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Is s8 just part 2 of s7? Then what is s9.

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  • drlloyd11
    replied
    Looking back on this I think I called it. All the S7 hallmarks are here.
    Ignoring well loved characters...check
    Adding terrible and annoying new characters with the grace of an anvil...check
    Throwing away great potential plot lines..big time...

    Everything has gone bad since the pregnancy was tossed for a dimwitted robot storyline..

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  • sueworld
    replied
    Well If It's any consolation looks like Whedon would agree with you as I think he knows where they went wrong in 8. Now wether he's truly learnt from that experience is still anybodys guess.

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  • Wolfie Gilmore
    replied
    I saw Grave, not as the solution to Buffy's problems, but to Buffy's reinvigorated belief that there might be a way of living with them, maybe... and the hope that springs from that.

    I haven't finished season 8 yet (got narked about the glowy nonsense and the airy fairyness of it all - I love BtVS's embodiedness, the way it plays with the literal and the metaphorical, rather than just diving into the mystical and going all charmed with the shiny magic). But it does sound as though season 9 offers a bit more of the unshiny, so, curious to read it. And, actually, to sit down and read season 8 all teh way through - I think it suffered from having such long waits between installations, leaving too much time to nitpick and not enough story flow.

    For that reason I think I'm going to try and hold off on season 9 til there's at least one collected volume out...and I'm going to go and look that up right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • drlloyd11
    replied
    Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
    I always thought as Buffy as Lieutenant Dan and Willow and the gang as Forrest Gump.
    That is a unique comparison
    Suddenly the image as Willow at a bus stop with candy is trapped in my head

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  • Dipstick
    replied
    Originally posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
    We definitely watched two different shows.

    Because, to be s6's thesis is that "heaven" was a mental ward in a hell dimension where Buffy was later sent by demon's poison in "Normal Again".
    That's a theory which you're entitled to have. However, it's not fact that Buffy's heaven was an asylum and I was always unsure on how that is even supposed to work. The Heaven that the writers were really pimping out for their stories was a other dimensionly heaven of some concept of perfect peace that no one could possibly understand.

    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    IBut, and it's a big but, I find it annoying that the season spent so much time giving credence to the idea that it might have been better for Buffy to be dead than to be alive. That is the premise that I think is getting branded as "anti-life". And I think it is a credible argument, to call that anti-life. Basically they pushed Buffy's fixation on how much being alive several episodes past where I think it could be defended. "Gone" was far enough, her epiphany that she didn't want to die, should have been a bigger turning point than it was.
    That is the thrust of the premise that I objected to- however Gone to Grave is way longer than several eps. It's also that the root of Buffy's unhappiness and which wasn't justified and what was justified was never well-articulated. The show seems to leave us with Buffy thinking that she was supposed to be "finished" like it was a good thing that Buffy died at 20 to get her heavenly reward. The show never gives purchase to the idea that dying at 20 sucks. No matter what the cause of death was- dying at 20 is a ****ing tragedy for the love ones AND the deceased. The show paints it as a heavenly reward and I never see that contradicted.

    Buffy's epiphany in Grave, even if I try to move past how sudden it is and how it's a clinical depression break through that occurs through literal and metaphorical magic, sucks. It's entirely Buffy wanting to live for others- to see Dawn grow up, to see her friends happy. No comment on how Buffy wants to live to find love or to finish college or to eat cookies and cheese or anything on living for herself. It's just another disingenuous way of being a martyr.

    I always thought as Buffy as Lieutenant Dan and Willow and the gang as Forrest Gump. Buffy had a very particular vision of her heroic death and just hated on Willow/the gang for tearing her from that all like Lieutenant Dan. However, Lieutenant Dan really gets that it's better for him to finish out his life as a cripple than die young and at the end, Lieutenant Dan finds a wife and gets a prosthetic and he totally gets that he couldn't do those things if he was six feet under. No such understanding on BtVS in any of the later seasons so far.
    Last edited by Dipstick; 04-02-12, 04:46 AM.

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  • drlloyd11
    replied
    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I'm at a loss. You're sourcing yourself? You facts are self-authenticating? I skimmed a couple of those, but didn't really see any independent confirmation of your version of the putative Return-of-Tara storyline falling through story.

    Oddly enough, when Spike said that line, it was to a room full of people who still weren't entirely sure who he was or what he was talking about. The parallel goes all the way through.
    I love it
    Those posts were from/about me when the show was still on and I used be "into" spoilers.
    I think this is more of a "I was never wrong before, and I had all the dirt about the show when it was on, so why would I be wrong now".
    It sound egotistical, but I am sort of banking on my record rather than tell how I know.

    You don't have to believe me if you don't want. But you know...
    Last edited by drlloyd11; 01-02-12, 12:18 PM. Reason: ..

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  • KingofCretins
    replied
    Originally posted by drlloyd11 View Post
    I'm at a loss. You're sourcing yourself? You facts are self-authenticating? I skimmed a couple of those, but didn't really see any independent confirmation of your version of the putative Return-of-Tara storyline falling through story.

    Oddly enough, when Spike said that line, it was to a room full of people who still weren't entirely sure who he was or what he was talking about. The parallel goes all the way through.

    Leave a comment:


  • drlloyd11
    replied
    Originally posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
    @Dr.Lloyd

    I didn't know details about the contract that Joss had offered to Amber Benson in s7 (the number of episodes, the payment). It's a very interesting information. Where have you got it?

    (I swear, I don't try to undermine your words - I'm genuinely intrigued. I adore Tara and I always welcome any tidbits about her.)

    Thank you in advance!
    sure..
    I am this drlloyd11
    http://www.cise.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/cgiw...?date=20021013
    and this
    http://slayageonline.com/essays/slay...2/Williams.htm


    and this

    http://bb.bbboy.net/dusted-print?forum=20&thread=248

    and
    http://www.spoilerslayer.com/archives/001606.php


    Spike:" I don't like to brag. Who am I kidding? I love to brag. "
    Last edited by drlloyd11; 01-02-12, 01:03 AM. Reason: :)

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  • ubi4soft
    replied
    @Dr.Lloyd I second @Moscow Watcher's thanks in advance for aditional information about Amber's potential involvement in S7.

    All I've got through my google-fu was this quote from TV Guide Online, on October 30, 2002:

    "According to series creator Joss Whedon, Benson — who was slated to be brought back to life as a different character — failed to reach a deal with producer 20th Century Fox.

    "It was a question of negotiations, as it sometimes is," he tells TV Guide Online. "It's sad, because I love Amber. But that's between her and Fox." Adds Benson's rep: "She's very proud of her work on the show, but ultimately, we couldn't work out the right deal."

    Leave a comment:


  • Moscow Watcher
    replied
    @Dr.Lloyd

    I didn't know details about the contract that Joss had offered to Amber Benson in s7 (the number of episodes, the payment). It's a very interesting information. Where have you got it?

    (I swear, I don't try to undermine your words - I'm genuinely intrigued. I adore Tara and I always welcome any tidbits about her.)

    Thank you in advance!

    Leave a comment:


  • drlloyd11
    replied
    Originally posted by Moscow Watcher View Post





    1)$10 mln.'s not enough. You have to cough up about $50 mln. at least.

    2) Do you khow the mantra: "Be careful what you ask for - because Joss may give it to you."

    3) http://movies.ign.com/articles/425/425492p9.html
    Back when I cared about spoilers I looked long and hard for the back story on this one. It took years, but I found it 3 years ago.
    I don't want to get into to many details, but in the end it was a mistake Joss made in dealing with the actress. She didn't want to appear only as evil, because it would hurt her (really adoring) fans until there was some turn-about. He did suggest what he said what he would do (bring her back), but only came up with a 2 episode contract(both as the first) with the promise of an addtional 4 "maybe".
    So she had either
    1)a guaranteed chance to go to england and make "Ghosts of Albion" and start her career as a writer on one hand.
    2)A vague offer on the other from someone who had not been very honest with talent in the past to do something which would only payoff if he kept his word at the same pay from before (she was by far the lowest paid cast member, less than half of what the next lowest was paid) IF she did something that she felt would hurt her fanbase (I personally saw an elderly lesbian couple drive 1000+ miles just to thank her to her face for playing Tara) and probably not help her in very much the long run on the other.


    I think "Conversations" would have been a fourth "great" episode (with Hush, OMWF, and The Body) in the show if she had been in it, instead it was good but not nearly what it could have been. Had they capped S7 with Tara's return it would have added a lot to the ending and made for a better feel.
    But the opportunity was lost (Joss was so involved in Firefly at this point he left alot of Buffy stuff to Marti Noxon,et al) and that was it.
    I think with a tiny bit more focus on his part it would have made happened.
    I wish Joss had waited one more year for Firefly. He could have got a better deal and not ended up on the Fox time slot of death and would have had all that the good press from the end of Buffy to start with. We might have been talking about season 7 of Firefly by now and his wall of GLAAD awards but some gambles don't pay off.
    for want of a nail..
    Last edited by drlloyd11; 31-01-12, 10:57 AM. Reason: Can't spell

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  • Moscow Watcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
    Fine and I will because I hate Season 6. However, S6's thesis is that heaven is the place of perfect peace and contentment and earth is the hell that we all have to contend with because we're here. And moreover, that in an ideal world, Buffy would be dead and still in heaven.
    We definitely watched two different shows.

    Because, to be s6's thesis is that "heaven" was a mental ward in a hell dimension where Buffy was later sent by demon's poison in "Normal Again".

    DOCTOR: Last summer, when you had a momentary awakening, it was them that pulled you back in.
    drlloyd11
    There, that's my ten million dollar challenge for Joss, rewrite s6 and show me the lost "Tara returns" script for the end of s7 and I will finance Serenity 2.
    1)$10 mln.'s not enough. You have to cough up about $50 mln. at least.

    2) Do you khow the mantra: "Be careful what you ask for - because Joss may give it to you."

    3) http://movies.ign.com/articles/425/425492p9.html

    WHEDON: Amber didn't want to do it. She wanted to do other things. I had a whole – I used to tell people, "Here's what we're going to do. We're going to have her in a couple of flashbacks, keep her alive, and then at the end ..." I had a whole show figured out that ended with the return of Tara. I used to cry every time I pitched it. It was going to be Tara's her one true love, people are going to be blown away, they'll never see it coming – except on the Internet – and it's going to be just about the biggest thing. Quite frankly, Amber just didn't want to do it – which is her decision. I was like, "Okay, the thing where I cried, and we all cried, and I told you about? That's gone. So, instead, we're going to go out and find somebody really hot, and we're going to make this about moving on, because that's the only option we have. I don't want Willow stuck in typical gay celibacy on TV. I'm interested in where her heart will go once she's lost her true love, so let's do that instead." So, you know, hence Kennedy.
    Last edited by Moscow Watcher; 30-01-12, 05:03 PM.

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  • KingofCretins
    replied
    If they had been taking a "go out on top" approach to the series, I'd say that "Graduation" (Happy!) or "The Gift" (sad!) would have been the only contenders. "Chosen" would be a distant third. Hell, "Grave" might have been better to end on than "Chosen", and both of those are in a distant fight for third (and to be clear, while "best finale" is partially a commentary on what comes after it, it's more about how it represents a culmination or completion of a story leading up to it).

    EDIT: I don't they are surprised at all that fans want the comic to reflect the show. I think they are surprised at what passes for "reflective" in the eyes of the audience, though. I think they profoundly underestimated how a half decade + of the series existing only in the audience's imagination, as a filter for academic study (and scholarly papers in the context of a TV show are almost always at some level a form of projection -- the writer picks the show as an example and then (pace "Inception") fills it with their own subconscious until it makes the point they want to make), and as fan fic and discussion fodder, sheered away the once more or less real time connection between author and audience.
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 30-01-12, 04:33 PM.

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  • sueworld
    replied
    I always find it weird and somewhat amusing that Allie and Whedon seemed genuinely surprised that fans actually wanted the comic to reflect more the feel of the show then what we actually got in season 8. I mean what did they think we were buying it for?

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  • Stoney
    replied
    I honestly thought that BtVS just got better with each season. The disruption of handing Spike over to be molded into what was needed for Angel and get caught in with IDW was a shame but it is what it is. The comic lost the plot as Joss has said in S8 and they are having to pull the feel of the title back closer to the feel of the show. I don't see too heavy a correlation between the comics and previous seasons and don't think we are heading backwards.

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