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"Tales of the Vampires" Official Discussion Thread

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  • #31
    Up until now, the whole premise was that the public didn't know about the supernatural. It was always just something that we, the audience were supposed to take for granted. It's a bit of stretch when you consider some of the largescale supernatural stuff that's happened, but it's still (sort of) believable in the context of the show. The short answer is that Buffy and the scoobies know about the supernatural world because they are special. Your average Sunnydale citizen doesn't know about it because he's not important. We've been given vague explanations that help with this... vampires don't want to be publicly known, the government always tries to cover things up, people have a tendancy to subconciously deny what they can't explain, etc. etc.

    What's happening in the Buffyverse now pretty much flies in the face of all that. Why isn't the government or the church doing anything against the vampires? What about the families and friends of all the people who've died from "accidents with barbeque forks" over the years? What about all the bigots in the world who hate anyone who'se different? It took Kate just a bit of digging before she found out all about Angel's ugly past, surely the same principal should apply for most vamps.

    Like I said before, it's a stretch -a big stretch but given the context of the show I can suspend my belief so that the average Joe might remain ignorant of the supernatural, willfully or not. But the idea that the average Joe would *embrace*the supernatural, is a whole 'nother, less believable, kettle of tuna.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by hayes62 View Post
      You make a number of assertions about ‘what vampires are really like’ here without backing them up so I’m going to be generous and assume they’re based on what you saw in the shows. Other people have already pointed out that Harmony is hardly unique in being prepared to forgo killing people in order to earn a living in the human world. It’s true that we heard more often from vampires like Darla parroting the Master’s philosophy of separate and better. However the shows were never designed to present a representative view of vampire natural history. BtVS was a show about a Slayer and her friends and scientifically speaking its depiction of vampires suffered from a miniscule sample size of non-randomly selected individuals. Of the vamps with speaking parts Drusilla was insane, Angelus was the scourge of Europe and Spike killed two Slayers – none of them were exactly average. Which leaves Harmony and Darla both of whom wanted to live in the world - Darla even abandoned her beloved Master to follow Angelus out of the sewers.

      If we look beyond the regular characters, the kind of vampires we were shown was dictated by the need for Buffy and Co to have a reason to be interested in them and Buffy’s patrolling method was never to simply wander the streets dusting any vampire she happened to come across. She did research. She (and the scoobies) went through news reports looking for neck trauma victims. Murder victims not anaemic emo yuppies with minor bite marks. Inevitably she and we were going to see far more of the killer than the live and let suck kind of vamp (and the former are going to get dusted more often and thus be less safe). I just don’t think the shows provide anything like a firm basis to assert that predators were more common than parasites. The comics have a much more global focus and very clearly show a world in which the general public find it believable based on their experiences that vampires are symbiotes. They’re the boy next door and the small screen starlet. For almost no cost they provide a natural high and valuable entertainment services while being whiter than white and neither demanding welfare handouts nor competing for jobs. They’re practically a model minority (or can *appear* to be).
      When they were looking for a victim, they just pushed the head to a side and saw two bitemarks. When people get killed, the bodies get investigated (Not just the neck.) and if the people who do that are aware of vampires, bitemarks do ring all the alarms.

      So for this story to work, all the vampires need to embrace this new thing and stop killing vampires to suck them dry. Not just a group, not even a big group ... all the vampires need to 'behave'. If not, Harmony's whole story is blown. When vampires are still killing people, nobody buys the vampire as a friendly creature. And I don't buy that, I can see that some do it but not all of them. Even if Harmony is not unique and that there are more vampires who like this, no way that they all do it. There are two groups, the ones who live with humans and the ones like the Master and his vampires. The last group is the one that has the big names, the ones that made the other kind of vampires their flunkies. And now all those big names just take over the lifestyle of the 'lesser' vampires without a big win? We really have to believe that?

      Also, all the vampires can help themselves? Angel has at times trouble to not bite a person but a couple of random soulless vampires can do it? They never forget to stop? They never attack anymore? They all stopped killing?
      Last edited by Nina; 07-06-09, 02:04 PM.

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      • #33
        I don't know whether you watch Dollhouse but one of the characters in that series made a good point about 'big names' using the example of Bonnie and Clyde. Famous but dead. In my original post on this topic I did try to suggest that one reason for the Harmony spin machine being so effective was that it actually did contain a grain of truth. Namely that Buffy's Slayers have changed the world and one way they may have changed it is by taking out all those big name vampires and scaring the rest into a lifestyle change.

        After all if the existence of one slayer was enough to scare Angelus and Co into staying under cover in FFL what effect would an army have? When Buffy was the only slayer an attack on the Master's lair was suicide so his minions benefitted from his protection. Now the slayers can afford to go up against him directly. And if Harmony can (metaphorically) keep it in her pants it shouldn't be that difficult for your average amoral and opportunistic vamp to do the same. They can still kill people as long as they make it look like the work of ordinary human thugs but the Slayers can't dust them without being a lot more circumspect about it and losing the advantage they had in numbers and organisation. When all is said and done I think what we're seeing is a relatively minor change in public attitudes to vamps. It's just shifted from one form of denial to another. The big reveal/change is the existence of/attitude towards slayers.

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        • #34
          Nina, as I said before: I don't believe that the world would embrace vampires. I do however, accept that vampires would accept their newfound status.

          We've seen vampires play nice with both humans and demons in demon bars. We've seen Harmony and other vampire employees of W&H stop drinking human blood because they enjoy thier careers. Spike has teamed up with the scoobies several times, whether it's because he physically can't hurt humans or just to get Drusilla back, he's formed temporary alliances. Darla lived with Lindsey when it benifited her, vamps worked for the Mayor, there are vampire brothels and even Angelus was willing to play nice when Jasmine threatend him.

          Just like humans, vampires are quite capable of putting aside thier personal prefferences if it suits a greater purpose. They need blood for sustinance and up until now, the easiest way of getting blood was to kill. Now there's no need because people are offering their necks up willingly. I think the majority of vampires would accept this. In the words of Sebastian: why ruin a good thing?

          Spoilers for ATF

          Spoiler:
          After showing their true colors to the citizens of LA, Wolfram and Hart seems to have left this dimension. I don't think they'd stand a chance if they ever tried to come back, the human population knows them for what they are. It seems like the Demon Lords are lying low too. I'd say the vampire population took note of this and learned from it.


          While there are still vampires out there who relish the kill, I think these types would not only face the wrath of the Slayers, but also from other vampires who don't want thier status to harmed.

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