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  • #16
    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Well, since Whistler is the one who is following up failed Plan A to get even with his parents by destroying and rebuilding reality at the knowing and willing cost of billions of lives with Plan B to get with his parents by destroying reality at the knowing and willing cost of billions of lives.
    This is entirely your personal and a very narrow ( should I say focused on a miniscularly unimportant detail ?) interpretation of a very complex story. It is entirely your prerogative though to stay narrowed and discard the complexity of Whistler as a character. I have no desire to argue. I just find the story your are making up quite boring honestly.

    They have simply failed, either by design or negligence, to give him any motivation that elevates him past genocidal, emo little bitca.
    In the story you are retelling to yourself - they ideed failed to do all of the above. But since the actual story is very much more aspected and differrent from what you are discussing here , the failure is definitely not as great. My major curiosity in all of this discussion is not failing to see your PoV though - it is more my failure to see the need to drag Whistler into explanantion of everything.

    I'm vaguely horrified at the idea
    Eh? Are you? Must be a serious case of cognitive dissonance then.

    Really, Willow's dialogue is too abstract to be meaningful
    What's so abstract or meaningless about saying: 'I see person X who was my mentor in magic, then I look closer and see person Y - but why am I seeing him , he never tought me anything about magic ? ', etc. As far as precognitions go this one is a bit on the more transparent side, methinks. But once again I have no interest in arguing.
    “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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    • #17
      Originally posted by dorotea View Post
      This is entirely your personal and a very narrow ( should I say focused on a miniscularly unimportant detail ?) interpretation of a very complex story. It is entirely your prerogative though to stay narrowed and discard the complexity of Whistler as a character. I have no desire to argue. I just find the story your are making up quite boring honestly.
      I'm doing that ridiculous "sticking to the facts presented in the story" thing I do, wherein Whistler offered an entirely sociopathic and, needless to say, insufficient rationalization of what he was trying to accomplish with Twilight, his total ambivalence to the amount of lives that would be lost, and his clear intention to try to do it again.

      In the story you are retelling to yourself - they ideed failed to do all of the above. But since the actual story is very much more aspected and differrent from what you are discussing here , the failure is definitely not as great. My major curiosity in all of this discussion is not failing to see your PoV though - it is more my failure to see the need to drag Whistler into explanantion of everything.
      Which is more to say, "In my failure to accord Whistler sacred cow status for entirely obvious and underwhelming reasons, and instead simply to judge him by his actions and his own words about those actions..."

      Eh? Are you? Must be a serious case of cognitive dissonance then.
      No, I'm saying that I horrified that anybody who doesn't have a serious moral objection to what Whistler was doing that led up to the Seed breaking. The horror is in the idea that anybody could seriously think he only started having a warped or skewed moral perspective after the Seed, because they are implicitly endorsing what he was doing in Season 8, which is morally indefensible.

      What's so abstract or meaningless about saying: 'I see person X who was my mentor in magic, then I look closer and see person Y - but why am I seeing him , he never tought me anything about magic ? ', etc. As far as precognitions go this one is a bit on the more transparent side, methinks. But once again I have no interest in arguing.
      We don't know the nature or character of her mistake. We don't even technically know that it was a mistake, although is seems likely. We don't know the nature and character of the experience that this gem is showing her (I made a similar point about people jumping to conclusions about the black birds before we knew what they were).
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      • #18
        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        Which is more to say, "In my failure to accord Whistler sacred cow status for entirely obvious and underwhelming reasons, and instead simply to judge him by his actions and his own words about those actions..."
        Exactly. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice that there's only one particular subgroup of fans hell-bent on liking and defending Whistler no matter what. And the reasons why are, well, fairly transparent. Should it not have been for the significant role he played in a certain ship, and the (twisted) affection he has for a certain character, I doubt anybody would be trying to defend this guy and his plans to massacre billions of people. Whistler's the bad guy.

        ***

        The preview pages were OK. I actually wondered for a moment if the line about cancer wasn't a reference to Dawn and why she is ill. I thought it was maybe the same bird that had touched Willow and it was rambling about some residual afterthoughts from the vision of the Scoobies she'd had earlier. It's pretty doubtful but it was the first thing that crossed my mind when I skimmed the pages.

        I think it's possible that the dark empty place is both a vision of the future and symbolic of what Willow is feeling (or will become).
        Last edited by vampmogs; 20-12-12, 11:35 AM.
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        • #19
          I believe Willow's confusion about Marrak and how he could matter to her was hinted when we see him complain about Willow's lack of focus. I think Marrak poses a different kind of threat...one that may force Willow to re-evaluate her place in Buffy's world.

          We haven't seen any hint whether or not Marrak knows about Buffy...but I'm guessing one reason why the mirror showed her the image of Marrak in the wasteland is that he might prove crucial to helping Willow get through the coming wasteland she's going to go through when she gets back to the world.

          I think Marrak may warn Willow to stay away from Buffy because it's been Willow's reliance on Buffy which has caused her the problems with magic and her place in the world. Marrak's purpose may be to teach Willow to think for herself without depending on Buffy's approval.

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          • #20
            @DorothyFan1, At this point I would assume that Marrak's agenda is purely Willow-centric. Of course he technically knows about Buffy, but he likely does not care. His plan is after all said and done is very simplistic - to make sure that *when* Willow brings magic back he would be the first one to reap the benefits, or somehow if she cannot restore it to all of Terra Firma - to somehow get a piggy-back ride on her power back to Earth with magic in tow looking to steal her power in the process. He has little concerns over what happens to Willow after he gets his juicy chunk of power from her and has absolutely no concerns about her friends - Buffy included. As such, Buffy is an abstract figure to him, the extent of his connection to her is joking about getting caught in Buffy's dream about 'nurses' ( and I guess 'vampires').
            “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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            • #21
              But Dorotea, the preview references Willow talking about her "teach" and although she mentioned Giles it's curious the mirror is showing her Marrak. Willow is puzzled why the mirror was focusing on Marrak when it could have shown her something else entirely. She already is skeptical of Marrak so why would the mirror need to give her anymore reasons to be that way towards him? There may be something about Marrak that may prove very important to Willow.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DorothyFan1;
                Why the mirror was focusing on Marrak when it could have shown her something else entirely. She already is skeptical of Marrak so why would the mirror need to give her anymore reasons to be that way towards him? There may be something about Marrak that may prove very important to Willow.
                I think it was more of the Mirror showing Willow the potentials of following one teacher over another, or the potential of utilizing Marrak's knowledge. The fact that the beast-man appears to be a selfish, treacherous bastard ready to trap an potentially use a terrifying nightmare on somebody, does not mean that he cannot be useful in some way, or prove to be potentially destructive in some way. As such the vision was more of a warning than a gift. Although I don't deny that it feels that Willow is trapped between a hammer of Marrak and a hard place of Saga, who can prove to be equally treacherous but for entirely different reasons.

                In the Big Perspective though, Marrak might be a bastard but he wants magic to return to Earth (mostly for his personal use) and he might be invested enough in making Willow return, while Saga is more than likely invested in stranding Willow in the Nevernever (Wonderland) if it turns out that magic cannot be made to flow back to Earth. To put it blunt, Saga wants her lover to stay with her and might do something to that end. That does not make her a villain per se, but it is the opposite of what Marrak might want.
                “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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                • #23
                  There's something that's puzzling me about the way this mini is going. It's curious that Willow is indeed caught between a rock and a hard place. But the really interesting thing to note is *nothing* that is happening right now is convincing me or even Willow that she can live without magic.

                  If there was some secret plan to get Willow to understand she's capable of being "Willow" without magic...this miniseries is not cutting it. It's re-enforcing the view Willow needs magic. Willow hasn't been given a chance to see someone we know who may have found another way to live *without* magic and still matter in the grand scheme of things.

                  But like Bruce Wayne in The Dark Knight Rises...Willow can't let go of the life she's created in magic. It's what made her who she is as a character. Willow doesn't have the luxury of having a butler like Alfred giving her sound advice like he did for Bruce Wayne in the film. It's possible this Marrak may prove to be the Buffyverse version of Bane, inviting anarchy in the name of some kind of retribution for alleged crimes against humanity. The question now is whether Willow will choose to be Bruce Wayne to save the world with or *without* magic...or become Harvey Dent, the Two Face scarred by bad luck and tragedy.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DorothyFan1 View Post
                    The question now is whether Willow will choose to be Bruce Wayne to save the world with or *without* magic...or become Harvey Dent, the Two Face scarred by bad luck and tragedy.
                    That would only be the question if there was any plot- or character-driven to think that's something that Willow would actually struggle with, wouldn't it? Of course Willow's going to try to save her world. Saving her world is the only reason she's on the damn mission in the first place. And now it's become far more personal with what she saw.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                      That would only be the question if there was any plot- or character-driven to think that's something that Willow would actually struggle with, wouldn't it? Of course Willow's going to try to save her world. Saving her world is the only reason she's on the damn mission in the first place. And now it's become far more personal with what she saw.
                      We don't know if what Willow saw was simply an artifact of the portal closing or if it really was a clue about the seriousness of the problem involving Dawn.

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