can't really see if they were run particularly differently.

          This is what I'm saying. Joss's name isn't there, but they are meant to be canon... or no? How is this different than S10 when Gage and NB were pitching plotline?
          I don't see them as canon in their entirety and in great part that is because of both Joss' name not being on them and him not, I believe, being involved in the overall storyline. I've seen them described as quasi canon just because of the bugship. It does seem different to S10 to me as Joss was involved in the story direction and initial conception in seasons 8-12 and my understanding is that mayor decisions that happened post the summit about direction/plot were still passed by him to agree to or not. I think Allie, Gage or both said that at some point. Lynch as far as I know had a storyline that he was doing which he agreed to add something specific in for Joss for the agreed use of Willow. So much of these things end up being speculative so long after the fact and it all adds into that sense of uncertainty to what 'counts'. But there are definitely some where the intention for them to be part of that continuing story isn't hazy. Whether they are accepted seems to be what is up in the air then rather than whether they were intended to be part of it. So some are more clear than others.

          The explanation is the two suns cancel each other out. UV light doesn't make sense. Spike would not be able to get around during overcast days because clouds don't block UV light. Florescent bulbs give off UV light. So do street lights.
          Okay, that's interesting.

          There's no money in comics. Joss probably makes more money in a week of Buffy/Angel residuals than a DH comic run. My belief is he just likes to keep some form of Buffy running so fans will stop asking about it. I do not think he cares.
          But he doesn't make nothing from it and I really don't feel able to speculate on how much the level of involvement he kept was for whatever money it raised or to keep interest in the product or just to keep people quiet. I don't think he doesn't care at all because I just don't see why he'd give it any time at all if that were true. What exactly he cares about to participate at all is something unknown I think.

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          • #65
            Most important canon comic ever.

            I'm sure you're all agree.
            My deviantart: http://vampfox.deviantart.com/

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